The Paragon Template... Playable?

[AzazelSephiroth]

Hello again mighty Playground builders!

I have an Epic Level Birthday one shot coming up in a month and since this is a special occasion and due to my love of awesome powers :smallbiggrin:
I have been looking at potentially using the Paragon creature template from the Epic Level Handbook on a player chracter... so my big question for everyone is this:

Is this possible to play with and if so, what would the ECL or adjustment be?

We are hoping to play at a ECL of about 21-23. The handbook and SRD list the template as adding to CR; not level adj. Probably because if was never meant for characters :smallwink: But I would love a chance to play as a Paragon and my DM will allow it if I can come up with a reasonable level adj for the campaign.
So please my fellow gamers and you super builders, would you help a birthday boy out and see if your great minds can work out an acceptable adj for play?

Thanks in advance!!

[crazyhedgewizrd]

the last time i had a look at the epic handbook, the paragon template has a +12 lvl adjustment.

[AzazelSephiroth]

Thanks for the quick reply!!

Is that in the updated copy or errata`d version? I only have the old first print version available... okay so a +12 level adj.
Hmmm that could be workable! A level 9-10 char would be ECL 21-22 then... perfect... now will it survive...:smallconfused:

[KillianHawkeye]

the last time i had a look at the epic handbook, the paragon template has a +12 lvl adjustment.

Your memory may not be what it used to be, because that information is not anywhere in the Epic Level Handbook, the errata file, or in the 3.5 update file. It is likewise not listed on the online SRD.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

Your memory may not be what it used to be, because that information is not anywhere in the Epic Level Handbook, the errata file, or in the 3.5 update file. It is likewise not listed on the online SRD.

i remember now i took the paragon illithid ecl - the normal illithid ecl, 27 - 15 = 12

[AzazelSephiroth]

Your memory may not be what it used to be, because that information is not anywhere in the Epic Level Handbook, the errata file, or in the 3.5 update file. It is likewise not listed on the online SRD.

If the +12 level adjustment is not the actual one, do you think it is a reasonable number? This character is not intended for more than the one or two sessions it takes for the adventure to complete. My DM will allow some reasonable liberties to be taken if the logic is sound... my abilitiy to break down lvl adj and abilities though are pretty slim so any advice would be most helpful!

And thanks for the reply!:smallsmile:

[Mystify]

A 12 LA is pretty much absurd any way you look at it. the LA system completely breaks down long, long before that point.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

It is suppose to be absurd any way you look at it.

[Ravens_cry]

I find it more a than little amusing that while the SRD has no rules mention of mind flayers, the artwork (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) for the Paragon Creature template is a depiction of an illithid.

[ngilop]

Thats becuase the ORIGINAL version of paragon, the one in epic level handbook had a Paragon Mind FLayer as the example paragon creature.

[Ravens_cry]

Thats becuase the ORIGINAL version of paragon, the one in epic level handbook had a Paragon Mind FLayer as the example paragon creature.
Oh, I know why, I still find it amusing is all.

[dgnslyr]

I find it more a than little amusing that while the SRD has no rules mention of mind flayers, the artwork (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) for the Paragon Creature template is a depiction of an illithid.

What? A mindflayer? Naw, that's just a Squid Monster. Mindflayer's aren't OGL, you can't have that on the SRD. Squid Monsters are perfectly kosher though. After all, it's original content, do not steal. why yes I am joking.

[AzazelSephiroth]

So it looks like I may be able to use the Paragon creature template as a level 12 adjustment, as long as I avoid any other templates or strange creatures... so I said why not human!:smallsmile:

But now to decide on a class.... 12 levels of Paragon+9 levels of something else... hmmm at 21st level the major problem with spell casting will be lack of high level spells, but Paragon does give a nice bonus to caster level, and a bonus to save DCs. Of course I could go classic warrior route and throw down a melee fighter of some kind... maybe make a noble and amazingly epic warrior.

Any suggestions? Assuming Paragon is 12 levels and we have 9 levels remaining... what would be your proposed builds for a solidly fun character to play that still must remain able to play well within the group:smallwink:

[KillianHawkeye]

i remember now i took the paragon illithid ecl - the normal illithid ecl, 27 - 15 = 12

Once again, that is false. There is no listed ECL for the Paragon Mind Flayer. Try again?

[Myth]

The template doesn't have a listed LA. It increases CR by 15, but that's not a realistic amount for Epic. All it gives is some HP and bab and some CL. All that is tetriary for an Epic character. I'd rather have 15 levels of Epic Dweomerkeepr than this. Hell, 15 levels of Epic anything caster is better than this.

[FearlessGnome]

Even 15 levels of Epic Commoner would give you better value than this template, since you'd get Epic feats.

[Myth]

Even 15 levels of Epic Commoner would give you better value than this template, since you'd get Epic feats.

And that would be the end of the thread but lately GitP has had an influx of "role play, not roll play" Stormwind fanatics. So I'm sure someone will show up and say "OP if ya wanna play one, play one". And I bet that guy would have no clue how Epic 3.5 functions.

[ahenobarbi]

And that would be the end of the thread but lately GitP has had an influx of "role play, not roll play" Stormwind fanatics. So I'm sure someone will show up and say "OP if ya wanna play one, play one". And I bet that guy would have no clue how Epic 3.5 functions.

Hey OP, it's for fun so if you want to play one. Just mind that I never played any character above 14 level :smallwink:

[onemorelurker]

And that would be the end of the thread but lately GitP has had an influx of "role play, not roll play" Stormwind fanatics. So I'm sure someone will show up and say "OP if ya wanna play one, play one". And I bet that guy would have no clue how Epic 3.5 functions.

Pretty much this. If you, OP, seriously don't care about character power and/or everyone else in your party is playing similarly loopy races (personally, I've always wanted to try a demilich...), then yeah, go for it if you want. Just be aware that a big LA is strictly inferior to actual class levels, so if the rest of your party has little to no LA, you will be massively outclassed.

[Tvtyrant]

You could use the incarnate construct template on a Warforged to get it for +10 LA, which would get a lot more mileage.

[ngilop]

And that would be the end of the thread but lately GitP has had an influx of "role play, not roll play" Stormwind fanatics. So I'm sure someone will show up and say "OP if ya wanna play one, play one". And I bet that guy would have no clue how Epic 3.5 functions.

I, myself, would prefer them than the powergamers. becuase D&D isn't about creating the most powerful character you can, its about having fun with your friends while playing a game together (in my opinion at least), if being a paragon is what makes you have fun then
OP if you wanna play one, play one

it might be hard to believe some some people care more about just creating a neat-o sounding character and having a blast playing it. Even if they have ot think WAAAY outside teh box to overcome the standard challenges.

But I will say Epic games are a league unto themselves you basically forget teh rules and do all sorts of crazy at that point.

[onemorelurker]

I, myself, would prefer them than the powergamers. becuase D&D isn't about creating the most powerful character you can, its about having fun with your friends while playing a game together (in my opinion at least), if being a paragon is what makes you have fun then

it might be hard to believe some some people care more about just creating a neat-o sounding character and having a blast playing it. Even if they have ot think WAAAY outside teh box to overcome the standard challenges.

But I will say Epic games are a league unto themselves you basically forget teh rules and do all sorts of crazy at that point.

As the Stormwind was predicted, so the Stormwind came. :smallsigh:

[ngilop]

Hmm odd, i never said once that one could not roleplay if they optimized a character.

The stormwind fallacy being


I still stand by the argument that this is a fundamental difference between old school (basic D&D: 1 race/class, AD&D: very limted multi-classing) vrs new school (I buy a book and there is a class in their and I want it gimmie gimmie). The trend I see is old school = roleplayers, new school = optomizers.

