How does the mailman work?

[MukkTB]

I've read the handbook but I need more help. My understanding is the mailman uses celerity to cast direct damage spells that are difficult or impossible to avoid. But I feel like I'm missing out on some things. Could somebody explain the details and how they interact? Maybe by describing an 'average turn' you might take as a mailman? Also at what level does the build come online?

[Snowbluff]

Metamagic Reduction.

Incantatrix, Metaphysical Spell Shaper, etc. Arcane Thesis and Practical Metamagic. Maximize, Quicken, Twin your fave spell to your heart's content.

[candycorn]

At low levels, the Mailman is simply a batman wizard.

At mid levels, metamagic reducers begin coming online (Arcane Thesis, Easy Metamagic, Practical Metamagic, Incantatrix), and mailman starts getting nasty.

Basically, Celerity isn't the combo at all. Mailman works by using highly metamagic'd spells, with metamagic reducers to keep the spell levels manageable.

For example: Split Ray Energy Admixture Twinned Maximized Empowered Invisible Spell Sanctum Spell Ocular Spell Orb of Acid. Deals 156 + 13d6 damage per shot, and 4 shots. Total Damage: 624 + 52d6, average 201.5 per ray, total 806 damage, on average.

That spell is assuming Caster level 13, out of a level 6 slot. Chances are, Sanctum, Ocular, and Invisible spell will lower the spell slot adjustment by 3. Maximize, empower, admixture, twin, and split ray will each add 1. Net modification is +2, for a level 6 slot. Remove Sanctum, and it'd be a level 7 slot, but would still be about as powerful otherwise.

And that's the concept of Mailman. Shooting massively powerful ranged spells to disintigrate anything that gets in the way.

[SirFredgar]

At low levels, the Mailman is simply a batman wizard.



Aren't most Mailmen and women Sorcerers, so they can change up their weapon of choice at a moments notice in case something happens to be immune to acid, for example?

[Snowbluff]

Energy Admixture is particularly scary, effectively doubling the effectiveness of the spell, and it gets doubled by Twin Spell. :smalleek:

[candycorn]

Aren't most Mailmen and women Sorcerers, so they can change up their weapon of choice at a moments notice in case something happens to be immune to acid, for example?

Energy Substitution and Energy Admixture generally handle that. You generally specialize in 1-2 spells, with Arcane Thesis. For that, focused specialist is better, with incantatrix. Force is a good orb to throw (albeit lower damage) to bypass immunity, and there are Feats to allow wizards to spontaneously cast some spells each day.

[Andion Isurand]

Nesting Arcane Fusion into Greater Arcane Fusion can net you tons of orbs and such with the proper use of metamagic and metamagic reducing feats.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5242.0

[Snowbluff]

Energy Substitution and Energy Admixture generally handle that. You generally specialize in 1-2 spells, with Arcane Thesis. For that, focused specialist is better, with incantatrix. Force is a good orb to throw (albeit lower damage) to bypass immunity, and there are Feats to allow wizards to spontaneously cast some spells each day.

Not only that, but Direct Damage is the hardest thing for a creature to completely immune to. What happens if you cast a Save-or-Die and it fails or the creature happens to be immune? Jack squat. You just wasted your turn. What happened if someone makes the save on your pimped out Orb of Acid? They still burn! :smallbiggrin:

[candycorn]

Nesting Arcane Fusion into Greater Arcane Fusion can net you tons of orbs and such with the proper use of metamagic and metamagic reducing feats.

At the cost of blowing through your entire spell load in 2 rounds. I generally prefer running with 50% of the loadout reserved for buffs, 25% for debuffs, and the rest reserved for damage spells, 1-2 of which should end almost any fight.

[Yuukale]

just for completeness sake, there's this most-referenced mailman build nicknamed "Cindy" (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=5890).

[tyckspoon]

At the cost of blowing through your entire spell load in 2 rounds.

Only the slots for the Greater Arcane Fusion, actually. The subspells loaded into it don't use slots.

[SirFredgar]

Energy Substitution and Energy Admixture generally handle that. You generally specialize in 1-2 spells, with Arcane Thesis. For that, focused specialist is better, with incantatrix. Force is a good orb to throw (albeit lower damage) to bypass immunity, and there are Feats to allow wizards to spontaneously cast some spells each day.

I would think that playing a Wizard would be too much of a straight jacket. Even with admixture it seems like it would be easy for a creature to be immune to one of the types of damamge you focus on (after all, you always admix with the same type of energy). Arcane thesis further pigeon holes you into only one spell to do your heavy lifting.

The reason I see the sorcerer as a better option, is simply the fact that you can tailor each casting to the enemy at hand. With knowstones, you should have the appropriate energy type at your finger tips no matter what you face. Fighting hellhounds? Ice orb for 1.5x damage. Oh noes, the very next thing I fight is a Cryohydra (what kinda wacky dungeon is this?) blast him with a fire orb instead.

It's also much easier to have the spells you need on hand. If you need to pack a true strike into an Arcane fusion.... you can. If you don't need to true strike... well, don't, and you wont feel like you wasted a prepped slot. Or worse... maybe you need more then just that 1 you prepared. These are problems the sorcerer doesn't have to worry about, giving them the freedom to have the right (at least direct damage) tool needed for any monster. It also makes it much easier to throw in supporting combos, like the Surge of Fortune trick, or celerity for an extra turn that you didn't know you would need untill right then, or even just having access to Alter Fortune on demand without having to fill one of your precious non-specialist school slots with.

While I don't discount a wizard could do it, I just seem to think it's a niche best filled by a Sorcerer.

[tyckspoon]

I would think that playing a Wizard would be too much of a straight jacket. Even with admixture it seems like it would be easy for a creature to be immune to one of the types of damamge you focus on (after all, you always admix with the same type of energy). Arcane thesis further pigeon holes you into only one spell to do your heavy lifting.


Energy Sub/Admix Fire, Searing Spell. Ignore resistances and immunes still take half damage. Which is kind of annoying, but a full-fledged Mailman does enough overkill that it kills anything in a reasonable CR range of you anyway.

[Aegis013]

I made a mailman sorcerer for a solo gestalt game I was running for a friend as a kind of optional boss encounter. Never got to use him.

He was level 16, and if I recall correctly, his typical opening went like this:

1. Win initiative or cast Celerity
2. Activate Belt of Battle for an additional full action
3. Cast Arcane Spellsurge with the standard action granted from Celerity
4. Cast Greater Arcane Fusion and Arcane Fusion, all with Vortex of Teeth metamagic'd up to the appropriate levels, plus whatever other metamagics he could tag on with Incantatrix's spellcraft checks. Since, I ruled out negative spell adjustments, the lowest slot in the Arcane Fusion was True Casting.

It was just crazy.

[candycorn]

I would think that playing a Wizard would be too much of a straight jacket. Even with admixture it seems like it would be easy for a creature to be immune to one of the types of damamge you focus on (after all, you always admix with the same type of energy). Arcane thesis further pigeon holes you into only one spell to do your heavy lifting.

The reason I see the sorcerer as a better option, is simply the fact that you can tailor each casting to the enemy at hand. With knowstones, you should have the appropriate energy type at your finger tips no matter what you face. Fighting hellhounds? Ice orb for 1.5x damage. Oh noes, the very next thing I fight is a Cryohydra (what kinda wacky dungeon is this?) blast him with a fire orb instead.

It's also much easier to have the spells you need on hand. If you need to pack a true strike into an Arcane fusion.... you can. If you don't need to true strike... well, don't, and you wont feel like you wasted a prepped slot. Or worse... maybe you need more then just that 1 you prepared. These are problems the sorcerer doesn't have to worry about, giving them the freedom to have the right (at least direct damage) tool needed for any monster. It also makes it much easier to throw in supporting combos, like the Surge of Fortune trick, or celerity for an extra turn that you didn't know you would need untill right then, or even just having access to Alter Fortune on demand without having to fill one of your precious non-specialist school slots with.

While I don't discount a wizard could do it, I just seem to think it's a niche best filled by a Sorcerer.

At the cost of losing out on Metamagic Reducers. There's a reason that the first Mailman was a wizard. They're more powerful, more versatile, and there's Searing Spell for immunity, if you need to. With 800 damage, at level 13? You can kill a CR 20 Red dragon with a searing spell orb of fire, admixtured acid. In one shot.

So, about immunities?

[SirFredgar]

At the cost of losing out on Metamagic Reducers. There's a reason that the first Mailman was a wizard. They're more powerful, more versatile, and there's Searing Spell for immunity, if you need to. With 800 damage, at level 13? You can kill a CR 20 Red dragon with a searing spell orb of fire, admixtured acid. In one shot.

So, about immunities?

I've never done the hard math myself, and haven't been around the forums long (as you can see by my post count ^_^ ) so the only mailman build I was familiar with untill this point was This guy (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer). While I know the wizard's strong points, I always figured the lack of preparation is what made that build such a powerhouse.

The concept that "wizards can do anything better than you" is is not foreign to me... I guess I just thought this role was the exception. Especially since I haven't stumbled on any mailman wizard builds untill tonight (thanks for the link to Cindy, Yuukale)

[candycorn]

I've never done the hard math myself, and haven't been around the forums long (as you can see by my post count ^_^ ) so the only mailman build I was familiar with untill this point was This guy (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer). While I know the wizard's strong points, I always figured the lack of preparation is what made that build such a powerhouse.

