Did I just find a way to get +2 level adjustment for free?

[DrewVolker]

So, I'm looking through some books I have.
Mostly looking at some templates, seeing if I can find one for a character concept I have for a upcomming game.

Anyway, I noticed a template in savage species. "INCARNATE CONSTRUCT". Which is basicly a construct that becomes fleshy. Now it has a lot of downsides for most constructs, and it has a -2 level adjustment (minimum 0). Now I thought, "Hey, what if you applied it to a warforged?". Sure, the downsides would slightly hurt the warforged, and yes, you'd loose all the nice immunities, but still. You are not hurt by the lowering of natural armor, and you do loose your "body as armor". In exchange for some slight losses you get a FREE +2 level adjustment to toy around with, honestly I think 2 +1 la templates, or a +2 la template far outshines what you give up as a warforged.

The "INCARNATE CONSTRUCT" template says it can be applied to any construct, and warforged are constructs with the living construct subtype, so I don't see why this wouldn't work, rules wise anyway (I think most DM's would probably throw a book at you for asking them to allow this cheese) but I've been in a few games where "as long as you can prove its possible via the rules, it will be allowed".

So what does the playground think?

[Big Fau]

Old news, and very difficult to use properly (not many Constructs have an LA to begin with, meaning the LA -2 doesn't change much, and the ones that do have high RHD).

[DrewVolker]

Old news, and very difficult to use properly (not many Constructs have an LA to begin with, meaning the LA -2 doesn't change much, and the ones that do have high RHD).

Ah, I've never seen it mentioned once anywhere in reality or on the web, so I didn't know it was that well known.
Still if applied to a warforged you could potentially get +2 la worth of other templates with no final level adjustment, atleast I am seeing it that way.

[FearlessGnome]

It does not mention where the 2LA are taken from, so the rules do not specify if they have to come from the construct race you started with or not.

Let's put it this way, any DM who interprets it as giving you -2LA to do with as you wish is quickly going to have to deal with a level 3 wizard who claims to be ECL1 'because that's how LA works'.

Amusement is not had.

[Rejusu]

Ah, I've never seen it mentioned once anywhere in reality or on the web, so I didn't know it was that well known.
Still if applied to a warforged you could potentially get +2 la worth of other templates with no final level adjustment, atleast I am seeing it that way.

I don't know how well known it is, but I remember my DM mentioning this to me a few years back. The problem is you'll find it difficult to find that many templates you can apply to a construct.

[gomipile]

Or just use it to add two character levels? Starting at ECL 1 as a level 3 wizard, for example?

[FearlessGnome]

Let's put it this way, any DM who interprets it as giving you -2LA to do with as you wish is quickly going to have to deal with a level 3 wizard who claims to be ECL1 'because that's how LA works'.
Or just use it to add two character levels? Starting at ECL 1 as a level 3 wizard, for example?The prophecy. It has been fulfilled. :smallbiggrin:

[Big Fau]

Ah, I've never seen it mentioned once anywhere in reality or on the web, so I didn't know it was that well known.
Still if applied to a warforged you could potentially get +2 la worth of other templates with no final level adjustment, atleast I am seeing it that way.

It is nice to think about, but the basic benefits of being a Warforged are pretty damn good as-is, and not that many LA +2 templates are worth having (there's a couple of good ones, but even amongst those only a handful are worth Living Construct benefits).

[DrewVolker]

It does not mention where the 2LA are taken from, so the rules do not specify if they have to come from the construct race you started with or not.

Let's put it this way, any DM who interprets it as giving you -2LA to do with as you wish is quickly going to have to deal with a level 3 wizard who claims to be ECL1 'because that's how LA works'.

Amusement is not had.

That example wouldn't pan out since it says minimum of 0 next to the -2 level adjustment. So if you did apply it to a character, and didn't have any other level adjustments going on, you'd still have just a LA of 0.

But yes, I do admit the way it dose not say where they are taken from could lead to some debate.


I don't know how well known it is, but I remember my DM mentioning this to me a few years back. The problem is you'll find it difficult to find that many templates you can apply to a construct.

Very true, but I've seen people before look for ages in obscure books for that "one" template/race that would push their character over the top. So I don't find it hard to imagine someone using this loop-hole to boost their character's overall "power level" to higher than what it should be.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Keep in mind that Incarnate Construct is an acquired template, which means any inherited templates you use have to be able to go on a Construct base creature.

Incarnate Construct's -2 LA will not result in a total negative level adjustment, so you must have a +2 LA or higher before applying it or you'll just end up with a LA 0 Incarnate Construct.

There aren't many decent construct-applicable templates to use that won't get all the benefits removed upon becoming an Incarnate Construct. This combination actually has extremely limited usefulness, and is probably not even worth using.

[gomipile]

The prophecy. It has been fulfilled. :smallbiggrin:

Sorry, it was a swordsage moment. :smallconfused:

[tyckspoon]

There aren't many decent construct-applicable templates to use that won't get all the benefits removed upon becoming an Incarnate Construct. This combination actually has extremely limited usefulness, and is probably not even worth using.

Yeah. You need templates that fit 3 requirements:
1: They give you stuff you'll still have after applying Incarnate Construct, which is basically just raw stat modifiers and a limited amount of Natural Armor- Incarnate Construct removes all your natural attacks, special qualities, and special abilities.
2: They're applicable to a Construct. Almost everything that specifies types does not allow Constructs, so you're mostly looking at the ones that say "any corporeal creature", "any living creature", and the like.
3: They don't change your type, because if they do you no longer qualify to receive Incarnate Construct.

So.. yeah. If you don't mind playing a Draconic Lolth-Touched Incarnate Warforged, that's pretty sweet. If you want to be anything other than a psychotic evil beatstick, Incarnate Construct's -2 is mostly a curiosity.

[gomipile]

Incarnate Construct's -2 LA will not result in a total negative level adjustment, so you must have a +2 LA or higher before applying it or you'll just end up with a LA 0 Incarnate Construct.

Is that "Rule of DM's sanity," or is there some RAW saying that a creature's net effective LA is never negative?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Is that "Rule of DM's sanity," or is there some RAW saying that a creature's net effective LA is never negative?

It's built into the template:
"Level Adjustment: –2 (minimum 0)."

[Vizzerdrix]

Would this work?

Dungeon breed winged effigy Incarnate cryo hydra?

[Benly]

Would this work?

Dungeon breed winged effigy Incarnate cryo hydra?

It "works" insofar as it's a sequence of templates which do not block each other's being applied and so it's a creature a DM could place in a dungeon without houseruling it. It doesn't really bear on the level adjustment question since at least one of the steps involved has an LA of "-" (I'm too lazy to check all of them).

[nedz]

It's built into the template:
"Level Adjustment: –2 (minimum 0)."

But -2 < 0 :smallconfused:

[Siosilvar]

But -2 < 0 :smallconfused:

Yes. That's why you'd need some other LA first.

[KicktheCAN]

Stoneboned is a +2 template from Dragon Magazine #350 that gives bonuses to Strength and Constitution as well as Powerful build.

[Eisenfavl]

Keep in mind that Incarnate Construct is an acquired template, which means any inherited templates you use have to be able to go on a Construct base creature.

Debatable. I believe that this would come under the 'stack in most favourable outcome' rule, or some more distressing methods. Say, a warforged becoming an Incarnate Construct and vampire bites them. Acquired + Acquired, but you still have the new LA reduced.
Furthermore, you could theoretically breed an incarnate war-forged with, say, a Minotaur, to get the 1 LA template of myth.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Debatable. I believe that this would come under the 'stack in most favourable outcome' rule, or some more distressing methods. Say, a warforged becoming an Incarnate Construct and vampire bites them. Acquired + Acquired, but you still have the new LA reduced.
Furthermore, you could theoretically breed an incarnate war-forged with, say, a Minotaur, to get the 1 LA template of myth.

Incarnate Constructs have no reproductive capabilities.

"Level Adjustment: –2 (minimum 0)" means that your LA can't be below 0 after Incarnate Construct is applied. Even if you acquire another template afterward, you'll still add that template's LA to your current LA 0.

It's not 'stack in most favourable outcome' it's "apply your own effects in the most beneficial order." Inherited versus acquired templates cannot be reordered, you must apply inherited templates first and then acquired templates afterward. Each effect is applied in its entirety, you cannot apply the Incarnate Construct drawbacks (removal of special attacks/qualities), then apply Vampire, and then apply the Incarnate Construct's level adjustment. The entire template must be applied all at once, effects which can be reordered can be arranged in the most beneficial order, but you must apply an entire effect at once.

[Thurbane]

Yeah, the Incarnate Construct "trick" is fairly well known, at least on D&D forums. Phrenic Warforged seems to be a common usage - you get all the bennies of Phrenic with no LA. You also lose all of your tasty Warforged immunities, though.

[kardar233]

Can Saint be put on a Construct? That's my favorite LA+2.

[Squidfist]

It does not mention where the 2LA are taken from, so the rules do not specify if they have to come from the construct race you started with or not.

Let's put it this way, any DM who interprets it as giving you -2LA to do with as you wish is quickly going to have to deal with a level 3 wizard who claims to be ECL1 'because that's how LA works'.

Amusement is not had.


Arguably, that wouldn't work. If you have -2 LA during character creation, you'd not have the chance to take more than one class level if it's a level 1 campaign. That's how I'd roll it, and think it's the only real way to go in a role playing sense. -2 LA doesn't mean your character had time to go and study 2 extra levels in wizard.

[Tytalus]

Yeah, the Incarnate Construct "trick" is fairly well known, at least on D&D forums. Phrenic Warforged seems to be a common usage - you get all the bennies of Phrenic with no LA. You also lose all of your tasty Warforged immunities, though.

No, you don't get all the Phrenic stuff, since IC removes all special attacks and qualities.

[JadePhoenix]

I suggest you do a google search on the subject the next time you 'find out' about something else.

[Mystify]

Can Saint be put on a Construct? That's my favorite LA+2.
Its acquired, so it doesn't help.

[Andorax]

Obah-Blessed (Dungeon 136, p61) isn't half bad. Some stat boosts and an extra set of arms that works out to LA +0 (or go the four extra arm route and wind up only paying LA +1).

[tyckspoon]

No, you don't get all the Phrenic stuff, since IC removes all special attacks and qualities.

Not a bad way to create a caster race, tho. Works out at LA 0 for 2 Int, 2 Wis, and 4 Cha.. so net +2 to all mentals once adjusted for Warforged's Cha penalty. (Although, strictly power-wise, a Lesser Aasimar is as good or better.)

[Rhatahema]

Obah-Blessed (Dungeon 136, p61) isn't half bad. Some stat boosts and an extra set of arms that works out to LA +0 (or go the four extra arm route and wind up only paying LA +1).


... can be applied to any construct creature with a generally humanoid form-two arms, two legs, one head...

The humanoid part is a shame, because I like the idea of the fleshy steamroller that would be the Incarnate Juggernaut [MMII]. Most of the that time I think about using Construct Incarnate, it's in conjunction with the Dustform template [Sandstorm]. Its uses are also limited, but is a little more open-ended than with warforged.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Ah, I've never seen it mentioned once anywhere in reality or on the web, so I didn't know it was that well known.You looked real hard I (http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=Incarnate+Construct)

[IdleMuse]

Most of the that time I think about using Construct Incarnate, it's in conjunction with the Dustform template [Sandstorm]. Its uses are also limited, but is a little more open-ended than with warforged.

I dunno about limited. A *deep breath* Lolth-touched Incarnate Construct Dustform Feral Half-Ogre Half-Minotaur Water Orc is +3LA total, and has +34 Strength and +16 Con, if I'm reading my old build notes correctly. Now admittedly there's dragonmag cheese in there, but Incarnate Construct Dustform is a legitmate template chain for pretty much anything.

I justify the above dude as the offspring of a (Half-Ogre/Half-Minotaur) and a (Feral Water Orc), who got lost in the desert one day, died, and eventually rose as a dustform. Who was subsequently met by a high-level Cleric of Lolth who cast Incarnate Construct on him.