Note to New school people: Don't listen to what you hear, you aren't a dork if you roleplay. It is ok to indulge in what D&D is all about, roleplay. If you try it and have a good DM, I guarantee you'll have a blast and won't care so much about optomizing.
Okay, that's it.

I'm hereby proposing a new logical fallacy. It's not a new idea, but maybe with a catchy name (like the Oberoni Fallacy) it will catch on.

The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy
Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa.

Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game.

Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse roleplayer if he optimizes, and vice versa.
Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically roleplayed better than an optimized one, and vice versa.

(I admit that there are some diehards on both sides -- the RP fanatics who refuse to optimize as if strong characters were the mark of the Devil and the min/max munchkins who couldn't RP their way out of a paper bag without setting it on fire -- though I see these as extreme examples. The vast majority of people are in between, and thus the generalizations hold. The key word is 'automatically')

Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's gameplay. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Roleplaying deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else.
A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other.

Claiming that an optimizer cannot roleplay (or is participating in a playstyle that isn't supportive of roleplaying) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.

How does this impact "builds"? Simple.

In one extreme (say, Pun-Pun), they are thought experiments. Optimization tests that are not intended to see actual gameplay. Because they do not see gameplay, they do not commit the fallacy.

In the other extreme, you get the drama queens. They could care less about the rules, and are, essentially, playing free-form RP. Because the game is not necessary to this particular character, it doesn't fall into the fallacy.

By playing D&D, you opt in to an agreement of sorts -- the rules describe the world you live in, including yourself. To get the most out of those rules, in the same way you would get the most out of yourself, you must optimize in some respect (and don't look at me funny; you do it already, you just don't like to admit it. You don't need multiclassing or splatbooks to optimize). However, because it is a role-playing game, you also agree to play a role. This is dependent completely on you, and is independent of the rules.

And no, this isn't dependent on edition, or even what roleplaying game you're doing. If you are playing a roleplaying game with any form of rules or regulation, this fallacy can apply. The only difference is the nature of the optimization (based on the rules of that game; Tri-Stat optimizes differently than d20) or the flavor of the roleplay (based on the setting; Exalted feels different from Cthulu).

Conclusion: D&D, like it or not, has elements of both optimization AND roleplay in it. Any game that involves rules has optimization, and any role-playing game has roleplay. These are inherent to the game.

They go hand-in-hand in this sort of game. Deal with it. And in the name of all that is good and holy, stop committing the Stormwind Fallacy in the meantime.

what I said IS that sometimes real human being that actually exist, some times just come up with a crazy idea like you wanting to play a demilich.
Source. and they do not really care if their charatcer is weak as long as they are having fun playing said character.


I was just trying to be ironic in regards to myth's post's assertion that everybody that is going to say ' Its your character play the way that is the most fun for you' is promoting teh stormwind fallacy while those two are very mutually exlusive to one another.

really onemorelurker, you think that me saying 'play what gives you the most enjoyment' with your friends' is the stormwind fallacy and the incorrect reason and way to play D&D?

congratulations you have probably done the biggest insult to mself, ever in my entire life. Never would I have believed that supporting the whole ' its your character do what is the most fun for you, the person' side would get me called out as a fanatical, ignorant, anti-optimization person..

[onemorelurker]

I think I misinterpreted your post, ngilop. What I got from it was "some people like to play fun character concepts; other people are powergamers" (which is fallacious, since character concept is a roleplay thing). Thank you for explaining what you actually meant, and I apologize for misreading it.

[ngilop]

Apology accepted, irony and the like is mostly lost thoruhg text:( so its mostly attributed to that.

Can I invent my Own Fallacy now, called the Ngilop FallacyTM. (how does one do sub/super scripts on GiTP?)

it is similar to the whole Stormwind Fallacy but entirely different.

Its also very much abridged.

You see, just becuase a person says play what gives you the most enjoyment they do not mean that anybody who says 'thats not optimized at all' cannot roleplay, they just mean literally, play however and whatever gives you the most enjoyable experience out of D&D, or any other RPG ever in existance.

