Help me enjoy 4th edition

[pffh]

I've tried 4th edition before and didn't really enjoy it but been invited to a 4th edition game and I'll take hanging out with my friends over not hanging out with my friends so I come to the playground asking for help.

I had three main problems with 4th edition
1) All the roles felt the same (ie all the strikers felt the same, all the defenders felt the same etc)
2) I hate expendable resources since I always end up not using them.
3) Dozen minor bonuses that flicker on and off

#1 I guess I can't change so I'll just have to live with that but if someone could suggest a build or a class that has next to no expendable resources (that is no or few enough daily powers that I can safely ignore them and stuff like that) and preferebly has always the same static bonuses that would be awesome. It would be a bonus if it could ignore minuses from the enemy as well but that's not a necessity.

Thank you :smallsmile:

[DeltaEmil]

First off, which role would you like to play?

You might be interested in the Heroes of the Fallen Lands Essential book, as some classes there (namely the slayer, knight and the thief) do not use daily powers. Both the slayer (subclass of the PH 1 fighter) and the thief (subclass of the PH 1 rogue who is renamed scoundrel) are strikers, whereas the knight is a defender subclass of the PH 1 fighter (now renamed to be the weapon master).

[tcrudisi]

I've tried 4th edition before and didn't really enjoy it but been invited to a 4th edition game and I'll take hanging out with my friends over not hanging out with my friends so I come to the playground asking for help.

I had three main problems with 4th edition
1) All the roles felt the same (ie all the strikers felt the same, all the defenders felt the same etc)
2) I hate expendable resources since I always end up not using them.
3) Dozen minor bonuses that flicker on and off

#1 I guess I can't change so I'll just have to live with that but if someone could suggest a build or a class that has next to no expendable resources (that is no or few enough daily powers that I can safely ignore them and stuff like that) and preferebly has always the same static bonuses that would be awesome. It would be a bonus if it could ignore minuses from the enemy as well but that's not a necessity.

Thank you :smallsmile:

I'm assuming you come from a 3.5 background. To that end: does a Sorcerer and Wizard from 3.5 feel the same to you? Does a Fighter and Barbarian feel the same to you? If not, then I believe it's bias against 4e and not actually flavor that's causing them to feel the same to you in 4e. Because even within roles like striker, a Sorcerer and Barbarian feel very, very different to me.

I still have a problem with #2 myself. I'll hoard my dailies until the right time to use them. I still go through many gaming days without using any or all of my dailies. But, sometimes I hit that encounter where I burn through all of them. It's rare, but it happens.

My point is that it's a mindset. I'll use them when I need them, not when I want them. Frankly, except for Wizard and Warden, I can't think of any classes that really "strongly encourage" you to use your dailies. You can easily get by just pretending they don't exist until you end up in that one combat that's a real killer.

There really aren't THAT many more minor bonuses in 4e than there were in 3.5. In fact, they simplified a lot of them (combat advantage is combat advantage is combat advantage, no matter how many different ways you have it). So if you don't have a leader? Ignoring combat advantage, you probably won't have more than 1 minor ability going on at one time ... and you are unlikely to have one. The good news? Most leaders will remind you about the bonuses when it's your turn.

Having said all of that, I can't really suggest what to play because I don't know what you like to play. I like to suggest for new players from 3.5 to check out either the defender or the leader -- both roles where 4e makes 3.5 look bad. Suddenly there's a role that can actually keep a monsters attention (beyond the DM just staying on the Fighter because he's a Fighter) or that can do something beyond heal in combat (minor action? Sweet!). But ... you might not enjoy playing the guy behind the guy who kills the dragon (leader) or the guy who gets in the dragons face and keeps its attention while the striker kills it (defender). I really don't know -- and that's why we need more information from you as to what you enjoy, not simply what you don't enjoy.

Things you don't enjoy can quickly and easily be replaced in most instances.

