Converting Sneak Attack to non-precision-based damage?

[Morph Bark]

I know Sneak Attack isn't a "type" of damage per se, but is there a way to convert it to, say, energy damage?

Other than Dragonfire Strike, because that is just way too feat intensive. :smallfrown:


EDIT: Basically, I mean to convert it to non-precision-based damage somehow.

[Flickerdart]

Sneak Attack is typed as whatever the damage of the base attack is. If you make a Sneak Attack with a Scorching Ray, the extra damage will be fire. If you make a Sneak Attack with an Enervation, the extra damage will be negative energy.

[deuxhero]

And if you make a SA with a Ray of Enfeeblement (or other ability score attacking spell), the extra damage is negative energy damage. That's one exception.

[Morph Bark]

Sneak Attack is typed as whatever the damage of the base attack is. If you make a Sneak Attack with a Scorching Ray, the extra damage will be fire. If you make a Sneak Attack with an Enervation, the extra damage will be negative energy.

I see. But won't SA-immune creatures, even those weak to that energy type, still be immune even then? Is there any way around that this way? Preferably lasting longer than just one round, as with Grave/Golem/Vine Strike.

[Squidfist]

If I remember correctly, there is a feat or maybe ability in a prestige class that lets you get half your sneak attack dice rounded down VS things that are immune to crits.

[ericgrau]

I see. But won't SA-immune creatures, even those weak to that energy type, still be immune even then? Is there any way around that this way? Preferably lasting longer than just one round, as with Grave/Golem/Vine Strike.
Wand of grave/golem/vine strike. Alternatively quick draw several scrolls and use a double weapon like a quarterstaff so that you don't have free-hand issues.

If you're a rogue/wizard like an arcane trickster you might consider extend spell to get the duration of those spells up to 2 rounds so you can use your swift on something else every other round.

[Averis Vol]

there's a rogue ACF in dungeonscape called penetrating strike, that's the one your looking for, when you flank a creature normally immune to SA you deal half your damage dice, rounded down and all you give up is trap sense. that being said a funny thing happened in a game i played, our daring outlaw rogue took this thinking it would be an undead heavy campaign and halfway through a dungeon rolled a 24 on a dc 25 trap and fell 30 ft into an ooze pit. at least he got half SA on the ooze though :smallbiggrin:

[Dusk Eclipse]

I think there is a feat in dragon that allowed you to trade Sneak attack for attack bonus, combine it with power attack and a 2 handed weapon and you can deal some serious damage.

[Cieyrin]

there's a rogue ACF in dungeonscape called penetrating strike, that's the one your looking for, when you flank a creature normally immune to SA you deal half your damage dice, rounded down and all you give up is trap sense. that being said a funny thing happened in a game i played, our daring outlaw rogue took this thinking it would be an undead heavy campaign and halfway through a dungeon rolled a 24 on a dc 25 trap and fell 30 ft into an ooze pit. at least he got half SA on the ooze though :smallbiggrin:

Penetrating Strike specifically requires flanking to work, so unfortunately doesn't work, since Oozes can't be flanked. Ran into that with my own Daring Outlaw. :smallannoyed:

I don't think there's a way to change Sneak Attack and similar into non-precision damage, just what kind of damage it deals. :smallfrown:

[Keld Denar]

Wand of grave/golem/vine strike. Alternatively quick draw several scrolls and use a double weapon like a quarterstaff so that you don't have free-hand issues.

Only Spell Trigger items fall under the Rules Compendium ruling that spells less than a standard actions take less than a standard action when activated. Scrolls are Spell Completion items. Plus, scrolls cost twice as much as wands, which adds up.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Penetrating Strike specifically requires flanking to work, so unfortunately doesn't work, since Oozes can't be flanked. Ran into that with my own Daring Outlaw. :smallannoyed:

I don't think there's a way to change Sneak Attack and similar into non-precision damage, just what kind of damage it deals. :smallfrown:

Darkstalker apart from making your stealth actually worthwhile let's you flank normally unflankable enemies (or at least the ones with all around vision like Beholders).

Edit: It is actually just allowing flanking creatures with All around vision.

[Averis Vol]

ohh, well.....pulled one over on the GM then. :smalltongue:

[Curmudgeon]

Sneak attack is always precision damage. I only know of one way to deal sneak attack damage without qualifying for a sneak attack: the Telling Blow feat (Player's Handbook II). This lets you qualify to deliver sneak attack damage whenever you make a critical hit.

[hisnamehere]

Telling Blow[/I] feat (Player's Handbook II). This lets you qualify to deliver sneak attack damage whenever you make a critical hit.

And this seems ridiculously powerful.

[Keld Denar]

It's not. Even with a keen kukiri, you still only have a 30% chance to threaten a crit, less than that with actual confirmation. If you have 4 or fewer attacks per round, its generally a better idea to move into a location where you flank to get a 100% chance of applying SA on one attack than full attacking and hoping 1 of those 4 crits (depending on weapon special properties).

Telling Blow does give you the ability to apply SA in a few corner cases, such as when the foe has concealment, the foe can't be flanked but can be crit (Imp Uncanny Dodge) or is outside of 30'. Even then, you are paying a feat (or 2 with Imp Crit), gold for a weapon special property (Keen if you don't take Imp Crit) and you still only have a 20-30% chance to apply it, assuming you can even hit and confirm.

[Cieyrin]

Darkstalker apart from making your stealth actually worthwhile let's you flank normally unflankable enemies (or at least the ones with all around vision like Beholders).

Edit: It is actually just allowing flanking creatures with All around vision.

Nice to know, certainly. Unfortunately, the immunity to flanking of Oozes is just a feature of being an ooze, as opposed to having All-Around Vision. :smallannoyed:

[gomipile]

It's not. Even with a keen kukiri, you still only have a 30% chance to threaten a crit, less than that with actual confirmation. If you have 4 or fewer attacks per round, its generally a better idea to move into a location where you flank to get a 100% chance of applying SA on one attack than full attacking and hoping 1 of those 4 crits (depending on weapon special properties).

Telling Blow does give you the ability to apply SA in a few corner cases, such as when the foe has concealment, the foe can't be flanked but can be crit (Imp Uncanny Dodge) or is outside of 30'. Even then, you are paying a feat (or 2 with Imp Crit), gold for a weapon special property (Keen if you don't take Imp Crit) and you still only have a 20-30% chance to apply it, assuming you can even hit and confirm.

I'm thinking of a Factotum with this feat UMDing a wand of Hunter's Mercy.

[Keld Denar]

I'm AFB, but isn't Hunter's Mercy a standard action spell? So either you are blowing a ton of Insp to activate this, or you are only using it every other round. Also, Factotii don't have natural SA, so again you are blowing Insp just to use this, or multiclassing Rogue. Then you are spending a feat and gold on this. And THEN, it still only affects your next attack, which is lackluster with Rapid Shot.

Nope, still meh. It looks neat, but is less attractive when you actually do the math on it.

[gomipile]

I'm AFB, but isn't Hunter's Mercy a standard action spell? So either you are blowing a ton of Insp to activate this, or you are only using it every other round. Also, Factotii don't have natural SA, so again you are blowing Insp just to use this, or multiclassing Rogue. Then you are spending a feat and gold on this. And THEN, it still only affects your next attack, which is lackluster with Rapid Shot.

Nope, still meh. It looks neat, but is less attractive when you actually do the math on it.

I was thinking of using it as a sniper shot, or as a single big attack in a party with a few heavy hitters against One Big Enemy™. Also, at high levels, the Rogue's entire sneak attack progression can be replicated with the Factotum's "capstone" Cunning Brilliance at class level 19.

[Keld Denar]

Again, lots invested for a highly situational and still rather meh end result. Even with +10d6 SA from Cunning Brilliance, its still only 1 shot. If you just look at base damage on a +5 bow with +6 Str for a Factotum who is attacking 5 times (3 iteratives + Rapid Shot + Haste), that's 55 damage alone each round, or 110 damage over 2 rounds, neglecting crits and not including base damage plus other bow abilities. +10d6 is 35 damage plus 3x 11 from the crit is 66 over 2 rounds. Less than stunning.