BAMMO!!! new Fallacy for all of us RPers and OPers :) I have to give credit to Myth for giving me the motivation to create it.

[Analytica]

Wing it. Make it maybe LA +8 or something. Do a human. Take all three levels of Human Paragon. Even better, be a half-elf. You can be a Paragon Half-Elf Half-Elf Paragon 3/Human Paragon 3/Elf Paragon 3/Ruathar 3. Get some Wizard levels in there as well. :smallbiggrin:

[crazyhedgewizrd]

Once again, that is false. There is no listed ECL for the Paragon Mind Flayer. Try again?

oh, it looks like someone dont look in the table at the start of the monster section.

edit: i am wrong it is 26, it on page 156 of the epic level handbook.

[vhfforever]

My vote is for actual class levels. While the Paragon Template looks nice, it gives you nothing at all that can't be replaced by the 15 levels in "Insert Spellcaster Here" that you could otherwise take...moreso when you start layering on PrC's.

[hydraa]

One thing to think about though is that it grants a lot of power, but no hit dice. We had a DM throw paragon commoners at us, that fell quickly to cloudkill

[Lans]

Once again, that is false. There is no listed ECL for the Paragon Mind Flayer. Try again?
Its in the Epic Level Handbook as part of a table

edit page 156

[Calanon]

Its in the Epic Level Handbook as part of a table

edit page 156

From the looks of it, Paragon Template is +18 LA :smalleek: (8HD + 18 = ECL 26) ...Hardly seems worth it... but Demilich is a +8 LA (21HD + 4 (Lich) + 8 (Demilich = 33 ECL) ... Templates from ELH hardly seem worth it sometimes :smalleek:

[Ashtagon]

I find it more a than little amusing that while the SRD has no rules mention of mind flayers, the artwork (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) for the Paragon Creature template is a depiction of an illithid.

The artwork is not actually part of the SRD. The SRD is purely a formatted text document. The fact that the admin of the d20srd.org website chooses to link to certain images does not make those images part of the SRD. The fact that those images are not even hosted on his server should also be a big clue that they are not part of the SRD.

[Drelua]

From the looks of it, Paragon Template is +18 LA :smalleek: (8HD + 18 = ECL 26) ...Hardly seems worth it... but Demilich is a +8 LA (21HD + 4 (Lich) + 8 (Demilich = 33 ECL) ... Templates from ELH hardly seem worth it sometimes :smalleek:

You're forgetting that Mind Flayers have an LA of +7. That brings it down to a much more manageable LA of +11. It's not great, but it doesn't seem bad to me.

[Calanon]

You're forgetting that Mind Flayers have an LA of +7. That brings it down to a much more manageable LA of +11. It's not great, but it doesn't seem bad to me.

Ah yes, apologies... I neglected to noticed that Mind Flayer has a LA as well as a Racial HD :smallredface: The SRD has spoiled me I suppose...

[AzazelSephiroth]

Wow, Thanks everyone for the suggestions!

Since this game is only for one or two sessions, everyone is hoping to bring out something they have always wanted to try yet always seemed to complicated/crazy/downright weird. I have always liked the concept of the perfect creature and after some talk I think the DM is allowing the template at a LA +10. It doesnt leave me with many HD... but having max hit points and an extra 12 per HD will be a big help.

Final rules have been covered:
level 21
a +1 LA for free (so that makes the paragon only a +9LA!!)
weird/strange builds are allowed but no one has access to epic spellcasting.
finally since this is my birthday game, I get one free epic item... but what to choose :smalleek:
I am thinking just for the lolz (and since my sister will be a wizard of ultimate power, per usual) I will make a paragon human fighter!:smallbiggrin:

Thank you all again for your assistance and I will post the final build here! (for those who want to see a paragon human fighter- you know you want to!)

