Incarnum at Epic Levels

[Essence_of_War]

Has anyone looked into this before? My google-fu has not been very useful, and I poked through the usual suspects: Incarnum Handbooks (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=551.0), Shneekey's Reference (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215723) and some others to no avail.

Obviously both the Totemist and Incarnate both look pretty poor compared to tier 1/2 casters running amok with Epic Spellcasting, but in a party of tier 3s,4s, and 5s w/ no Epic Spellcasting on the table, would they be able to remain relevant?

[AmberVael]

I have, in fact, played an epic incarnate. (Epic gestalt, actually).

In my experience, it was pretty awful. Luckily, it was gestalt, and my other side was psion, allowing me to make up for it... but the incarnate side was really not pulling its weight at all.

At the point of epic, almost everything incarnum can do can be duplicated by magic items. Lots of bonuses? Check. Immunities? Double check. What's worse, the damage melds have been drastically outpaced by now, the save based melds have laughable DCs, and oh, did I mention magic items? Because you'll have a ton of those now... and also more binds, and more soulmelds. Epic wealth and epic incarnum do not mesh well, especially as the former eclipses the latter in basically every way.

Also, the amount of essentia you can invest is just plain sad. It doesn't really increase at all once you hit epic.

You may have more luck with Totemist though, as tons of natural attacks is hard to make completely irrelevant, and they get some other cool options. Still though... the incarnum classes definitely have a lot of lag in epic.

[Essence_of_War]

Whoa whoa whoa, I guess I missed that, but seriously? Investable essentia doesn't increase after 20th???

[AmberVael]

Well... in theory it does.

It's just that it only increases to 5 at level 31, and by another 1 every 10 levels. :smallannoyed:

[Essence_of_War]

That is, in a word, insane. How could they possibly believe that capacity of +4 over 20 levels is fine, but at epic 1/10 is fine.

So there is a small halo around 20th level or so where they remain useful, and very rapidly fall off from there.

Good to know, thanks!

[Big Fau]

That is, in a word, insane. How could they possibly believe that capacity of +4 over 20 levels is fine, but at epic 1/10 is fine.

So there is a small halo around 20th level or so where they remain useful, and very rapidly fall off from there.

Good to know, thanks!

The investment cap for 20 levels is 8 (4 base+2 class+1 feat+1 item) unless you are a Soulborn or don't have levels in Totemist/Incarnate.

Truthfully, I think noncasters in general have no place in Epic campaigns because they don't scale efficiently, but Incarnum has it pretty bad. No new soulmelds, no actual PrC support, no class features that scale that far (Incarnum Radiance is it), and everything in Epic has SR (which meldshapers have a problem overcoming depending on the Soulmelds being used).

If there were Epic-level support for the system (beyond the basic book), Incarnum would be better off. Hell, there are Magical Beasts in the Epic levels, and numerous others that weren't even mentioned in the MoI, how hard could it be to come up with new Epic Soulmelds.



As for the lack of handbook mentions, optimizers in general try to steer towards casters in the Epic levels, as they are the only things capable of standing up to most encounters (even in an AMF or similar effect). Epic monsters are poorly designed, Epic spellcasting is god-awful, and Epic noncasters are made of paper mache. Incarnum is no exception, especially because Soulmelds are dispel-vulnerable.

[Essence_of_War]

The investment cap for 20 levels is 8 (4 base+2 class+1 feat+1 item) unless you are a Soulborn or don't have levels in Totemist/Incarnate.

I know, I know. I was just trying to point out that it doesn't even scale at the HD based rate, much less than the inclusive rate. :smalltongue:

[Particle_Man]

Maybe this is why Azurin were given short life spans. :smallbiggrin:

[Person_Man]

I've only played at Epic levels a couple of times, and it was years ago. My general opinion is that nothing works in Epic. Epic magic is so powerful that it ends combat in one turn, and everyone else is a joke by comparison.

Having said that, it's worth noting that you can open your Heart and Soul chakras with Epic level feats. So while I'd never play an Incarnate or Totemist 20, I might take the Shape Soulmeld and Open Chakra feat to get continuous True Seeing or the Swarm template or whatnot.

[Particle_Man]

So Linear Incarnate, Quadratic Mage? :smallsmile:

[Big Fau]

So Linear Incarnate, Quadratic Mage? :smallsmile:

If Epic noncasters are a sheet of paper, the Epic Bard is a d6, and the full casters are 15d1000.

[Particle_Man]

If you removed all the epic spellcasters, do epic rules work in general or is it then just "monster appears and you all die LOL". I am wondering if the problem at epic is not with the incarnate but with the spellcasters.

[The Glyphstone]

No, the numbers fall apart for just about everyone.

[AmberVael]

No, the numbers fall apart for just about everyone.

Yeah, pretty much this.

Still, if you have a good DM and a cooperative group, you can keep numbers in hand. Takes some work, but you can play epic, and it can be a very enjoyable experience.