The concept that "wizards can do anything better than you" is is not foreign to me... I guess I just thought this role was the exception. Especially since I haven't stumbled on any mailman wizard builds untill tonight (thanks for the link to Cindy, Yuukale)
The idea of "wizards can do anything better than you" has no exceptions, with the possible honorable mention of Planar Shepherd... Then again, wizards can counter with Beholder Mage, so it's kinda a wash there.

For just about everything else? Wizard wins, either from its own abilities, or from using its own abilities to steal someone else's.

[Eisenfavl]

The idea of "wizards can do anything better than you" has no exceptions, with the possible honorable mention of Planar Shepherd... Then again, wizards can counter with Beholder Mage, so it's kinda a wash there.

For just about everything else? Wizard wins, either from its own abilities, or from using its own abilities to steal someone else's.
I'd almost say that Archivist is better, but pun-puns ladder is undeniably awesome, and you can't kobold it either.

Also Arcane Fusion is incorrectly used in the mailman. The correct usage is to have a sanctum spell arcane fusion inside your SSAF inside your SSAF, etc etc.
One level 8 slot, infinite spells. Oh, and you also get to apply any metamagics to any of these arcane fusions applies to anything down the line. That's a lot of spells.

[DeAnno]

Sorcerers simply have a better action economy than Wizards, which is why they are better suited to direct damage. Arcane Spellsurge is awkward for Wizards to use and both Arcane Fusion spells are impossible for them to use.

A Sorcerer can use a swift action to cast Greater Arcane Fusion (through spellsurge) as well as a standard action to cast Invisible Greater Arcane Fusion in the same turn. This sustainable output of two 4ths and two 7ths a round for the cost of two 8th level slots is extremely powerful: in the same round you can cast two 7th level metamagicked Orb spells both with True Strikes attached to them, or even use some of the spells to do things like strip buffs with Greater Dispel or move yourself around with teleportation spells. You can do even more if you cast Celerity after your turn ends when you get your immediate action back!

One turn playing a high level Mailman I cast Greater Fusion as a Swift for Disintegrate to free the party beatstick from a Forcecage and True Strike myself. Then, I used a 9th to launch a big Fire Orb killing some horrible monster, and then after my turn I cast Celerity and used GAF to True Strike again and launch a 7th level Orb at some other horrible monster.

If you're playing Direct Damage, it's likely that all the versatility of the Wizard is going to be wasted on you. From 10th level onwards Sorcs just get more spells off per turn, and that's what you want.

[candycorn]

Sorcerers simply have a better action economy than Wizards, which is why they are better suited to direct damage. Arcane Spellsurge is awkward for Wizards to use and both Arcane Fusion spells are impossible for them to use.

A Sorcerer can use a swift action to cast Greater Arcane Fusion (through spellsurge) as well as a standard action to cast Invisible Greater Arcane Fusion in the same turn. This sustainable output of two 4ths and two 7ths a round for the cost of two 8th level slots is extremely powerful: in the same round you can cast two 7th level metamagicked Orb spells both with True Strikes attached to them, or even use some of the spells to do things like strip buffs with Greater Dispel or move yourself around with teleportation spells. You can do even more if you cast Celerity after your turn ends when you get your immediate action back!

One turn playing a high level Mailman I cast Greater Fusion as a Swift for Disintegrate to free the party beatstick from a Forcecage and True Strike myself. Then, I used a 9th to launch a big Fire Orb killing some horrible monster, and then after my turn I cast Celerity and used GAF to True Strike again and launch a 7th level Orb at some other horrible monster.

If you're playing Direct Damage, it's likely that all the versatility of the Wizard is going to be wasted on you. From 10th level onwards Sorcs just get more spells off per turn, and that's what you want.
No. What you want is to be able to grab your enemies by their dirty bits, and make them cry.

You are envisioning a machine gun, killing a dozen guys.
I envision a howitzer, doing the same thing with 1 shot.

It's true, sorcerors can generally get off action economy a bit easier than wizards (and a bit harder than psions).

But you don't need to shoot 5 spells off. When one spell can kill something 8 CR higher, even when it is immune to the energy type you're tossing... You've got it. Add on Chain spell for mooks. Otherwise, you've got what you need to kill whatever you want.

[Acanous]

Frankly, Mailman comes off, to me, as one of two viable builds for a sorceror. A Wizard CAN do Mailman, and anything else he wants, really, but a Sorceror can focus completely on it. If it's what you do every day, there's no reason not to go Sorc for it.
If you want to Wizard a mailman, sure, but why not just go Wiz/M.Spec/Incantatrix/Dweomerkeeper or Geomater or Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil?

Basically, when the build only requires a few spells spammed endlessly, you should go sorceror. If it benefits from having all the spells you ever want, go wizard.

Most of the time, go Wizard.

[candycorn]

Frankly, Mailman comes off, to me, as one of two viable builds for a sorceror. A Wizard CAN do Mailman, and anything else he wants, really, but a Sorceror can focus completely on it. If it's what you do every day, there's no reason not to go Sorc for it.
If you want to Wizard a mailman, sure, but why not just go Wiz/M.Spec/Incantatrix/Dweomerkeeper or Geomater or Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil?

Basically, when the build only requires a few spells spammed endlessly, you should go sorceror. If it benefits from having all the spells you ever want, go wizard.

Most of the time, go Wizard.

The problem is, a Focused Specialist Wizard gets more spells per day at each level than a sorceror.

[Darth_Versity]

The problem is, a Focused Specialist Wizard gets more spells per day at each level than a sorceror.

No it doesn't. They get the same, 6 spells of each lvl.

[nedz]

No it doesn't. They get the same, 6 spells of each lvl.

But a level earlier - so not at most levels

[candycorn]

No it doesn't. They get the same, 6 spells of each lvl.

At level 20, perhaps. Not much of a campaign gets played there.

Level 5:{table]Class | Lv 1 | Lv 2 | Lv 3
Wiz | 5 | 4 | 3
Sorc| 6 | 4 | -[/table]

Level 10:{table]Class | Lv 1 | Lv 2 | Lv 3 | Lv4 | Lv5
Wiz|6|6|5|5|4
Sorc|6|6|6|5|3[/table]

Level 15:{table]Class | Lv 1 | Lv 2 | Lv 3 | Lv4 | Lv5 |Lv 6|Lv7|Lv8
Wiz|6|6|6|6|6|5|4|3
Sorc|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|-[/table]

This pattern holds true for most every level after 4. Odd levels, the wizard will have 3 extra spells at the highest level, and 1 less spell at the level 2 below that. Even levels, the wizard will have 1 extra spell at the highest level, and 1 less spell 2 levels below that.

So, from Level 5-19, my statement holds true.

[gkathellar]

Aren't most Mailmen and women Sorcerers, so they can change up their weapon of choice at a moments notice in case something happens to be immune to acid, for example?

That's not why. There are two reasons:

Spontaneous casters are better at using Arcane Spellsurge + Metamagic.
Greater Arcane Fusion.


Candycorn, no one's arguing that wizards are better than sorcerers. But the standard mailman build is a sorcerer, for the simple reason that a sorcerer can be a machine gun and a howitzer.

(Also, an optimized mailman is a kobold.)

[Darth_Versity]

So, from Level 5-19, my statement holds true.

While it does hold true at those levels your original statement was "The problem is, a Focused Specialist Wizard gets more spells per day at each level than a sorceror", which is wrong, as you have just proven.

Not that it really matters. The wizard only gets the extra (and sooner) because the designers didn't have any idea how their own game worked. If they did, they would have stopped offering wizards all these ridiculously powerful ACF's and extra spells. If they had the sense to actually spend time among their player base and check the Char Op forum on there own website back when they were still designing all this they may have actually learned a thing or two.

I guess im just pissed that the one thing that a Sorcerer is really really good at, the wizard is still just that little bit better. It makes me sad :smallfrown:

[Tvtyrant]

While it does hold true at those levels your original statement was "The problem is, a Focused Specialist Wizard gets more spells per day at each level than a sorceror", which is wrong, as you have just proven.

Not that it really matters. The wizard only gets the extra (and sooner) because the designers didn't have any idea how their own game worked. If they did, they would have stopped offering wizards all these ridiculously powerful ACF's and extra spells. If they had the sense to actually spend time among their player base and check the Char Op forum on there own website back when they were still designing all this they may have actually learned a thing or two.

I guess im just pissed that the one thing that a Sorcerer is really really good at, the wizard is still just that little bit better. It makes me sad :smallfrown:

There is still reserve spell abuse!

[candycorn]

While it does hold true at those levels your original statement was "The problem is, a Focused Specialist Wizard gets more spells per day at each level than a sorceror", which is wrong, as you have just proven.
Perhaps I should clarify. I thought that this would be obvious, but, since you're more caught up on proving me wrong than recognizing the point, let me make the statement fully, and more clearly.

When building a mailman for actual play, for all levels where the mailman is actually using mailman tactics (as opposed to standard wizard tactics), the Wizard has equal to or greater spell slots per level. Indeed, the wizard has more overall spells per day (and at higher levels, to boot) at all odd levels in this range, and, at all levels prior to 20, equal spells per day (and greater overall spell power). For this range, at odd levels, the wizard has three more spells at his highest spell level, in exchange for one less spell two spell levels lower. Also for this range, at even levels, the wizard has one more spell at his highest spell level, and one less spell two spell levels lower.

Only at level 20 does the sorceror actually tie the wizard's spells per day, in this case. As the common levels played are generally between 6 and 15, the original statement holds completely true for all meaningful purposes for most games. This revised (and much less concise) statement holds true for games that do reach level 20.

...there. Has your thirst for correcting me until I am perfectly correct, rather than functionally correct, been slaked?

[Socratov]

Personally, if the wizard has to contort his build (like focused specialist, banning 3? schools) the sorc has won, at appropriate levels the sorc is gaining versitality while the wizard narrows himself down more and more, losing the wizard's key and signature ability: to able to do effing everything. another win is the moment a wizard has to 'steal' or 'copy' abilities when his own don't prove effective enough.

Sure the wizard could do it, but in that case, what would the wizard lose by gaining the ability to do that.

For the sorc the mailman is easier (and more efficiently) accomplished by using it's main features, for a wizard it's by forgoing a few main features.

[candycorn]

Personally, if the wizard has to contort his build (like focused specialist, banning 3? schools) the sorc has won, at appropriate levels the sorc is gaining versitality while the wizard narrows himself down more and more, losing the wizard's key and signature ability: to able to do effing everything. another win is the moment a wizard has to 'steal' or 'copy' abilities when his own don't prove effective enough.

Sure the wizard could do it, but in that case, what would the wizard lose by gaining the ability to do that.

For the sorc the mailman is easier (and more efficiently) accomplished by using it's main features, for a wizard it's by forgoing a few main features.

I would wager that a wizard has much more versatility with 5 schools, and all 1,000 spells in each school, than a sorceror, with all schools, and no more than 34 spells known at levels 1 through 9.

Focused Specialists are still far more versatile than Sorcerors. If you can't find the right spell in a list that size, with a freakin' Conjuration focus... Then you're doing it wrong.

[Darth_Versity]

...there. Has your thirst for correcting me until I am perfectly correct, rather than functionally correct, been slaked?

And here was me not taking the whole thing all that seriously. I guess i'm just not as dedicated to char op as you are. I bow to your superior argumentative skills :smalltongue:


Personally, if the wizard has to contort his build (like focused specialist, banning 3? schools) the sorc has won, at appropriate levels the sorc is gaining versitality while the wizard narrows himself down more and more, losing the wizard's key and signature ability: to able to do effing everything. another win is the moment a wizard has to 'steal' or 'copy' abilities when his own don't prove effective enough.

Sure the wizard could do it, but in that case, what would the wizard lose by gaining the ability to do that.

For the sorc the mailman is easier (and more efficiently) accomplished by using it's main features, for a wizard it's by forgoing a few main features.

This is the one saving grace I guess. To have an equal or better casting the wizard must sacrifice a lot. But it still doesn't change the fact that a wizard is 1 spell level ahead half the time (or should I say 40% of the time, right Socratov? :smallwink:) which offers the chance to do more.

I still prefer Sorcerers to Wizards though. For theoretic op the Wizard is better, but in play the hassle of preparing spells is to much work. A good mailman sorcerer is ready to go after a bit rest without the worry about what he'll need for the day.

Hell, i'd take a mailman Warmage over a Wizard, cause its just that much easier to play.

[Doug Lampert]

At the cost of losing out on Metamagic Reducers. There's a reason that the first Mailman was a wizard. They're more powerful, more versatile, and there's Searing Spell for immunity, if you need to. With 800 damage, at level 13? You can kill a CR 20 Red dragon with a searing spell orb of fire, admixtured acid. In one shot.

So, about immunities?

Also, it's a feat heavy build type. Who gets bonus feats out of the wizard and sorcerer?

[candycorn]

And here was me not taking the whole thing all that seriously. I guess i'm just not as dedicated to char op as you are. I bow to your superior argumentative skills :smalltongue:Eh. I figure nitpicking and light snark are right about on par.


This is the one saving grace I guess. To have an equal or better casting the wizard must sacrifice a lot. But it still doesn't change the fact that a wizard is 1 spell level ahead half the time (or should I say 40% of the time, right Socratov? :smallwink:) which offers the chance to do more.You're right, the wizard must sacrifice a lot. 37.5% of his 5,000 or so spells, as compared to the sorceror's... What is it? 34? 43, if we're counting cantrips?


I still prefer Sorcerers to Wizards though. For theoretic op the Wizard is better, but in play the hassle of preparing spells is to much work. A good mailman sorcerer is ready to go after a bit rest without the worry about what he'll need for the day.

Hell, i'd take a mailman Warmage over a Wizard, cause its just that much easier to play.Lotta people overstate this. In practice, a wizard's daily spell list is a matter of refinement. From one day to the next, you swap out the spells that aren't working so well with more relevant ones. Eventually, you've got a pretty sexy list that doesn't change a lot, unless you're expecting something out of the ordinary.

And that's why, the vast majority of the time, a wizard rests, spends 1 hour more, and he's good to go... and the amount of time the player needs to spend? About the same. Difference is, when the sorceror is thinking, "Damn, I shouldn't have picked Chill Touch", the wizard is thinking, "Damn, I shouldn't have picked Chill Touch. I'll change it tomorrow."


Also, it's a feat heavy build type. Who gets bonus feats out of the wizard and sorcerer?
Neither, really, if we're being good casters, and PrCing at the first opportunity.

[nedz]

Personally, if the wizard has to contort his build (like focused specialist, banning 3? schools) the sorc has won, at appropriate levels the sorc is gaining versitality while the wizard narrows himself down more and more, losing the wizard's key and signature ability: to able to do effing everything. another win is the moment a wizard has to 'steal' or 'copy' abilities when his own don't prove effective enough.

Sure the wizard could do it, but in that case, what would the wizard lose by gaining the ability to do that.

For the sorc the mailman is easier (and more efficiently) accomplished by using it's main features, for a wizard it's by forgoing a few main features.

Since the object of the exercise here is to build a mailman: this point is entirely irrelevant. With a wider goal of being a more flexible caster then of course you are right.

Ed: I must learn to read some time

[candycorn]

Since the object of the exercise here is to build a mailman: this point is entirely irrelevant. With a wider goal of being a more flexible caster then of course you are right.

No, he's not. 67.5% of 5000 is greater than 40. The wizard can ban 4 schools, and still have twice the versatility of a sorceror.

[Yuukale]

May I suggest a contest like iron chief where you guys would build a wizard-based mailman and a sorcerer-based mailman to better prove your point? :smallamused: that'd be interesting to see. :smallcool:

[Tvtyrant]

I would suggest Sorc/Spellwarp Sniper/Incantatrix for Wings of Flurry, which is a sorc only spell that does uncapped force damage.

[candycorn]

Why? The Mailman was created by Emperor Tippy. His trademark build for it? Was named Cindy.

It wasn't ever officially published, but we have something very similar to it, earlier in the thread.

I've already demonstrated how a wizard can, at level 13, one shot a CR 20 Red Dragon, with an Orb of Fire.


With an Orb of Ice, that wizard could take on a CR 26, with maximum HP per HD, provided he hits.

[Draz74]

As far as the "Wizards are ahead one spell level 40% of the time" argument goes, there's always Kobold cheese to consider ... (And if I were the DM, I would allow the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, for the very reason that it basically puts Sorcs on equal footing with Wizards. Then I would ban all the other Kobold cheese.)

And while Wizard is undeniably more flexible than Sorcerer, it becomes a very, very close contest if Knowstones, sensible magic item choices, one level's worth of Kobold cheese, and Sorc-only spells are involved. So if you are going for a direct-damage build who doesn't care about flexibility, I can definitely see the argument that Sorcerer (with all these other bells and whistles) can actually be just as good as Wizard.


I would suggest Sorc/Spellwarp Sniper/Incantatrix for Wings of Flurry, which is a sorc only spell that does uncapped force damage.

You left out the best part of this combo: no-Save Daze the target for one round in addition to the damage!

[Snowbluff]

I would suggest Sorc/Spellwarp Sniper/Incantatrix for Wings of Flurry, which is a sorc only spell that does uncapped force damage.

IIRC correctly, the Mailman relies on several Sorc-only spells. Like... IDK... Greater Arcane Fusion! Something like this is something that should not be subject to the oversight of Wizard Mailman supporters.

[Essence_of_War]

IIRC correctly, the Mailman relies on several Sorc-only spells. Like... IDK... Greater Arcane Fusion! Something like this is something that should not be subject to the oversight of Wizard Mailman supporters.


As CandyCorn and DeAnno have pointed out, The Mailman looks a little different if you're coming at it from a Wizard or Sorcerer angle.

DeAnno's Mailman (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer) is basically built around metamagic abuse, action economy abuse, and Target/Save/SR abuse. By combining spellsurge + fusions + metamagic'd orbs + true strike/casting its goal is to deal tons of direct damage. There is no reason why a wizard can't also abuse metamagic, action economy, and targeting/save/SR. A properly built wizard can and will do all of these things, but it's a notable role for the sorcerer because of a number of cool sorcerer-only options that play into the strategy.

The spells you listed are the cool sorcerer only options, but you don't NEED to use those particular spells to abuse metamagic and action economy to the end of dealing direct damage.

tl;dr

All that's necessary to play like The Mailman is the abuse of metamagic and action economy to the end of dealing direct damage.

The cool-sorcerer only options are sufficient to duplicate this style, but not totally necessary.

[tyckspoon]

IIRC correctly, the Mailman relies on several Sorc-only spells. Like... IDK... Greater Arcane Fusion! Something like this is something that should not be subject to the oversight of Wizard Mailman supporters.

