Bad realization about Serini

[Ovanaida]

Remember how Serini's journal had hearts around Girard? Also how Girard mentioned that Serini had the coordinates to his gate? And how Girard has children in the family tree? What if Serini was the mother?! Serini is most likely dead too then isn't she?

[Othesemo]

Let us consider this- halflings usually have a lifespan incrementally longer than humans. Soon was quite old (to the point of death) when Shojo was maybe four.

I doubt that she was alive in the first place.

[SaintRidley]

Let us consider this- halflings usually have a lifespan incrementally longer than humans. Soon was quite old (to the point of death) when Shojo was maybe four.

I doubt that she was alive in the first place.

If by incrementally longer you mean that maximum halfling age, barring life-extending feats and the like, is roughly 80 years longer than any human has ever lived, then sure.

[Gift Jeraff]

Let us consider this- halflings usually have a lifespan incrementally longer than humans. Soon was quite old (to the point of death) when Shojo was maybe four.

I doubt that she was alive in the first place.Soon was clearly rather aged when they started adventuring, and only 66ish years have passed since then. I doubt she has died of age.

I also doubt she died of Familicide. I would guess that Xykon killed her to get the diary, but something about that feels wrong, too.

[Snails]

A half-halfling would be a quarterling? Is that taller or shorter still?

[FujinAkari]

Remember how Serini's journal had hearts around Girard? Also how Girard mentioned that Serini had the coordinates to his gate? And how Girard has children in the family tree? What if Serini was the mother?! Serini is most likely dead too then isn't she?

Only if Girard himself were still alive and, considering that he wasn't on the illusion rotation... he was most likely not :P

[Othesemo]

If by incrementally longer you mean that maximum halfling age, barring life-extending feats and the like, is roughly 80 years longer than any human has ever lived, then sure.

Granted, there is the slim chance that Serini rolled five consecutive natural twenties, in which case she would be quite well off (granted, with a -6 to all physical scores). This is, of course, assuming that she started adventuring as soon as she could (22), that the order of the scribble adventured for no more than one year (couldn't find the specifics on how long this actually was, so I assume 1), and that Soon started adventuring when he was fifty years old, and rolled very poorly on his maximum age.

Meanwhile, if we decide instead that average rolls were made, and that Serini started adventuring later in her life (say, 30), and that Soon was still in his prime when he started (which seems likely, given that he appears to have a full, black head of hair in this first picture (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html), and he served well as a melee fighter in exactly the way that a middle aged man would not- heck, he doesn't seem to have even reached middle age in the final panel), we get the following results-

Serini- Maximum age 155. -30 for early life*, -1 for adventuring, which leaves her 124 years after the order disbanded.

Soon- Maximum age 91. -23 for early life*, -1 for adventuring, which leaves him with 67 more years to enjoy his life.

So, Soon dies after 67 years, leaving Serini with 57 more years, maximum, assuming that she isn't killed during her remaining adventuring days. ~66 years pass, and that leaves Serini with a remaining life span of... -9 years. Possibly less if the OOtScr adventured for more than a year. So yes, I think it improbable that Serini was still alive when Familicide was cast. Possible, if Soon was very unlucky, or she was somewhat lucky, (or a combination of the two), but still improbable (especially considering that she likely spent a great deal of time after the OOtScr broke up adventuring, presumably solo).

*This assumes that both of them spent some time on their own prior to the founding of the order- specifically, five years each. It doesn't actually make any difference- the difference between their ages remains the same.

Oh, and @ Gift Jeraff. I fail to see how Soon is at all 'clearly aged' in any of the panels I linked to. His hair is dark, and he has plenty of it. He gives no indication of physical frailty- quite the opposite, really, and never mentions his age.

[Emperor Flumph]

Granted, there is the slim chance that Serini rolled five consecutive natural twenties, in which case she would be quite well off (granted, with a -6 to all physical scores). This is, of course, assuming that she started adventuring as soon as she could (22), that the order of the scribble adventured for no more than one year (couldn't find the specifics on how long this actually was, so I assume 1), and that Soon started adventuring when he was fifty years old, and rolled very poorly on his maximum age.

