Help with some NPC's

[Dyrynify]

Ok, I am running a homebrew setting in 3.5, and I need some help building a set of seven brothers to throw one by one at the party. The party is 5 level 5's, and I will throw the brothers at them as they grow in power, possibly with cohorts or henchmen to even the odds. I would like help in figuring out the best class and feat combos for:


A thrown weapons master
A pole arm master (Spears and tridents type)
A heavy weapons master (2 handed hammers and axes)
A 2 weapon fighting master
A double weapon master (Staffs and the like)
A single 1 handed weapon master (With or without shield)
An archery master


The brothers are pure martial combat, so no psionic or magic classes. They will each have a specific item or weapon that helps to negate or reduce the weakness of the style, or plays on the strengths, or changes the nature of the fight, forcing the PC's to think about how they will handle the situation. I would also welcome ideas for those items, as I only have the first two decided. The thrown master will be first, and be alone.

The two items I have are for the thrown master, and the pole arm master. The thrown master has a bandoleer that will replicate any thrown weapon placed inside it, getting around the expensive ammo problem.

The pole arm master has a spear that when thrust into the ground replicates itself, making literal walls of spears that spreads out at the direction of the user. The user can see through the spears as if using x-ray vision, and he will use the item to build a maze, hiding behind the walls, and thrusting a spear through them, since he can see where the PC's are.

Let me know if those items are too powerful or too weak.

[sol_kanar]

I believe you should think thoroughly about the use that your PCs might have for the items. Duplicating magical daggers could lead to a HUGE amount of money, if they can be sold.

On to the NPCs.
- The "polearm" master might be focused on tripping.
- One of the others might be focused on disarming.
- Why not replace one of the NPCs with a spiked chain master? Spiked chains can be extremely useful for both disarming and tripping, and they became really interesting if the NPC can be made Large with a spell or potion.
- Grappling could be an interesting technique, but it only works against one opponent at a time.
- Why not creating one warrior based on "pouncing"? (charging + making full attack)
- Have you considered Tome of Battle fighter-like classes? They could be useful to create fighters with very different "flavors", depending on their School(s) of choice.

Still, it's very hard to build fighter-like NPCs that can be a good "solo" challenge for a 5th-level group. One failed Will save, and they are as well as dead. They should at least have some goons (2nd-3rd level fighters) to support them.

Usually the hardest challenges for groups of PCs are...other groups of NPCs with class levels, even if they are of a lower level :-)

Also, I think we need more information about your PCs. What class are they? Are they optimized? How much?

[Dyrynify]

The daggers only last long enough to be used. So good for a throw or stab, not to sell. Same with the spears. They fade if removed from the ground. I thought about that. :biggrin:

As for the PC's, we have:


A human Rogue 1/Sorc 4
A Human Dragonfire Adept 5
A Halfling Druid 5
An Elven Cleric 5 (Cloistered Variant)
A Dwarven Warblade


I am not sure about optimization. I never really "got" the process. I can provide more details if needed.

[Aeryr]

One thing that goes really hard when you play a one vs five is action economy so I suggest adding thugs so they act as meat shield, flanking buddies, AoE eaters or AoO threaters. They don't really need to be a threat to the party one on one, but by being there they provide fun to the party (it's fun going 5vs1 but it's more fun dropping more than one rival) and survivality to the party if you were to make a challenging encounter so the 5 of them have to work together against a single enemy that guy is probably going to overkill them going solo. I'll try to propose ideas that will not necessarily make the solo guy able to oneshoot a 5 lvl character.

-Consider the thrown weapon master as a rogue/scout with the swift ambusher feat you can add a couple of ranger thugs (also throwing weapons) with the ACF of PHB2 so they facilitate sneaking damage. That can be a fight focused on mobility. He can even try to sneak on the PCs and if possible ambush them.

-The polearm master certainly can be focused on tripping that can be fun and add "unusual" mechanics to the encounter. Maybe make him be in a thin passage so he gets his flanks defended.

-For a heavy weapon master maybe a really big though guy? Goliath, Half-Giant? A Goliath Barbarian could be fun or a Half Giant Psychic Warrior. It can go the pouncing way suggested above quite easily.

-TWF is normally best being a rogue (for more sneak attack damage), it can be a warblade going kukri's way for crit fishing.

-Double weapon is normally really similar to TWF might I suggest a monk with long staff from complete warrior, combat expertise and allied defense? Having some students around him would give a defensive feeling to the enemy, and diferentiate it from TWF.

-Single Handed my favourite for that is a Daring Outlaw Swashbuckler - Rogue. It can be classy.

-An archery master could go the swift hunter way, being similar to the thrown weapon master or can be a sniper. Take as many ranks in hide as you can and able sniper or woodland archer and attack the party from really, really far away. Doing so in a forest would offer hiding ground, cover and possibly traps.

[Dyrynify]

Well, for the heavy weapons guy, the races are all human. They are brothers, so a goliath wont work. The thug idea is a good one, and I will probably do that. I am switching the double weapon to spiked chain.

Any thoughts on feats to make those characters shine?

[Suddo]

I hate to sound un-original but most, if not all, of those could be built on the Warblade Chassis.

1. A thrown weapons master
I'm not a thrown weapon fan see Archery for a couple of suggestions.

2. A pole arm master (Spears and tridents type)
Probably a trip build would be best. Give him a potion of Enlarge Person and watch him go to town. The Mage Slayer line in Complete Arcane will help him deal with any opposing Magic users. Spiked Chain will help make sure he doesn't have to worry about placement. So either:
Warblade 6, Feats: Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Exotic Weapon Profiency (Spiked Chain), Knock-Down.
or
Warblade 1 / Wolf Totem Barbarian 2 (UA varient) / Warblade 3, Feats: Power Attack, Exotic Weapon Profiency (Spiked Chain), Mage Slayer, Knock-Down. You gain Improved Trip through the levels in Barbarian. You can also try the Whirling Rage Varient from UA on the Barbarian.

3. A heavy weapons master (2 handed hammers and axes)
Uber-Charger is probably best. This means he could be a fighter in order to pick up the feats. Maybe even dip Rogue 1 for an extra feat (Alternate Class Feature). Warning this will cause him to become very much a glass cannon and gives him a good chance of auto-killing a single party member, especially with any form of Pounce.
Barbarian 1 / Warblade 1 / Fighter 4 / Frenzied Berserker 1, Feats (x7): Power Attack, Cleave, Leap Attack, Destructive Rage, Intimidating Rage, Improved Initiative, Extra Rage.
A reminder this is easily capable of killing 2 characters on the first round but then again that's it shtick so. If you have traits give him the +10 movement speed trait (I think you trade 1 AC for it). If you don't want Frenzied Berserker You can swap the Destructive Rage and Intimidating Rage for other feats.

4. A 2 weapon fighting master
There are dozens of TWF builds but any Tiger Claw build will be fine. This can be done with Warblade or Swordsage. It should be noted that sticking a Bard, especially one with Dragon Fire Inspiration, as a cohort of his would quickly increase the power. He shouldn't be too feat starved to be worth dipping Fighter 2, but Fighter 2 will help your Stance/Maneuver Progression.
Warblade 6, Feats: Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting,
Alternatively
Bard 2 / Warblade 5, Feats: Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Lingering Melody, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Song of the White Raven. Have him start out singing some place so he starts with Bard Music on.

5. A double weapon master (Staffs and the like)
Probably going to be very similar to the TWF build. In fact you could do the exact build most likely. I might suggest swapping him for a Grappler or something.

6. A single 1 handed weapon master (With or without shield)
I'm personally not a fan of shields but I think there are some shield bashing guides and some that could be done with either Warblade or Crusader.

7. An archery master
I'd suggest this guy having Magic of some sorts but you said they are purely mundane. He'll probably be a ranger. Complete Warrior has a no magic version of the Ranger to help with it. You'll have to add plenty of terrain, perhaps roof top encounter.

[nedz]

Aren't they going to need seven wives as well ?

Seriously: I expect these encounters to be somewhat of an anticlimax. You have 3 1/2 casters in the party, how are you going to stop them being curbstomped by the action economy. ?

[Dyrynify]

I'm not sure, that is why I am asking for help. Would it make more sense to group them into two or the encounters, with some thugs?

[Adderkleet]

An archery master

I'm currently working on one of these.

Woodelf fighter/ranger/order of the bow initiate seems nice.

Fighter at start for a quick extra feat and 2hp, then ranger (favoured class) to prevent the XP hit of taking OotB (or just keep going ranger and take ACFs for ranged flanking)

Coordinated shot and precice shot mean you can stay pretty far away from the action and not take penalties.

[nedz]

Seven encounters could work, but they would need backup. Give them each their own 'party' and they become a tough challange.
A horde of thugs would just be target practice for the casters, which they would probably enjoy the first few times.
If you have a caster heavy party then you would usually need to oppose that with other casters for balance, at least if you intend to make the encounter a challange.
There are alternatives, such as

Stealth - an ambush or a night attack. But one awake caster could neutralise this, whether they will or not is another matter.
AMF - don't over do this since it makes 3 1/2 members of your party high level commoners.

[Dyrynify]

Thanks for all the advice guys. One final question: I plan on these encounters to come every other level.(5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th.) What levels would be good for the individual parties that the PC's will face at those levels? Does character level scale with CR? That is one thing I have never been sure of.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

1. A thrown weapons master
Gloves of Endless Javelins (MIC), just Fighter with TWF, Brutal Throw (CV), Weapon Focus/Specialization, Ranged Weapon Mastery (PH2), etc. Give him some means of flight, such as an Amber Amulet of Vermin (MIC), to stay out of melee.

2. A pole arm master (Spears and tridents type)
I'd go Crusader with Stand Still (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill) + Thicket of Blades, and a lot of damaging/healing strikes. Give him Mage Slayer (CA) and get him close to the casters, they'll hate you. Be sure to give him spiked armor so he still threatens adjacent squares.

3. A heavy weapons master (2 handed hammers and axes)
EWP: Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer (MM4), probably make him a Warblade and use Stone Dragon and Iron Heart strikes. You could even make him Sunder a lot, though that's extremely mean to do to PCs. Definitely include Improved Critical if he's high enough level.

4. A 2 weapon fighting master
Swordsage with Shadow Blade, and a lot of sneaking around tricks. I'd probably give him a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (ToM) and the Darkstalker feat (LoM), and maybe even a Wand of Camouflage and a Dorje of Chameleon.

5. A double weapon master (Staffs and the like)
Give him a Longstaff from Complete Adventurer, with Elusive Target (CW) and maybe even Quick Staff (CW). I'd make him a Fighter 9+ with the Zhentarim Soldier (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) substitution levels, the Never Outnumbered skill trick (CS), and the feat Imperious Command from Drow of the Underdark. Maybe even include Dreadful Wrath (PGtF).

6. A single 1 handed weapon master (With or without shield)
Crusader, focusing on damaging/healing strikes and using Stone Power for a nice temporary HP cushion. Give him a lot of minions who are also difficult to kill, such as Gnome Warriors with Dodge, Titan Fighting (RoS), and tower shields. You could even give him a Dragonfire Adept (DM) dip with Entangling Exhalation (RotD) to really frustrate them.

7. An archery master
Fighter/Warblade, pick mostly counters and boosts, and get Weapon Focus/Specialization and Ranged Weapon Mastery. Again, some sort of flight or other means to stay out of melee will be somewhat necessary.

[sol_kanar]

Thanks for all the advice guys. One final question: I plan on these encounters to come every other level.(5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th.) What levels would be good for the individual parties that the PC's will face at those levels?

Personally, I would go with (level of the PCs - 3), since they will also have a "boss" that will be of a higher level than the rest of the party. I experimented with a group of NPC enemies of equal number (level of the PCs - 2) and it was a tough fight, mainly because the PCs were ambushed and the opponents had time to prepare (buff themselves with spells, etc.)


Does character level scale with CR? That is one thing I have never been sure of.

Theoretically, the CR of an NPC is equal to its level. In practice, however, this is completely false: if the party is in levels 1st-3rd, probably a Fighter-like opponent will be tougher for the PCs, while if the party is in levels 5th+, a spellcaster will be much more complicated to defeat.

This happens because spellcasters can attack multiple opponents at the same time with a single area-of-effect spell; and some spells are brutal even at low levels, factually disabling everyone that fails his/her save for the rest of the combat (read glitterdust, for example).

Already at level 7th (but some may argue even at level 5th!), a single Fighter-like boss is not very effective. Think about it: a Wizard casts greater invisibility, and the Fighter-like boss can't see it; a Cleric casts hold person (Will save!) and the Fighter-like boss is very likely to be beaten just like that; the Druid can just keep summoning critter after critter to help the Rogue flank, and the Fighter-like boss will spend the rest of the fight slashing at disposable creatures that block him/her, while the PCs happily blast from the distance.

So, that's why many here advised a party of opponents...but be careful, because some of the supporting goons for the "Fighter-like" boss have to be casters :-) to buff him/her and/or hinder the PCs; so, they might steal the "spotlight" from the Boss :-D

I don't know if it's possible, but personally I would use the seven brothers as bosses at levels 2nd-8th (or even 1st-7th).

[nedz]

Thanks for all the advice guys. One final question: I plan on these encounters to come every other level.(5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th.) What levels would be good for the individual parties that the PC's will face at those levels? Does character level scale with CR? That is one thing I have never been sure of.

CR is meant to scale with character level, but its a little imprecise.
It really depends upon the abilities of your players more than the level of their character. As their: DM only you can know the answer here.

[Dyrynify]

I think I have it sorted now, guys. Thanks a lot!