[JackMage666]

Well, let's see what they get...

- Max HP+12/lvl (before Con)
- +29 AC, though more likely +24, since the NA likely won't stack. The Insight and Luck, however, have only a few conflicting sources. Luck and Insight also go into Touch AC, so it's a pretty sweet boon.
- +25 luck bonus to all attacks, most likely won't have conflicting sources, and almost surely beats it.
- +20 Damage on melee/thrown (not all Ranged.) Meh.
- +13 Insight bonus to Special Attacks... Not quite sure if this is the DC or the Attack roll, but either way, it's potent.
- Spell Like Abilities at +15 CL, and Greater Dispel, See Invisible, and Haste 3/day.
- 10 Cold and Fire resistance (Meh)
- DR 10/Epic (Meh)
- SR equal to CR+25 (Uh?)
- Fast Healing 20 (Meh at this point, but not one to turn down free lunch)
- +10 insight bonus to all saves
- +10 to all skills
- +15 to Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, and Cha
- And a bonus feat!

That's alot. The Attack bonus, save bonus, bonus HP, DR, and stat increase is kinda like a suped up 20 levels of Barbarian who's raging constantly. Then they get a huge AC boost, some handy Spell Like Abilities, SR, Fast Healing, and Epic Skill Focus for all Skills.

One of the things about LA is you don't get the BAB or Saves or HP you'd be getting if you had taken a class level instead. This template does not have such an issue. I wouldn't let a player play this.

[AzazelSephiroth]

Lols and in a normal game I would never get to play with it either!:smallbiggrin:
But I am getting a lenient DM, a birthday one shot and I still think I will be outshone by my sister`s mage:smallwink:

[KillianHawkeye]

oh, it looks like someone dont look in the table at the start of the monster section.

edit: i am wrong it is 26, it on page 156 of the epic level handbook.


Its in the Epic Level Handbook as part of a table

edit page 156

What? They put it in a table, but not in the actual entry for the monster/template?? :smallannoyed:

Bah!

Uh... um... "text trumps tables?"



I'll go away now.... :smallsigh:

[Morcleon]

finally since this is my birthday game, I get one free epic item... but what to choose :smalleek:

Ring of Sequester (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/rings.htm#sequestering). Invisibility, and immunity to divination. True Seeing and See Invisibility are divination. :smallamused:

That or a Ring of Universal Elemental Immunity. :)

[Lucid]

I wouldn't go with straight fighter if I were you. Considering you're the perfect human, why not be capable of anything?:smallbiggrin:

Factotum 5/Chameleon 7

You'd get all the skills(and with the ability boost from paragon you'd have enough skillpoints to use them), + your int bonus on all strength and dex checks. The ability to cast 5th level Arcane and Divine spells, and again your awesome paragon ability scores get you bonus spells and decent save DC's. You also get a floating feat you can change everyday, and lots of other nice things.

Also, assuming you get epic WBL, 9th lvl scrolls on average cost only 3,825 gp, and the DC to umd them is only 29. With your +10 to skills, a +6 cha mod(the lowest you would have using point-buy) you could get by with 12 ranks and always succeed!:smallcool:
Don't forget to ask your DM about buying partially charged wands for out-of-combat use.

Your biggest loss would be one iterative attack, but you could always use Divine Power for that.

Your biggest problem is your lack of hitdice, which makes you vulnerable to no save, just die-spells like blasphemy. You should definitely try to find a way to get protection from those.

If you decide to go a different route remember that even just one level of Factotum coupled with Able Learner would get you all skills as class skills.

And another thing, the quick (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#quick) trait increases your movement by 10 ft. for the low cost of 12hp. With the tripling from Paragon you'd have a base speed of 120ft.:smallamused:

Anyway, hope you have fun playing!:smallsmile:


Sources:
Factotum(Dungeonscape p.14)
Chameleon(Races of Destiny p.111/online (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b))
Able Learner(Races of Destiny p. 150)