Eh..'relies on' is inaccurate; it makes it sound like you need those spells to make it work. You don't. A Wizard-based Mailman still blows up everything up to and including some of the weaker gods with a single casting (he might need a Quickened True Strike to help with their higher touch ACs.) Throwing in things like Arcane Spellsurge and (Greater) Arcane Fusion is basically a Mythbusters-like exercise in excess- it's the part of the show where they go 'ok, we know it works, let's see what happens when we fill it *all the way* with explosives!'

Which is to say, if you're trying to hit the record for Most Damage From a Single Spellslot, then yes, you 'rely' on Greater Arcane Fusion. From a practical perspective, it's unnecessary.

[candycorn]

Precisely. It's possible to do mailman with a Psion dip and Cerebremancer so that you can take advantage of a psion's ability to bend over action economy.

It's possible to do it with Celerity + Immunity to Daze, and other such things...

But truth be told? If something can survive a shot from the wizard, then you have no business fighting it.

If a group can survive a chained shot from the wizard, then you have no business fighting any of them.

And the wizard will have more options for making that delivery stick. Dispels, more varied buffs and divinations, and more.

[Snowbluff]

As CandyCorn and DeAnno have pointed out, The Mailman looks a little different if you're coming at it from a Wizard or Sorcerer angle.

DeAnno's Mailman (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer) is basically built around metamagic abuse, action economy abuse, and Target/Save/SR abuse. By combining spellsurge + fusions + metamagic'd orbs + true strike/casting its goal is to deal tons of direct damage. There is no reason why a wizard can't also abuse metamagic, action economy, and targeting/save/SR. A properly built wizard can and will do all of these things, but it's a notable role for the sorcerer because of a number of cool sorcerer-only options that play into the strategy.

The spells you listed are the cool sorcerer only options, but you don't NEED to use those particular spells to abuse metamagic and action economy to the end of dealing direct damage.

tl;dr

All that's necessary to play like The Mailman is the abuse of metamagic and action economy to the end of dealing direct damage.

The cool-sorcerer only options are sufficient to duplicate this style, but not totally necessary.

Yes, we've all read the thread.

Oh no no no. Just because you don't need to, doesn't mean you don't have to. If you aren't abusing it entirely, you aren't abusing it enough. being a Sorc does just that. You get the nifty Action economy spells specific to the Sorc.

Now, if their are any Wizard specific spells, that is where we'll form a difference. The fact of the matter is a blaster Wizard only effectively knows as many spells as he has prepared, and if any of these are not available to the Sorceror is the only time we'll have a practical difference past a Caster level(BTW, Loredrake Kobolds).

So, are there any spells or class features that I should be made aware of that imitate or are superior to the trusty Fusion that grant a Wizard similar Action Economy?

TL;DR I need to know what makes the Wizard Mailman unique in respect to a similar Sorc Mailman build.

[nedz]

Since the object of the exercise here is to build a mailman: this point is entirely irrelevant. With a wider goal of being a more flexible caster then of course you are right.


No, he's not. 67.5% of 5000 is greater than 40. The wizard can ban 4 schools, and still have twice the versatility of a sorceror.

Oops: It seems I misread the post I was quoting.
I should have typed:
Since the object of the exercise here is to build a mailman: this point is entirely irrelevant. With a wider goal of being a more flexible caster then of course the Wizard is better.

[Greenish]

As far as the "Wizards are ahead one spell level 40% of the time" argument goes, there's always Kobold cheese to consider ... Part of that kobold cheese is switching your casting from sorcerer to wizard. :smallamused:

[Socratov]

gheh, let's just keep it on, wizard mailman is immensely cool, but the sorc mailman is sligtly cooler then the wizard (as it should be, seeing the different castingstats they employ)

[DeAnno]

For the record on spells per day, though I find Loredrake is a bit too cheesy for play, the fully RAI Greater Rite of Draconic Passage is not, and such a Kobold will beat even a focused specialist wizard in spells per day. The relative feat cost of two (one from the feat for Greater Rite and one from Wizard 5) is significant at that point though, so ymmv on that argument.

I think one could also make the argument that if all you'll typically use are the spells a Sorcerer could know, the Sorcerer's spontaneous casting is in this instance superior to the Wizard's prepared because of flexibility not only in element type but targeting method. A Sorcerer can have Force Charged Energy (level 5 ACF) and Arcane Thesis in both Orb of Electricity and Acid Rain (HoB, 5th level). This lets him either hit groups of enemies at long range with no check for less damage or single enemies at close range with a ranged touch attack for higher damage. For that one extra feat, he can vary up not only his energy types but his range and targeting method as well, and if he fears either energy type will be ineffective he can make them half force damage at his option. And most importantly, he can use either spell as the situation requires, without having to split up his slots between them (and other things too!) in advance.

Also, using chain spell on a Mailman for anything other than Greater Dispel Magic is kinda silly since the extra reflex saves vs damage make it pretty awful with the Mailman's lousy DCs.

And for the record, the "Mailman" was developed in complete isolation from Cindy; I only learned about that build after publishing. From what I've heard Cindy has little emphasis on targeting (which is my central subject of paranoia) and is mainly focused on big metamagic damage wedded to some of the standard Wizard tricks.

[candycorn]

Oops: It seems I misread the post I was quoting.
I should have typed:
Since the object of the exercise here is to build a mailman: this point is entirely irrelevant. With a wider goal of being a more flexible caster then of course the Wizard is better.

The object is to build a mailman.

Which is more useful to have in a mailman:

a) the ability to do 100 times the damage of a creature's HP, with little versatility

or

b) the ability to do 10 times the damage of a creature's HP, with much versatility

??

(b) is better. Thus the "better mailman" isn't the one that cranks out the most raw damage, but the one that is the best caster, while cranking out enough raw damage.

[nedz]

The object is to build a mailman.

Which is more useful to have in a mailman:

a) the ability to do 100 times the damage of a creature's HP, with little versatility

or

b) the ability to do 10 times the damage of a creature's HP, with much versatility

??

(b) is better. Thus the "better mailman" isn't the one that cranks out the most raw damage, but the one that is the best caster, while cranking out enough raw damage.

Now you have mis-read the post I originally quoted :smallbiggrin:

[candycorn]

Now you have mis-read the post I originally quoted :smallbiggrin:

I beg to differ. I just believe it is wrong.

You speak of a mailman as if it has one and only one purpose, and that purpose is to deal as much damage per target as humanly possible.

I speak of mailman as if it has the primary function of killing enemies with direct damage, with additional capabilities being nice bonuses, but not ultimately necessary.

Therefore, a Sorceror who can deal a million damage in a round to 1 creature that has 200 HP?

Is identically effective to a Wizard that deals 800 damage to the same creature.

They are equally effective in the primary function, which is to kill creatures via direct damage.

Now, take the second measure, "nice, but not necessary". If the sorceror can do damage, and little else, and the wizard can do many more things?

Then the wizard is not just a better caster. The wizard is a better Mailman too.

The difference between a 10 pound bag and a 20 pound bag is irrelevant, if you only need to hold 3 pounds of stuff.

The wizard can accomplish every task required of a mailman build, including killing creatures 10 CR above it, effortlessly.

On a side note: It's also not very easy to get into incantatrix as a sorceror. And that's a very powerful and useful part of a mailman build.

[Snowbluff]

Yeah... I don't know about you, but I run into creature that have way more health than they should more often than I care to admit. Sorc does more damage, and we are looking for raw damage output. You also run into whatever happens when you don't pack enough crazy MM Orbs for the day.

You can still grab the Sorc some more versatile spells as well, it's not like blasting will take all of his slots, and Knowstones are listed in the Mailman Thread for a reason.

[candycorn]

Yeah... I don't know about you, but I run into creature that have way more health than they should more often than I care to admit. Sorc does more damage, and we are looking for raw damage output. You also run into whatever happens when you don't pack enough crazy MM Orbs for the day.
.

You're right. You do often run into creatures with more HP than they should.

Which is why I set the bar at a High HP creature (dragon), at CR +8 (Wizard 12 vs CR 20), that is immune to the primary element that the wizard is using (Fire).

And it still did 25% more damage than required to kill it. With one spell. Not counting the fact that it can throw a second orb, for similar damage, quickened, in that round.

What this means is, at level 12, a mailman wizard can, provided he hits, outright kill two CR 20 High HP creatures that are immune to his primary element, or four that are not immune to it.

I set the bar for my test of "is this a mailman" ridiculously high. No listed entry, within the bounds of the rules, from CR 1-20, can withstand a round from the level 12 wizard I built, without being outright immune to damage.

At this point, accuracy is the key. Then other added benefits. Wizards have, far, far greater versatility and endurance, as well (Mnemonic Enhancer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mnemonicEnhancer.htm) can be put into a wand, after all. 50 castings gets you the ability to prepare up to 150 additional spell levels.)

Wizards are also more easily able to have the spells required to approach, engage, and hit the target. A billion damage doesn't help if you don't hit, or can't find the target.

In order to successfully be a mailman, you have to be able to locate, hit, and kill a target, via direct damage.

The wizard is more capable, through versatility, at that task.

[DeAnno]

Which is why I set the bar at a High HP creature (dragon), at CR +8 (Wizard 12 vs CR 20), that is immune to the primary element that the wizard is using (Fire).


You don't get the point. Multiple actions aren't for more damage, they are for multiple kills. Instead of 1 CR +8, there may be 3 CR +4s, which you must kill this turn or suffer severe consequences. The Sorcerer can do that and do it reliably, and the Wizard cannot. Not everything is a 1v1: as a Mailman you may well be the primary alpha strike investment of the party, and frequently if you do not kill two or even three things before they act in a far above ECL encounter, or a more normal encounter with very bad circumstances otherwise, the situation will go directly down the toilet immediately.

Edits were below this line since I didn't want to doublepost before:



At this point, accuracy is the key. Then other added benefits. Wizards have, far, far greater versatility and endurance, as well (Mnemonic Enhancer can be put into a wand, after all. 50 castings gets you the ability to prepare up to 150 additional spell levels.)


150 levels of 3rd level spells or lower, which are nearly worthless to you if they can't be quickened somehow (while still being 3rd level or lower).



Wizards are also more easily able to have the spells required to approach, engage, and hit the target. A billion damage doesn't help if you don't hit, or can't find the target.

In order to successfully be a mailman, you have to be able to locate, hit, and kill a target, via direct damage.

The wizard is more capable, through versatility, at that task.


The Mailman isn't Batman.

The Mailman is not there to "find" targets in the strategic sense (he will pack the spells for the tactical sense of finding), nor raise undead armies, nor mind control kings, nor cook dinner, nor do the laundry. He has party members for those things, since the Mailman recognizes D&D is a team game and doesn't fly solo. The Mailman is there to murder people in combat before they murder his friends. A Sorc spells known list can pack all the spells he needs to do his job, and if he needs a few more he can easily buy Runestaves or perhaps even Knowstones. If he can't find the right Runestave, and you really need that extra spell, that's something a party member can probably help with.

[candycorn]

You don't get the point. Multiple actions aren't for more damage, they are for multiple kills. Instead of 1 CR +8, there may be 3 CR +4s, which you must kill this turn or suffer severe consequences. The Sorcerer can do that and do it reliably, and the Wizard cannot. Not everything is a 1v1: as a Mailman you may well be the primary alpha strike investment of the party, and frequently if you do not kill two or even three things before they act in a far above ECL encounter, or a more normal encounter with very bad circumstances otherwise, the situation will go directly down the toilet immediately.

Yes, I do.

Let's look at 8 Storm Giants (CR 19).

Let's look at that 800 damage Alpha Strike.

Split ray, so 2 targets. Twin Spell, so 4 targets. Average damage per? 200.

Quickened followup? Another 4 targets.

Now, let's see. Investment: 2 spell slots. Dividend: CR +7, multiple high HP enemies, all down. This is an absolutely ridiculously high CR for an entire party. It's so high, that the XP for the encounter isn't even listed. Heck, halve the number of giants, and the encounter XP STILL isn't listed. And it's still dealt with.

If not, there's always celerity, +1 more slot for mopping up the remnants.

Any statement that begins with "a wizard can't do..." is setting itself up for failure.

Yes, the sorceror may be better at killing in excess of 10 enemies, all at CR = party level. But in that case, Psion is better at this than sorceror, because by level 15, the number of enemies it can kill is "whatever it wants". Of that, the targets can be any distance apart. Because the psion will be able to take as many actions in one round as he wants.

Yeah, the individual hits will be smaller, but they will never end, and the psion will never have to lose a single power point.


The Mailman isn't Batman.

The Mailman is not there to "find" targets in the strategic sense (he will pack the spells for the tactical sense of finding), nor raise undead armies, nor mind control kings, nor cook dinner, nor do the laundry. He has party members for those things, since the Mailman recognizes D&D is a team game and doesn't fly solo. The Mailman is there to murder people in combat before they murder his friends. A Sorc spells known list can pack all the spells he needs to do his job, and if he needs a few more he can easily buy Runestaves or perhaps even Knowstones. If he can't find the right Runestave, and you really need that extra spell, that's something a party member can probably help with.
Correction: YOUR Mailman isn't batman.

Mine is both batman AND mailman. Because the game IS a team game, and having more tools in the team toolbox means you're a better team.

Especially when both pack a hammer big enough to kill anything, or even any four CR-appropriate things, that the DM can throw. Even against stupidly difficult odds.

[DeAnno]

Nice choice of enemies: unbuffed (lol) Dragons and Giants. These things are easy to hit with Ranged Touch attacks, and you're also ignoring SR on the Dragon (assuming you're using a ray, since you used Split Ray in the other example) and the need to buff up to punch through it. Things like enemy class level NPCs, and monsters with gear or buffs, are not so easy to hit that you just plunk all your efforts into a couple unbuffed spells and everything's honky dory.

[candycorn]

Nice choice of enemies: unbuffed (lol) Dragons and Giants. These things are easy to hit with Ranged Touch attacks, and you're also ignoring SR on the Dragon and the need to buff up to punch through it. Things like enemy class level NPCs, and monsters with gear or buffs, are not so easy to hit that you just plunk all your efforts into a couple unbuffed spells and everything's honky dory.

Spell Used was: Orb of Fire.

SR: No.

Therefore, yes, I am ignoring the need to deal with SR, and the need to buff up to punch through it, because that's what SR: No spells do. In addition, Searing spell punches through all resistances and most immunities.

I literally listed killing a CR 20 RED DRAGON with a FIRE SPELL cast by a caster 8 LEVELS LOWER, and you're calling shenanigans?

Really?

As for giants? I picked the highest HP enemies I could find in the CR 13 range, since wizard's lower damage output was being questioned.

[DeAnno]

How are you using Orbs on the Dragon and Split Ray (Rays are SR Yes) on the Giants? How did you know to prepare enough Orbs in case you ran into Dragons and enough Split Rays for running into Giants?

Also, how the heck did you HIT through the CR 20 Dragon's Scintillating Scales.

[absolmorph]

The object is to build a mailman.

Which is more useful to have in a mailman:

a) the ability to do 100 times the damage of a creature's HP, with little versatility

or

b) the ability to do 10 times the damage of a creature's HP, with much versatility

??

(b) is better. Thus the "better mailman" isn't the one that cranks out the most raw damage, but the one that is the best caster, while cranking out enough raw damage.
I feel I must disagree.
The better mailman is the one which accomplishes its goal (kill everything) with maximum player enjoyment.
Thus, for me, it would be sorcerer, since I do so love being pretty and flirting with the universe so it bends the laws of physics to my will. However, for you, it would apparently be wizard, since you would like to be the team toolbox.
That's fine.
Both work.

[candycorn]

How are you using Orbs on the Dragon and Split Ray (Rays are SR Yes) on the Giants? How did you know to prepare enough Orbs in case you ran into Dragons and enough Split Rays for running into Giants?

Also, how the heck did you HIT through the CR 20 Dragon's Scintillating Scales.

First: Ocular Spell to turn the orbs into Rays. This metamagic feat doesn't alter the SR: No of the spell. So now, they are SR: No rays. Which addresses both of the first questions. In addition, it can chain, which means that the primary giant takes 800, and up to 12 more take 400.

Second: Ocular spells are pre-loaded. That means that quickened true strike, or quickened greater dispel Magic (via incantatrix) can handle that the scintillating scales. And it takes next to no investment to get a dispel check high enough to dispel CL 25 spells at level 12-13.

[DeAnno]

Only Ray spells and spells with a target other than personal can be cast as Ocular spells. All Orbs are effect spells which create an Orb that you then use; they have no target line, and cannot be shoved into your eyeballs.

[candycorn]

Only Ray spells and spells with a target other than personal can be cast as Ocular spells. All Orbs are effect spells which create an Orb that you then use; they have no target line, and cannot be shoved into your eyeballs.

Incorrect. The Long Text description of the spell trumps the overview at the top.


An orb of acid about 3 inches across shoots from your palm at its target. ... You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target.

The spell has a target, because the written description of the spell says it does. That trumps overview, that trumps the "Effect" line in the summary.

[DeAnno]

The Orb (which is nonmagical once formed, as it can fly straight into an AMF) has a target, the spell does not. But about this, and about many other things, it is unlikely we will ever agree.

[Acanous]

THAT part is easy.
Read the spell description at the top.
Where it lists Target, is the target "You", "One Orb, which you summon", or "One creature"?
If it's either of the first two, ocular spell doesn't work. If it's the last one, it works fine.

Ocular spell is like Invisible spell. The designers really didn't think it all the way through before implimentation. By RAW, though, you can shoot unicorn missiles out your eyes if you really wanna.
With spell Thematics they can even trail rainbows behind them.

[candycorn]

THAT part is easy.
Read the spell description at the top.
Where it lists Target, is the target "You", "One Orb, which you summon", or "One creature"?
If it's either of the first two, ocular spell doesn't work. If it's the last one, it works fine.

Ocular spell is like Invisible spell. The designers really didn't think it all the way through before implimentation. By RAW, though, you can shoot unicorn missiles out your eyes if you really wanna.
With spell Thematics they can even trail rainbows behind them.

Bolded statement is not accurate, as the written text below the description always trumps the description. Since the written text lists aiming at your target, the spell has a target.


The Orb (which is nonmagical once formed, as it can fly straight into an AMF) has a target, the spell does not. But about this, and about many other things, it is unlikely we will ever agree.

Correct. Since you see the "Spell Description" as meaning "a description of an orb, which is not a spell, and has a target". I see the "spell description" as meaning "a description of the spell's effects."

EDIT:
Descriptive Text
This portion of a spell description details what the spell does and how it works. If one of the previous entries in the description included "see text," this is where the explanation is found.

Luckily, the rules agree with me. That text is describing what the spell does, and how the spell works. Not how the "non-spell orb" works.

