Is a Paladin of Freedom Still Tier 5?

[Palanan]

My apologies if this is an incredibly naive question. Even though I've been playing 3.5 almost continually since it came out, I've never once been in a group that had a paladin. I've read the basics in the PHB, but I have only the vaguest notion of how they handle in the game.

Now I have a prospective player who wants to run a dwarven paladin of freedom. This would actually be a good fit for the party, which is not especially high-op; so far we have a ranger, a druid, and a fighter. I don't see any problems with the paladin concept...but then, I have zero experience with paladins.

So I put it to the Playground: is there anything to worry about here?

[Dumbledore lives]

Given the rest of your party I'd say watch out for the Druid, with any decent optimization experience the rest of the party will be outshone by his companion. Otherwise it seems like you already have 2 meleeish characters, so I'm not sure how much a paladin will help.

An arcane caster of some sort might be useful, and if the player wants to play a fighter type class you could offer up the duskblade as a substitute. Just call it a paladin and you'll be a fine. If he is dead set on playing a paladin make sure he picks up battle blessing from complete champion, and look through ACFs to make sure you get exactly the paladin you want, because with the right choices a paladin might even be tier 4, maybe.

[deuxhero]

Just Paladin of Freedom? Yes. Compulsion effects are much wider than fear, and it includes magic induced fear (though that isn't the main source), but not enough to bring it up a tier. Not terribly out of place given 2/3 of the party though (Druid though...).

Add ACFs like Charging Smite (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebed/20070730), and Mystic Fire Knight (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20051104a) (+ Sword of the Arcane Order) and as a DM rule their casting is based on charisma (instead of Wisdom) and you can bump it up to tier 4 easily.

Charisma loss could be a pain for him, let him take a charisma hit instead per a Desert Dwarf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertDwarves).

[Randomguy]

Paladin of freedom of freedom is essentially the same as a standard paladin. They might be a tiny bit stronger, since compulsion effects are a bit more common than fear effects, but that's not a big enough difference to warrant a change in tier.


The druid might overshadow some of the other characters a bit. Ask the player if they'd be willing to take an ACF that modifies wildshape or animal companion, or something. It's only really a concern if the player intends to unleash maximum bear as soon as they get wildshape.

[Soranar]

Unlike other paladins, a paladin of freedom can dip Lion totem Barbarian for pounce.

If only for that is really simplifies the build (instead of taking travel devotion or something like it).

If you do dip something else though, you might want to consider dropping wisdom and trading spellcasting for extra feats (complete champion ACF)

[Palanan]

Battle Blessing was the first thing the player asked for. :smalltongue:

Sword of the Arcane Order was something that occurred to me, although I'll see what else the player comes up with. As for meleeishness, the fighter is actually going to be an archer (or at least we're giving it a try) so the paladin might come in handy.

And thanks for the suggestions on the ACFs, I'll take a look at those. Since the campaign will have a strong nautical aspect, the paladin will almost certainly be swapping out his mount for something more suited to shipboard life.

[Red_Dog]

The 2 GREATEST advantages of a Pal of Freedom are=>

=>Immunity to compulsion at lvl3. This is HUGE. This means no more being dominated, charmed, suggested, and etc. by anyone. This is frankly so outstanding this alone makes him best t4 there is.

=>Second Smallest(after Tyranny) stick lodged up his ahmmm. He is the least restricted in his actions and motives. Ergo, he can do most things but say help slavers (he can even do that if its part of lying to them to free the slaves later) and enslaving someone himself. This also means a way for a more laid-back personality than most characters in the party bar CN and TN.

I say, (bar the dwarf idea... they kind like being lawful as far as I recall) totally do it! I would still multiclass in something (fighter for some feats? Barbarian for some ACF frenzy goodness?) or at least PrC into something[not sure into what though? something with some class features preferably as starting lvl 6 you will run dry on those].

Remember, you got fullBAB so you can ubbercharge like no-one's business. You can get divine feats to add Cha to dmg if you want to say duel-wield? You can be effective at range as well (though bows are feat hungry) or be a tripper.
You just can't do all of these at once though...


*A fun idea could be Fey themed and go with Killoren, or multiclass with a fey themed Warlock*

P.S. Don't forget to grab ACF [from Complete Mage I think] => Cursebreaker. Sooo much better than remove disease!

Good Luck and haz fun! ^^

[Hiro Protagonest]

Since the campaign will have a strong nautical aspect, the paladin will almost certainly be swapping out his mount for something more suited to shipboard life.

Do you mean something like an aquatic mount, or just using an ACF? Because sharks are valid (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0479.html).

[deuxhero]

Ah - Battle Blessing, forgot that.

As the DM, it's up to you if SotAO spells work with it. Your choice is a big part of how castery he will be.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Jade Dragon
Do you mean something like an aquatic mount, or just using an ACF?

Should be just an ACF, since this won't be an underwater campaign per se. Just a campaign with deep oceans. :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, there will be seafaring and terrestrial exploration in equal measure. A mount would be a real hassle.


Originally Posted by deuxhero
As the DM, it's up to you if SotAO spells work with it. Your choice is a big part of how castery he will be.

As it happens, another thread on this just came up (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236844), which Gavinfoxx dealt with rather handily. I'm glad he posted those links, 'cause I need to read them before making any binding decisions. I like the notion of SotAO, just not too clear on details about arcane spell failure, qualifying for theurge PrCs, etc.

[Answerer]

=>Immunity to compulsion at lvl3. This is HUGE. This means no more being dominated, charmed, suggested, and etc. by anyone. This is frankly so outstanding this alone makes him best t4 there is.
It's... really not. First of all, Paladins, of Freedom or otherwise, are Tier 5, not Tier 4. It's better than immunity to fear, granted, but there are so many other things that are still super-dangerous out there. It's a good ability but not anything like what you seem to think it is.

Plus, anything immunity to compulsion covers, immunity to mind-affecting covers. While level 3 is early, there are a fair few ways to get immunity to mind-affecting earlier, and with less effort (Necropolitan being option #1).


=>Second Smallest(after Tyranny) stick lodged up his ahmmm. He is the least restricted in his actions and motives. Ergo, he can do most things but say help slavers (he can even do that if its part of lying to them to free the slaves later) and enslaving someone himself. This also means a way for a more laid-back personality than most characters in the party bar CN and TN.
Your... mileage may vary on that.

Though honestly I think the entire concept of the Paladin Code and falling is a terrible, terrible mechanic and shouldn't have been included in the game to begin with, so whatever.


Remember, you got fullBAB so you can ubbercharge like no-one's business.
Uh... except for the Barbarian, of course... or better, some multiclass'd-like-crazy character. Paladin itself doesn't really offer much unless you take a lot of levels, or just 2 for Divine Grace which... you probably don't need on an ubercharger?

Still, for a mounted ubercharger, yes, a Paladin can do a quite solid job.


You can get divine feats to add Cha to dmg if you want to say duel-wield?
IIRC, the limitations on said Divine Feat are very limiting, though I suppose with a high enough Cha (i.e. lots of Turn Undead) it could be worth it. But that's a ton of feats to get, plus you need super Dex? Isn't the Paladin MAD enough as it is?


You can be effective at range as well (though bows are feat hungry)
Uh what? What about the Paladin is has anything to offer ranged tactics? I mean, OK, assume you take the Ranged Smite ACF (you're an Elf? oh god, I'm so sorry); that's still just "not enough"/day.


or be a tripper.
Well... it's an option, but I'm not really sure what Paladin is bringing to the table here. I mean, Divine Grace is a nice ability, and there're some rather solid Paladin spells later on (go go Battle Blessing), but ultimately there are... a lot of classes that can do this better.


*A fun idea could be Fey themed and go with Killoren, or multiclass with a fey themed Warlock*
Killoren's pretty cool; I suppose it could go well with Paladin of Freedom maybe? I seem to recall it using Cha for things. You could get Charming the Arrow, for a weird ranged Paladin (provided you get the Ranged Smite ACF which Killoren doesn't technically qualify for but a reasonable DM should allow). Of course, I'm not really sure why you'd use Paladin for this; there are better options.

As for the Warlock, don't bother with more than Paladin 2; Divine Grace is the only particularly meaningful thing it will offer. Smite won't work (might with that Ranged Smite ACF; don't feel like looking it up to check), though again a reasonable DM should allow it to, but it doesn't really matter because 1/day is almost-meaningless. Immunity to Compulsions is OK but frankly another lost invocation level just doesn't seem worth it.


P.S. Don't forget to grab ACF [from Complete Mage I think] => Cursebreaker. Sooo much better than remove disease!
Well... almost anything would be...

[Steward]

Your... mileage may vary on that.

Though honestly I think the entire concept of the Paladin Code and falling is a terrible, terrible mechanic and shouldn't have been included in the game to begin with, so whatever.

I feel as though alignment stuff and roleplaying restrictions/guidelines don't really fall under the tier system since they are fairly nebulous and can vary based from table to table. Certainly I don't think removing the Paladin's alignment restriction or even changing it to Chaotic Good or Neutral Good would even come close to bumping it up a tier! The immunity to mind-affecting or compulsion is significantly better, as the OP stated, but it's not that overpowering and if the party already has a druid in it you don't have to worry about the paladin being overpowered even if you grant him access to every ACF and prestige class ever designed for it.

[Answerer]

I don't think the Tier system considered the Code. But it is a terrible system, at least IMO.

[Averis Vol]

on the archer note if you'de rather not be one of those eyeliner wearing forest folk you could always take the ranged smite feat from BoED.

[Red_Dog]

To Answerer=>

=>Being Immune to compulsion

It's better than immunity to fear, granted, but there are so many other things that are still super-dangerous out there.

If the DM considers it "unfair" to mind control players. Than the players might as well wear floaties while having soup. Than the DM might as well remove ALL save-or-die spells out there. If we to assume that mind control is NOT in play, than this ability is useless.

However, almost entire Enchantment school is compulsions.

Having one player that can't under almost[unless someone casted something when he volunteerly slept] any circumstances be magically sawed to do something he does not want is a very powerful asset.

=>Paladin's code.
Tier system is indeed does not include this, but it should... Its true that DM has a final say on how questionable your actions are in the eyes of your deity. But at least you have higher ground to argue from ^^

=>Builds...
General comment. I meant one can pull it off OK-ish, not that Paladin has something to offer. With this in mind=>

Ubber charge builds, while often have strength, don't really need it. Sure it helps, but your BAB does most of the work and aside from Leap Attack that everyone can have, you just need fullBAB. Paladin has charging smite ACF that can help too [stacks with Killoren's Destroyer aspect].
Basically what I am saying here is that anyone with fullBAB can be an ubbercharger. Its just 3to4 feats away really ^^.

**Barbarian is only considered good at charging because of the silly 1st lvl pounce ACF. This does not mean that barbarian has something else to offer besides "novelties". His class features are nice, but they are just that. So besides pounce (that can come in a wand form if savage species are in play, and multiclassing warlock for 4 lvls could help btw ^^) barbarian has nothing that's clearly superior, just different flavor.*
Unless we are talking about FB, and that nutbag is its own class and relates to a barbarian only ever so slightly.**

All other. Yep you are right in saying all that about other ideas. I just said you can pull them off. Doesn't mean Paladin can ever be a better lockdown than crusader, or a better archer than soulbow. Paladin however can do these jobs semi decently since cores of these jobs come in forms of feats.^^

==============================================>

P.S. I think a warlock mix might actually be worth it to be a secondary magic device guy. With high charisma, you can definitively be good at it, and a 4-5lvl warlock dip will give that an enormous edge accompanied by some all day Buffs.

The other way one can spin a paladin would be go "mildly psychic" paladin. Basically taking Power Attack->PsyWeapon->Deep Impact->PsyMeditation to touch attack with full PA every round and illuminate a need to charge. You still won't be as good as pouncers, BUT with a fighter dip you can get Improved Sunder=>Combat Brute to full attack after you power attacked with x3 bonuses.

Anyways hope this helps ^^

[tiercel]

Since the campaign will have a strong nautical aspect, the paladin will almost certainly be swapping out his mount for something more suited to shipboard life.