And that's neglecting other bow properties like Splitting or Exit Wounds or other things that add damage that isn't multiplied on a crit but that scales based on number of attacks.

[Curmudgeon]

Also, at high levels, the Rogue's entire sneak attack progression can be replicated with the Factotum's "capstone" Cunning Brilliance at class level 19.
Not reliably, it can't. Cunning Brilliance requires an extraordinary base class ability. The Rogue sneak attack ability is not designated as any particular type (certainly not declared as Extraordinary), and the Player's Handbook says on page 180 that an ability "not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like" is natural. So your plan is dependent on finding a DM who follows a disputable "guest Sage" answer in the FAQ, instead of following the actual rules.

[gomipile]

Not reliably, it can't. Cunning Brilliance requires an extraordinary base class ability. The Rogue sneak attack ability is not designated as any particular type (certainly not declared as Extraordinary), and the Player's Handbook says on page 180 that an ability "not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like" is natural. So your plan is dependent on finding a DM who follows a disputable "guest Sage" answer in the FAQ, instead of following the actual rules.

Fine, then he could copy the Spellthief's 5d6 (which is explicitly Ex) and the Scout's 5d6 of Skirmish (also Ex) instead.

Though it seems odd that the Spellthief's Sneak Attack can be Ex without the Rogue's also being Ex, considering the way they interact and stack.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

The feat "craven" as written is not sneak-attack damage, just extra damage.

[ericgrau]

Only Spell Trigger items fall under the Rules Compendium ruling that spells less than a standard actions take less than a standard action when activated. Scrolls are Spell Completion items. Plus, scrolls cost twice as much as wands, which adds up.

First level spells are not expensive even when spammed. You could be in an all zombie campaign and spend 5,000 gp after a year of real life time and 4-16 character levels. 16 the way most people play, but playing devil's advocate and having 13 encounters per level without a single critable foe you can still go 4 levels on 5,000 gp.

The only hard part that leaves is holding the scroll or else storing it and retrieving it as a free action such as with a glove of storing. You'll have to hire an NPC to put multiple spells on the same scroll, though organizing the monster types could get tricky.

Arcane tricksters have it easier. A 1 level dip into sorcerer or wizard can kind of do it but there are limitations and drawbacks.

[Elric VIII]

The only hard part that leaves is holding the scroll or else storing it and retrieving it as a free action such as with a glove of storing. You'll have to hire an NPC to put multiple spells on the same scroll, though organizing the monster types could get tricky.

TWF with quarterstaff, leaves at least 1 hand free for items. Use 2 wand chambers, for Vinestrike and Gravestrike/Golemstrike, plus 2 Demolition/Truedeath weapon crystals. Pair this with the Darkstalker feat and the only thing you have to worry about are Oozes.

Alternatively, TWF with Armor Spikes and Shield Spikes on a buckler. Then both hands are free all of the time. Although you would look silly. (Can you TWF with 2 spiked gauntlets and still hold things in your hands?)

[ericgrau]

So rules compendium says swift actions are ok on wands right? I think the whole claim that it needs to be done with scrolls threw me off. Ya a wand of all 3 would be easier to retrieve by various methods and cheaper.

[Curmudgeon]

Though it seems odd that the Spellthief's Sneak Attack can be Ex without the Rogue's also being Ex, considering the way they interact and stack.
Rogue sneak attack is the original, all-natural ability. Spellthief Extraordinary sneak attack only stacks because it's got an explicit override to the usual stacking limit:
If a spellthief gets a sneak attack bonus from another source (such as rogue levels), the bonuses on damage stack.