Meanwhile, if we decide instead that average rolls were made, and that Serini started adventuring later in her life (say, 30), and that Soon was still in his prime when he started (which seems likely, given that he appears to have a full, black head of hair in this first picture (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html), and he served well as a melee fighter in exactly the way that a middle aged man would not- heck, he doesn't seem to have even reached middle age in the final panel), we get the following results-

Serini- Maximum age 155. -30 for early life*, -1 for adventuring, which leaves her 124 years after the order disbanded.

Soon- Maximum age 91. -23 for early life*, -1 for adventuring, which leaves him with 67 more years to enjoy his life.

So, Soon dies after 67 years, leaving Serini with 57 more years, maximum, assuming that she isn't killed during her remaining adventuring days. ~66 years pass, and that leaves Serini with a remaining life span of... -9 years. Possibly less if the OOtScr adventured for more than a year. So yes, I think it improbable that Serini was still alive when Familicide was cast. Possible, if Soon was very unlucky, or she was somewhat lucky, (or a combination of the two), but still improbable (especially considering that she likely spent a great deal of time after the OOtScr broke up adventuring, presumably solo).

*This assumes that both of them spent some time on their own prior to the founding of the order- specifically, five years each. It doesn't actually make any difference- the difference between their ages remains the same.

Oh, and @ Gift Jeraff. I fail to see how Soon is at all 'clearly aged' in any of the panels I linked to. His hair is dark, and he has plenty of it. He gives no indication of physical frailty- quite the opposite, really, and never mentions his age.
You've made a mistake in the timeline. It wasn't 66 years ago that Soon passed command to Shojo's uncle. It was 66 years ago that the Order started adventuring. If we take your speculations of their respective ages to be true, Serini has 58 years left to live as of now.

[Firemeier]

Only if Girard himself were still alive and, considering that he wasn't on the illusion rotation... he was most likely not :P

Nope, Familicide would only require Girard's children to be alive to kill their mother/ Serini. Just to be sure about this, the OP didn't mean that Serini was Girard's mother but rather his love interest and mother of his children.

[factotum]

Let us consider this- halflings usually have a lifespan incrementally longer than humans. Soon was quite old (to the point of death) when Shojo was maybe four.

I doubt that she was alive in the first place.

We know for a fact that Dorukan was still alive a few months before the online comic started, and Serini would have a longer lifespan than him--assuming, of course, she didn't get killed adventuring, which is entirely possible!

[KillianHawkeye]

Remember how Serini's journal had hearts around Girard? Also how Girard mentioned that Serini had the coordinates to his gate? And how Girard has children in the family tree? What if Serini was the mother?! Serini is most likely dead too then isn't she?

A) Serini had the coordinates of EVERYBODY's gate. It was in her adventuring journal, which she apparently kept WHILE ADVENTURING to seal all the rifts in the Snarl's prison.

B) Hearts means Serini had a crush on Girard. That does not mean that they ever hooked up or that she is the mother of Girard's bloodline. There is absolutely zero evidence at this point that Girard had any similar feelings for Serini or that they continued to have contact in any way after the Order of the Scribble parted ways.

C) Splitting up and never seeing each other again was actually Serini's idea, so she's probably more likely to actually do it.

Also, NOTE: According to #277 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html), the Order of the Scribble's adventures together lasted for "years" (plural).

[FujinAkari]

Nope, Familicide would only require Girard's children to be alive to kill their mother/ Serini.

Drat... I guess that's true :)

[NerfTW]

Dorukan was alive six months prior to the events of Origin of PCs. He still seemed to have quite a few years left. There's no reason Serini couldn't also be alive. Soon was much older than the rest of the Order of the Scribble.

As for her dying as a result of Familicide, I find that unlikely for two reasons. First, we have no indication that she and Girard were breaking the oath. You would have to assume that she not only had a child, but then sent it to the western continent on it's own to join him.

The second is that at this point, Serini is the only source of concrete, first hand information on the gates. In terms of plot, given that Kraagor's gate is probably the final confrontation, it wouldn't make sense not to have here there to confirm what exactly went on 60 years ago.

[Winter]

Dorukan was very young when he joined the scribblers, we are told. So if Serini was also not old (for hobbits) it's very well possible she's still alive.

I doubt Xykon would kill of such an important character off screen without us ever hearing any sign of that. Especially: If he had killed her, we would have seen her in the SoD-spoiler:
gem
as I doubt Xykon would carry two of those.

Yes, it's possible Xykon someday whips out a second of those and says "Yeah, I killed that halfling for the diary" but I still do not really think that.
It might be Serini had died and Xykon got it from her grave, though. The question stays... how did Xykon even find the diary? If we learn that, we might be much nearer to the answer.

From a story-point-of-view it makes sense to have Serini being still alive and being encountered last: She can provide new insight into the plot and tell us stuff we had not known about (or that we knew the "wrong" way). So right before the story ends and leads towards the Final Encounter, we meet some wise, old NPC who can give us alot of the things we need to know before the end of the story.

[Fish]

I reckon we'll see Serini in some form, just as we see a recording of Girard and a ghost of Soon. It may not necessarily mean she's living.

[veti]

A half-halfling would be a quarterling? Is that taller or shorter still?

This question so irritated a DM friend of mine once that he created the race of full-blooded "Ling".

[Boogastreehouse]

I have never seen a D&D edition or setting in which Humans and Halflings could interbreed.

Rich is certainly allowed to change this to suit his setting, of course, if he so desires.

[martianmister]

This question so irritated a DM friend of mine once that he created the race of full-blooded "Ling".

That would be "Human".

[Othesemo]

You've made a mistake in the timeline. It wasn't 66 years ago that Soon passed command to Shojo's uncle. It was 66 years ago that the Order started adventuring. If we take your speculations of their respective ages to be true, Serini has 58 years left to live as of now.

Um.. actually it was. Look at the comic I linked to- and I quote (Shojo), "When I was but a boy, learning at my father's knee, an aged Soon came to him and transferred command of the Sapphire Guard... he died shortly thereafter (presumably of old age)" Shojo apparently ruled the city for over fifty years, and likely didn't start until his father passed away.

[Winter]

I have never seen a D&D edition or setting in which Humans and Halflings could interbreed.

I never saw one where it was explicitly forbidden and given that basically everyone and everything can interbreed with everyone and everything (especially humans!). The size difference is even worse with humans and giants and we still have half-giants.
Therefore, I do not see why this should not be possible in core D&D.

[hamishspence]

Half-giants are created magically.

Half-ogres and half-trolls, however, do fit the argument.

[DBear]

I know of at least one webcomic where a human-halfling pairing produced children.

I think it rather unlikely that Serini would've been the mother of Girard's children, as the family tree shows Girard's children to be no shorter than the others of their generation.

[Fargazer]

Um.. actually it was. Look at the comic I linked to- and I quote (Shojo), "When I was but a boy, learning at my father's knee, an aged Soon came to him and transferred command of the Sapphire Guard... he died shortly thereafter (presumably of old age)" Shojo apparently ruled the city for over fifty years, and likely didn't start until his father passed away.

The comic referenced in the first post (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html) seems to dictate that its been just over "about 65" years ago. Even if Serini was 30 at the time, she would not have reached venerable age yet, even if she rolled all 1's on her maximum age, it would still seem that she has years yet to live.

[jere7my]

I have never seen a D&D edition or setting in which Humans and Halflings could interbreed.

Tolkien's halflings were in fact an offshoot of Man. This doesn't necessarily mean they could interbreed, but it seems more likely than half-elves.

[rgrekejin]

B) Hearts means Serini had a crush on Girard. That does not mean that they ever hooked up or that she is the mother of Girard's bloodline. There is absolutely zero evidence at this point that Girard had any similar feelings for Serini or that they continued to have contact in any way after the Order of the Scribble parted ways.

Yeah, this. Other than the hearts in her diary, there is pretty much no evidence to suggest that Serini ever hooked up with Girard, yet alone had children with him. Somewhere, I'm sure Therkla's diary has a picture of Elan with hearts drawn around it. This is not a solid basis for inference.

And, to channel Elan a bit, having two primary gate defenders die in exactly the same way is anticlimactic and lame, so the laws of drama preclude it from happening. What is much more interesting to me is the fact that Xykon has her diary. How did that happen? That's the story I'm interested in.