One obvious choice (esp if your player is planning on staying single-class Paladin) might be to simply take the Charging Smite ACF in PHB II. Lose your mount, but get basically triple smite bonus damage on a charge (and if your charge attack misses, you don't waste your Smite attempt). Couple this with the rhino's rush spell (next charge attack does double damage, SpC) -- for which you don't even need Battle Blessing -- and you've got Uber-charger-Lite, on the cheap.

It won't blow up the entire campaign or anything, but Extra Smiting and pearls of power I start looking really good.

Heck, if it's going to be a shipboard campaign, bull rushing might fit into the build somewhere (blowing bad guys over the rail and into the sea).

[Killer Angel]

The 2 GREATEST advantages of a Pal of Freedom are=>

=>Immunity to compulsion at lvl3. This is HUGE. This means no more being dominated, charmed, suggested, and etc. by anyone. This is frankly so outstanding this alone makes him best t4 there is.

=>Second Smallest(after Tyranny) stick lodged up his ahmmm. He is the least restricted in his actions and motives. Ergo, he can do most things but say help slavers (he can even do that if its part of lying to them to free the slaves later) and enslaving someone himself. This also means a way for a more laid-back personality than most characters in the party bar CN and TN.


And he can multiclass with bard! :smallcool:

[Coidzor]

If the DM considers it "unfair" to mind control players. Than the players might as well wear floaties while having soup. Than the DM might as well remove ALL save-or-die spells out there. If we to assume that mind control is NOT in play, than this ability is useless.


It's more that any time that the player might as well be in another room playing monopoly is a time when the game shows its clunkiness.

It's not good for the table culture or the individual game to have a lot of time where the players aren't doing anything or that the DM is playing by himself.

[Killer Angel]

It's more that any time that the player might as well be in another room playing monopoly is a time when the game shows its clunkiness.

It's not good for the table culture or the individual game to have a lot of time where the players aren't doing anything or that the DM is playing by himself.

While true, it can happen. It's not only a matter of spell choice by the BBEG, you can have many monsters with abilities based on mind control (beholder, and so on).

[Coidzor]

While true, it can happen. It's not only a matter of spell choice by the BBEG, you can have many monsters with abilities based on mind control (beholder, and so on).

I didn't say it couldn't happen. I was pointing out why one could choose to use it sparingly without being some kind of carebear mollycoddler as was being implied.

[Andion Isurand]

I would suggest to the player with the dwarf that he go full cleric (or even cloistered cleric for bonus skills and Knowledge Devotion) ....until he qualifies for 1 to 3 levels of Prestige Paladin (of Freedom).

Then consider offering him the Serenity feat from the Dragon Compendium to make it so all of the Charisma-based paladin abilities become Wisdom-based instead.

Then of course suggest that he can make up the loss of BAB with Divine Power.

================================

Adding 2 levels of Swordsage might also help, allowing him to add his wisdom bonus to his AC while wearing light armor.

The War Domain + the Holy Warrior feat (Complete Champion 60) will add some useful damage, especially if he decides he wants to take Zen Archery feat and go for the ranged damage.

[Dimers]

A little late to join the fun, but I wanted to mention -- buffs like heroism are often compulsion effects, so the immunity improving from fear to charm/compulsion comes with some drawbacks too. (Personally, the thing I like best about that immunity is letting the party wizard and cleric lay down compulsion area effects right on top of you.)

@OP: Yep, still tier 5, but a more pleasant one.

In regards to the half-aquatic campaign, might I suggest crocodile (or giant croc) as a special mount?

[Killer Angel]

I didn't say it couldn't happen. I was pointing out why one could choose to use it sparingly without being some kind of carebear mollycoddler as was being implied.

Then I agree.


A little late to join the fun, but I wanted to mention -- buffs like heroism are often compulsion effects, so the immunity improving from fear to charm/compulsion comes with some drawbacks too.

I may be wrong in this, but I've always saw such immunities as SR: a creature can voluntarily lower it with a standard action.

[Answerer]

If the DM considers it "unfair" to mind control players. Than the players might as well wear floaties while having soup. Than the DM might as well remove ALL save-or-die spells out there. If we to assume that mind control is NOT in play, than this ability is useless.

However, almost entire Enchantment school is compulsions.
Your statement is full of non sequiturs and really has nothing to do with my argument. My argument wasn't that it was useless – my statement was that immunity to mind-affecting in general was much better, and not hard to get if you have a DM who forces you to get it.

I also agree with Coidzor that even sparing use of mind control by the DM is really bad for the game. People not getting to play are bad for fun.


Having one player that can't under almost[unless someone casted something when he volunteerly slept] any circumstances be magically sawed to do something he does not want is a very powerful asset.
That's not what it does. Various [Charm] effects can sway you, without being compulsions. Compulsions are only a subset of Enchantment. A fairly large one, but nonetheless a subset.


Tier system is indeed does not include this, but it should... Its true that DM has a final say on how questionable your actions are in the eyes of your deity. But at least you have higher ground to argue from ^^
Not... really. Or, at least as far as I can tell by WotC's opinions on alignment, that's not intended.

But it's really just a very dumb thing and if your DM plans on even considering your actions in the light of whether or not you fall (barring exceptionally egregious actions that result in a full alignment change, though even then you should merely change to a different sort of Paladin/Blackguard rather than be useless), then I couldn't recommend more strongly against the Paladin altogether. It's yet another thing that is bad for the game.


General comment. I meant one can pull it off OK-ish, not that Paladin has something to offer.
But if the Paladin has nothing to offer, why would you create that build with the Paladin?


Ubber charge builds, while often have strength, don't really need it. Sure it helps, but your BAB does most of the work and aside from Leap Attack that everyone can have, you just need fullBAB. Paladin has charging smite ACF that can help too [stacks with Killoren's Destroyer aspect].
Basically what I am saying here is that anyone with fullBAB can be an ubbercharger. Its just 3to4 feats away really ^^.
Strength gives you 1.5x damage. Ubercharging is all about the multipliers; why would you give up the cheapest multiplier in the game?


**Barbarian is only considered good at charging because of the silly 1st lvl pounce ACF. This does not mean that barbarian has something else to offer besides "novelties". His class features are nice, but they are just that. So besides pounce (that can come in a wand form if savage species are in play, and multiclassing warlock for 4 lvls could help btw ^^) barbarian has nothing that's clearly superior, just different flavor.*
Unless we are talking about FB, and that nutbag is its own class and relates to a barbarian only ever so slightly.**
First, I disagree strenuously at the characterization of Spirit Lion Totem as "silly" – the ability to get Pounce with a relatively low opportunity cost was desperately needed before Complete Champion was printed. The system was massively improved by the printing of Spirit Lion Totem and Travel Devotion.

Also, a wand is a really poor alternative because of action costs. And you're ignoring the enormous boost to Str/Con that the Barbarian gets for just one level. Or an extra attack per Whirling Frenzy (great with Pounce!).


P.S. I think a warlock mix might actually be worth it to be a secondary magic device guy. With high charisma, you can definitively be good at it, and a 4-5lvl warlock dip will give that an enormous edge accompanied by some all day Buffs.
Right, but... why be a Paladin at all then? A single-classed Warlock would be way better at this. You still haven't answered this question.


The other way one can spin a paladin would be go "mildly psychic" paladin. Basically taking Power Attack->PsyWeapon->Deep Impact->PsyMeditation to touch attack with full PA every round and illuminate a need to charge. You still won't be as good as pouncers, BUT with a fighter dip you can get Improved Sunder=>Combat Brute to full attack after you power attacked with x3 bonuses.
You need to be psionic somehow, and really, the Paladin in general clashes so harshly with Psionics on a fluff level that the concept irritates me. That's probably just the Divine Mind rubbing off, though. Anyway, I don't think this is a particularly good combo, particularly for how late you get it without bonus feats.

[Suddo]

Asking why the Tier system is what it is is always welcome.

Paladins suffer from a lot of down falls. Being MAD (Multi Attribute Dependent) is one of the major problems of the Paladin. You need Str to Hit things, Con to stay alive, Wis for spells, Charisma for Save Bonuses. This leaves Int, which with only 2 skill points per level you may not want a negative, and Dex, which you don't want a negative in either and optimally would like a 12.

This means every attribute is desired by a paladin. Compare this with the Barbarian (which has other reasons he is a tier higher but this is still one):The Barbarian has 4 skills per level, so a Barbarian with a 6 Int gets the same points as a Paladin; Doesn't need Dex all that much, I think 12 should do because at high levels it will be your max with proper gearing; They don't need Charisma in any form other than Intimidate (which is a more trade off thing); They can then focus most of their points into Strength or Con, or good rolls if your rolling.

The next part is what define Tier 5 as Tier 5 and not Tier 4: "Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well, or so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything, and in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute." That is the definition JaronK presents and its quite a good one.
So lets compare the Paladin. He can fight but the Barbarian can do it much better. He can heal and cast spells but an Adept can do that better. So he's kind of spread out over too many things to be able to take advantage of any one aspect. Which is compounded by the fact he is MAD.

I might suggest giving him the Pathfinder Paladin with the Paladin of Freedom's Code of Conduct (and maybe some of the replacements). It allows you to drop Wisdom, as spells are now based on Charisma, and gives the Paladin a lot of nice things. Link here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin).

Hopefully that explains better how the Tier system works.

Edit:

A little late to join the fun, but I wanted to mention -- buffs like heroism are often compulsion effects, so the immunity improving from fear to charm/compulsion comes with some drawbacks too. (Personally, the thing I like best about that immunity is letting the party wizard and cleric lay down compulsion area effects right on top of you.)
I'm pretty sure it has either a you may turn off or except for harmless clause. If not it should.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Andion Isurand
...consider offering him the Serenity feat from the Dragon Compendium to make it so all of the Charisma-based paladin abilities become Wisdom-based instead.

Good suggestion, thanks. The paladin's MADness is something that does worry me a bit. Since we're in the Forgotten Realms, I've suggested gold dwarf as a way to palliate the standard dwarven Charisma penalty. That shifts the problem to Dex, but I don't see this character as being all that nimble anyway. :smalltongue:

[Red_Dog]

=>Answerer & Coidzor

Mind effecting spells are just as much of a fair game as every OTHER save-or-die or even no save just die. There are very few abilities in this game that are absolutely can't be save against by any means. If players are un-prepaired, trigger happy, or just plain ignorant, its very much there fault that they would fall victim to such things.

All DM has to do is not hot-drop one-hit-kill critters on top of the party without a reason. If the reason exists however, I see NO issues with it. Hell mind controlling is something that can be fun as DM will just pass notes/AIM the person who is controlled so he/she can act out the situation.
Its definitely better than many many more save-or-die spells that a lot of NPCs can pack.
================================================== =>
=>Answerer
How would one easily obtain permanent immunity to mind effecting spells? Protection from X[suppressing compulsion and charms] is the only line that does tat very early and it is not permanent.

Necropolitain is not really an acceptable answer. At least it doesn't make it easier. Being Undead has it own repercussions both thru RP and mechanically[very difficult to bring back from repeated death].

I am honestly not aware of very easy cheap ways to get immunity to compulsions permanently without any issues this early in the game.

Ubbercharging builds are all about PA. They just are, that's how they can scale their damage as str doesn't grow with levels, the BAB does. The build was found on Shock Trooper combo. Anyone with fullBAB can take it. If you want Str so badly, racial bonus is the way to go. Its quicker and easier and permanent.
Besides pounce[I said it was silly as it seems that besides that one amazing feature there is no mechanical reason to be barbarian, it seems to me more of a disservice for people who like the class, that the class was re-done into a dip-class more than it was ever before] Barbarians possess nothing that isn't flavor. All forms of rage are again just flavor. +4 to Stats is not

the enormous boost to Str/Con
Barbarians are objectively useful to be dipped at 1-2 lvls at most.

All I am saying is that Paladin is just as competent as the rest of his tier, and the perc to be immune to a lot of annoying spells and be dependable bring him up a lot IMO.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

Passive defense is not important in the tier system.
A monk has higher AC and saves than most barbarians, but is placed at a lower tier.
Being high in the tier system means having access to efficient solutions to many problems.
A wizard has the potential to solve efficiently any situation, hence Tier1.
A Monk can only contribute in combat, and he is not even effective at that.

So basically all paladin variants are the same.

[SowZ]

Don't forget the power to attract large mobs of young people as his followers by waving around a copy of Atlas Shrugged.

The Paladin is still MAD, (needs to many attributes to be useful.) You could, as has been suggested, consolidate what stats he needs, (Cha casting,) and maybe give him d12HD. That would make him a solid, (if not great,) class. If you are happy homebrewing, a minor nerf to the Druid would be your best bet.

[Coidzor]

Don't forget the power to attract large mobs of young people as his followers by waving around a copy of Atlas Shrugged.

Yeah, but most things you could actually do with that mob would be Evil anyway, and they still have to be CG. :smalltongue:

[Hirax]

All I am saying is that Paladin is just as competent as the rest of his tier, and the perc to be immune to a lot of annoying spells and be dependable bring him up a lot IMO.

Nothing you've posted makes a remotely convincing argument to move paladins of a different alignment up a tier. If all paladins got immunity to fear and compulsions, they still wouldn't move up a tier.

[Answerer]

Mind effecting spells are just as much of a fair game as every OTHER save-or-die or even no save just die. There are very few abilities in this game that are absolutely can't be save against by any means. If players are un-prepaired, trigger happy, or just plain ignorant, its very much there fault that they would fall victim to such things.

All DM has to do is not hot-drop one-hit-kill critters on top of the party without a reason. If the reason exists however, I see NO issues with it. Hell mind controlling is something that can be fun as DM will just pass notes/AIM the person who is controlled so he/she can act out the situation.
Its definitely better than many many more save-or-die spells that a lot of NPCs can pack.
I read this as "3.5 is really not a very good system, full of things that can easily cause people to not have a good time."

And I agree with that statement. It's probably not what you meant, but that's pretty much the take-away for me.


How would one easily obtain permanent immunity to mind effecting spells? Protection from X[suppressing compulsion and charms] is the only line that does tat very early and it is not permanent.

Necropolitain is not really an acceptable answer. At least it doesn't make it easier. Being Undead has it own repercussions both thru RP and mechanically[very difficult to bring back from repeated death].
I disagree, basically. I do consider Necropolitan to be a valid answer. *shrug* To each their own.

Otherwise, it's a bit harder to get than Paladin 3, though by no means impossible. Mostly, though, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Three levels of Paladin would not be even remotely worth it to me. Hell, even if I already had 2 levels of Paladin for Divine Grace, I doubt I'd take another level for it. I want more exciting things for my levels.


Ubbercharging builds are all about PA. They just are, that's how they can scale their damage as str doesn't grow with levels, the BAB does. The build was found on Shock Trooper combo. Anyone with fullBAB can take it. If you want Str so badly, racial bonus is the way to go. Its quicker and easier and permanent.
Pff, Rage might as well be permanent. But you are incorrect about them being "all about PA". +40 damage isn't what uberchargers are about. Uberchargers are about (+40 + 1.5*10 + 3.5*6)*5 or whatever. Valorous Lances, Leap Attack, whatever. You need a high base (i.e. Power Attack, Shock Trooper, and yes, a high Str), but what you really need is to multiply that base by as much as possible.


Besides pounce[I said it was silly as it seems that besides that one amazing feature there is no mechanical reason to be barbarian, it seems to me more of a disservice for people who like the class, that the class was re-done into a dip-class more than it was ever before] Barbarians possess nothing that isn't flavor. All forms of rage are again just flavor. +4 to Stats is not

Barbarians are objectively useful to be dipped at 1-2 lvls at most.
Yeah, and so is Paladin – but less often, because Divine Grace isn't nearly as good as Rage + Pounce or Whirling Frenzy + Pounce. That was pretty much my point.


All I am saying is that Paladin is just as competent as the rest of his tier, and the perc to be immune to a lot of annoying spells and be dependable bring him up a lot IMO.
"His tier" is 5. The barbarian's is 4. And no, immune to compulsions does not make him 4, much less equal to the barbarian's (relatively high) 4.

[Coidzor]

If the reason exists however, I see NO issues with it.

Me either. Still haven't seen any legitimate or good reasons ever actually given though. Mostly just petty revenge or thoughtlessness on the DM's part.


Hell mind controlling is something that can be fun as DM will just pass notes/AIM the person who is controlled so he/she can act out the situation.

If the DM is smart he can do some things with it, especially if he departs from the actual expectations and rules of the game when dealing with things that make it so that players' characters are no longer theirs to control.

Bit of a big if that you seem to be taking as an assured given though.


Its definitely better than many many more save-or-die spells that a lot of NPCs can pack.

Like getting one's eyeball scooped out with a spoon rather than stabbed out with a fork, I suppose. It's still one of the weaker areas of the system from its legacy of the bad old days.

[Red_Dog]

Coidzor=>

On all save-or-die. To me this actually does not represent weakness of the system and here is why. Most things that would have such abilities are not mooks and don't come "en mass". Or at least not in packs of 50[Even an Illithid hive generally will contain some odd 10 Illithids at MOST, if DM reads thier fluff].
This means, that PCs have time to prepare, research and scout thru w/e means they feel appropriate. This means that these abilities function as motivator for complex RP and not run-n-gun.

I usually say that if a player's character Int stat is above 10, than his character has no excuse to be incompetent[unless that's his shtik and he is comfortable being a comic relief of the party]. But by enlarge even in an all classic "evil" campaign, players work together and do their prep-work. If they don't than well... get the spoon scoop = ]
==================================================>

Answerer=>


Pff, Rage might as well be permanent. But you are incorrect about them being "all about PA". +40 damage isn't what uberchargers are about. Uberchargers are about (+40 + 1.5*10 + 3.5*6)*5 or whatever. Valorous Lances, Leap Attack, whatever. You need a high base (i.e. Power Attack, Shock Trooper, and yes, a high Str), but what you really need is to multiply that base by as much as possible.

Leap Attack effects PA dmg only. It bumps the PA multiplier to x3 for TH weapon. Valorous Lance... I am not sure where this item comes from. I would imagine that you need to be riding horseback to make use of it? But basically=>
PA modifier is the same for everyone w/ fullBAB [bar the old FB of course, but I read more threads about how NOT to take the guy than on how to make one]. Str mod is usually race dependent[Your Half-Ogres, Goliaths, Orcs what have you]. And as far as I know[could be missing a bundle of obscure rules] paladin's mount is a perfect way to double all the dmg dealt. I'd still go with charging smite myself if space is an issue [horses dislike dungeons]. Against a smitable enemy that's extra 60[at 20 obviously]dmg which is the same number Leap attack gives.

I guess on most points will have to agree to disagree = ]. As you said, to each is own. But for the record, while I feel that Jarnok's system of tiers is very good, I disagree with it on some points. Paladin's place is being one of them.

[Answerer]

But for the record, while I feel that Jarnok's system of tiers is very good, I disagree with it on some points. Paladin's place is being one of them.
Almost everyone has some pet class that they think is placed wrongly on the tiers.

Almost everyone is wrong about this.

You certainly have not convinced me, at all, that this is the case.

[Rejusu]

My 2cp is that a single immunity, even if it's a good one, doesn't make up for the rest of the problems with Paladins. Sure it makes it slightly better, but a single feature isn't enough to redeem an entire class. Well unless it was a REALLY good feature or immunity, like immunity to DAMAGE. But of course it's not, as good as immunity to compulsions may be it doesn't change the fact that a straight level 20 of any tier 4 class will be better than a level 20 Paladin. It makes it more desirable for dipping, but that's really about it.

Frankly I like the Paladin of tyranny for dipping more. A 10ft aura that gives opponents a flat -2 on saves? Yes please. I'd still multiclass or PrC out at the earliest opportunity though.


Almost everyone has some pet class that they think is placed wrongly on the tiers.

Almost everyone is wrong about this.

You certainly have not convinced me, at all, that this is the case.

Oddly enough I encountered someone who was the opposite recently. He seemed to be under the impression that 3.5 Druids were "worthless". Then he called me rude for telling him that he didn't know 3.5 D&D because apparently he'd been playing for so many years he'd lost count. And yet despite this he didn't know that Druids could cast spells while wildshaped (an example he used of why he thought they were bad) despite Natural spell being in the Players handbook...

[Socratov]

Before my 2 cp i'd like to make clear that I have no experience or deeper understanding of paladins whatsoever. I hereby act on hearsay and general advice: no rights can be taken from these words (they are fair use though).

OK, here goes:

first: a paladin of freedom is indeed more powerful then a conventional paladin for different reasons: the protection from compulsion effects is better then the fear protection, en moral code is slightly more relaxed allowing for more options in terms of gameplay. (this is not registered in the tiersystem since in raw power determinde by classfeatures (the stick up his hoohaah not counting) it gives no difference).

I heard that a mounted charger build would be most ideal (valourous lance something or other, charging smite etc.)

The casting of a paladin is not that important, though nice for buffs (level 1 vigor :D )

Your problem however is the spending of money, some DM's rule that you must be a goody two shoes and donate a part of your treasure to charities costing you your WBL.

Actually the nice elements are the divine grace, smiting and the special mount features.

One nice thing though, as a paladin of freedom you can freely multiclass with bard, enabeling you to go DFI (highly recommended)

I also agree with the fact that the druid will overshadow the party.

[Red_Dog]

=>Answerer

Just want to clear something up, paladin is NOT my pet class = ] I don't know if I HAVE a pet class... If I did it would be Hexblade for base and Assassin for PrC[not in the same build though ^^]. I stopped liking Paladins after I stopped liking superheroes which was around 10years old I wont to say? hehe long time ago is the base point here
= ]

However, If I didn't convince you so be it. I presented my point enough, and we'll agree to disagree. I do have a question however=>

I honestly would not see why doesn't this combo work, but if it doesn't than Barbarian might have "something special" otherwise, I really just illuminated the need for that dip for my own builds.

Combining [B]Shock Trooper and Combat Brute would give one[as I understand] a "delayed pounce". First you Leap attack with full PA that comes out of your BAB, and next turn you Full attack at fullBAB w/ x3 PA modifiers and no PA penalties of any kind.

This means that[IF I am right about this combo] almost all fullBAB classes can dip fighter 2 or maybe just be human and get both Combat Brute and Shock Trooper by lvl 6(or 9 w/ being human). That includes the paladin... which now racks up virtually exact same[if not more] damage as no FB barbarian would... Just saying ^^

Hell, to me, even a fighter is T4 if he/she[if he combo is correct of course] uses his/her feats right to get this "delayed pounce" and he/she can do that by lvl6 and grab 2 feats that sub his Con for Wiz... and she/he still has 14lvls to do w/e the hell he/she feels like ^^

But anyways. I do think I should stop derailing this thread any further. ^^ I will read a response but I don't think I will respond again ^^.

[SowZ]

Yeah, but most things you could actually do with that mob would be Evil anyway, and they still have to be CG. :smalltongue:

I could never play a Paladin of freedom because I would be way too tempted to make my final goal to create an alternate plane/utopia that only smart capitalists can enter and I slowly convince them to join my paradise. The DM should love it, though! It's a great plot hook! Later in the campaign, the Big Daddies show up.

As to Paladins, is Paladin of Freedom the strongest Paladin variant? What about Paladin of Tyranny, for example?

[Acanous]

the strongest Paladin is actually Slaughter. Because you can PrC into Blackguard and keep everything, while getting bonus benefits... and your code of conduct is "Do whatever you want".

Edit: Also, the Paladin's mount is the strongest "Pet" there is. It's better than a Druid's animal companion. It's a monster that's 2 CR lower than your level (By it's description). Plus the bonuses from more levels in Paladin.
Trading it away just for Charging Smite makes me sad.

[Red_Dog]

the strongest Paladin is actually Slaughter. Because you can PrC into Blackguard and keep everything, while getting bonus benefits... and your code of conduct is "Do whatever you want".

Tyrany can go into black guard, but that is a TERRIBLE idea as if one wants the "double grace" effect, hexblade is sooo much better for it.

Also, NO, Slaughter's code of conduct is NOT "do w/e you want". He/she is not CN, he/she is devoted CE. This means, he/she HAS to disturb the peace, break laws and burn down a village per week or what not. In fact, Slaughter's code makes him/her the weakest of all variants as he/she REQUIRED to act on impulse or the God is taking their already very limited toys away. Not to mention that Debilitating Aura is about as useful as original Paladin's aura, or even worse.



As to Paladins, is Paladin of Freedom the strongest Paladin variant? What about Paladin of Tyranny, for example?
Tyranny IMO is arguably the strongest. Looses code of conduct [work towards being the best. If you do it slowly, its ok, as long as your heart is filled with resentment for everyone and your mind is filled with plans of world domination] + no save just suck aura. He/she mixes amazingly well w/ Hexblade 4 and can still take Bind Visage & Improved Bind Visage to get Folcar [or what his name? the crying prince] to get whooping -6 no save just suck around himself.

Also, Tyranny is qualified for some ACF of normal Paladins. IMO for most of those like curse breaker(not thematic though) and hormonous knight[Eulogy reading Fighter anyone? ^^] or even basic charging smite.

[Answerer]

Oddly enough I encountered someone who was the opposite recently. He seemed to be under the impression that 3.5 Druids were "worthless". Then he called me rude for telling him that he didn't know 3.5 D&D because apparently he'd been playing for so many years he'd lost count. And yet despite this he didn't know that Druids could cast spells while wildshaped (an example he used of why he thought they were bad) despite Natural spell being in the Players handbook...
That's honestly scary to think about in the specifics, but in general that's not uncommon. I said everyone has a "pet class that they think is placed wrongly on the tiers." For plenty of people, that's not that it's too low, but too high – people who associate high tiers with cheese or munchkinism or whatever sometimes protest that really, their favored class totally is balanced, it has all these weaknesses (that somehow the entirety of the 3.5-playing world has missed).


Just want to clear something up, paladin is NOT my pet class = ]
OK, that's great. I didn't really mean it like that, "pet" was intended more like is in the phrases "pet peeve" or "pet project" or whatever.


I honestly would not see why doesn't this combo work, but if it doesn't than Barbarian might have "something special" otherwise, I really just illuminated the need for that dip for my own builds.

Combining [B]Shock Trooper and Combat Brute would give one[as I understand] a "delayed pounce". First you Leap attack with full PA that comes out of your BAB, and next turn you Full attack at fullBAB w/ x3 PA modifiers and no PA penalties of any kind.

This means that[IF I am right about this combo] almost all fullBAB classes can dip fighter 2 or maybe just be human and get both Combat Brute and Shock Trooper by lvl 6(or 9 w/ being human). That includes the paladin... which now racks up virtually exact same[if not more] damage as no FB barbarian would... Just saying ^^

Hell, to me, even a fighter is T4 if he/she[if he combo is correct of course] uses his/her feats right to get this "delayed pounce" and he/she can do that by lvl6 and grab 2 feats that sub his Con for Wiz... and she/he still has 14lvls to do w/e the hell he/she feels like ^^
OK, there's a few things going on here.

First, there's multiclassing going on. Even when you multiclass among classes in a given Tier, you can make combinations more powerful than the separate parts. This is especially true for the lower-tier classes – most are bad mostly because they don't scale at all. Paladin 2 is OK, Barbarian 1 is excellent for one level, even Monk 2 has a lot to offer. Fighter 2, eh, OK, sometimes you need the feats. The combination still isn't amazing, but you can probably push them up a Tier doing it.

Second, and more importantly, the Tier system, on some level, is supposed to be about what the class, itself, is offering. If you can accomplish something based purely on your normal feats and WBL alone, then it doesn't matter what class you actually take. That's why UMD doesn't factor into the Tier system: anyone can do it (hah... even Monks), but it just doesn't say much of anything about the class unless they have a particular related class feature (i.e. Artificer and Warlock, and even the latter is Tier'd based on him not using it too much). So if a combo really can be done by anyone, then it doesn't really affect anyone's Tier. The Tiers are about what a particular class brings to the table.

The Paladin brings a few things to the table (full BAB, the Mount, some useful spells) when we talk about charging, but ultimately it's not really that much, and it really doesn't bring much of anything when we talk about doing almost anything else (with the one major exception of Divine Grace).

The Barbarian gets more HP, skills, attack bonuses, and damage. He can potentially get a bonus attack per round and Pounce. He doesn't scale particularly well, but then neither does the Paladin: almost everything good in Paladin is gotten by Paladin 5.

But where the Paladin is almost as good as the Barbarian at charging, the Barbarian can also be excellent at, say, Tripping – the Strength bonus helps a lot more there. Or, I guess, Grappling or Bull Rushing, though the Dungeoncrasher's much better at the latter.

This sort of versatility isn't really available to the Paladin. He can take those feats, but he doesn't really have anything in the way of class features that makes him any good at them.

Also, the Barbarian has two important Abilities; the Paladin has four. That makes a huge difference. Yeah, you can take Serenity to reduce that to three, but feats are precious things.

So these are why the Barbarian is a solid 4, and the Paladin is, generally speaking, 5. The Barbarian has more options, and less issues accomplishing his chosen schtick, than the Paladin. Plus, the Barbarian is at least a little bit better than the Paladin at the Paladin's supposed schtick.


Also, the Paladin's mount is the strongest "Pet" there is. It's better than a Druid's animal companion. It's a monster that's 2 CR lower than your level (By it's description). Plus the bonuses from more levels in Paladin.
On the face of it, sure. In reality? Not even close. If nothing else, the Druid's freedom in choosing his Animal Companion is alone worth way more.

That said, the Mount can be a quite respectable feature, and in reality it may be the Paladin's best.


Tyranny IMO is arguably the strongest. Looses code of conduct [work towards being the best. If you do it slowly, its ok, as long as your heart is filled with resentment for everyone and your mind is filled with plans of world domination] + no save just suck aura. He/she mixes amazingly well w/ Hexblade 4 and can still take Bind Visage & Improved Bind Visage to get Folcar [or what his name? the crying prince] to get whooping -6 no save just suck around himself.
Suffers from the Marshal's problem, though. And really, that's an awful lot of levels to spend to accomplish that.

It's Focalor, by the way.

[Red_Dog]

Answerer=>


Suffers from the Marshal's problem, though. And really, that's an awful lot of levels to spend to accomplish that.

It's Focalor, by the way.

I generally try to look up proper names, but sometimes I am waaay to tired ^^

Also, was just pointing out a better solution than Blackguard. 7lvl for -6 actually quite an "ok" investment because that "raises casting stat" (DC for spells) of your allies by 12. That is actually a hefty benefit, its no Doomspeacking Bard... but that feat is just unfair. heh

Also, for the argument, as I've said I won't continue. I just have to say that I think that ability to take feats (qualify for them due to fullBAB for example) is incredibly important. We can keep going back and forth, but ultimately again we'll just have to disagree here^^

[MukkTB]

"3.5 is really not a very good system, full of things that can easily cause people to not have a good time."

Pretty much this. And I'm a 3.x player. Balance is horrible. Hence the teir system. As written the game's rules shouldn't result in a pseudo medieval fantasy setting. They should result in a Tippyverse. At all levels combat is like rocket launcher tag. You are never more than one failed saving throw away from death or worse. Alignment can be a pain when its treated as a game mechanic instead of a fluff descriptor leading to tyrannical insane interpretations of the unclear concept. At the same time clerics run around with only vague connections to anything divine. Magic has no fundamental cost so it gets spammed everywhere. The whole thing is a fantasy kitchen sink. There are Half Vampire Elder Kobold Doomknights who took some levels in Barbarian to pounce down from their flying carpets. Tortoise wizards living in their own dimensions outside of time astrally project mannequins to the material plan while running contingencies against all possible setbacks. The strongest cheese breaks the game in half giving its player unlimited power by RAW. People refuse to start at level 1 for fear of getting crushed.

So playing 3.X requires constraint on everyone's part. The players and DM make decisions on the basis of making the game more fun. You play the MTP within constraint of the rules of 3.X. You don't sit there smashing teacups or spitting on the crumpets.

[Answerer]

Alternatives do exist. I sit and chat about 3.5 because I'm bored enough to do so, but really Legend has completely replaced it as my game of choice, and when I do play 3.5 with friends it's with a lot of cringing at the various bad design in it. I mean, still fun and there's a ton of good material, but... overall, there's a lot of bad.

[JackMage666]

Your problem however is the spending of money, some DM's rule that you must be a goody two shoes and donate a part of your treasure to charities costing you your WBL.

I would never play under a DM who forced me to sacrifice my WBL to play an inferior class, just cause I'm a good guy. They want a donation? I'll kill them a dragon, but keep your hands off my coinpurse.

Especially if said DM was letting someone play an unmodified Druid in the same campaign. Druids own other classes without trying, sure, Wizard *can* break the game, but it at least takes a player picking the right spells. Druid's just run around in Elemental form casting what they wish, while their Dire Bear chews off the faces of everyone else.

Meanwhile I have to give to the church of Pelor just to keep my +Cha to saves? Pfff.

On that note, I think the important part to notice about the OP is that it says the game is not high-op. In other words, said Paladin doesn't have to be an Ubercharger. He can be a mildly effective melee combatant with a lot of RP potential.


Also, Tyranny is qualified for some ACF of normal Paladins. IMO for most of those like curse breaker(not thematic though) and hormonous knight[Eulogy reading Fighter anyone? ^^] or even basic charging smite
*snicker*

[MukkTB]

Alternatives do exist.

IDK. I'd have to get my group to switch. I'd have to be convinced that something else was better. I've heard stuff about legend but nothing as concrete as I'd like.

[Acanous]

I would agree that the mount is a Paladin's best feature. Especially if you grab the feat that lets your mount be a Dragon.

[Rejusu]

That's honestly scary to think about in the specifics, but in general that's not uncommon. I said everyone has a "pet class that they think is placed wrongly on the tiers." For plenty of people, that's not that it's too low, but too high – people who associate high tiers with cheese or munchkinism or whatever sometimes protest that really, their favored class totally is balanced, it has all these weaknesses (that somehow the entirety of the 3.5-playing world has missed).

What's worse is he brought weapon proficiencies into it of all things. And he was getting irate because I told him he didn't know the game...


Also, for the argument, as I've said I won't continue. I just have to say that I think that ability to take feats (qualify for them due to fullBAB for example) is incredibly important. We can keep going back and forth, but ultimately again we'll just have to disagree here^^

But there are plenty of classes with full BAB that are much better than the Paladin. This is the issue. And it's not worth bringing multi-classing or PrC's into it because then you're not talking about the strength of the class, you're talking about it's usefulness as a component for a build. The reason why Paladin is tier 5 is because a level 20 Paladin isn't as strong as a level 20 tier 4 class. Most tier 4's and 5's are still useful as dips though. I have a build that uses a 4 level Paladin of Tyranny as a dip, but I wouldn't take it all the way to 20 or even much further than that.

Usefulness as a dip though does not change the fact that the class overall is weak, and some minor changes to it's class features doesn't change that.

[Answerer]

IDK. I'd have to get my group to switch. I'd have to be convinced that something else was better. I've heard stuff about legend but nothing as concrete as I'd like.
Well, there are several reviews out there (e.g. by /rpg subreddit mod tekhammer (http://www.oldschool.geek.nz/2011/11/25/legend-the-rpg/), by playtester DragoonWraith (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/15/15453.phtml), by webcomic artist Brian Clevinger (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2012/01/03/nerding-it-up-with-legend/)), plus you can download the PDF absolutely free (though you should consider donating once they get the site overhauled, since it's all going to Child's Play anyway).

There are also two (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223875) threads (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231615) here on GitP about it (plus several other offshoot threads).