What exactly does it take to make a Ranger 'Tier 3'

[ngilop]

I already give rangers their animal companions at 1st level ( i swapped druids and Rangers Animal companion)

also ive bumped up the favored enemy abilities giving a +1 bonus increasing by +1 every 4th level for the first one, at 10th level every attack you make again your first Favored enemy threatens a critical.

What exactly does it take to bump rangers up?

I am thinking of incorporating the Horizon walker Terrain masteries at certain levels

as well as giving them short term elemental damage self-buffs, lasting X per level.

I feel that their skill selection and skill points are great as they are currently

[NNescio]

I already give rangers their animal companions at 1st level ( i swapped druids and Rangers Animal companion)

also ive bumped up the favored enemy abilities giving a +1 bonus increasing by +1 every 4th level for the first one, at 10th level every attack you make again your first Favored enemy threatens a critical.

What exactly does it take to bump rangers up?

I am thinking of incorporating the Horizon walker Terrain masteries at certain levels

as well as giving them short term elemental damage self-buffs, lasting X per level.

I feel that their skill selection and skill points are great as they are currently

Take the Wildshape Ranger ACF from Unearthed Arcana (also available on the SRD). Boom, Tier 3. Wildshape is that flexible, even if it's nerfed when compared with a Druid's.

Alternatively, take levels in Scout and get the Swift Hunter feat. This functionally gestalts the Ranger with the Scout, at least for the more important parts (Skirmishing and Favored Enemy), if you're trying to deal damage. This is also considered to be Tier 3 by some people.

[Harry]

Take the Wildshape Ranger ACF from Unearthed Arcana (also available on the SRD). Boom, Tier 3.

Alternatively, take levels in Scout and get the Swift Hunter feat. This functionally gestalts the Ranger with the Scout, at least for the more important parts (Skirmishing and Favored Enemy), if you're trying to deal damage. This is also considered to be Tier 3 by some people.

What he said:smallbiggrin:

[Feralventas]

The above sound like fine options. I'd suggest your own alterations as they are in the 1st post, +switching the Ranger's spell progression with the Bard's, grabbing the 5th and 6th level spells from the druid's spell list.

[HunterOfJello]

Versatility + Effectiveness.


This is usually solved by Wildshaping Rangers or Mysticizing Rangers.

~

Going the Swift Hunter route would boost up a Ranger's effectiveness so that they'd be able to keep up with lots of T3 classes. Adding in Mystic or Wildshape Ranger ACFs to that (if you can, i don't remember) would seel the deal.

[gallagher]

if you want to adjust the ranger in ways similar to what you are doing, why not give him a bards spell progression and give him a list for 5th and 6th off of the druid/cleric lists.

keep animal companion at what it is, the 6th level spell progression would help that much, and give you access to more prestige classes because of your faster spell progression.

[Coidzor]

Giving them 0th and 5th level spells and spells per day along the lines of the Mystic Ranger (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872054/Alternative_Class_Features_III?pg=6) while progressing their spell levels known along the lines of the Bard should do it when coupled with the changes you've already made.

[SiegeDracomon]

At that point you might as well just play a druid.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

The above sound like fine options. I'd suggest your own alterations as they are in the 1st post, +switching the Ranger's spell progression with the Bard's, grabbing the 5th and 6th level spells from the druid's spell list.

This. The 2nd edition ranger got wizard spellcasting, so you have precedent there. If a ranger gained spells from the wizard spell list and had the ability to cast in light armor, then you could have some interesting things happen.

[Coidzor]

^: Sword of the Arcane Order is a pretty sweet feat, yeah. Main problem with Mystic Rangers is that sword of the arcane order makes them lightning warrior lite from level 6-10 and fairly nifty afterwards as well, say, lightning warrior doublelite. Switch over to Bardic speed of progressing through spell levels and you've got much less of an issue there. Pretty solid gish, really.


At that point you might as well just play a druid.

No, not really. For one thing Druids are T1.

[ngilop]

I semi-have to agree with seige dragon here.

what I definitely want to stay away form is turning the ranger into 'druid lite, just 1 calorie of druid'


I guess that I posed my question wrong. I don't mean 'what can you give the ranger' I mean
what is the ranger missing that could put him at 'tier 3'?

[Morph Bark]

The Ranger is good at either TWF or ranged combat and has pretty good skills. Thing is, skills aren't worth much in the big picture of class power, not unless you give the class stuff to do with it. That's why there's Track for one, or Trapfinding (which Rangers can get as an ACF by trading Track for it). More versatility is the key as well, hence why Mystic Ranger ups the ante as well, by adding level 0 and 5 spells to his list and changing his progression a little. This is also why many people take the Sword of the Arcane Order feat to go with Mystic Ranger: it further increases his versatility, by a lot.

[Big Fau]

Adding in Mystic or Wildshape Ranger ACFs to that (if you can, i don't remember) would seel the deal.

You mean "seal", right?



what is the ranger missing that could put him at 'tier 3'?

Duskblade spell progression, and either the Wildshape ACF (UA) or the Druid's Shapeshift ACF (PH2). More combat styles would be nice too, but it isn't a requirement.


Alternatively, finding the Falling Star discipline that Tempest Stormwind did a few years ago and giving the Ranger a maneuver progression would do the trick. Or possibly combining this with the Shapeshift ACF.

[PoorHobo]

This. The 2nd edition ranger got wizard spellcasting, so you have precedent there. If a ranger gained spells from the wizard spell list and had the ability to cast in light armor, then you could have some interesting things happen.

Minor nitpick. The 2e ranger gets priest spells from the plant and animal spheres, not wizard spells. I believe the 1e ranger gets wizard spells but don't have any of the material to confirm.

[ngilop]

I have no use for the falling star disciplne honestly as I felt the whole melee atacks only rules for maneuvers was bull to begin with.

would a small maneuver progression make the ranger into tier 3?

[Big Fau]

would a small maneuver progression make the ranger into tier 3?

Swapping out the spells and animal companion for the Warblade's progression, and then giving them Desert Wind, Tiger Claw, Stone Dragon, and one other discipline would do wonderfully.

[Coidzor]

I guess that I posed my question wrong. I don't mean 'what can you give the ranger' I mean

And several proposals have been given to you, even under the "new" criteria.

Some further food for thought. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236469)

[PoorHobo]

Well, what is Tier 3? "Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area."

The Ranger has a smattering of abilities, but not outstanding in any of them. Casting, animal companion, combat style, favored enemy. With all these the ranger is bound to have something useful to do. The problem is, the ranger doesn't have a specialty. Not as good as fighting as the fighter, nor good as casting as the druid, the animal companion lags behind and even the favored enemy isn't as good as greater weapon focus.

To bring it up to Tier 3 I think you would be looking to seriously ramp up one of those abilities, anyone of them. It needs to do something really well, right now, it doesn't. And whatever you ramp up is largely going to be whatever you consider the iconic ability of the class. If you give casting or animal companion a boost it runs into that Druid Lite problem you were talking about so Its really about making those combat styles or favored enemy abilities shine.

[Coidzor]

It's already druid lite casting. Making it vaguely relevant is not some kind of sin.

[Godskook]

This is also considered to be Tier 3 by some people.

What you're looking at is tier 4 + tier 4 + damage, and that's not justification for a tier bump.

[Coidzor]

What you're looking at is tier 4 + tier 4 + damage, and that's not justification for a tier bump.

Definitely helps make favored enemy and the archery combat style work a lot better though, so while not T3 in and of itself, I'd say that it definitely would help put them closer to T3 along with other fixes. Has the problem of not really having any synergy with most other combat styles or most wildshape forms though.

[ngilop]

Ok for me THE iconic abilities of a ranger are the animal companion, combat styles (with a better focus on archery IMO) and the favored enemy stuff

I already gave Rangers the druid animal componaion progression ( start at 1st and then go up from there) as well as dotted throughout the class thre be ing random buffs to ones companion

I made the favored enemy stuff give higher, better and more uselful attibutes. at 20th level you get a +5 to attack, damage, AC, saves, knowledge, intimidate, sense motive, listen, survival, every attack you make threatens a critical ( even if the being is normally immune to criticals), can render enemies shaken, and well I think that is it right now

the one thing that I do not have a good grasp on is how to improve the combat styles. I do not want a ton of combat styls like PF gave rangers, i want them to stick with the whole Archer or dual wielder ( i did combine imp 2-weapon fighting and 2-weapon rend into the same feat except teh damage is 1d6+1per BaB.

What would it take to make the combat styles a way to shine?

[Hecuba]

Minor nitpick. The 2e ranger gets priest spells from the plant and animal spheres, not wizard spells. I believe the 1e ranger gets wizard spells but don't have any of the material to confirm.

1e rangers got 1st-2nd level magic user spells and 1st-3rd level druid spells. Started somewhere around level 7 or 8, IIRC.

[gomipile]

Also, giving Rangers a better spell progression does not make them "druid lite" since the Ranger spell list has plenty of neat stuff to itself that druids don't get. Special mention goes to ranger-only ranged combat and tracking spells.

[Tvtyrant]

I always liked the idea of combining the Ranger and the Paladin, and then give them a 5 level spell list. The 5th level would get them a lot of both the cleric and druid lists, so they have more variety than other classes at that spell level. Rather than having a set list of abilities, you can pick at each level from either the Ranger or Paladin abilities.

[gomipile]

I always liked the idea of combining the Ranger and the Paladin, and then give them a 5 level spell list. The 5th level would get them a lot of both the cleric and druid lists, so they have more variety than other classes at that spell level. Rather than having a set list of abilities, you can pick at each level from either the Ranger or Paladin abilities.

Combine that with 9 Pathfinder style archetypes (one for each possible alignment) to make them "Paladiny" and another one or a few nature-focused "Rangery" archetypes, and you might have something there.

[NeoSeraphi]

Giving the ranger's Favored Enemy bonus to Intimidate doesn't really help too much. The ranger doesn't really need Charisma and Intimidate isn't a class skill, so you're looking at 1d20+5-6 at level 20, or 1d20+16-17 if you're willing to put maximum ranks in a cross-class skill. It softens the gap of not having it as a class skill, but it doesn't even completely bridge it, so a fighter will still be better at it than a ranger (even against the ranger's Favored Enemies).

Tier 3 is not about combat prowess. The barbarian is tier 4 and the barbarian can easily put out more damage per round than a bard or a beguiler. Tier 3 is about versatility, which means able to do well both in combat and out. For this, you need skills and you need abilities that give you a niche outside of combat.

Wild Shape is good for this, since it lets you fly, swim, climb, scout, and completely blend in to most surroundings, which gives you stealth as well. Tracking is only as good as the DM allows it to be, so that's not a reliable way of determining whether the ranger is useful out of combat. Same with Wild Empathy.

Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight are better examples of strong and flavorful abilities that assist the ranger both in and out of combat, but they are too widespread and too few to really push the ranger up out of tier 4.

Flight, movement bonuses, more skill points and more Charisma skills, better spellcasting, etc. These are ways you can make the ranger tier 3. If you just want to make the ranger a stronger combatant, that's a different question entirely.