Is there a good spellthief-to-rainbow servant track?

[gallagher]

i have been itching to build up a spellthief/rainbow servant character, because i have heard a lot of good things about rainbow servant, but am not going to pursue early entry tricks.

i was thinking spellthief1/beguiler2/Ab Champ5/unseen seer2/rainbow servant10

right now, since this is early planning stages, i havent quite figured out if i should switch out some levels of different prestige classes, or how to organize them to get the most out of this build

also, besides practiced spellcaster and master spellthief, what other feats am i looking at needing? this character would ultimately still fill the rogue role, so my feats and spells need to reflect my role in the party.

also, if there are other prestige classes i should look at that wouldnt take away from getting the 10th rainbow servant level, i would be open to switching things around. i just need to make sure i still fill the rogue role, so spellthief, beguiler, and some unseen seer are also pretty much needed, though the unseen seer is negotiable. I like ab champ in there because i can use divine strength to give me full BAB and master spellthief will boost my caster level through the moon.

[gallagher]

or, since i have trapfinding from two sources, would it be useful to go trickster spellthief to get a different spell list? is there a dual casting progression class that would progress two spontaneous classes? just for more master spellthief fun

[Benly]

I'm not clear on what you're hoping for with this build. Beguiler is not really doing much of anything for you, and you don't qualify for Abjurant Champion where you've put it in the build.

The most straightforward spellthief rainbow servant build is Spellthief (Trickster) 7/Rainbow Servant 10/Whatever 3. Without 9 levels of spellthief in the build, you can't steal level 9 spells even with Master Spellthief (it increases the level of spell you're allowed to steal, but your capacity for spell levels remains equal to your spellthief level, so you still need as many spellthief levels as the level of spell you want to be able to steal.)


If, on the other hand, what you want is a beguiler build that splashes spellthief to get Master Spellthief benefits, I suppose the question is why. As noted, with one level of spellthief you can only steal level 1 spells even with Master Spellthief, so you'd probably be better off with a straightforward Beguiler 6/Rainbow Servant 10/Whatever 4 build (you could fit in your Abjurant Champion and Unseen Seer at that point if you wanted.)

[nedz]

AC is a very good PrC for what it does, but it doesn't advance your skills. Basically you are going for an AD&D style Fighter/Magic User/Thief - which is very difficult to do in 3.5.
I'd drop AC and go Spell Thief/Beguiler/US/RS though again RS doesn't help with skills. This is OK if you are prepared to sacrifice the skill monkey role at high level, but you have to do that in any build of this sort.

[gallagher]

I'm not clear on what you're hoping for with this build. Beguiler is not really doing much of anything for you, and you don't qualify for Abjurant Champion where you've put it in the build.

The most straightforward spellthief rainbow servant build is Spellthief (Trickster) 7/Rainbow Servant 10/Whatever 3. Without 9 levels of spellthief in the build, you can't steal level 9 spells even with Master Spellthief (it increases the level of spell you're allowed to steal, but your capacity for spell levels remains equal to your spellthief level, so you still need as many spellthief levels as the level of spell you want to be able to steal.)


If, on the other hand, what you want is a beguiler build that splashes spellthief to get Master Spellthief benefits, I suppose the question is why. As noted, with one level of spellthief you can only steal level 1 spells even with Master Spellthief, so you'd probably be better off with a straightforward Beguiler 6/Rainbow Servant 10/Whatever 4 build (you could fit in your Abjurant Champion and Unseen Seer at that point if you wanted.)
i threw on the levels a little randomly just to throw out ideas, i asked what the best order was, but it looks like i overlooked the BAB requirement

Master Spellthief allows my spellthief level and my other caster levels stack for spells stolen and caster level, so after a level of trickster spellthief1/beguiler4/unseen seer2/RS10/Whatever4, with practiced spellcaster i should have a caster level of 20.

Beguiler is to know my whole spell list while being able to cast spontaneously. from my research, most people say to take beguiler, dread necro or warmage for that distinct advantage. beguiler is for skill points early, as well as having my spells known be from illusion

So i lose 5 spell levels, 4 from rainbow servant and 1 from spell thief, so i can only cast 8th level spells. im okay with that, as i am not filling the primary caster role, but am going with the scout role. as an INT focused character, i will have plenty of skills, and Able Learner lets me keep putting ranks in the skills i need to be a rogue. My spells and gear can further augment the skills i need to use to be very capable.

[nedz]

...So i lose 5 spell levels, 4 from rainbow servant and 1 from spell thief, ...

You lose 1 spell level. Text trumps table: read the Rainbow Servant again. Its 10/10.

[Benly]

Master Spellthief allows my spellthief level and my other caster levels stack for spells stolen and caster level, so after a level of trickster spellthief1/beguiler4/unseen seer2/RS10/Whatever4, with practiced spellcaster i should have a caster level of 20.

Beguiler is to know my whole spell list while being able to cast spontaneously. from my research, most people say to take beguiler, dread necro or warmage for that distinct advantage. beguiler is for skill points early, as well as having my spells known be from illusion

So i lose 5 spell levels, 4 from rainbow servant and 1 from spell thief, so i can only cast 8th level spells. im okay with that, as i am not filling the primary caster role, but am going with the scout role. as an INT focused character, i will have plenty of skills, and Able Learner lets me keep putting ranks in the skills i need to be a rogue. My spells and gear can further augment the skills i need to use to be very capable.

What exactly do you think that Spellthief and Master Spellthief are adding to this build, though? You'd have the same beguiler caster level with higher-level spells by going Beguiler 5/Unseen Seer 2/Rainbow Servant 10 and leaving Spellthief out of it entirely. All you get from Spellthief is 1d6 sneak attack, the ability to steal first-level spells, and a couple of extra first-level spells at CL 16 - Master Spellthief doesn't expand the spells known, just the caster level, so your spellthief spells known and per day will still be those of a first-level spellthief. (And if you don't take Trickster Spellthief, that's actually "none".)

I mean, I fully understand why you would want a beguiler/rainbow servant build, and Unseen Seer is an interesting addition that makes sense if you want more skillmonkeying, but spellthief is not really bringing much to the table. You would do a lot better either focusing on spellthief or leaving it out entirely.

edit: nedz, that particular argument has been going on so long that I find it's best to just let it lie with whatever a given table's DM thinks Rainbow Servant is supposed to give.

[gallagher]

What exactly do you think that Spellthief and Master Spellthief are adding to this build, though? You'd have the same beguiler caster level with higher-level spells by going Beguiler 5/Unseen Seer 2/Rainbow Servant 10 and leaving Spellthief out of it entirely. All you get from Spellthief is 1d6 sneak attack, the ability to steal first-level spells, and a couple of extra first-level spells at CL 16 - Master Spellthief doesn't expand the spells known, just the caster level, so your spellthief spells known and per day will still be those of a first-level spellthief. (And if you don't take Trickster Spellthief, that's actually "none".)

I mean, I fully understand why you would want a beguiler/rainbow servant build, and Unseen Seer is an interesting addition that makes sense if you want more skillmonkeying, but spellthief is not really bringing much to the table. You would do a lot better either focusing on spellthief or leaving it out entirely.

edit: nedz, that particular argument has been going on so long that I find it's best to just let it lie with whatever a given table's DM thinks Rainbow Servant is supposed to give.

spellthief is included because the ability to steal spells opens up more options for spells that i would otherwise be unable to cast. i figured it was an interesting way to increase my spell options at times.

[Benly]

spellthief is included because the ability to steal spells opens up more options for spells that i would otherwise be unable to cast. i figured it was an interesting way to increase my spell options at times.

The problem with that idea is that even with Master Spellthief, you only get level 1 spells with only one level of spellthief. If you read the Steal Spell ability it says "at any one time, a spellthief can possess a maximum number of stolen spell levels equal to his class level. (...) If he steals a spell that would cause him to exceed this limit, he must choose to lose stolen spells sufficient to reduce his total number of stolen spell levels to no more than this maximum." Master Spellthief increases the level of spells you can steal, but doesn't affect your storage, so even though your build can theoretically steal level 9 spells, if you stole a spell higher than first level you would need to immediately discard it to reduce your stolen spells down to one level or less.

So you could in theory swipe level 1 spells that you can't otherwise cast, but it's coming at the expense of being able to prepare your own higher-level spells. There are much better ways of expanding your spell list, and even without spellthief your build has already got one of the best of them.