[Douglas]

Second: Ocular spells are pre-loaded. That means that quickened true strike, or quickened greater dispel Magic (via incantatrix) can handle that the scintillating scales.
How, exactly, is Incantatrix getting you Quicken on GDM? Cooperative Metamagic would require the Incantatrix to be a separate character helping you, and it can't do Quicken anyway. Metamagic Effect is for after-the-fact alterations to an ongoing spell and is ineligible for multiple reasons. Instant Metamagic got errata that prevents it from exceeding the cap of your highest level spell slot. That leaves nothing that could do what you claim as far as I can tell.


And it takes next to no investment to get a dispel check high enough to dispel CL 25 spells at level 12-13.
With a lucky roll? Yes, it's easy. Reliably? How? Remember, the DC isn't the spell's caster level, but 11 plus the spell's caster level. Dispelling a CL 25 spell requires a 36 on the dispel check.


Correct. Since you see the "Spell Description" as meaning "a description of an orb, which is not a spell, and has a target". I see the "spell description" as meaning "a description of the spell's effects."

EDIT:

Luckily, the rules agree with me. That text is describing what the spell does, and how the spell works. Not how the "non-spell orb" works.
Directly from the spell text:

An orb of acid about 3 inches across shoots from your palm at its target

You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target.

The spell text states that A) the orb has a target, and B) you, the caster, have a target. It does not state that the spell has a target. Therefore it does not override the general specification (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#aimingASpell) of spell description format, which specifies that "target" and "effect" spells are distinct non-overlapping types of spells determined by a line in the header section.

[nedz]

I beg to differ. I just believe it is wrong.

You speak of a mailman as if it has one and only one purpose, and that purpose is to deal as much damage per target as humanly possible.

I speak of mailman as if it has the primary function of killing enemies with direct damage, with additional capabilities being nice bonuses, but not ultimately necessary.

Therefore, a Sorceror who can deal a million damage in a round to 1 creature that has 200 HP?

Is identically effective to a Wizard that deals 800 damage to the same creature.

They are equally effective in the primary function, which is to kill creatures via direct damage.

Now, take the second measure, "nice, but not necessary". If the sorceror can do damage, and little else, and the wizard can do many more things?

Then the wizard is not just a better caster. The wizard is a better Mailman too.

The difference between a 10 pound bag and a 20 pound bag is irrelevant, if you only need to hold 3 pounds of stuff.

The wizard can accomplish every task required of a mailman build, including killing creatures 10 CR above it, effortlessly.

On a side note: It's also not very easy to get into incantatrix as a sorceror. And that's a very powerful and useful part of a mailman build.

I think you are building a Strawman here.

[candycorn]

How, exactly, is Incantatrix getting you Quicken on GDM? Cooperative Metamagic would require the Incantatrix to be a separate character helping you, and it can't do Quicken anyway. Metamagic Effect is for after-the-fact alterations to an ongoing spell and is ineligible for multiple reasons. Instant Metamagic got errata that prevents it from exceeding the cap of your highest level spell slot. That leaves nothing that could do what you claim as far as I can tell.


With a lucky roll? Yes, it's easy. Reliably? How? Remember, the DC isn't the spell's caster level, but 11 plus the spell's caster level. Dispelling a CL 25 spell requires a 36 on the dispel check.


Directly from the spell text:



The spell text states that A) the orb has a target, and B) you, the caster, have a target. It does not state that the spell has a target. Therefore it does not override the general specification (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#aimingASpell) of spell description format, which specifies that "target" and "effect" spells are distinct non-overlapping types of spells determined by a line in the header section.
The spell text states that the orb is part of the spell's effects. Part of the spell's effects target. Therefore, the spell targets.

[SirFredgar]

Yes, I do.

Let's look at 8 Storm Giants (CR 19).

Let's look at that 800 damage Alpha Strike.

Split ray, so 2 targets. Twin Spell, so 4 targets. Average damage per? 200.

Quickened followup? Another 4 targets.



Doesn't twin make you set the -same- targets/area for both copies of the spell?

[candycorn]

Doesn't twin make you set the -same- targets/area for both copies of the spell?

It was later corrected to Chain, which hits one giant for 800, and all others are chained for 400.

Alternately, 2 giants for 400 (split ray), and all others for 200 from each of the first 2, for a total of up to 14 targets being hit for enough to kill them if they pass their saves.

[SirFredgar]

It was later corrected to Chain, which hits one giant for 800, and all others are chained for 400.

Alternately, 2 giants for 400 (split ray), and all others for 200 from each of the first 2, for a total of up to 14 targets being hit for enough to kill them if they pass their saves.


This is why I prefer the sorcerer. I would prefer that my enemy doesn't get a save. And, on the off chance I abandon this mindset, I can always just use a rod of chaining to accomplish the same effect.

[candycorn]

This is why I prefer the sorcerer. I would prefer that my enemy doesn't get a save. And, on the off chance I abandon this mindset, I can always just use a rod of chaining to accomplish the same effect.

You can prefer that, if you like. My personal preference is that the save is irrelevant. If they get a save, roll a 20, and still die?

Mission Accomplished.

[SirFredgar]

You can prefer that, if you like. My personal preference is that the save is irrelevant. If they get a save, roll a 20, and still die?

Mission Accomplished.

Yeah, but evasion is not hard to aquire. It's a 2 level dip, 4th level spell, or ring away from save and no damage. This is one of the whole mindsets of the "mailman". You controll the outcome. The second you give the enemy any kind of saving throw you put it in their hands. If that particular enemy has invested in upping saves or nabbing evasion, then you may get a 0 damage return. Anything > 0.

While I will not argue the wizard still is more versitile, and I would be silly if I did, I'm still in favor of the hard hitting power and action economy mechanic that the sorcerer offers over the wizard for direct damage, as well as the ability to alter my stragedy mid battle if the GM throws a curve ball my way.

[candycorn]

Yeah, but evasion is not hard to aquire. It's a 2 level dip, 4th level spell, or ring away from save and no damage. This is one of the whole mindsets of the "mailman". You controll the outcome. The second you give the enemy any kind of saving throw you put it in their hands. If that particular enemy has invested in upping saves or nabbing evasion, then you may get a 0 damage return. Anything > 0.You can still control the outcome. You can kill 2 high CR targets with evasion easily enough, or 14 without.


While I will not argue the wizard still is more versitile, and I would be silly if I did, I'm still in favor of the hard hitting power and action economy mechanic that the sorcerer offers over the wizard for direct damage, as well as the ability to alter my stragedy mid battle if the GM throws a curve ball my way.
You're arguing for the silver medalist, then. There is no reason to use second place. If you want superior damage, a la mailman, use psion. If you want versatility, use wizard. Sorceror sucks hind teat in both categories to someone.

Also, wizards can alter strategy mid battle. That's kinda what versatility IS, last I checked.

[SirFredgar]

Also, wizards can alter strategy mid battle. That's kinda what versatility IS, last I checked.

I was referring to the ability to cast any spell known by the sorcerer and alter metamagic combos to suit vs a fixed preperation. And I will not comment on the psion, simply because it has no relvence in a Wizard vs Sorcerer mailman discussion. Also: I don't know the class... at all. Any of the gaming groups I've been in do not alow psionic characters for one reason or another... but the Arcanists are always on the table.


You can still control the outcome. You can kill 2 high CR targets with evasion easily enough, or 14 without.

I would prefer 4 high CR targets with evasion or 28 without, through Arcane spellsurge and GAF.

[candycorn]

I was referring to the ability to cast any spell known by the sorcerer and alter metamagic combos to suit vs a fixed preperation. And I will not comment on the psion, simply because it has no relvence in a Wizard vs Sorcerer mailman discussion. Also: I don't know the class... at all. Any of the gaming groups I've been in do not alow psionic characters for one reason or another... but the Arcanists are always on the table. The issue was the Mailman. Not just wizard and sorceror. Psion can do it too, and far better.



I would prefer 4 high CR targets with evasion or 28 without, through Arcane spellsurge and GAF.
So, so far outside the scope of standard play as to be unrealistic to even high powered games?

Then go with Psion. It does "All targets, regardless of CR or evasion, with no expediture of consumable resources."

I mean, really, if you're going to require ridiculous standards to qualify? Then we may as well go whole hog on the matter.

As said, if you want maximum direct damage proficiency, with that being your only concern, psion is the optimal class.

If you want high direct damage proficiency, whilst keeping versatility and power for resolving other issues, then Wizard is the optimal class.

If you want second place in the first, and third place in the second, then by all means, pick sorceror.

[SirFredgar]

So, so far outside the scope of standard play as to be unrealistic to even high powered games?


I already thought the CR20 Dragons and Giants were pretty unrealistic. This, however does not change the fact that in this niche, the Sorcerer beats the wizard, even though you so casually dismissed it.

He doesn't have to spend a feat on searing spell, putting him even with the wizard in terms of feat resources, or one ahead if the wizard has to spend a feat for quicken spell. This means he can pretty much do everything the Wizard can in terms of metamagic, more times per turn, with less spell slot investment, and more reliably. He doesn't need to use all those spells for direct damage, but can pick and choose between enough DD for the task at hand, and the spells needed to make sure that enough damage gets through... every time.

About the psion: Once again, it's a moot point to me as I probably can't roll psion. If he's a better mailman than the sorcerer, more power to him... but that also makes him better then the wizard, because I still see the Sorcerer as the better choice for this highly-specific role.

[candycorn]

I already thought the CR20 Dragons and Giants were pretty unrealistic. This, however does not change the fact that in this niche, the Sorcerer beats the wizard, even though you so casually dismissed it.

He doesn't have to spend a feat on searing spell, putting him even with the wizard in terms of feat resources, or one ahead if the wizard has to spend a feat for quicken spell. This means he can pretty much do everything the Wizard can in terms of metamagic, more times per turn, with less spell slot investment, and more reliably. He doesn't need to use all those spells for direct damage, but can pick and choose between enough DD for the task at hand, and the spells needed to make sure that enough damage gets through... every time.

About the psion: Once again, it's a moot point to me as I probably can't roll psion. If he's a better mailman than the sorcerer, more power to him... but that also makes him better then the wizard, because I still see the Sorcerer as the better choice for this highly-specific role.

If your argument is, "while functionally identical in damage in 99.99999% of situations, sorceror, when faced with encounters that are great enough in number and challenge as to be a clear message that the DM intends your death, then in that one, incredibly miniscule, practically nonexistent niche, that will then simply be followed by 'rocks fall, roll up a new character', then I argue that the sorceror is more capable... and in all other cases, wizard is fully capable of filling this role adequately, whilst retaining superior flexibility and versatility, making for a more effective character filling the position of mailman"...

Well then, you've made my point for me. In virtually all situations, wizard will be able to do the same job in DD, and a superior job in all other areas.

If not, please review the point I just made. Your "niche" is a situation that is akin to, "but a general electric oven has superior aerodynamic qualities when dropped from the back of a cargo plane mid-flight over another brand".

Possibly true, but functionally meaningless.

Wizard is better at "reading the address" (identifying the target to be hit)
Wizard is better at "taking the package to the destination" (getting in range).
Wizard is functionally equal in "making the delivery" (dealing the damage).

If your sole purpose is dealing damage, go psion. It's flat out the best class at doing it. If, however, you have a single other goal, go wizard. There is no situation where the best choice will be, "go sorceror", unless that situation is, "I can't be bothered to learn the psion build".

[SirFredgar]

If your argument is, "while functionally identical in damage in 99.99999% of situations, sorceror, when faced with encounters that are great enough in number and challenge as to be a clear message that the DM intends your death, then in that one, incredibly miniscule, practically nonexistent niche, that will then simply be followed by 'rocks fall, roll up a new character', the I argue that the sorceror is more capable... and in all other cases, wizard is fully capable of filling this role adequately, whilst retaining superior flexibility and versatility, making for a more effective character filling the position of mailman"...

Well then, you've made my point for me. In virtually all situations, wizard will be able to do the same job in DD, and a superior job in all other areas.

If not, please review the point I just made. Your "niche" is a situation that is akin to, "but a general electric oven has superior aerodynamic qualities when dropped from the back of a cargo plane mid-flight over another brand".

Possibly true, but functionally meaningless.

No, I don't think that the Sorcerer is better only in those situations, but in any situation that calls for more then just one or two targets that need to go down. Both Chasis deliver arbitrary amounts of damage , but the sorcerer can apply that arbitrarily large quanity of damage to more targets, more consistently, CR appropriate or not. 4 spells a turn through GAF ensures that they are not worming out of that damage.

My "niche" is a situation that is akin to "but a general electric oven can cook more food, faster, over another brand."

True, and not meaningless

[Legendairy]

Oooo ooooo, how well would an Artificer accomplish a massive damage "mailman" build? Dual wand wielding blastifer or single staff über meta destroyer type?

[Legendairy]

Well triple post it would seem

[Legendairy]

Stupid laggy phone double posting!!

[SirFredgar]

Oooo ooooo, how well would an Artificer accomplish a massive damage "mailman" build? Dual wand wielding blastifer or single staff über meta destroyer type?

The artificer doesn't really cut it in the action advantage department, but raw damage a Wander would be the ideal delivery vehicle for direct damage. As long as you make sure to pick a spell that doesn't allow for saves or SR (such as a lesser orb spell), the deficiencies of wands are meanigless. Stack metamagic and blast.

The same could be done on a staff, with higher level spells and the same metamagic feats, you just loose out on the ability to double wand, which I usually skip anyways. The artificer is an exercise in getting the most out of each GP, and I find I just don't like burning extra charges on the off hand wand.

Mathmatically speaking, though, I've never really looked at the damage per round difference between double wands vs staffs, as most of the lower level (see: cheaper) spells will get the job done.

The main handicap for an Artificer, though, is applying that metamagic. It takes minutes... or rounds, if you are willing to spend an action point for each feat you apply.

[candycorn]

No, I don't think that the Sorcerer is better only in those situations, but in any situation that calls for more then just one or two targets that need to go down. Both Chasis deliver arbitrary amounts of damage , but the sorcerer can apply that arbitrarily large quanity of damage to more targets, more consistently, CR appropriate or not. 4 spells a turn through GAF ensures that they are not worming out of that damage. The argument is that damage "needs" to be dealt before the enemy can act, else face dire consequences. If the enemies are not CR appropriate, that is not generally true. So that situation is meaningless.

If the enemies don't have evasion, the wizard, through chain, can take a massive number of them. So that situation is meaningless.

Your situation is basically "evasion + CR appropriate + hordes". Which is... let's just say... so unlikely that I don't believe I've ever seen that specific combination, in my years of playing.


My "niche" is a situation that is akin to "but a general electric oven can cook more food, faster, over another brand."Your situation is, "when the recipe calls for humidity control of the food, and in the event that you need to process four different types of dish, to serve 200 or more people, and need it done in one cooking run, this oven is better"...

Which is to say, not what I would consider a "likely scenario".

True, and not meaninglessFor certain definitions of meaningless, I suppose.


Oooo ooooo, how well would an Artificer accomplish a massive damage "mailman" build? Dual wand wielding blastifer or single staff über meta destroyer type?
I'd say wandificer for damage, and staves if you want to use SoL abuse.

[SirFredgar]

The argument is that damage "needs" to be dealt before the enemy can act, else face dire consequences. If the enemies are not CR appropriate, that is not generally true. So that situation is meaningless.

If the enemies don't have evasion, the wizard, through chain, can take a massive number of them. So that situation is meaningless.

Your situation is basically "evasion + CR appropriate + hordes". Which is... let's just say... so unlikely that I don't believe I've ever seen that specific combination, in my years of playing.




When you combine those factors, yes it may seem a little silly, but break it down and I think it's pretty clear.

Action Advantage: Sorcerer
In-Combat Adaptability: Sorcerer
Round by Round Consistency: Sorcerer
Damage: Arbitrary
Out of Combat Adaptability: Wizard.

Yes, the Wizard is still a better batman, but I don't see how he makes a better mailman. In the realm of direct damage the Sorcerer can do everything the Wizard can... and more, over the course of the entire adventuring day. It doesn't matter that the example I used to Justify this is purely theortical, because it is still technically correct, which is "the best kind of correct." - Number 1.0

[candycorn]

When you combine those factors, yes it may seem a little silly, but break it down and I think it's pretty clear.

Action Advantage: Sorcerer
In-Combat Adaptability: Sorcerer
Round by Round Consistency: Sorcerer
Damage: Arbitrary
Out of Combat Adaptability: Wizard.

Yes, the Wizard is still a better batman, but I don't see how he makes a better mailman. In the realm of direct damage the Sorcerer can do everything the Wizard can... and more, over the course of the entire adventuring day. It doesn't matter that the example I used to Justify this is purely theortical, because it is still technically correct, which is "the best kind of correct." - Number 1.0

Action Advantage: Sorcerer
In-Combat Adaptability: Sorcerer
Round by Round Consistency: Sorcerer
Damage: Arbitrary
Out of Combat Adaptability: Wizard.

...? Really?

How about this:

Ability to kill creatures, at any DMG experience granting encounter level: Both -100% accuracy. Tie

Ability to, with proper spell selection, overcome any CR appropriate challenge:
Both -100% accuracy. Tie

Round by round consistency: Both -100% accuracy. Tie

Ability to handle multiple situations outside the damage dealing role: Wizard.

See, you're nitpicking all these individual points, when ultimately, mailman comes down to one fundamental question:

Can it kill the freakin' monster?

For the wizard AND sorceror, within all possible CR+5 or lower encounters where damage is a possible method to overcome the challenge, the answer is: Yes.

Therefore, whether they use 1 action or 30, or 1 spell or 3, they accomplish the same goal, in the same time frame.

You're talking about the cargo capacity of a dump truck vs a pickup truck, when you're only needing to load 100 pounds of firewood. Both are equally good at accomplishing all relevant tasks.

Wizard also has greater ability to handle tasks outside the normal scope of their role. That makes them better.

You can try to break down all these components to measure all you like.

They don't matter.

What does? Can it kill the challenges that are CR appropriate?
Yes.

If looking outside of CR-appropriate challenges, is Sorceror better than wizard, purely at dealing damage?
Yes, provided the challenge is far enough outside of CR (10+)

If looking outside of CR-appropriate challenges at that scale, is sorceror the optimal choice, if the only consideration is multi-target damage?
No. That honor belongs to Psion.

At any point, is Wizard the optimal choice?
Yes, for all expected CR appropriate challenges.

At any point, is Psion the optimal choice?
Yes, for encounters at party level +10 or higher.

At any point, is Sorceror the optimal choice?
No. There is no level, or CR matchup, that puts the sorceror as the most effective option.

When determining the "best" damage dealer, is it likely that a choice that is outperformed at all levels and at all encounter matchups by a different class be the optimal choice?
Not by a long shot.