The feat "craven" as written is not sneak-attack damage, just extra damage.
It doesn't need to specify that that's sneak attack damage; the rules already have that covered, from the definition of damage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_damage&alpha=D):
The three main categories of damage are lethal damage, nonlethal damage, and ability damage. In addition, wherever it is relevant, the type of damage an attack deals is specified, since natural abilities, magic items, or spell effects may grant immunity to certain types of damage. Damage types include weapon damage (subdivided into bludgeoning, slashing, and piercing) and energy damage (positive, negative, acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic). So the highlighted statement says we've already got the specification of the damage type wherever it's relevant, as it would be if the creature is immune to sneak attack. That means, if there's no other specification, it's got to be included in what's already specified: the sneak attack.

[Gavinfoxx]

I like 2wf with a two handed spiked shield and armor spikes.

That way, you get shield bonus, two handed bonus, and two weapon fighting...

[Cieyrin]

TWF with quarterstaff, leaves at least 1 hand free for items. Use 2 wand chambers, for Vinestrike and Gravestrike/Golemstrike, plus 2 Demolition/Truedeath weapon crystals. Pair this with the Darkstalker feat and the only thing you have to worry about are Oozes.

Alternatively, TWF with Armor Spikes and Shield Spikes on a buckler. Then both hands are free all of the time. Although you would look silly. (Can you TWF with 2 spiked gauntlets and still hold things in your hands?)

Two problems: a) Shield Spikes aren't a weapon. Look at the weapon entries, there's a spiked versions of shields and normal shields. Armor spikes are their own weapons, though.
b) You can't add Shield Spikes to a buckler.

You can’t put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield.

Also the fact that you can't use a buckler as a weapon, unless you have something that says otherwise, which I can only think of PF having.


You can’t bash someone with a buckler.

You'd need a Light or Heavy Shield, spiked or not, to treat them as a weapon. I'd also think there's only one augment crystal slot on a shield but I'm not sure off-hand.

[kulosle]

I like 2wf with a two handed spiked shield and armor spikes.

That way, you get shield bonus, two handed bonus, and two weapon fighting...

Wait does this work? That sounds shady at best. I could see it making sense by raw but I don't know a DM that would allow it.

[Cieyrin]

Wait does this work? That sounds shady at best. I could see it making sense by raw but I don't know a DM that would allow it.

Makes perfect sense to me. Hold the shield in two hands and use the armor spikes as your off-hand weapon. You'd need Improved Shield Bash to keep the AC from the shield when you used it as a weapon but, otherwise, it works fine. It just takes one extra feat on top of the normal TWFing chain.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, that way, you can use this stuff:

Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Shield Bash
Power Attack

Something for the Core only Fighter to do, I suppose. Since you are power attacking with a two handed weapon, you get the extra damage... and you also get the strength and a half to damage with the shield.

Also, two handing a spiked shield is a historic fighting style.

[Cieyrin]

Yea, that way, you can use this stuff:

Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Shield Bash
Power Attack

Something for the Core only Fighter to do, I suppose. Since you are power attacking with a two handed weapon, you get the extra damage... and you also get the strength and a half to damage with the shield.

Also, two handing a spiked shield is a historic fighting style.

I just imagine a halfling or a gnome doing this, not necessarily humans. And yeah, totally dueling shields, there. I don't think they combined it with armor spikes, though.

[Gavinfoxx]

No, I'm pretty sure it wasn't combined with armor spikes... but you have to make some concessions to Fantasy....

[Elric VIII]

I didn't realize about the buckler spike, I was just thinking about minimizing ACP.

Something else to consider: Use 2 light shields. The armor bonuses don't stack, but you can pile on the nice non-numerical defensive buffs. I did this with a mounted character that had an animated shield and a buckler+lance.

[Cieyrin]

I didn't realize about the buckler spike, I was just thinking about minimizing ACP.

Something else to consider: Use 2 light shields. The armor bonuses don't stack, but you can pile on the nice non-numerical defensive buffs. I did this with a mounted character that had an animated shield and a buckler+lance.

