What if there were no UMD/UPD skill?

[Particle_Man]

I imagine the Tier 1 classes would do fine, mostly. But I am curious as to how the loss of this skill would change the game, particularly since so many of the lower tier classes are given advice to pump up UMD or UPD and then use magic/psionic items (like a rogue with a wand, for example).

I know the warlock would take a hit. Would other classes? Would the rogue slip down half a tier or something?

[Kuulvheysoon]

DFA would probably take a hit.

Now that I think of it how uch would this impact an Artificer (having never gotten the chance to play one)?

[Ernir]

The Artificer would need to be rewritten. As-is, he depends on the UMD skill to do pretty much all of his tricks.

The classes that suffer are all classes that have UMD on their list, obviously. Aside from the Artificer, I think those are universally Tier 3-4 classes that don't really need the nerf (with the pooooossible exception of the Beguiler?).

I also don't see what this is supposed to accomplish.

[ericgrau]

You can only afford level 1 or 2 scrolls/wands anyway, so I don't see what the big deal is over UMD. Outside of core there are a couple gish friendly spells I suppose. You can't even use it reliably during combat until about level 14 unless you pump it with magic items or feats. Practically speaking without cheese that's maybe level 10. So you can use scrolls of invisibility instead of potions. And it's about 50 level 2 scrolls just to get your money back on those UMD magic items vs. potions. The only real advantage is with all the swift spells that spell compendium added, and you still have to wait until level 10+ barring getting a custom UMD item approved. Even then it might be 8+.

Worst case scenario you dip 1 level of a caster instead and get wand and scroll use anyway, and it's reliable right away.

So basically you gotta address dipping and swift spells that actually benefit from UMD and you're good to go. Perhaps allow swift potions or tokens or custom use/day or unlimited use items for the popular spells, or encourage dipping by removing or reducing multiclass restrictions. Or if you hate all that then you need a way to prevent dips and so on.

[Curmudgeon]

This would encourage spellcaster class dips, and thus increase the value of multiclassing feats which includes spellcasting. A Rogue could dip 1 level into Cloistered Cleric with the Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#magicDomain) domain and take Sacred Outlaw to stack Cleric and Rogue levels for sneak attack (and undead turning). With Magic's granted power the character could use wands and staves of all Cleric and Wizard spells without a check, and scrolls with the usual caster level check. This is actually superior to Use Magic Device at low levels, but it lacks the versatility that lots of ranks in UMD can provide to activating magic items generally.

So you'd be screwing over the skillful classes, but there are some workarounds so the effect wouldn't be major. If you wanted to make a change that would actually work better in the game, you might instead consider reverting to the rule making these skills only available to certain classes (the system used in D&D 3.0).

[Particle_Man]

I was just curious. I notice that when classes get compared someone says something like "Well don't forget the max out UMD because that is the only thing your character can do" often enough to stick in my mind, so I wanted to see how important UMD actually is to a low to middle tier build, and one way to determine that is to imagine a game world without UMD.

[Golden Ladybug]

Actually, the Tier System doesn't take into account the use of UMD (except for the Artificer, who runs its class features on it), as it can be used and abused by anyone to gain unlimited power, so there wouldn't be a dramatic shift. Everyone bar the Artificer would stay relatively the same.

Of course, it limits the options available, but if you can break into Tier 3 by the merits of your other class features, then you should be fine.

[Particle_Man]

Actually, the Tier System doesn't take into account the use of UMD (except for the Artificer, who runs its class features on it), as it can be used and abused by anyone to gain unlimited power, so there wouldn't be a dramatic shift. Everyone bar the Artificer would stay relatively the same.

Ah in that case I need some way to respond to people when I ask "how can I play a level 20 NG incarnate well?" (for example) and then they reply "Use UMD!" because I would like to see what else I can do with the NG incarnate, frankly. Perhaps the "tier" talk is a distraction then, but the issue I have remains.

[Socratov]

The artificer would be gimped, the rogue would suffer a huge hit to his options (especially with his options for satisfying the conditions for his Sneak attack), or make that any SA user, and of course aristocrats and commoners :smallamused:

[Flickerdart]

This would encourage spellcaster class dips, and thus increase the value of multiclassing feats which includes spellcasting. A Rogue could dip 1 level into Cloistered Cleric with the Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#magicDomain) domain and take Sacred Outlaw to stack Cleric and Rogue levels for sneak attack (and undead turning). With Magic's granted power the character could use wands and staves of all Cleric and Wizard spells without a check, and scrolls with the usual caster level check. This is actually superior to Use Magic Device at low levels, but it lacks the versatility that lots of ranks in UMD can provide to activating magic items generally.

So you'd be screwing over the skillful classes, but there are some workarounds so the effect wouldn't be major. If you wanted to make a change that would actually work better in the game, you might instead consider reverting to the rule making these skills only available to certain classes (the system used in D&D 3.0).
Eh, why bother with Sacred Outlaw? It's not like the 20th level of Rogue is a real level anyway.

[Curmudgeon]

Eh, why bother with Sacred Outlaw? It's not like the 20th level of Rogue is a real level anyway.
You might want more than 1 level of Cloistered Cleric. Specifically 2 Cleric levels will go a long way (+3 each) to shore up the Rogue's weak Fortitude and Will saves. (That level will also give +1 BAB and a couple more low-level spells to help compensate for there no longer being a way to get magical effects from some items.) Add Sacred Outlaw and the Rogue/Cleric is back to full sneak attack. Plus, when you throw in a Phylactery of Undead Turning with this feat, the character turns undead at (Rogue + Cleric + 4) levels.