Throwing Weapons and the Sizing property

[Linic]

Hello, I'm a little new to all this so please forgive me if this is a stupid question but

It say in the MIC that you can apply the sizing property to ranged weapons, and activating it is a swift command, so does that mean you could throw said weapon then command it into a larger size mid flight? Cause I could only imagine the look on a enemies face when the shuriken our whisper gnome ninja threw goes from tiny to say......large or even COLOSSAL!

[dextercorvia]

Hello, I'm a little new to all this so please forgive me if this is a stupid question but

It say in the MIC that you can apply the sizing property to ranged weapons, and activating it is a swift command, so does that mean you could throw said weapon then command it into a larger size mid flight? Cause I could only imagine the look on a enemies face when the shuriken our whisper gnome ninja threw goes from tiny to say......large or even COLOSSAL!

Since you haven't rolled your attack yet, you get to apply size penalties. If it is too large, you can't even attack with it.

[hydraa]

Could I add sizing to a rock (or sling bullet) that I can drop on the head of someone while it is resizing for 100 GP (ammo)

Size medium at .5 lb 4 steps to size colossal at 8x weight.

turns this into a 2048 lb hunk of lead becoming 10D6 (max 20d6) for each 10 ft it falls

[Linic]

Really? That sucks, he was going to have a set of shuriken made that had a variety of properties (all with returning of course) for various situations. Guess that ones out though

[That_guy_there]

Could I add sizing to a rock (or sling bullet) that I can drop on the head of someone while it is resizing for 100 GP (ammo)

Size medium at .5 lb 4 steps to size colossal at 8x weight.

turns this into a 2048 lb hunk of lead becoming 10D6 (max 20d6) for each 10 ft it falls

A fun thing you might want to look into is a half-giant with levels in hulking hurler. The Dm (and he house-ruled this so results might vary) let me have a mason craft me a gargantuan rock that weighed 2700lbs and get it enchanted with sizing. Hulking hurler has a trick that allows you to thorw your medium load as full round action. Mine was 2700lbs. Which IIRC was 14d6 damage to a 20ft area (reflex save for 1/2) and a range increment of 20ft after i added distance to it.

Sizing (As mentioned before) applies before you make the attack....

[Marnath]

Really? That sucks, he was going to have a set of shuriken made that had a variety of properties (all with returning of course) for various situations. Guess that ones out though

It would be funny if it had returning because you only get one swift action a round so you watch helplessly as a colossal shuriken comes hurtling back at you. Try catching that!

[Linic]

Actually he already thought of that, what he described to me was he'd get within range of said enemy/enimes and throw it and use his Ki ninja power to turn ethereal thus allowing it to pass through him harmlessly on return. He wanted to make a returning exit wound sizing shuriken. I think he basicly wants to repilcate the scene from ninja scroll were the giant shuriken mows a bunch of guys down. I just wanted to know if it was possible by the book but since it isn't Ill probably setup something like a building is going collapse and the only way out is packed full of baddies and itd take too long to fight they're way through and let him "channel his ninjaness" into a one time super shuriken attack of epicness sorta thing. I mean its only a game after all why not let everyone have they're "shining moment" ya know, anyway Thanks for the feedback

[dextercorvia]

Actually he already thought of that, what he described to me was he'd get within range of said enemy/enimes and throw it and use his Ki ninja power to turn ethereal thus allowing it to pass through him harmlessly on return. He wanted to make a returning exit wound sizing shuriken. I think he basicly wants to repilcate the scene from ninja scroll were the giant shuriken mows a bunch of guys down. I just wanted to know if it was possible by the book but since it isn't Ill probably setup something like a building is going collapse and the only way out is packed full of baddies and itd take too long to fight they're way through and let him "channel his ninjaness" into a one time super shuriken attack of epicness sorta thing. I mean its only a game after all why not let everyone have they're "shining moment" ya know, anyway Thanks for the feedback

Doesn't the etherealness also take a swift action?

[Linic]

Players handbook 2 page 105, Celerity or Greater Celerity

if you search hard enough, WOTC put out enough books and rule changes in 3.5 to cover almost anything you want and if you do happen across the few things you can't that's what house rules are for. At the end of the day the books are just there to give us a foundation for our imaginations right? The books word isn't law after all the DM's is lol

[Jeraa]

Really? That sucks, he was going to have a set of shuriken made that had a variety of properties (all with returning of course) for various situations. Guess that ones out though

That won't work. Shuriken are treated as ammunition - they are destroyed when they hit their target. There won't be anything left to return to you. (Only 50% are destroyed when they miss, so retuning could possibly return half of the shuriken you throw that miss.)

[Suteinu]

Even adamantine shuriken?

I mean, sure the idea obviously flies in the face of the rules, but it is an interesting idea.

And, of course, rules are made to be broken ...

[Jeraa]

Yes, even adamantine shuriken.

[dextercorvia]

Players handbook 2 page 105, Celerity or Greater Celerity

if you search hard enough, WOTC put out enough books and rule changes in 3.5 to cover almost anything you want and if you do happen across the few things you can't that's what house rules are for. At the end of the day the books are just there to give us a foundation for our imaginations right? The books word isn't law after all the DM's is lol

Neither grant you extra swift actions, and they require an immediate (or swift if it is still your turn -- which in this example it would be) action to cast.

[hydraa]

Yes, even adamantine shuriken.

How about Aurorum shuriken.

[Jeraa]

How about Aurorum shuriken.

By RAW, yes aurorum shuriken are still destroyed. Aurorum specifically says you can put it back together when sundered, not whenever it is destroyed. Sundering is a specific, in-game mechanic. Ammunition that hits isn't sundered, it isn't dealt damage. Its automatically destroyed.

RAI, however, should allow aurorum shuriken to be reassembled.

[Linic]

Well I'm the DM and I say he can have a special set of windmill style shuriken that are not destroyed after use, end of that

[Linic]

:smallcool:

[dextercorvia]

Well I'm the DM and I say he can have a special set of windmill style shuriken that are not destroyed after use, end of that

It's a little silly to come here and ask if XYZ is rules legal, and then respond to our answers that it isn't with, "Well I'm the DM, and I can do whatever I want."

You could do that anyway.

[Slipperychicken]

By RAW, yes aurorum shuriken are still destroyed. Aurorum specifically says you can put it back together when sundered, not whenever it is destroyed. Sundering is a specific, in-game mechanic. Ammunition that hits isn't sundered, it isn't dealt damage. Its automatically destroyed.

RAI, however, should allow aurorum shuriken to be reassembled.

What about a Riverine shuriken? :smallbiggrin:

[That_guy_there]

It's a little silly to come here and ask if XYZ is rules legal, and then respond to our answers that it isn't with, "Well I'm the DM, and I can do whatever I want."

You could do that anyway.

+1.

Also I was in a group with a guy who convinced the DM to let his adamantine shurikens survive as thrown weapons not ammunition. He then proceeded to take master thrower and slap distance, returning and collision on them. So they enchant like ammo and get thrown like weapons.
With palm throw and a rediculous build he manages to dominate combat. It sucks for the melee guys. it wouldn't be so bad if he was tossing ammo and had a finite supply of shuriken... but he has basically infinite exploding stars of death at decent range...

So... just beware....

[Jeraa]

What about a Riverine shuriken? :smallbiggrin:

Riverine is immune to all damage. However, ammunition that is thrown does not take damage. It is just destroyed. So again, by RAW, riverine ammunition would be destroyed if it hits.

But this is another case where RAI, riveine ammo shouldn't be destroyed.

Simple solution to shuriken - just treat them as thrown weapons in all ways. Then they don't break when thrown. However, you would have to enchant each one individually, instead of enchanting 50 at a time. Thats how they worked in 3.0. (They also only did 1 damage, you could throw up to 3 in a single attack, and you couldn't apply your strength modifier to the damage.)

[That_guy_there]

Simple solution to shuriken - just treat them as thrown weapons in all ways. Then they don't break when thrown. However, you would have to enchant each one individually, instead of enchanting 50 at a time. Thats how they worked in 3.0.

Interestingly this is more or less how they work in Pathfinder too

[Jeraa]

Interestingly this is more or less how they work in Pathfinder too

Pathfinder shuriken work just the same as 3.5 shuriken do.

From the PRD:

Shuriken: A shuriken is a small piece of metal with sharpened edges, designed for throwing. A shuriken can't be used as a melee weapon. Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them, and what happens to them after they are thrown.

From the 3.5 SRD:

Shuriken

A shuriken is a special monk weapon. This designation gives a monk wielding shuriken special options. A shuriken can’t be used as a melee weapon.
Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them and what happens to them after they are thrown.

[That_guy_there]

Pathfinder shuriken work just the same as 3.5 shuriken do.

From the PRD:


From the 3.5 SRD:

.....

You are indeed right. I didn't think that all the way through....
the developers in a Paizo forum clarified that they get enchanted like thrown weapon and ruined like ammunition.

... I don't know what i was intending with that previous post...

:smallfrown: