Persistent spell= worth it?

[Dancingdeath]

I can see how having a spell that lasts all day is awesome. What is not however is the +6 spell level it applies to the spell cast. Am I missing something here? Is there a way to make that lower so it's manageable? Because to me, it kinda sucks.:smallconfused:

[Rhaegar14]

Divine Metamagic out of Complete Divine lets you fuel one Metamagic feat of your choice with Turn/Rebuke attempts instead of increased spell level. Combine with Nightstick and Extra Turning.

[Ravens_cry]

Divine Metamagic out of Complete Divine lets you fuel one Metamagic feat of your choice with Turn/Rebuke attempts instead of increased spell level. Combine with Nightsticks and Extra Turning.
I have rectified the statement made to a more correct format.
Surprising what a single letter can do.

[Aegis013]

Things like Incantatrix, and various other metamagic cheese (DMM was mentioned, but also things like Practical and Easy Metamagic) can make use of it without the +6 spell level adjustment.

It's extremely powerful when used right. On your out-of-the-box wizard? It's still pretty swell at high levels, but not insanely amazing.

[Coidzor]

Divine Metamagic makes it very worthwhile, especially with items that can provide turn undead attempts to mitigate or replace the amount of personal turn attempts one has to burn to power it. From Complete Divine, IIRC. Prior to Errata it applied to all metamagic, IIRC, but post errata it's for whatever specific metamagic feat you take for it. So it takes 3 feats, Extend, Persistent, and then DMM: Persistent.

Great for clerics and other types. Greatly aids the CoDzilla.

Others, such as Incantatrixes or Incantators are able to mitigate the cost through other means.

It pretty much exists to be mitigated, essentially.

[INoKnowNames]

I can see how having a spell that lasts all day is awesome. What is not however is the +6 spell level it applies to the spell cast. Am I missing something here? Is there a way to make that lower so it's manageable? Because to me, it kinda sucks.:smallconfused:

I'm not very smart, but I can go ahead and tell you this much.

2 Words: Divine Metamagic.

Clerics are already very good characters, what with the massive spell list and great prestige classes. But Divine Metamagic allows them to Persist more spells than they would be able to, while still freeing up slots to... you know, do Godly Cleric Things.

Pretty sure there's a way around that adjustment with other feats (for say the Wizard), but that's how the Cleric does it (correct me if I'm wrong).

And of course. Swordsaged.

[Bovine Colonel]

3 levels in the Incantatrix prestige class lets you apply metamagic to an active effect with nothing but a Spellcraft check iirc.

[Alienist]

Be an artificer?

[watchwood]

As mentioned before, the Clericzilla with DMM Persist can outfight the majority of melee classes, and maintain it's full casting abilities. Toss in your prestige class of choice and you're looking at some powerful mojo. I went Church Inquisitor, since it hands out some nice perks for a fairly low cost.

[Rhaegar14]

I have rectified the statement made to a more correct format.
Surprising what a single letter can do.

Yes, by RAW, you want to do Nightsticks, but I really don't think any sane DM would let that fly if he looked at your character build long enough to realize what you were trying to do with stacking them. XD

[Dancingdeath]

I have read and been awed by the DMM feat. Good lord. This is getting taken as SOON as I can get it. It'll take me a few levels to get the feats I need, but I'm going to get and run with it. This should be awesome.

[INoKnowNames]

I have read and been awed by the DMM feat. Good lord. This is getting taken as SOON as I can get it. It'll take me a few levels to get the feats I need, but I'm going to get and run with it. This should be awesome.

Try not to make the rest of your party cry.

[Rhaegar14]

I have read and been awed by the DMM feat. Good lord. This is getting taken as SOON as I can get it. It'll take me a few levels to get the feats I need, but I'm going to get and run with it. This should be awesome.

You want to make your next major magic item (after a Nightstick) a Ring of Counterspells, or some other method in this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851) thread of being immune to Dispel Magic. If your DM doesn't let you stack those Nightsticks (Libris Mortis, a rod that gives you +4 turning attempts per day), having your Persistent buffs dispelled is pretty horrible.

[navar100]

Persistent Spell used to be +4 levels. Then people yelled and screamed. They changed it to +6 levels, effectively saying it doesn't exist because +6 levels is just not worth it. That's when people use various tricks like Divine Metamagic, nightsticks, Incantatrix, and all sorts of rules lawyering to make the +6 levels irrelevant. This causes people to yell and scream about 3E magic even more.

My advice: Ignore Persistent Spell completely. Use Quicken Spell instead. It's only +4 levels, has no prerequisite (though Extend Spell can be useful in its own right), gives you almost the same effect as if it was persisted for when it counts in combat, and you can use it for any spell you care to use as opposed to Persistent Spell only affecting a finite number. You can still use Divine Metamagic for it if you want, and it would be easier.

[Dancingdeath]

I am a beast now. After I apply this combo.......well. I may have to scale back a bit to make it fair. I don't try to be the best at everything, but I do like to be the best at tearing monsters heads off.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

[Kaje]

I rather fond of Spelldancer for this. Take necropolitan or warforged with a level of binder to get around the bad parts. It can't really apply its metamagics during combat the way an incantatrix can, but take a few minutes at the beginning of the day to dance yourself buffed and you're golden.

[The Glyphstone]

Or have a legitimate and non-creepy excuse to break out your copy of the BoEF for the Metaphysical Spellshaper, after mixing in said Binder level.

[imneuromancer]

Persisted Empowered Ice Axe (Spell from Spell Compendium) with Power Attack. 2d12+(1/2CL) melee touch (very important), can be used two-handed for the 2x power attack. Damage easily outstrips all but the most optimized Fighting Men.....

[Big Fau]

If you don't want to feel like a jerk, try to persist spells that affect your entire party instead of things like Divine Power.

[Morbis Meh]

Everyone has forgotten to mention Anima Mage... it can be entered in earlier and grants you free metamagic 3/day at level 9 (level 12 total or 11the if you want extra cheese and have a very lenient DM).

[Person_Man]

I would argue that Persistent spells or any class ability actually makes you weaker from a metagame point of view. Remember, D&D is not a video game. The DM is a person, who can dynamically change encounters. For example;

Cleric A walks around with average AC, Saves, and a mace. On the first round of combat he casts an interesting/useful spell. And then if the encounter is particularly difficult he whips out his most powerful spells. Otherwise he just hits stuff with his mace, or (if he's high level) uses low level spells that scale well. The DM throws a mix of different encounters at Cleric A's party, but generally doesn't have to go out of his way to design challenging encounters. So Cleric A almost always has a trump card (ie, one of his many spells or spell trigger magic items) available, which he uses only rarely. Cleric A's player never brags about this.

Cleric B uses Persistent spells and Divine Metamagic. He has amazing AC, Saves, Miss Change, Spell Resistance, and an amazing weapon-like spell, which basically last all day. This requires that he burns through 6ish of his highest level spells at the start of the game day. In order to challenge Cleric B, the DM creates very difficult encounters. Cleric B can still deal with these with his buffed abilities and trump card spells and items. But combat is inherently more dangerous (especially to Cleric B's other party members, and especially on the first round of combat, where a stronger enemy with lucky rolls is more likely to kill a PC before they get a chance to act). And because he buffed himself prior to combat, and combat is more difficult, the Cleric has fewer trump cards/spells and Turn Undead uses to draw upon in each combat compared to Cleric A.

[FearlessGnome]

Cleric B uses Persistent spells and Divine Metamagic. He has amazing AC, Saves, Miss Change, Spell Resistance, and an amazing weapon-like spell, which basically last all day. This requires that he burns through 6ish of his highest level spells at the start of the game day. In order to challenge Cleric B, the DM creates very difficult encounters. Cleric B can still deal with these with his buffed abilities and trump card spells and items. But combat is inherently more dangerous (especially to Cleric B's other party members, and especially on the first round of combat, where a stronger enemy with lucky rolls is more likely to kill a PC before they get a chance to act). And because he buffed himself prior to combat, and combat is more difficult, the Cleric has fewer trump cards/spells and Turn Undead uses to draw upon in each combat compared to Cleric A.Not to mention, Cleric B has no right what so ever to complain if he gets hit by a Disjunction. Dispelling all active spells at once is the obvious response to going up against an enemy you know is buffed all day long and therefore stronger than you. Some enemies are going to know beforehand approximately what strategies the party fvours.

For the other party members, who were being overshadowed by the cleric in the first place? Sucks to be them. I'd advise them to stand 30 feet or so away from the Cleric at all times.

Also, Reciprical Gyre. Not so pleasant to get hit with when you are walking around persisted.

[Coidzor]

Not to mention, Cleric B has no right what so ever to complain if he gets hit by a Disjunction.

Everyone has a right to complain about Disjunction and the headaches it causes. Especially when multiple characters get caught in it.

[Jeff the Green]

Everyone has a right to complain about Disjunction and the headaches it causes. Especially when multiple characters get caught in it.

Yeah, disjoining spells is one thing, but not magic items. Especially since the classes who are more dependent on their magic items tend to have lower will saves and so are more likely to lose their items.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You want to make your next major magic item (after a Nightstick) a Ring of Counterspells, or some other method in this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851) thread of being immune to Dispel Magic. If your DM doesn't let you stack those Nightsticks (Libris Mortis, a rod that gives you +4 turning attempts per day), having your Persistent buffs dispelled is pretty horrible.

Divine Spellpower is a good way to make you effectively immune to dispelling, simply because no one can match your caster level. Assuming you've got plenty of cracksticks on hand, of course.

It's also a good way to do No Save No Sr Blasphemy/Holy Word/etc... Just Die Now kkthxbai.

[Clawhound]

What never gets posted is WHY DMM rocks. (My .02c opinion.)

In the original 3.X design, Turning was a marginally useful resource that clerics could boost cheaply because it was so marginal. It was so marginal that you couldn't break it.

THEN, someone got the idea of divine metamagic, which turned this cheap, marginal resource into a cheap, high-value resource. What a bargain! It's exactly that combination of CHEAP and HIGH VALUE that kicks DMM out of the park, even with nerfs.

[*.*.*.*]

Oh DancingDeath, prepare for several enemies to carry around the divine defiance feat if you abuse this combo.

[Venger]

assuming that nightsticks/nightstick stacking is banned, then it's normal to only be able to persist 1 spell, right?

[FearlessGnome]

One or two, yes. A Charisma of 32 is achievable at higher levels. As is a Charisma of 24 + a single Nightstick or Extra Turning feat.

You can also add DMM: Extend, to make a spell last for 48 hours for 9 turning attempts. More doable, if you can spare an extra feat more easily than getting a higher charisma.

[tyckspoon]

assuming that nightsticks/nightstick stacking is banned, then it's normal to only be able to persist 1 spell, right?

Depends on how much more you're willing to invest in getting Turn Undead uses. I believe you can buy 3 or so pretty cheaply, Rebuke Undead can be used and has its own pool (so something like Negative-channeling Neutral Cleric + a level in Sacred Exorcist, for example), raising your Charisma gets you more TU, and of course if you really want more you can just throw all your feats at Extra Turning.

[Dusk Eclipse]

It is possible to get a ridiculous amount of Turn attempts even without nightsticks, for example if you take the Destroy Undead ACF from Ravenloft (which has this lovely note saying: "If a Feat requires the expenditure of one or more uses of turn attempts it instead consume one use of this ability) and then take Sacred Exorcist levels, you get both Turn Undead and Destroy undead oh and a single instance of Extra Turning applies to both so you double dip again.

Fun huh?:smalltongue:

[Shadowleaf]

You can also add DMM: Extend, to make a spell last for 48 hours for 9 turning attempts. More doable, if you can spare an extra feat more easily than getting a higher charisma.Maybe. How Extend and Persist stacks/don't stack isn't spelled out anywhere. It's the classic "The rules don't say I can't" versus "The rules don't say I can" arguement.

[Answerer]

Everyone has forgotten to mention Anima Mage... it can be entered in earlier and grants you free metamagic 3/day at level 9 (level 12 total or 11the if you want extra cheese and have a very lenient DM).
Wizard 1/Anima Mage 9 is a theoretically possible build, for the record, at least if a few variants from Unearthed Arcana are allowed (namely Flaws and the Specialist Wizard variants; you need to be an Enchanter to get the Intimidate ranks in time) and Complete Arcane is in play. It's not even remotely worth it, however, since you need to burn 4 feats that do nothing but "let me get into Anima Mage at level 2".

You can avoid the Enchanter requirement and two of the feats by simply entering as a Wizard 3 instead. Of course, the class is actually good for a theurge and so you really should consider just doing it "properly" with a Wizard 3/Binder 1. It'll mean less headaches, more feats, and (probably) a better game.

[Venger]

Maybe. How Extend and Persist stacks/don't stack isn't spelled out anywhere. It's the classic "The rules don't say I can't" versus "The rules don't say I can" arguement.

logic dictates it's persist, then extend for 48 hours. extend then persist doesn't make any sense, why double it if it's just going to last 24 hours anyway?

you are right in that there's nothing saying a spell can't be affected by both.

I read it like how empower and maximize interact. you don't, say, with a fireball, roll 5d6, get say 16, empower to 24 and then "maximize" saying 30, the +2 from empower would simply be wasted. instead you maximize to 30, then empower to 45 so both feats function.

EDIT: wrong things struckthrough so as not to confuse casual skimmers

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I don't believe anyone has yet devised an Order of Operations for metamagic feat application. As always, consult with your GM before attempting any metamagic shenanigans. Not responsible for concussion brought about by flung books or character death due to falling rocks.

[Urpriest]

I read it like how empower and maximize interact. you don't, say, with a fireball, roll 5d6, get say 16, empower to 24 and then "maximize" saying 30, the +2 from empower would simply be wasted. instead you maximize to 30, then empower to 45 so both feats function.

Nope. Read the feats in question.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Didn't Maximize and and Empower had a special ruling that allowed you to combine them in an specific way?

[Venger]

Nope. Read the feats in question.

derp. thanks for the reminder. maximise is still mathematically a poor investment though, I dont really understand the rationale, it coming out the same time as empower and all

[nedz]

No one has mentioned Radiant Servant of Pelor
Designed as a fairly dull healbot and anti-undead cleric PrC it grants Extra (Greater) Turning as a bonus at 1st level: which is half an extra DMM persist (without Metamagic Reducers) in the hands of CoDZilla.

Be prepared to attract lots of the 3Ds though: Dispel, Greater Dispel and Disjunction. This is such an obvious counter which you will face.

Ed: sp

[tyckspoon]

No one has mentioned Radiant Servant of Pelor
Designed as a fairly dull healbot and anti-undead cleric PrC it grants Extra (Greater) Turning as a bonus at 1st level: which is half an extra DMM persist (without Metamagic Reducers) in the hands of CoDZilla.

Questionable, at best- Radiant Servant says "You can perform a Greater Turning (the granted power of the Sun Domain)".. Sun Domain says
you can perform a greater turning against undead in place of a regular turning.

You could try to convince your DM that you actually get extra turnings out of this, but don't plan on it- that reference specifically to the Sun Domain power means the narrow RAW is that you don't get any extra turnings, because the normal Sun Domain one isn't an extra turning. It's just more potent against undead, which you don't give a smeg about as a Divine Metamagic user.

[Chess435]

derp. thanks for the reminder. maximise is still mathematically a poor investment though, I dont really understand the rationale, it coming out the same time as empower and all

The designers apparently Did Not Do The Research Math. :smalltongue:

Also, if you want to get REALLY cheesy, take Vow of Poverty and then Dark Chaos Shuffle all those extra feats into Extra Turning, making you completely gear-independent due to all of your persisted buffs. Note that I am not liable for flying objects harming either you or your characters. :smalltongue:

[Dancingdeath]

Oh DancingDeath, prepare for several enemies to carry around the divine defiance feat if you abuse this combo.

You don't scare me mister man! (My current DM IRL^):smallsmile:

[Dancingdeath]

I was already looking at Radiant Servant of Pelor, but not for the turning attempts. It fit my character concept. I could JUST focus on min/max play, but where's the fun in that. I enjoy, and play toward the role play aspect of D&D as well. Makes it more funn and well rounded play.

I have gotten tons of good tips and suggestions on here though. Thank you very much to all who have contributed.

[Greyfeld85]

What never gets posted is WHY DMM rocks. (My .02c opinion.)

In the original 3.X design, Turning was a marginally useful resource that clerics could boost cheaply because it was so marginal. It was so marginal that you couldn't break it.

THEN, someone got the idea of divine metamagic, which turned this cheap, marginal resource into a cheap, high-value resource. What a bargain! It's exactly that combination of CHEAP and HIGH VALUE that kicks DMM out of the park, even with nerfs.

lol because Clerics needed another way to break the game?

[Heliomance]

DMM Persist is very worth it. And if you try, you can persist a ludicrous number of spells even without nightstick stacking. I built this (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=98333) monstrosity a while back, it was ridiculously powerful.

Just make sure you have enough protections against getting dispelled. I had a spellblade set to absorb Greater Dispel Magic, a ring of Greater Counterspelling attuned to GDM, a ring of Spellbattle, and a Contingency set to Dimension Door me away if someone cast Disjunction and I didn't manage to somehow counter it.

[Acanous]

Persist and Extend work together like Maximize and Empower.
You get 24 hours of buff, then double the spell's normal duration on top.
So if a spell lasted for 1 minute per caster level, and you're a lv 10 cleric, you get it for 24 hours and 20 minutes.
Metamagic in particular is additave.
The PHB states that any time a PC needs to determine an order of operations for his character, he applies it in the most beneficial way to him. Enemies apply them in the way most beneficial to the enemy.

This also works for levelling up, with the exception that your class is always the first thing you pick.
(Which is why you can't qualify for a prestige class until the level AFTER you get that feat, but if a feat requires skill points or skill points require a feat, you get them both at that level)

[FearlessGnome]

Also works for levelling up, with the exception that your class is always the first thing you pick.
(Which is why you can't qualify for a prestige class until the level AFTER you get that feat, but if a feat requires skill points or skill points require a feat, you get them both at that level)

This is incorrect. Leveling up happens in a particular order. It shouldn't, and and many people just pick whatever order they want, but by the books, the order is:
1. Pick a class.
2. BAB.
3. Saves.
4. Ability score increase.
5. Hit points.
6. Skill points.
7. Feats.
8. Spells.
9. Class Features.

There was a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236068) about this recently.


Persist and Extend work together like Maximize and Empower.
You get 24 hours of buff, then double the spell's normal duration on top.
So if a spell lasted for 1 minute per caster level, and you're a lv 10 cleric, you get it for 24 hours and 20 minutes.
Metamagic in particular is additave.
The PHB states that any time a PC needs to determine an order of operations for his character, he applies it in the most beneficial way to him. Enemies apply them in the way most beneficial to the enemy.There is no rule saying you cannot extend a Persisted spell for a 48 hour duration. It is a perfectly reasonable house rule, but do not mistake an attempt at balance for RAW.
When you Persist a spell, its duration changes to 24 hours. So if you DMM: Persist a spell that was prepared with Extend, Persist overwrites Extend. If you Prepare it with both, though, or you DMM both, the order is up to you, and so can be applied in the most beneficial order.

The 'normal' duration of the spell does not exist. It is overwritten by Persist. There is no case to be made for the Extend to be applied only to this. It is all or nothing.

[Clawhound]

And because he buffed himself prior to combat, and combat is more difficult, the Cleric has fewer trump cards/spells and Turn Undead uses to draw upon in each combat compared to Cleric A.

This is a paradox that needs a name.

Should we call it the Paradox of Optimization?

[Dancingdeath]

How about you just call it a difficult encounter. It's not like the fully optimized cleric is completely out of spells or turn attempts. And his combat stats should be at peak. Yeah, poor unfortunate cleric B. I'd rather be cleric B opposed to cleric A 10 times out of 10.:wink:

[tuesdayscoming]

Yeah, poor unfortunate cleric B. I'd rather be cleric B opposed to cleric A 10 times out of 10.:wink:

More like poor unfortunate Cleric B's party. I'd rather play with Cleric A any day of the week.

The temptation to optimize every aspect of your character is a powerful thing. More than that, it just feels good to turn your character into a monstrous, magic-infused juggernaut. And sometimes there's nothing wrong at all with doing so.

The most important thing, though, is to think hard about the relative power-level of your party. If a DMM Clericzilla is in a party with the Batman and a Planar Shepherd, then things should be hunky-dory. But where that same cleric is playing with a sword-and-board paladin, a jack-of-all-trades bard, and a dual-wielding rogue, you're gonna have issues.

tl;dr Building more powerful characters will often be great fun for you; but where doing so will take the spotlight off of other characters in your group, it's just not worth it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

More like poor unfortunate Cleric B's party. I'd rather play with Cleric A any day of the week.

The temptation to optimize every aspect of your character is a powerful thing. More than that, it just feels good to turn your character into a monstrous, magic-infused juggernaut. And sometimes there's nothing wrong at all with doing so.

The most important thing, though, is to think hard about the relative power-level of your party. If a DMM Clericzilla is in a party with the Batman and a Planar Shepherd, then things should be hunky-dory. But where that same cleric is playing with a sword-and-board paladin, a jack-of-all-trades bard, and a dual-wielding rogue, you're gonna have issues.

tl;dr Building more powerful characters will often be great fun for you; but where doing so will take the spotlight off of other characters in your group, it's just not worth it.

DMM Chain to pair with DMM Persist and share the wealth buffs?

[Dancingdeath]

It's a gestalt campaign. Anyone who is not tier 1 in a gestalt campaign has no one but themselves to blame. I look at it as a learning experience in character building for those in our party that are not skilled in it. Like the dude that brought a monk/soulknife. There was NO synergy between his class choices. As a result his character went into negative hit points TWICE in the first combat of the campaign. I did not save him the second time. That's a good learning curve. He has since rerolled a new character. I don't know what he made yet, as it took him the entire frikkin session to do so but it can't be worse than what he had.

Trust me, it's not what I play all the time anyway. My last character was a monk.

[tuesdayscoming]

Fair enough, fair enough.

Sorry if I came off as a bit preachy. Certainly wasn't my intention. Just wanted to make sure you understood what you were in for. I've had a number of great games ruined by power imbalance - sometimes my fault, sometimes someone else's.

Optimization is a double-edged sword. For reasons that Person_Man put quite eloquently above, DMM: Persistent moreso than most methods.

[Coidzor]

Understanding is a three-edged sword, after all, and that applies to games as much as life.