[EccentricCircle]

One important thing to remember is that just because you have powers doesn't mean that they are your characters only options. You can still make basic melee and ranged attacks, albeit they are not as powerful as the power ones.
I always pick a couple of simple at will powers that are essentially my standard attacks. These are what I default to if I'm not sure what to do.
then when your turn is coming around don't look at your list of powers and think. *Ok what power do I want to use this turn?* look at the board or the DM or the other players and think *Ok what do I want my character to do this turn, well theres that zombie on the edge of the bridge it would be good to push him over the edge, wait a moment I have that power which slides an enemy one square...*

If you use the powers as tools to do what your character wants to do rather than as options on a drop down menu you should hopefully find that the characters, if not the classes themselves feel a bit more distinct.
after all you're not playing "Rogue" or "Wizard" you're playing Haley or Varsuvius.

[Musco]

I have to agree with tcrudisi here, it does seem more bias than anything else. Been there, done that, know how it feels.
Truth be told, 4th characters are acuatlly way more different than 3.5 ones, with power customization and all. Sure, some powers are better, some combos are better, but you could still have an unoptimized, flavorful character and be able to play. It's acutally way better than 3.5 in that aspect, since by the 10th level, every character were pretty much the same, what with only "attacks per round" instead of descriptive, flavorful powers, and everyone selecting pretty much the same feat list within the larger categories (ranged attacks, melee attacks, spells, magit items).
Combats in 4th are also much more fun, since strategy plays a big role now, way more than brute force. I say, give it a shot. If you have a good DM, it's gonna be fine.
As for resources, it's pretty easy to figure out "boss fights" with a good DM, it'll usually take place in a flavorful place, with stronger enemies and lots of minions (since most bosses will be solos or elites, meaning the encounter will spiral out of control with a lot more regular monsters), and that's your cue to expend Dailys. Or, if things are looking dire, THAT'S another time to pull out the big guns, and rest afterwards anyway.
Encounter powers are not quite "expendable", so just open with them, to make encounters easy, since you can off a few enemies faster if everyone opens on Encounter Powers, due to dealing more damage (and you will ALWAYS have them available for the next fight anyway).
As far as Magic Item powers go, I usually treat them as Dailys, meaning that I'll always burn the best of them in boos fights and/or when things are getting grim, but due to Milestones, you actually get a beet of leeway with them, meaning that I won't usually burn through them but if I have more than one to spend, I'll spend lesser ones every even fight, since I'll gain back an activation due to reaching a milestone.
Not as "expendable" as spells in 3.5, I might say, which made spellcasters pretty much useless once they ran out, and forced the rest of the group to adapt to them, meaning they stopped once spells were over, even if it's a 6-player party with a single spellcaster, unless the stakes were insanely high.

[pffh]

Right I'm not going to turn this into a why I feel the classes are samey thread so I'm ignoring that and there is no need to try and convince me to give 4e another shot since I'm already doing that. :smallbiggrin:

On using stuff on bosses: I still wouldn't use my dailies on a boss since I'll always think "there may be an even harder fight just behind that corner so I better save them". I do this in all games and I even tend to hoard stuff that can be easily replaced like potions or low level wands.

What role do I want to play: Doesn't really matter I can work with whatever. And that goes the same with character achtypes I can work with anything there and although I usually like to create the fluff first and then find abilities that fit I don´t mind doing it the other way around.

What do I like: I like working with a handful of very different abilities and trying to use out of the box thinking on how to make them useful for my current situation and how to make them work together. I don't really care if those abilities deal damage, make someone like me, change my or others appearance, teleport me or others, make others able to do stuff or whatever.

If what I like to play in 3.5 is any help I like bards, warblades and love crusaders. If I play spellcasters in any game (not just 3.5) I prefer utility casters. For melee I prefer brutes and for ranged I prefer snipers (single high power shot from a distance).

[DeltaEmil]

Then try the slayer or the thief. Only at-will and encounter powers, no daily. Kinda boring compared to the AED-classes, but still relevant like them. Thief is of course more versatile and has sneak attack, but the slayer can be a quite good sniper because of stances like poised assault, mobile blade, and even unfettered fury (all which can be used as ranged basic attacks), although the slayer is of course more meant to be a melee character.

Try them.

[Musco]

Well, let's focus on hoarding, then. It seems the problem might be twofold:

1 - You're a hoarder/stingy/scrooge.
2 - Your DM is particularly evil.