Add a dastana, chahar-aina and bracers of armor with armor specials to fully separate into 6 different receptacles of armor special boosting! :smallbiggrin:

[Dusk Eclipse]

Dont forget a chained Greater Magic Vestment from an equal leveled cleric :smallamused:

[Elric VIII]

Add a dastana, chahar-aina and bracers of armor with armor specials to fully separate into 6 different receptacles of armor special boosting! :smallbiggrin:


Also, I'm pretty sure nothing prevents you from wearing Thistledown padding or any number of various cloth armors as well.

[Morph Bark]

Not reliably, it can't. Cunning Brilliance requires an extraordinary base class ability. The Rogue sneak attack ability is not designated as any particular type (certainly not declared as Extraordinary), and the Player's Handbook says on page 180 that an ability "not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like" is natural. So your plan is dependent on finding a DM who follows a disputable "guest Sage" answer in the FAQ, instead of following the actual rules.

Wasn't it also said in the Rules Compendium that non-specified class abilities are (Ex) abilities? :smallconfused:


The feat "craven" as written is not sneak-attack damage, just extra damage.

Yet it only applies when Sneak Attacking, so it only really adds to Sneak Attacks.


Yea, that way, you can use this stuff:

Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Shield Bash
Power Attack

Something for the Core only Fighter to do, I suppose. Since you are power attacking with a two handed weapon, you get the extra damage... and you also get the strength and a half to damage with the shield.

Also, two handing a spiked shield is a historic fighting style.

But how will the Core Fighter get his Sneak Attack? *ahem*:smallwink:

[Dr. Simon]

I know Sneak Attack isn't a "type" of damage per se, but is there a way to convert it to, say, energy damage?

Other than Dragonfire Strike, because that is just way too feat intensive. :smallfrown:


EDIT: Basically, I mean to convert it to non-precision-based damage somehow.

I don't see why you couldn't agree a simple class variant with the DM. If you, say, decide that it makes more sense for your character to deliver Fire damage with a sneak attack strike (perhaps due to some kind of efreet or elemental heritage) then probably the number of foes with fire resistance of some kind that exist that you can't affect will roughly balance the number of sneak-attack immune foes that you suddenly can affect.

Although, you will get an advantage against foes with vulnerability and some energy types are rare for resistances (sonic, for example), so it would, I think, be marginally more powerful. However, like favoured enemy, you are still creating a character that relies on the DM providing situations where it will be useful.

If you wanted to swap energy types around at will, I think that at minimum would require a feat or two.

Edit: Of course, to preserve balance, you'd need to ensure that the bonus damage was still only applied when your opponent was off-guard in some way, the same circumstances as a standard sneak attack.

[Squidfist]

Two problems: a) Shield Spikes aren't a weapon. Look at the weapon entries, there's a spiked versions of shields and normal shields. Armor spikes are their own weapons, though.
b) You can't add Shield Spikes to a buckler.


Also the fact that you can't use a buckler as a weapon, unless you have something that says otherwise, which I can only think of PF having.



You'd need a Light or Heavy Shield, spiked or not, to treat them as a weapon. I'd also think there's only one augment crystal slot on a shield but I'm not sure off-hand.

Buckler Axe, Races of Stone. I think that's what it's called at least.

[Cieyrin]

Buckler Axe, Races of Stone. I think that's what it's called at least.

Well, see, that's an exotic weapon that is based off of the buckler. Tortoise Blades are the other option and you're paying a feat privilege to count it as a weapon, unless you're a Dwarf or a Gnome who switches their weapon familiarity to one of those, since the Dwarven Buckler Axe is a Dwarven weapon and a Gnomish Tortoise Blade is a Gnomish weapon, respectively. Then there's the matter if you want to use that augment crystal to sneak attack, you have to attack with that weapon. It's kinda a mess, really.


Also, I'm pretty sure nothing prevents you from wearing Thistledown padding or any number of various cloth armors as well.

I don't think Thistledown Padding is enchantable, at least as armor, since you don't get benefit from it by itself, you have to wear it with Medium armor or heavier, IIRC. The Dastana and Chahar-aina only works with light armor, since it's supposed to supplement it, which is already taken up for the most part in armor heavier than Light. And really, you have 6-8 different armor spots to enchant, do you really need to further distribute that that? :smalltongue: Light Armor, Dastana, Chahar-aina, Bracers, 2 Bucklers and an Animated Shield is a lot of investment, honestly. I mean, I've done weapon passives by enchanting gauntlets as weapons but this is getting patently ridiculous but then stacking that much stuff is, isn't it? :smallwink:

[Curmudgeon]

Wasn't it also said in the Rules Compendium that non-specified class abilities are (Ex) abilities? :smallconfused:
No, quite the contrary. Here's what the book says (on page 118):
Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like. They’re rarely identified as natural—that’s assumed—and they rarely take a distinct action to use. So any non-designated class feature is assumed to be natural: i.e., a Rogue is just naturally good at picking vulnerable attack spots on their enemies (within the limits of living creatures with discernible anatomies). Some people are naturals when it comes to sports; some are naturally talented musicians; and Rogues have a natural gift for hitting their enemies where it hurts.

[Elric VIII]

I don't think Thistledown Padding is enchantable, at least as armor, since you don't get benefit from it by itself, you have to wear it with Medium armor or heavier, IIRC. The Dastana and Chahar-aina only works with light armor, since it's supposed to supplement it, which is already taken up for the most part in armor heavier than Light. And really, you have 6-8 different armor spots to enchant, do you really need to further distribute that that? :smalltongue: Light Armor, Dastana, Chahar-aina, Bracers, 2 Bucklers and an Animated Shield is a lot of investment, honestly. I mean, I've done weapon passives by enchanting gauntlets as weapons but this is getting patently ridiculous but then stacking that much stuff is, isn't it? :smallwink:

One of my characters was a crafter and I thought Arms and Armor fit with his theme more than Wonderous Item. So I used all of the useful passives I could find. Some DMs might have a problem with doing that with every character, but I did a decent enough job justifying it.

[Sutremaine]

Factotii
Factota, assuming 'do everything' can take a plural of 'do everythings'. Factotum as a noun is like virus as a noun -- it comes from Latin but isn't used as a Latin speaker would have used it.

[Morph Bark]

I don't think Thistledown Padding is enchantable, at least as armor, since you don't get benefit from it by itself, you have to wear it with Medium armor or heavier, IIRC. The Dastana and Chahar-aina only works with light armor, since it's supposed to supplement it, which is already taken up for the most part in armor heavier than Light. And really, you have 6-8 different armor spots to enchant, do you really need to further distribute that that? :smalltongue: Light Armor, Dastana, Chahar-aina, Bracers, 2 Bucklers and an Animated Shield is a lot of investment, honestly. I mean, I've done weapon passives by enchanting gauntlets as weapons but this is getting patently ridiculous but then stacking that much stuff is, isn't it? :smallwink:

Where are Thistledown Padding, Dastana and Chahar-aina from? The idea of more items that add stacking armor bonuses is intruiging, as is cloth armors. I've seen few cloth armor items, especially non-magical ones. The only one I can readily recall is one from the Iron Kingdoms for 20 gp or such, providing only a +1 bonus, but I don't think it stacks with regular armor.


Factota, assuming 'do everything' can take a plural of 'do everythings'. Factotum as a noun is like virus as a noun -- it comes from Latin but isn't used as a Latin speaker would have used it.

Hence why it uses the standard English pluralization of adding an -s to the end. :smallwink:

[Keld Denar]

I don't care if its proper...factotii sounds cooler, and that's all I care about.

[Cieyrin]

Where are Thistledown Padding, Dastana and Chahar-aina from? The idea of more items that add stacking armor bonuses is intruiging, as is cloth armors. I've seen few cloth armor items, especially non-magical ones. The only one I can readily recall is one from the Iron Kingdoms for 20 gp or such, providing only a +1 bonus, but I don't think it stacks with regular armor.