[DeAnno]

Candycorn, your arguments seem to boil down to thinking that combat should never be difficult enough to be dangerous, so you should maximize your out of combat utility. This ideology is so antithetical to the philosophies I used when putting together the Mailman build & guide that we are really not even talking about the same thing anymore. Everyone knows Wizards can be great at everything and are quite competent as damage dealers in CR appropriate, low OP enemy situations.

The Mailman is paranoid; he grew up in a harsh, deadly, industrialized world where monsters used gear and buffs and had useful class levels added on. Encounters were often not CR appropriate, and enemies varied from homebrewed constructs with Frenzied Berzerker and martial adept levels to denizens of the old CO board like Twice Betrayers of Shar and Epic Counterspell hard lock builds. He was part of what effectively amounted to a hit squad that was thrown into incredibly dangerous situations where the enemies used all the same tricks players do to try to win. He grew up in a world where vanilla Solars and Balors and Monster Manual Great Wyrm Red Dragons were complete jokes for their CR.

If you just want to be good at combat, and good at everything else too, and to just float through one easy fight against idiots and cretins after another, sure, Wizards are great. But when the other side is actually trying to kill you back, Sorcerer is the better choice in a fight.

And about Psions: action economy and DPR they have, accuracy and endurance they do not. Lots of save half, no true strike, no SR crackers means you are boom-or-bust. They look wonderful on paper, but neither have the reliability nor the efficiency of a Sorcerer.

[candycorn]

Candycorn, your arguments seem to boil down to thinking that combat should never be difficult enough to be dangerous, so you should maximize your out of combat utility. This ideology is so antithetical to the philosophies I used when putting together the Mailman build & guide that we are really not even talking about the same thing anymore. Everyone knows Wizards can be great at everything and are quite competent as damage dealers in CR appropriate, low OP enemy situations.I was using CR +8 as the baseline for the damage portion, with energy immunity to the energy I used.

I used CR +7 for multi target.

What was I thinking, using all these pushover, easy peasy combats?

Terribly sorry, I forgot that it's not dangerous until we get to CR +20.

On a serious note: Please stop strawmanning.

The Mailman is paranoid; he grew up in a harsh, deadly, industrialized world where monsters used gear and buffs and had useful class levels added on. Encounters were often not CR appropriate, and enemies varied from homebrewed constructs with Frenzied Berzerker and martial adept levels to denizens of the old CO board like Twice Betrayers of Shar and Epic Counterspell hard lock builds. He was part of what effectively amounted to a hit squad that was thrown into incredibly dangerous situations where the enemies used all the same tricks players do to try to win. He grew up in a world where vanilla Solars and Balors and Monster Manual Great Wyrm Red Dragons were complete jokes for their CR.See above statement.


If you just want to be good at combat, and good at everything else too, and to just float through one easy fight against idiots and cretins after another, sure, Wizards are great. But when the other side is actually trying to kill you back, Sorcerer is the better choice in a fight.Again, see above. I forgot that CR 20's at level 12 is "easy idiots and cretins".


And about Psions: action economy and DPR they have, accuracy and endurance they do not. Lots of save half, no true strike, no SR crackers means you are boom-or-bust. They look wonderful on paper, but neither have the reliability nor the efficiency of a Sorcerer.
Let's assume for a moment, the worst case scenario.

Psion does 40 damage, reflex half, at DC 11. (actual damage and saves will be quite a bit higher)
Now, let's assume the psion can do that 100,000,000 times before you can act. (he can)
Now, what is the reliability of surviving? (nil)

The psion build I reference starts every fight with 4 ready actions to (do any standard action) with (any trigger he chooses). After every damaging power, the psion asks itself, "is every enemy dead?" If the answer is no, the psion takes another turn.

There is nothing more reliable. There is no "all or nothing", because, even if you pass 99.99% of the saves, you will die before you act.

That is the psion build, and Arcane Fusion is a cute parlor trick to that. It's adorable, and they think they saw someone's 6 year old apprentice doing it somewhere once, but it has no place at the table where they wear the big boy pants.

[DeAnno]

100,000,000 times? Truly? He must have several billion power points then. With the 450 or so one would expect at level 20, he can cast maybe 20 damage spells at full burn (probably much less than that with his investment in the time looping) before he is entirely empty for the day. When a Sorc runs out of his 7th, 8th, and 9th level slots, he still has all the rest of them left where his tricks still work pretty well.

Your Psion will burn through all his power points as the enemy laughs through Evasion or Mettle. Even if he wins the encounter, he probably has nothing left afterwards for the next one. It isn't like Sorcs don't have their own infinite loop: Celerity + Greater Arcane Fusion stacked in the proper way will let you loose as many 7th level spells as you have 8th and 9th level spell slots in one round. It's extremely wasteful though, so a Sorcerer will rarely go to such lengths.

[candycorn]

100,000,000 times? Truly? He must have several billion power points then. With the 450 or so one would expect at level 20, he can cast maybe 20 damage spells at full burn (probably much less than that with his investment in the time looping) before he is entirely empty for the day. When a Sorc runs out of his 7th, 8th, and 9th level slots, he still has all the rest of them left where his tricks still work pretty well.Font of Power + Temporal Regression.

How many power points does the psion have?
All of them.

Ponts he must spend for a fully augmented damaging power? 0
Points he must spend to activate the time loop? 0
Points he must spend to Temporal Regression the Font of Power? 0
Amount of actions he can take without losing power points? Whatever he wants


Your Psion will burn through all his power points as the enemy laughs through Evasion or Mettle. Even if he wins the encounter, he probably has nothing left afterwards for the next one.The psion will enter the next fight the same way as the last one. Full PP, and 4 readied actions (2 more for the psicrystal).

It isn't like Sorcs don't have their own infinite loop: Celerity + Greater Arcane Fusion stacked in the proper way will let you loose as many 7th level spells as you have 8th and 9th level spell slots in one round. It's extremely wasteful though, so a Sorcerer will rarely go to such lengths.Except that it's not infinite, just as the Psion's isn't. The Psion gets an arbitrarily large number of actions each round, with the ability to use a ready action to interrupt multiple times per round, and has every buff he wants, active, 24/7, with no need to eat, sleep, or do anything except kill.

I'm sorry that you misunderstood the crux of the psion build I am citing. It doesn't have to pay for its powers. EVER.

[DeAnno]

An infinite loop? You really think that saying it can be beaten by an infinite loop is a good argument? How wizardly of you.

[candycorn]

An infinite loop? You really think that saying it can be beaten by an infinite loop is a good argument? How wizardly of you.

It's not infinite. Inifinite means it never ends. It's arbitrarily large, in that it must eventually end. The psion gets to say when, but eventually, it will end. Contrast the Omnifiscer, who takes infinite damage to start his combo.

It's also the reason that nothing outdamages a psion that is as optimized for damage as Mailman, and nobody who knows how psions work disputes it.

Because honestly, that requires one PrC, a handful of feats, and 4 powers. The sad thing is, it's easy to do. Heck, you could really do it with 2 powers, as long as you don't mind doing it all in 1 round, via taking all the readied actions you could ever want.

Time stop at lower levels, the ability to use 1st level powers to get 4 extra standard actions per round, the ability to use a 5th level power to steal your next turn from the future... That's psion action economy.

The ability to take a minute per day, and make all your powers free... A power that makes that ability last all day. That's psion ability efficiency.

Twin Power and Synchronicity = 2 actions. (use psicrystal's focus, via feat)
Shared with psicrystal = 2 more. (1 used to refocus)
Schism uses it = 2 more (use psicrystal's focus, via feat)
Psicrystal uses other ready action to refocus.

Psicrystal uses move actions to refocus (hidden talent feat makes it psionic, which allows it to recover its own focus), using shared synchronicity to take them.

End result? you get 2 actions, as does schism.

Use 1 power, whatever you like, and repeat the whole thing.

All happens in 1 round, and, when you're ready to stop taking ready actions, you just use one synch to temporal regress, and the other to refresh your ready actions.

[SirFredgar]

Psion does 40 damage, reflex half, at DC 11. (actual damage and saves will be quite a bit higher)
Now, let's assume the psion can do that 100,000,000 times before you can act. (he can)
Now, what is the reliability of surviving? (nil)

The psion build I reference starts every fight with 4 ready actions to (do any standard action) with (any trigger he chooses). After every damaging power, the psion asks itself, "is every enemy dead?" If the answer is no, the psion takes another turn.



lol, I also think this is why Psionics are a no-go in my circle.

[candycorn]

lol, I also think this is why Psionics are a no-go in my circle.

At low and mid op, they're fine. A bit novaish, but fine.

At high op, where incantatrix and Arcane Fusion lie, that's where they get bad.

[Acanous]

I got to play a Psion exactly once. The DM "Rocks fall"'d him at level 7.
I was a sad panda.

[candycorn]

Sounds like a restrictive DM then.

Not always a bad thing, but eh.

[Acanous]

He was fed up with not being able to throw anything at me I couldn't just end in a single turn.
He'd started to try energy immunity, but it wouldn't work, as some psionic powers let you pick an energy type when you use the power.

Also, Autohypnosis. He hated it.

[candycorn]

He was fed up with not being able to throw anything at me I couldn't just end in a single turn.
He'd started to try energy immunity, but it wouldn't work, as some psionic powers let you pick an energy type when you use the power.

Also, Autohypnosis. He hated it.

Golems, or high SR enemies work well, as do stealth enemies.

[Snowbluff]

I'd say the sad thing about psionics is that it is easy to do. I took one look at PSW's power list and ACF, and very quickly came up with how to make him Colossal. I'd ban them too if I had any confidence in my party's OP abilities. :smalltongue: