(PF) Bardtastic! Finishing a character - Magic

[Silus]

So yeah, I've been working on this character for ~a month or so in prep for three Pathfinder Society games in April at a Con. I though I had the thing finished then I realized I've not picked out spells.

Now I'm kinda herp-a-derp when it comes to magic. I've played...Two magic users in my gaming career, and one was a Warlock. I'm a bit overwhelmed with the spells for the lvl 0-1 spell slots, so assistance and suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

The theme for the character is a Half-Elf Dawnflower Dervish Bard from Varisia with a very gypsy motif. Stats are 10, 17, 12, 12, 12, 15, Feat taken was Dodge, and I took the Varisian Wanderer and Elven Reflexes traits. I'm bouncing between keeping with the theme of exotic dancing gypsy (half)elf and multi-utility spells.

[Bhaakon]

Well, Detect and Read Magic should be written in ink on any spell list, so that's 2 down. You're going to want a light source even with low-light vision, and Dancing Lights is more useful than Light. Finally, Prestidigitation is a perennial crowd pleaser, but I'd do with Ghost Sound.

As for 1st level spells, I'd say that Charm Person and Hideous Laughter give you nice in and out of combat utility and (I think) support your concept. As long as you're facing humanoids, anyway.

There are more good choices than spell slots, though, so there are definitely many ways to skin a cat here.

[Silus]

Well, Detect and Read Magic should be written in ink on any spell list, so that's 2 down. You're going to want a light source even with low-light vision, and Dancing Lights is more useful than Light. Finally, Prestidigitation is a perennial crowd pleaser, but I'd do with Ghost Sound.

As for 1st level spells, I'd say that Charm Person and Hideous Laughter give you nice in and out of combat utility and (I think) support your concept. As long as you're facing humanoids, anyway.

There are more good choices than spell slots, though, so there are definitely many ways to skin a cat here.

What's your opinion on Silent Image instead of Hideous Laughter?

Also, for anyone just popping in, Book-O-Spells (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/spell-lists-and-domains/spell-lists---bard).

[Bhaakon]

Silent image is definitely useful, particularly with Ghost Sound. The only reason I'd advise against it is because illusions take some DM cooperation to use effectively, and you're not likely to know your DM ahead of time at a convention game.

[Durinthal]

Sleep is really useful early on; not so much beyond level 5. Charm Person is also great as previously mentioned.

[Silus]

Not gonna lie, kinda wanna take Animate Rope just so I can lynch enemies. Also, who needs ranks in Climb when you can just hold onto the rope and make it go straight up?

Edit: Also, apparently the Dawnflower can combine with the Soundstriker Archetype and the Songhealer. Should I combine the archetypes or no?

[Durinthal]

Sound Striker's replacement for inspire competence isn't all that great, so it's not particularly useful until level 6. If you get that far, though, Weird Words is fantastic as a Dex-based character.

Enhance Healing (Songhealer) is kinda neat for healing wands, but versatile performance is tough to give up if you're going to be talking to people a lot.

I'm actually running a Dawnflower Dervish/Sound Striker in my current campaign; very much a hybrid character at level 6. We have another bard to make up for my lack of support abilities, so I can focus more on being a skirmisher.

If you get up to level 4, the Allegro spell gives you haste while you're performing (i.e. dancing).

[Silus]

Sound Striker's replacement for inspire competence isn't all that great, so it's not particularly useful until level 6. If you get that far, though, Weird Words is fantastic as a Dex-based character.

Enhance Healing (Songhealer) is kinda neat for healing wands, but versatile performance is tough to give up if you're going to be talking to people a lot.

I'm actually running a Dawnflower Dervish/Sound Striker in my current campaign; very much a hybrid character at level 6. We have another bard to make up for my lack of support abilities, so I can focus more on being a skirmisher.

If you get up to level 4, the Allegro spell gives you haste while you're performing (i.e. dancing).

Isn't there some conflict between the Performances though? The Battle Dance starts on a Move Action and the Striker's starts on a Standard. And how would it work anyway? Start a Battle Dance, which counts as a Bardic Performance and open up with the Striker's ability before moving into the Dance itself?

Also, assuming I can survive until lvl 10-11, should I look into getting that Dimensional Dervish spell? It seems like a teleporting Battle Dance to me.

[Durinthal]

Isn't there some conflict between the Performances though? The Battle Dance starts on a Move Action and the Striker's starts on a Standard. And how would it work anyway? Start a Battle Dance, which counts as a Bardic Performance and open up with the Striker's ability before moving into the Dance itself?

It's a poorly-worded ability, so you'll probably have to talk to your DM about the finer details. We decided it basically works how you described: starting the dance as a standard action (instead of move) and using the ability as part of that standard action. Fortitude save DC is the same as the ability it replaces (10 + Cha + 1/2 bard level)

To be honest I haven't figured out what feats to go after beyond Whirlwind Attack (which isn't all that great either). The Dimensional Agility line may not be a bad choice.

[Silus]

It's a poorly-worded ability, so you'll probably have to talk to your DM about the finer details. We decided it basically works how you described: starting the dance as a standard action (instead of move) and using the ability as part of that standard action. Fortitude save DC is the same as the ability it replaces (10 + Cha + 1/2 bard level)

To be honest I haven't figured out what feats to go after beyond Whirlwind Attack (which isn't all that great either). The Dimensional Agility line may not be a bad choice.

Taking a look at the Dimensional Agility line one more time, I don't think i'll be taking those Feats, seeing as the Society Games usually cap at lvl 13 with only the crazy high level games being at the major Cons.

I think I'll make an Evolutionist/Broodmaster Summoner next...

Edit: Also, since I've got pretty good stats in Cha and Dex, think a 1 level dip into Sorcerer might be a half-decent idea? I was thinking a Wildblooded/Crossblooded Sorcerer with Arcane and Karmic bloodlines (Arcane 'cause I REALLY want a familiar and Karmic for this little gem)

Fate’s Retribution (Su): Starting at 1st level, when you are hit by a melee attack, as an immediate action, you can curse the creature that struck you. The target takes a –2 penalty on all attack and damage rolls for 1d4 rounds. A Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 your sorcerer level + your Charisma modifier) negates this effect. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.

[Engine]

Edit: Also, since I've got pretty good stats in Cha and Dex, think a 1 level dip into Sorcerer might be a half-decent idea? I was thinking a Wildblooded/Crossblooded Sorcerer with Arcane and Karmic bloodlines (Arcane 'cause I REALLY want a familiar and Karmic for this little gem)

I wouldn't dip in Sorcerer, you would just nerf your spellcasting and your combat abilities. Stay Bard, if you want a Familiar grab Eldritch Heritage for the Arcane Bloodline, half-elves have Skill Focus as a racial trait, choose a Knowledge so you could qualify for that feat. Good, now you have a Familiar!

First level spells?
Hm, definitely Grease. I love Grease. Cast it on a warrior's weapon and she would have a hard time trying to keep it in her hands. Cast it on the ground and you could protect your flank, or set up a tactical retreat. It's a good spell, and it would remain useful for a long time.
Vanish is another good choice. Sure, it's Invisibility for just one round\level, but if you're in trouble it could save your life or give you breathing room to do something without being targeted (casting Grease, maybe?).
Unseen Servant has a lot of utility. Like, you know, casting Grease on a warrior's weapon and when she drops it ordering your servant to drag it away so she couldn't take it.

[Marlowe]

Grease will never get old. It'll even mess up a Golem.

Do NOT take sleep. The casting time very much messes it up.

[Corlindale]

The unique Bard spells in PF are pretty nice too.

Timely Inspiration (lvl1) and especially Gallant Inspiration (lvl 2) can be very useful as immediate action spells that can turn narrow misses into hits in combat.

Saving Finale (lvl 1) is very useful for a regular bard with bardic performance - but since Battle Dance is counted as performance with respect to other abilities, I think you should still be able to at least use Saving Finale on yourself to get to reroll crucial saves.
It ends your performance, though, but you can usually just start it again next turn (or take Lingering Performance so you don't need to worry about it). Beats being stunned/paralyzed/nauseated, in any case :smallsmile:

Moment of Greatness can be fun if you or others in your party likes to give out sizeable morale bonuses.

[Silus]

I wouldn't dip in Sorcerer, you would just nerf your spellcasting and your combat abilities. Stay Bard, if you want a Familiar grab Eldritch Heritage for the Arcane Bloodline, half-elves have Skill Focus as a racial trait, choose a Knowledge so you could qualify for that feat. Good, now you have a Familiar!

First level spells?
Hm, definitely Grease. I love Grease. Cast it on a warrior's weapon and she would have a hard time trying to keep it in her hands. Cast it on the ground and you could protect your flank, or set up a tactical retreat. It's a good spell, and it would remain useful for a long time.
Vanish is another good choice. Sure, it's Invisibility for just one round\level, but if you're in trouble it could save your life or give you breathing room to do something without being targeted (casting Grease, maybe?).
Unseen Servant has a lot of utility. Like, you know, casting Grease on a warrior's weapon and when she drops it ordering your servant to drag it away so she couldn't take it.

Typed this up during the forum backup ;_;

Yeah, I think I'll skip the Eldritch Heritage feat this time around. Wanted to take it up to Improved Familiar and get me something nifty. Oh well, I suppose I'll have to settle for Leadership instead.

I decided to take Charm Person and Sleep at lvl 1. I'll switch out Sleep at lvl 5 for something else when it stops being useful. Silent Image and Grease later down the line I think.

Also, feat question: If I have Battle Dance, do I really need to take Spring Attack or Whirlwind Attack? Whirlwind seems a bit...counterproductive to the Dervish play style. 'Cause if I can ditch those, I'm gonna go with Wind Stance for the 20% Concealment vs Ranged when moving.

[Durinthal]

Grease will never get old. It'll even mess up a Golem.

Do NOT take sleep. The casting time very much messes it up.

Grease is good, yes. I forgot about Sleep's casting time, but I've found enough out-of-combat uses for it that it's not an issue (though that's probably specific to my campaign).


If I have Battle Dance, do I really need to take Spring Attack or Whirlwind Attack? Whirlwind seems a bit...counterproductive to the Dervish play style.
You're right in that Whirlwind Attack isn't the best fit, but Spring Attack is useful as a hit-and-run tactic that feels more in like with the skirmisher idea. Unfortunately, you lose a lot of power since you only get a single attack from it and Vital Strike doesn't apply.

As I mentioned earlier, I'm at a loss for what feats to take for my own character. That's about all I could think of for a 1H Dex-based scimitar wielder, so honestly I could use the help too.

[Marlowe]

Bards can get Expeditious Retreat (I think:smallconfused:), which would make spring attack awfully fun.

While you lose the ability to make a full attack making hit-and-runs like this, you also avoid letting the enemy make full attacks on YOU. Standing there and letting an Orc Barbarian with a Greataxe whale three times on you with your d6 hit dice and mail shirt is not a good exchange for you plinking him twice with your scimitar. You're too pretty for that sort of thing and Fighters have got to find something they can do.

With Spring attack you can also bounce/tumble around and threaten archers and casters after you've done your attack. A reach weapon will help. It's dangerous but it's an option you wouldn't otherwise have. Its more difficult to quantify situational position advantages in a format like this than it is statistical ones.

As to spells; I must find that "save or lose" spells like Charm Person, Hold Person and the like look nice and come highly recommended. However, most times I try them myself the result is just a passed save. Meaning the action (and the spell slot) was completely wasted. Because of this I tend to favour
things that have lasting effects (a spell like Grease lingers and will keep effecting the combat even if they pass the first save), things that effect me or my companions, or if in real doubt just stuff that does damage. You should be very careful that using a "save or lose" spell on an enemy doesn't become a "if he saves I'm screwed" situation for you.

Of course, if you think you're in a desperate situation no matter what, go right ahead.

And ignore my signature! Bard/Sorceror is a silly build. Both classes take a while to get beyond level 1 casting and multiclassing them just makes it worse. You'd lose BAB, reflex saves, hit points, skill points and have to deal with Spell Failure on the sorceror spells. You could rely on Mage armour, but that means for one or even two levels of Sorc. you would get only one other level 1 spell. I like Ray of Enfeeblement too, but is it worth essentially wasting a level to get?

Oh, I take it you have something to make a scimitar finessable?