Thistledown Padding is from Races of the Wild. Dastana and Charar-aina are from Arms and Equipment Guide/Oriental Adventures. The OA 3.5 update included errata for both, which just said that enchanting them with an enhancement bonus to armor doesn't stack, even though the normal armor bonus does.

Also, I love Greatcoats and I do believe they have the same restriction as Dastana and Chahar-aina do with what kinds of armor it stacks with. So if you can get that okayed, that'd be another armor slot you can fill in. The Armored Greatcoat does give +2 Armor and DR 5/Bludgeoning, so it's NICE. :smallbiggrin:

[Morph Bark]

Thistledown Padding is from Races of the Wild. Dastana and Charar-aina are from Arms and Equipment Guide/Oriental Adventures. The OA 3.5 update included errata for both, which just said that enchanting them with an enhancement bonus to armor doesn't stack, even though the normal armor bonus does.

Also, I love Greatcoats and I do believe they have the same restriction as Dastana and Chahar-aina do with what kinds of armor it stacks with. So if you can get that okayed, that'd be another armor slot you can fill in. The Armored Greatcoat does give +2 Armor and DR 5/Bludgeoning, so it's NICE. :smallbiggrin:

Checked both OA and Iron Kingdoms Character Guide and they all stack. +8 armor for much cheaper than full plate! Rogues be tankin'! :smallbiggrin:

[dextercorvia]

TWF with quarterstaff, leaves at least 1 hand free for items. Use 2 wand chambers, for Vinestrike and Gravestrike/Golemstrike, plus 2 Demolition/Truedeath weapon crystals. Pair this with the Darkstalker feat and the only thing you have to worry about are Oozes.

Alternatively, TWF with Armor Spikes and Shield Spikes on a buckler. Then both hands are free all of the time. Although you would look silly. (Can you TWF with 2 spiked gauntlets and still hold things in your hands?)


Two problems: a) Shield Spikes aren't a weapon. Look at the weapon entries, there's a spiked versions of shields and normal shields. Armor spikes are their own weapons, though.
b) You can't add Shield Spikes to a buckler.


Also the fact that you can't use a buckler as a weapon, unless you have something that says otherwise, which I can only think of PF having.



You'd need a Light or Heavy Shield, spiked or not, to treat them as a weapon. I'd also think there's only one augment crystal slot on a shield but I'm not sure off-hand.

Dwarven Buckler Axe (RoS) solves this.

To the OP, Crippling Strike + Savvy Rogue will let you deal strength damage even if they are immune to SA.

Edit: Completely missed the second page, so was ninja'd on the Buckler Axe.

[Cieyrin]

Dwarven Buckler Axe (RoS) solves this.

To the OP, Crippling Strike + Savvy Rogue will let you deal strength damage even if they are immune to SA.

As I said earlier, it would but you'd either spend a feat for the privilege or be forced to be a Gnome or Dwarf for switch your Weapon Familiarity to either the Buckler Axe or the Gnomish Tortoise Knife.

[dextercorvia]

As I said earlier, it would but you'd either spend a feat for the privilege or be forced to be a Gnome or Dwarf for switch your Weapon Familiarity to either the Buckler Axe or the Gnomish Tortoise Knife.

That's true. I somehow missed the second page when I posted.

What is the consensus about combining Buckler Axe with secondary Claw attacks. Should that interfere?

[Cieyrin]

That's true. I somehow missed the second page when I posted.

What is the consensus about combining Buckler Axe with secondary Claw attacks. Should that interfere?

I'm trying to think of how you'd wield one and keep your hand free enough to claw people and I'm failing to think of it working terribly well. I think of a Buckler Axe being held like a target shield so you have enough control to make it a threat, which I think would probably preclude using the claws on that hand.

[dextercorvia]

I'm trying to think of how you'd wield one and keep your hand free enough to claw people and I'm failing to think of it working terribly well. I think of a Buckler Axe being held like a target shield so you have enough control to make it a threat, which I think would probably preclude using the claws on that hand.

If it was held, then it wouldn't count as a buckler. I'll take my question to a new thread, to avoid derail. Just realized it was a tangent to a tangent.