[Flame of Anor]

Tolkien's halflings were in fact an offshoot of Man. This doesn't necessarily mean they could interbreed, but it seems more likely than half-elves.

Given that half-elves 100% definitely exist in both settings, I don't know what "more likely than half-elves" would mean.

[Forikroder]

Remember how Serini's journal had hearts around Girard? Also how Girard mentioned that Serini had the coordinates to his gate? And how Girard has children in the family tree? What if Serini was the mother?! Serini is most likely dead too then isn't she?

remember how Serini isnt in the family tree?
remember that all the drake tooth clan arent 3ft 2?

[jere7my]

Given that half-elves 100% definitely exist in both settings, I don't know what "more likely than half-elves" would mean.

Given that Tolkien's elves and Tolkien's humans, whose origins are entirely distinct, can interbreed, then it seems likely that humans and human-offshoots like hobbits can also interbreed. It's possible that they can't, of course, but there are more logistical barriers to overcome before you can have half-elves than there are for half-halflings.

[Emperor Flumph]

Um.. actually it was. Look at the comic I linked to- and I quote (Shojo), "When I was but a boy, learning at my father's knee, an aged Soon came to him and transferred command of the Sapphire Guard... he died shortly thereafter (presumably of old age)" Shojo apparently ruled the city for over fifty years, and likely didn't start until his father passed away.
I quote Shojo as well: Sixty-six years ago, a paladin from Azure City named Soon Kim lost his wife to one of the rifts..." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)

[rgrekejin]

Um.. actually it was. Look at the comic I linked to- and I quote (Shojo), "When I was but a boy, learning at my father's knee, an aged Soon came to him and transferred command of the Sapphire Guard... he died shortly thereafter (presumably of old age)" Shojo apparently ruled the city for over fifty years, and likely didn't start until his father passed away.

I do not recall exactly where, and I could be mis-remembering, but I believe at some point or another the Giant stated something to the effect that Shojo's apparent age with respect to the rest of the time table doesn't appear to add up quite right. If I'm not completely crazy, perhaps someone with a better memory than me can provide a link to the exact post.

[Othesemo]

That would be good if someone could provide a link. As is, it would appear that those who disagree with me and I are following valid lines of reasoning and ending at opposing conclusions.

Imma gonna go scan the IGC real quick to see if I can find anything.

EDIT: Nothing's there, as of yet. At this point, though, I think we can assume that it's just a years-old contradiction. And I think that the explicitly stated number trumps my induction pretty soundly, as far as settling it goes, so I'll go ahead and withdraw.

[factotum]

That would be "Human".

No it wouldn't. If a "halfling" is supposed to be interpreted as a human crossbreed with this "Ling" race, then clearly Lings can't be human or the resulting offspring would also be human!

[BaronOfHell]

As is, it would appear that those who disagree with me and I are following valid lines of reasoning and ending at opposing conclusions.

At this point, though, I think we can assume that it's just a years-old contradiction.
I beg to differ. Please correct me, if I'm wrong. I see the information goes like this:
66 years ago the ootscribble began adventuring.
A couple of years may pass.
Shojo hands over command of the Sapphire Guard to the ruler of Azure City.
Some years later Shojo starts ruling the city, which he does for ~50 years.

Since Shojo was in his 70's according to Roy, it follows the he must have been in his 20's when he began ruling the city. Since the time period between 66 years ago and 50 years ago is 16 years and there are some years in between there are easily enough room for all the numbers to make sense. We don't know the exact order, but an example should be sufficient. So let's assume Shojo was 10 when Soon handed over command of the Sapphire guard, that ootscribble had adventures for 4 years and 2 years later Soon had entered a new age category.
Shortly afterwards Soon became a ghost martyr through some magical means.

This leaves 16-6=10 years for Shojo to not be ruler of the city. Easily enough time to enter the needed age before he himself began ruling the city and his own father advancing into another age category (not to mention the possibility of assassination, etc.). Though I'm not certain if they had resurrect back then at their disposal.

So no, I don't see how ~120 years should have passed.

[Bogardan_Mage]

Shojo was in his 70's according to Roy
Roy called Shojo an "octogenarian" so he was in his 80's if we accept Roy's word as truth. That's a big "if" in my opinion, though, since Roy doesn't necessarily know Shojo's age any better than, say, Belkar does when he says Shojo was "easily pushing 80 years old" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0524.html) (as in, not yet 80). Or Shojo himself, claiming to be capable of advancing another age category (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0288.html) which he obviously couldn't do if he was already Venerable. Circumstantial? Absolutely, but no less than Roy's "octogenarian" claim.

Sorry for the sidetrack, but that's such a popular misconception when discussing the timeline that I felt it should be examined.

[factotum]

I think Shojo ought to know his own age better than Roy or Belkar, though, so the age category thing is probably the best indicator of age...he's clearly less than 70, but probably not too much less than that. That would still imply that the "aged Soon" coming to give the sapphire to Shojo's father happened only a few years after the Scribble adventures, so either Soon was older than he looked during those adventures, or he was younger than he looked when the sapphire was handed over.

[Gift Jeraff]

Shojo is listed as 77 in WaXP, if I remember correctly.

[Aedilred]

And, to channel Elan a bit, having two primary gate defenders die in exactly the same way is anticlimactic and lame, so the laws of drama preclude it from happening.
Energy Drain -> Soul Bind?

[rgrekejin]

Energy Drain -> Soul Bind?


I'm not sure what you're getting at. Xykon only used Energy Drain on Dorukan. Although I suppose you have a point that both gates fell due to assault by Redcloak and Xykon, the battles that took place for control of the gates were pretty different.

What I'm really getting at, I guess, is that having one Gate's defenses neutralized by familicide is a (mostly) unexpected and shocking twist. Repeating it again later in the story wouldn't have near the same emotional impact. And it would seem really lazy to boot.

[Winter]

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Xykon only used Energy Drain on Durokan.

Yes, he did the second.

He killed Dorukan with Energy Drains and then used Soul Bind.

[RNGgod]

Yes, he did the second.

He killed Dorukan with Energy Drains and then used Soul Bind.

He means Energy Drain was not used in the first battle.

[Rorrik]

A half-halfling would be a quarterling? Is that taller or shorter still?

I'd say a half-halfling, half human(fulling) would actually be a three-quarterling, and be in between, from their you could get five-eighthling, a seven-eighthling and so on.

[Bogardan_Mage]

I think Shojo ought to know his own age better than Roy or Belkar, though, so the age category thing is probably the best indicator of age...he's clearly less than 70, but probably not too much less than that.
I don't put much stock in that quote, because it was said in jest. My point is more that there are equally solid (that is to say, equally flimsy) references that contradict Roy's "octogenarian" line and people should stop taking that as absolute canon. I don't think any of the references I listed give a definative age for Shojo, and if he is indeed listed as 77 in an official source then he's 77.

[Fargazer]

That would be good if someone could provide a link. As is, it would appear that those who disagree with me and I are following valid lines of reasoning and ending at opposing conclusions.

Imma gonna go scan the IGC real quick to see if I can find anything.

EDIT: Nothing's there, as of yet. At this point, though, I think we can assume that it's just a years-old contradiction. And I think that the explicitly stated number trumps my induction pretty soundly, as far as settling it goes, so I'll go ahead and withdraw.

Shojo:

66 years ago,a paladin from Azure city named Soon Kim lost his wife to one of the rifts (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)

For 47 years I have commanded the Sapphire Guard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html)

Over the course of those 19 years, Soon aged, passed on control to Shojo's father, then to Shojo.

[hamishspence]

I don't think any of the references I listed give a definative age for Shojo, and if he is indeed listed as 77 in an official source then he's 77.

To be precise he's listed as 72 in one official source (War & XPs, the characters page).

[ChaosEcho]

To be precise he's listed as 72 in one official source (War & XPs, the characters page).

Yeah, that means that at the time Soon discovered the gate, Shojo was 6 years old. He's obviously still prepubescent in the flashback here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html); Shojo can't be more than about 12 in that picture, so that leaves 6 years MAX for a middle-aged Soon to adventure with the Order, grow old and die. A bit of a stretch, so if the Giant mentioned elsewhere that it doesn't add up, that's probably what he means.