The first thing, unfortunately, is something you have to work out on your own, but sometimes it's actually caused by the second situation.

You see, you gave me an example, where you had a Boss Fight and was still worried that "there might be something tougher after the next corner". If this is the case because it has happened with your group before, then either you misjudged a battle for a boss battle, of your DM is really evil, throwing multiple boss battles at your party subsequently.

Misdjudging a battle is usually the result of poor planning and/or decisions on the players, which make a battle way harder than it was.
Ex.: My playgroup had found a Kobold base and needed to stom in. Once of them decided to "sneak" in with "prisoners", and blew it by bad roleplaying, meaning a battle broke out with them surrounded inside the base while the rest of the group had to storm the gates with less force, so when they finally broke in, the guys inside were badly wounded, surrounded and they were pretty much all out of action points, since they spent those to get to the place faster (another thing I forgot, I usually treat action points the same as magic items, I will usually freely spend action points every even fight with no rest between, since I'll gain another one anyway and can only use one per battle, or if things are looking bad in a fight). They ended up spending Daily Powers, and were pretty crippled for the rest of the adventure until they found a spot that was secure enough to rest (they pretty much had to clear the whole place without Dailys, and then rest BEFORE leaving, for fearing an ambush on the way back). Took them a while to realize that they were only in such a bad spot because they turned a simple encounter into a boss battle due to their own actions, but they got to it eventually.

Now, if the problem is because your DM will actually throw boss fight after boss fight at your party, then what you do is simply lash out every fight, and simply rest in-between. If the DM is willing to force you through way above-average encounters, he's supposed to give you guys some breathing room by allowing you to rest. It he does not do that, and does this on a frequent basis (not a once-in-a-campaign-time-event), then it has to be adressed by talking directly with him, since he's throwing more than your group can handle at you more frequently than he should, and that's actually making his players paranoid with expending resources.

[pffh]

It's actually was not a DM that trained me to do this but old school video games where you had finite awesome stuff. So you saved them for the final boss and eventually defeated it without using the awesome stuff, because there might be another boss that would require the awesome stuff.

Also I'll check out the slayer.

[Musco]

Yeah, Final Fantasy VIII specifically did that a lot, what with the junctioning system. Thing is, you have to break out of the scroogeness and let it go. In 4e particularly, where resting simply replenishes all of your stuff, you'll never "run out" unless your DM really want you to (throwing multiple boss fights at the party or not letting you guys rest when needed - unless you start to overdo it, of course, like lashing out every single fight and resting for a day afterwards).
Try a session "lashing out", to see how much you miss your dailys. Then, try a session hoarding them (not even using if not necessary). Next, try one using the procedure I suggested, spending encounter powers first, spending action points (and weaker magic item activations) every even fight when you know you guys will push forward, and then lashing out in what's supposed to be the boss fight (leader of the place you invaded, BBEG, scary monster deep into the dungeon - you can probably rest after -, etc.)
This oughta solve the issue, since you'll figure out what suits you best, and realize that you don't need to hog resources.

[Sol]

I have a hard time with you stating that something you dislike about 4e is daily limited powers. Daily limited powers were far, far more common in 3/3.5. Is the issue that, because you have fewer of them now, they feel more important to keep around?

At/after level 9, classes which have dailies have enough of them to use roughly one per battle (as the encounter workday tends towards 3-4 fights). I try to pace myself, not blow any in the first encounter unless it seems necessary, and then spend one per battle after that. Classes like the Warden and Barbarian have daily powers which give them huge bonuses for the rest of the current encounter, and which don't stack with their other dailies. This encourages both use and pacing.

Alternately, many daily power options offer extremely powerful out-of-role effects. Striker and leader dailies sometimes mark an enemy, or offer a significant control effect. These are good powers to hoard, wait for the right moment, and then use them. They don't fit with your standard shtick, which makes it easier to ignore them, and makes it easier to "let go" of them when you find a good situation to use one in. An example could be an avenger who took only weapon at-wills and encounters but only took implement dailies, giving him a handful of ranged attacks per day for if he gets immobilized.

If you want to play a brute-ish character, I might suggest either a knight or a berserker. The knight is easy to use, has no daily powers, and is a fantastic defender at any optimization level. The berserker is fine at both low and high OP, but pretty weak in between. It does have daily powers, but they're easy to ignore, and it can switch between playing like a knight and playing like a slayer.

[Kurald Galain]

Starting at high heroic tier, whenever a fight starts you should not ask yourself whether to use a daily in that fight, but which daily you will use in that fight, and then use it as soon as possible.

By level 9 you should easily have at least four dailies (including daily utility powers and daily item powers) so you could generally use one every fight. If you have more than four fights per day, then running out of dailies is not going to be your biggest problem.

[Fatebreaker]

Pffh, I've had your same inclination when it comes to hoarding resources, and for much the same reason. Oddly enough, 4th Edition was what broke me of that habit. I'll talk more about that in a bit.

First, though, I want to talk about classes. 4th Edition classes have a lot of variety, especially once you gain a few levels. It doesn't appear that way at first, for a variety of reasons. All classes gain feats at the same level, daily powers at the same level, etc., so the class progression looks identical. Human [class] gets three of the four at-will powers that each core class starts with, so low-level human fighters look an awful lot like other low-level human fighters.

This changes. Trust me. Once you gain a few levels, you have enough encounter powers to throw out two or three per fight, and you can afford to spend a daily power without feeling like that was your one-and-only big power for the day. These start to combo up with one another (plus the abilities of your part!), and pretty soon you'll have options a-plenty.

Second, if you want an outside-the-box kinda guy, might I recommend the Swordmage? Depending on how you spec him, he's a striker-defender, a striker-controller, or a striker-striker (now with more striking!). Play an eladrin swordmage, and take teleportation powers, and you'll be able to pop around the battlefield like mad, always in the right place.

Some powers even let you teleport, attack, and teleport again. Combine that with an action point, and you can do things like teleport, attack, teleport, attack different target, teleport again! Now make that second attack a daily power. Now make sure that you teleport in a position with combat advantage. Now make sure your teammates have made the target vulnerable to the element of your choice (did I mention swordmages are big on elemental attacks?). Now make sure that the third teleport puts you in a position to offer combat advantage for another player. Oh, and that thing you teleported away from? Yeah, you also used a minor action to mark him, so now he has to slog his way through everyone else to come fight you. Good thing you're way over on the far side of the fight! In short, hilarity ensues.

Which brings me to the resource-hoarding issue. With 4th Edition's team-focused nature, it's not important for you to save your daily powers. It's important for someone to save their daily power, just in case, but if you're feeling iffy on a fight (not "iffy" as in "we might lose" but "iffy" as in "this isn't a cakewalk"), throw down a daily. Once you have a few dailies under your belt, it's unlikely that the party will spend all of them. And like my swordmage above, there are times when a combination of powers & players are just too damn effective to pass up. As your party learns combos (give 'em cheesy names; it makes 'em all the better), you'll get a grasp on which ones to save for boss-fights. Anything else is there to make sure you live to see the boss-fight, and to look cool doing it.

I made sure I had cards of my powers, and anything that I used I flipped face-down. After a few play sessions of struggling through fights and having face-up cards at the end of it, I learned to use my powers.

Oh! That reminds me. You mentioned you didn't like all the fluctuating bonuses. Use tokens, cards, or something to keep track. I would put tiny markers beside enemies I'd marked, or made vulnerable to an element, or when I had damage reduction up, or something, and it made everything SO much clearer. Visual cues are amazingly useful in 4th Edition. Also, with a little effort, they can look really cool.

Anyhow, I hope that helps. Good luck!

[pffh]

Yeah that's probably the problem there I've never played a 4e game that got that high, the highest ended at around 6 or 7.

[LaZodiac]

In that case, maybe have your next game start at our around there. I've heard 5 is a good starting point for some campaigns.

Also, if you find you still can't break the habit, perhaps work it into your character. Maybe your someone who finds himself "to refined" to use such powerful attacks, untill the enemy really tick him off. It's fun turning your own flaws into in game character traits =D

[MesiDoomstalker]

On hoarding dailies: I had the same issue too. Until I realized that some dailies have lasting effects. I tend to pick dailies that say "Effect: Until the end of the enoucnter..." or "Effect:...end your next turn. Sustain Minor" These make using a daily awesome as they have lasting effects on the enounter. Of course not every class has a good selection of these powers so yrmv.

[WickerNipple]

What do I like: I like working with a handful of very different abilities and trying to use out of the box thinking on how to make them useful for my current situation and how to make them work together. I don't really care if those abilities deal damage, make someone like me, change my or others appearance, teleport me or others, make others able to do stuff or whatever.

This made me think you might want to give Psion a looksee. The psionic classes (other than monk) are all designed to have fewer powers that can be used in a variety of different ways. They work on a power point system that recharges every encounter, so you won't have to fret about hoarding. Psions are the Controller of the psychic lot ~ so lots of what you'd probably consider "utility".

They do also have dailies, but as Kurald says by lvl 9+ you should really be thinking in terms of "what daily is best for this fight", since you'll likely have one to spend for each. You can hoard them if you like, Psions don't lie or die by their dailies.

[Kurald Galain]

In that case, maybe have your next game start at our around there. I've heard 5 is a good starting point for some campaigns.
Yes. Most people in my general area agree that, once you've played for a few months, starting at level 1 is boring.


On hoarding dailies: I had the same issue too. Until I realized that some dailies have lasting effects. I tend to pick dailies that say "Effect: Until the end of the enoucnter..." or "Effect:...end your next turn. Sustain Minor"
That is good advice. If a daily doesn't last through (almost) the entire encounter (whether via sustain, summons, save-ends, something else) then you probably need to pick a better daily. There are a handful of exceptions to this, but not many.

[valadil]

1) All the roles felt the same (ie all the strikers felt the same, all the defenders felt the same etc)

You'll see more variety depending on the classes or even the builds. I've seen wizards that act like sorcerers and wizards that couldn't be further away from a sorcerer.

2) I hate expendable resources since I always end up not using them.

I have that instinct too. To play 4e well I have to ignore it. Always play your encounter powers. Dailies take some judgment. TBH I think this is something you'll have to confront as you play. If you end up not liking this type of resource management I can't imagine you liking 4e. Personally I like it because it's not something I'm naturally good at. I can calculate probability pretty easily and plan my moves several turns in advance, but I have bad gut instincts about when a fight is worth blowing resources. I like having a challenge that I don't already know how to handle.


3) Dozen minor bonuses that flicker on and off

Two suggestions here. First off, write down your bonuses. I usually start up an index card for each fight. I'll write long term bonuses in one column and next turn bonuses in another, crossing those off as they expire.

The other suggestion assumes the bonuses come from a leader. Make the leader responsible for remembering your bonuses. My warlord was my most fun character because I kept track of bonuses during other players turns. Fighter would ask if a 23 hit and the GM said no. I'd ask about a 27 and remind him about the bonuses I gave out. It made playing the buffer character fun because it reinforced when my buffs were making the difference to hit and it gave me something to do between turns.

[Dimers]

TL;DR: I feel ya, and you should take slayer, thief, fighter, barbarian or warden.

I definitely have the hoarding instinct as well. Encounter powers help that, for me, because a fight is only likely to last three or four rounds and, well, that's how many encounter powers you get. Using one as soon as it makes any sense to do so is a good thing. If that doesn't work well enough for you, try making a character who recharges encounter powers; you can get plenty of help from the Playground on a topic that specific. Martial power source is particularly good for that, so maybe lean toward fighter, warlord or rogue.

I'd strongly recommend against classes that use power points. Though augmentable powers can effectively be treated like encounter powers if you trade them in normally at level-up and fully augment them with every use, the fact that you could save some of those power points for later just-in-cases makes them feel more precious. I had to do a lot of work to break out of the idea that I should save PP, much more work than I needed for encounter powers.

Taking Kurald's comment about a half-step further, the daily powers of the Barbarian class basically all last for a whole encounter, as do the "stance" dailies of Fighters and the polymorphs of Wardens. Those are what I was going to recommend for overcoming that aspect of your discomfort. I feel those dailies help especially well because many of them improve your other actions -- they can beef up your at-wills, your charges, your defender abilities, even many encounter powers. That makes me more likely to spend a daily, knowing that if I spend now, I can benefit from it multiple times. I hate the gamble that if I miss with my single attack roll, the whole thing is wasted.

Re: problem-solving and thinking outside the box -- go for classes with lots of trained skills or Ritual Caster. I know you'll find tons of good ways to apply either of those. Anybody can become a Ritual Caster, but if you don't start out with Arcana and/or Religion trained, it's a lot less useful. Ideally you should have both trained for rituals. Sadly there's not much overlap between the outside-the-box classes and the power-conservation classes; thief is about the best for that, I guess.

[Raimun]

I know some people might not like all the advice I'm going to give but here goes.

Try to optimize your Melee Basic Attack (MBA) (or Ranged, if that's your cup of tea). Ways to do this include focusing on things like Charging with MBA-At-Wills or Twin Striking (Ranger). Boring but practical.

Look for the rare items that give you static, constant bonuses. They're usually listed in Properties of the item.

Favor Encounter-long effects over "Until the end of your next turn".

Get Reliable powers or stuff that restore powers (Salve of Power etc.)

Already mentioned but play Slayer, Knight or Thief.

[Alienist]

I think the trick with Dailies is to keep an eye out on other people's healing surges.
Once people hit 50% of their surges, you know it won't be too many encounters before someone calls for a rest, so start dropping them at a rate of 1-2 per encounter (if you have lots), or 1 every 2 encounters (if you have only a few).

Another source of many dailies is your magic items. Since you get additional uses of them (but can't reuse the same item) when you reach milestones, you should aim to have dailies that are staggered, e.g. some that are good at the start of the day (moar damagez?) and some that are better at the end of the day (moar healingz?).

[tcrudisi]

Another source of many dailies is your magic items. Since you get additional uses of them (but can't reuse the same item) when you reach milestones, you should aim to have dailies that are staggered, e.g. some that are good at the start of the day (moar damagez?) and some that are better at the end of the day (moar healingz?).

This was changed via rules updates. You are now free to use all your item daily powers in the first combat, if you like.

It was "balanced" by introducing the item rarity rules. Not that anyone follows those. :smalltongue:

[Dimers]

I think the trick with Dailies is to keep an eye out on other people's healing surges.

I really like that suggestion! I'm gonna use that myself. May have been doing so subconsciously anyway, but now I'll notice it.

[Glinthall]

I'm surprised that no one has suggested the bard. You mentioned that you liked playing them before and that you like improvising to different situations. He does have the AED setup, so resource management is an issue, and I understand your hoarding issues since I have the same ones for the same reasons (I don't know if I ever used a healing potion in games like Crono Trigger, I just trekked all the way back to the portal and got the free healing at the end of time).

The thing with the bard is that you really are the jack of all trades. All of your skills get a bonus of some sorts, so you don't have to feel like "I can't attempt a skill check because I'm not trained in that skill." (this is a misconception that I see all the time; only the player with the highest modifier will make the check and everyone else will just "help" then the party will pass the DC by 10+) Different builds of the bard do very different things. Most people think of the tricky bard that just sings in the middle of battle and grants bonuses to allies. This build might be what you want since I've seen threads that talk about it as the best build for party movement. Positioning in this edition is vital. You might need to talk out strategies with your party as you play, but a good positioner can help the group keep combat advantage, avoid zones, and set up good AoEs with minimal collateral damage.

Although this is the type of bard I've seen the most of, my favorite type of bard is a valorous bard. This guy wades into battle in armor while wielding a sword, but infuses art and magic into his fighting. I always envision him as a Kenneth Brauna/Tarquin/Don Quixote (only not crazy because there are magic items and his courage does inspire great victories). Sure this guy spends time singing about battles, but they're battles that he actually fought in.

Adding to the out of the box thinking of the bard, you get rituals, utilities, and great social interaction abilities. Rituals are non-combat spells that can be used creatively to change how your party interacts with its environment and your social interactions can change the way your environment interacts with you.

Again, I don't know if the bard would be the best idea for you, given your other concerns, but if you want an adaptable character that can do all sorts of different things, then it might be good to look into.