How did Girard know about the Sapphire Guard? [Archive]

cloudland

2012-03-22, 06:55 AM

As I was going through the archive, I just notice that Girard somehow have the keyword "Sapphire Guard" as one of the possible keyword. This led to the idea that Girard somehow know about the Sapphire Guard, but things don't add up:
1. Girard make his illusion speech talking about how he expects Soon to break the Oath between 12 weeks after break up. Soon went back to his land and found the Sapphire Guard after the break up, and that certainly can't be done in a matter of just weeks. That means somehow the last time Girard get that spot in the desert, he added the keyword in without changing his speech to suit the new time, which is already more or close to 12 weeks since the break up.
2. While Girard know about the sapphire being used to seal the gate, it's a pretty strange thing to guess that Sapphire Guard would be the name.
3. Soon can't have talked to any of the OOTS member about it, because before the break up, it's pretty much thought that the best defence will be used for all 5 gates (or everyone will contribute the defense of other gate) rather than each to their own, and the name sapphire guard won't make much sense since other gate are not sealed by a sapphire.
4. After break up, no communication exist between Soon and the rest, if not for the oath, then for the hostility among them.
5. Most of the Azure city itself doesn't even know the Sapphire Guard exist, so it's not even common knowledge.
6. Girard wouldn't break the oath and scry/visit Azure city to find out about it, considering he pretty much avoid contact with outsider. Beside, that would be a violation of the oath, and since Girard himself think bad of Soon believing Soon would break the oath, Girard certainly is not intending to break it himself.

IdleMuse

2012-03-22, 07:04 AM

5. Most of the Azure city itself doesn't even know the Sapphire Guard exist, so it's not even common knowledge.

Is there a reference for this? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just got the impression overall that The Sapphire Guard were commonly known to exist simply as the order of paladins that guard the citadel. If so, and assuming Soon did found them in the twelve weeks after the party broke contact, Girard could simply have learnt about them from a newspaper (or rumour gossip, whatever). "Famous Adventurer forms new order of Paladins dedicated to Southern Gods." I can see as a headline :smallbiggrin: It wouldn't be a big leap of logic for Girard to guess their true purpose. Though this whole order of events is still pretty tight on time, as Soon would still have had to have founded the order before really beginning construction on Azure City. Though I guess high-level adventurers can get a lot done very quickly.

martianmister

2012-03-22, 07:09 AM

Rich said that in one of the books, if I remember correctly. They know them as Paladins who working for Lord Shojo, but their sacred order is a secret.

Soon went back to his land and found the Sapphire Guard after the break up, and that certainly can't be done in a matter of just weeks.

I think that can be done. There is already paladins in there, it can't be that much difficult to form them into an order within weeks with government's aid.

Also, I think Girard is so much suspicious and chaotic to follow Scribbles's oath. I won't be surprised if he's spying them in the whole time.

Bastian Weaver

2012-03-22, 07:18 AM

Acanous

2012-03-22, 07:29 AM

oh yes he did. He left a hole in Cloister just so he could have some..snogging time.

Shale

2012-03-22, 07:41 AM

Rich said that in one of the books, if I remember correctly. They know them as Paladins who working for Lord Shojo, but their sacred order is a secret.

Quoth Hinjo: "Most people who live here don't even know we exist. (which incidentally, makes it awfully difficult to redeem these Sapphire Guard Discount coupons my uncle keeps giving us.)"

factotum

2012-03-22, 07:50 AM

Euodiachloris

2012-03-22, 07:58 AM

Nilan8888

2012-03-22, 08:09 AM

Agreed... er, I think...

Girard probably kept tabs on Soon just to make sure he wouldn't come after HIS gate. Maybe it wasn't so in-depth, but it wouldn't have been all that difficult for a epic-level illusionist to spy on Soon to the degree they would have found out about the Sapphire Guard.

The Sapphire Guard might not be known to most people in the city, but that's probably because those people are like... most people. They got their own thing going on and don't pay attention to the politics.

Miko mentions the Sapphire Guard toward the end of her first introduction to the comic, and declares it's existence to people she thinks, at that moment (and again, later), are criminals. And although she thinks she's about to kill Roy, it's not given that she's about to kill everyone within earshot if they lay down their arms.

So yeah, it's kinda a secret... but I don't think the Paladins work all THAT hard to keep it from people that are paying attention. It's more like something they usually don't talk about in front of strangers and stuff.

Euodiachloris

2012-03-22, 08:27 AM

So yeah, it's kinda a secret... but I don't think the Paladins work all THAT hard to keep it from people that are paying attention. It's more like something they usually don't talk about in front of strangers and stuff.

They also probably wouldn't have to try all that hard to keep the main point secret. All they need to do is chase down villains and things (just being your standard, neighbourhood Paladin brigade) and people would just take them for exactly that: a posh, well-armed police-force with mystic benefits.

If they ever bother to think if there's anything else, well... Paladin Orders always have some form of mumbo-jumbo mystic thing along with the armour, the swords and the custom-made sticks. It's no biggie. :smallwink:

Grey Watcher

2012-03-22, 08:42 AM

...

6. Girard wouldn't break the oath and scry/visit Azure city to find out about it, considering he pretty much avoid contact with outsider. Beside, that would be a violation of the oath, and since Girard himself think bad of Soon believing Soon would break the oath, Girard certainly is not intending to break it himself.

On this last point, I disagree. Girard seems like he could talk himself into breaking the Oath preemptively because he's so firmly convinced that no one else (especially Soon) is going to uphold their end of the bargain, and therefore he might as well be prepared for the "inevitable" betrayal.

If I remember correctly, Soon did not build the Azure City. ...

Yes, my understanding is that Azure City existed before the Order of the Scribble's adventures. It's just the huge honkin' castle in the middle wasn't there until the Scribblenauts split up.

... And it seems that Soon was the only one that didn't break the oath. Lirian and Dorukan... hmm... well, you know. And didn't Girard contact Serini somehow?

Can someone explain to me where this idea comes from? Yes, Serini apparently had the correct coordinates, but she could just as easily have had them from before the Schism of the Scribble. What other evidence (if any) is there to suggest that Serini and Girard have had ANY contact with each other since making the Oath?

Tyrrell

2012-03-22, 08:43 AM

All of the scribblers had their plans for how to defend the gates. Argument about which way was best was the subject, if not the motivation, of the disagreements that broke up the scribble. Girard knew that soon was going to form a sapphire guard before the the order of the scribble broke up.

Onyavar

2012-03-22, 08:46 AM

As I took the backstory, Soon was already a paladin when Miyun was killed. He also was a powerful and reknowned man (since the ruler of Azure City has been the commander of the Sapphire Guard as long as anyone knows).

So, my conclusion is: Azure City wasn't THAT big as it was later, of course. Soon was either the ruler of the City already, or a famous, powerful hero from the area. Even before splitting up, he formed the Sapphire Guard (possibly out of his existing order) to protect the Sapphire for a short while - while he was himself out in the north, where Kraagor fell. Returning back, he reenforced his order, but Girard of course knew the name of Soons order.

Also, the Sapphire Guard itself was not exactly a state secret later. They were simply not a famous league of heroes either. In my city, many people also don't know the name of my favorite night club - that's pretty much insider knowledge, but still not a secret.

Gorm_the_DBA

2012-03-22, 08:59 AM

Recipe for snooping:-

1) Take some well aged paranoia you made earlier and stir with the chip on your shoulder. Fold in your customary guile, being careful not to deflate the mix.

2) Dust off that top-quality scrying glass you have probably had all this time for for just such occurrences (what with being a tracker) at the first opportunity. Warm it up to the correct temperature to get your blood boiling by keeping glued to it as you travel in a coach.

3) As you watch the man you hate more than anybody else in the world, make notes as your paranoia mix rises nicely. Put the mix into a baking tin at about the point he makes moves to put his plans to paper.

4) Pop tin on frying scrying glass as the anti-scry measures start to kick in and bake until golden. Or, once you get under the dessert sun.

Serve with a bile garnish in a rounded, recorded message.

I'd guess it went something like that. :smallsmile:

You forgot the nutmeg...everything's better with nutmeg...

Seriously, though, I suspect the answer is that the conversation just before the breakup went something like this:

"I know how we should defend the gates, we should have an Order of Paladins of unimpeachable Honor, we'll call it the Sapphire Guard, since we've used these Sapphires to seal the gates. They will defend it"

"Your 'Honor' didn't save Kraggor, what makes you think it will save the gates?"

(and deteriorate from there)

So Girard would know based on any argument anything like this.

MReav

2012-03-22, 09:10 AM

"I know how we should defend the gates, we should have an Order of Paladins of unimpeachable Honor, we'll call it the Sapphire Guard, since we've used these Sapphires to seal the gates. They will defend it"

Only the Azure City Gate was small enough to be contained in the Sapphire. But it's not illogical that they told each other some of the details of their plans before they broke up.

"I'm going to enlist the aid of nature to protect my Gate"

"I'm going to hide my Gate behind a bunch of illusions."

"I'm going to make the most powerful wards I can think of."

"I'm going to build my Gate in Kraagor's name and fill it with the nastiest monsters I can find."

"I'm going to found an order of Paladins and call it the 'Sapphire Guard' and have them protect my Gate."

"Real creative name Soon."

Alternatively: "Soon, you're going to die pretty soon, how do you plan on protecting your Gate after you're dead?"

"I plan on founding an order of Paladins. I will call them the Sapphire Guard, named after the Gate they will be protecting."

"Real creative name Soon."

Bastian Weaver

2012-03-22, 10:07 AM

Can someone explain to me where this idea comes from? Yes, Serini apparently had the correct coordinates, but she could just as easily have had them from before the Schism of the Scribble. What other evidence (if any) is there to suggest that Serini and Girard have had ANY contact with each other since making the Oath?

Maybe they have, maybe they haven't. They were definitely going to have some kind of contact, though, because - aha! - Girard made a bet about Soon breaking the oath within 12 weeks, and hoped to win 10 000 gp. I suppose paying up would require contact, right?

Grey Watcher

2012-03-22, 10:16 AM

Maybe they have, maybe they haven't. They were definitely going to have some kind of contact, though, because - aha! - Girard made a bet about Soon breaking the oath within 12 weeks, and hoped to win 10 000 gp. I suppose paying up would require contact, right?

... With his fellow Clan members, right? (Assuming the family tree means he roped his cousins into helping him.) At any rate, not necessarily with Serini....

Bastian Weaver

2012-03-22, 10:29 AM

Hmm. Possibly. But then again, why would his spell alert Serini about someone, presumably Soon Kim or the Sapphire Guard, arriving at the false coordinates?

FujinAkari

2012-03-22, 11:28 AM

Girard knew about the Sapphire Guard because all the Scribblers discussed their plans on how to protect the gates. That is what led to the harsh disagreements and the splitting of the gates in the first place.

Grey Watcher

2012-03-22, 11:56 AM

Hmm. Possibly. But then again, why would his spell alert Serini about someone, presumably Soon Kim or the Sapphire Guard, arriving at the false coordinates?

It is odd that he specifically says Serini and not something like "the rest of our former allies". The latter might mean that his warning spell is set up to warn EVERYBODY of Soon overstepping his bounds, but Serini specifically? Maybe, as a fellow member of the sneaky side of the street, he trusted her more than the others...? Maybe he knew that she was still traveling, and more likely to come to his aid than Dorukan or Lirian, holed up in their strongholds?

denthor

2012-03-22, 12:02 PM

Quote:
... And it seems that Soon was the only one that didn't break the oath. Lirian and Dorukan... hmm... well, you know. And didn't Girard contact Serini somehow?

[
QUOTE]Quote the grey watcher
Can someone explain to me where this idea comes from? Yes, Serini apparently had the correct coordinates, but she could just as easily have had them from before the Schism of the Scribble. What other evidence (if any) is there to suggest that Serini and Girard have had ANY contact with each other since making the Oath?

The fact that Serini is contacted when the illision was tripped suggests that they had contact at a later time. Futhermore it is also assumed(yes I know the three words that make up that word). She was one of the participants of the bet. If she was right there would have to be contact again in person to collect the money.

DrBurr

2012-03-22, 12:18 PM

If I remember correctly, Soon did not build the Azure City.
And it seems that Soon was the only one that didn't break the oath. Lirian and Dorukan... hmm... well, you know. And didn't Girard contact Serini somehow?

Well actually this doesn't prove Girard broke the oath at all, he gave Serini coordinates just like he did Soon, so unless Soon broke his oath when he asked for the gates location Girard and Serini didn't actually break the oath, or at least we have no real evidence they have in the comic.

As for Girard's knowledge of the Sapphire Guard, Everyone explained their plans on how to protect the gates before they officially split up. Their explanations actually lead to the argument in scribbles of time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html), remember Soon telling Dorukan his magic could be dispelled, and then Girard comments on Soon's plan.

Dr.Epic

2012-03-22, 12:45 PM

I'm pretty sure everyone mentioned how they would protect their own Gate. Shojo knew how they were all guarded. I'm sure Soon mention he'd form his own legion of paladins to protect his Gate and I'm sure he had to at some point mention the name to the other members of the Order of the Scribble. Makes sense in case one of the Gates were destroyed and they went to check on the others.

SoC175

2012-03-22, 03:58 PM

6. Girard wouldn't break the oath [...] Beside, that would be a violation of the oath, and since Girard himself think bad of Soon believing Soon would break the oath, Girard certainly is not intending to break it himself.I very much think he would break it. Since he never "made a show" of being a honorable lawful guy that's no issue.

Neither is anybody else breaking the oath (which I suspect they only made to keep Soon away at least for some time)

cloudland

2012-03-22, 04:40 PM

I think I need to repeat one of the point worth repeating, on why the name Sapphire Guard can't have been discussed while they're together:
Previous to the break up, it was pretty much thought that who have the best defense will protect all the gate, or at least, everyone contribute their defense to every gate. Back at that time, the name Sapphire Guard make no sense since only 1 gate is sealed with a sapphire, the originally planned name might have been Gate Guard or Universe Guard or something.

And it's pretty hard to get yourself a Sapphire Guard up if the lore were to be kept secret, and there is a huge active noble class in Azure city who try to have power for themselves. So getting one in a few weeks is pretty much impossible.

Girard have been chiding on Soon that Soon would break the oath for the greater good. But if Girard break the oath to spy on Soon wouldn't that be the same thing? He might be Chaotic but certainly he wouldn't violate his own moral code.

factotum

2012-03-22, 04:51 PM

Girard have been chiding on Soon that Soon would break the oath for the greater good. But if Girard break the oath to spy on Soon wouldn't that be the same thing? He might be Chaotic but certainly he wouldn't violate his own moral code.

Girard's antipathy toward Soon was based on the belief that he was a control freak who would try to take control of all the gates himself, and that ran totally counter to Girard's own beliefs. He didn't hate Soon because he thought he was an oath-breaker, and there's no evidence he would have cared tuppence about the "breaking the oath" part in any case.

Gift Jeraff

2012-03-22, 05:07 PM

Girard have been chiding on Soon that Soon would break the oath for the greater good. But if Girard break the oath to spy on Soon wouldn't that be the same thing? He might be Chaotic but certainly he wouldn't violate his own moral code.Girard would be chiding Soon for being a hypocrite, not for breaking an oath. Girard (presumably) never put any value on honoring his word or claimed to do so, so it means nothing if he breaks an oath. But if Soon claims to me a man of truth and honor, then it is a big deal if he contradicts that.

Gurgeh

2012-03-22, 08:37 PM

He also was a powerful and reknowned man (since the ruler of Azure City has been the commander of the Sapphire Guard as long as anyone knows).
Point of order: that's actually not true. We see here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) that Shojo's father was already ruling the city at the time Soon transferred leadership of the Sapphire Guard to him.

zimmerwald1915

2012-03-22, 08:42 PM

Remember *why* they're called the Sapphire Guard. It's because the Gate they're guarding is "locked" by the sapphire built into the throne. That means the sapphire is part of the Gate, which means it must have been created (or enchanted) by Dorukan and Lirian when they built it. The OotScribble was still together at that point--they had to be, in order to get the gates constructed! Therefore it's entirely reasonable that Girard would know about it.
No it wasn't. The Sapphire isn't part of the Gate, nor does it seal the gate. The seal is a flat, glasslike, iridescent pane that sits over the rift. The Gate is the brown, craggy construction around the seal that links the seal to the rest of reality, as seen more vividly, because the rifts and their corresponding seals were larger, on Lirian's and Dorukan's Gates. The Sapphire, like Dorukan's sigils, Lirian's treants, and Girard's illusions, was added long after the rift was sealed and the Gate was built.

factotum

2012-03-23, 02:23 AM

No it wasn't. The Sapphire isn't part of the Gate, nor does it seal the gate.

The Giant himself says different:

The gem reinforces the Gate; the gem is NOT the Gate, and the Gate is not the seal, and the seal is not the rift. The gem is the deadbolt, not the lock, or the door, or the doorway. The "door" is a complex spell that is not actually visible but is what Dorukan and Lirian are casting in the first panel of the second page of #276. The "lock" is the Gate, a tiny magical object that later had a throne crafted around it; it's about the size of a raisin in the case of Azure City. The "doorway" is the rift itself, and it is not really inside the gemstone, it's just that the gem (and Gate) are translucent and we can see through it (because it's a visual medium and it made it easier to understand). The gemstone is an enchanted object that further seals and reinforces the Gate; thus, the "deadbolt."

zimmerwald1915

2012-03-23, 05:53 AM

The Giant himself says different:

The gem reinforces the Gate; the gem is NOT the Gate, and the Gate is not the seal, and the seal is not the rift. The gem is the deadbolt, not the lock, or the door, or the doorway. The "door" is a complex spell that is not actually visible but is what Dorukan and Lirian are casting in the first panel of the second page of #276. The "lock" is the Gate, a tiny magical object that later had a throne crafted around it; it's about the size of a raisin in the case of Azure City. The "doorway" is the rift itself, and it is not really inside the gemstone, it's just that the gem (and Gate) are translucent and we can see through it (because it's a visual medium and it made it easier to understand). The gemstone is an enchanted object that further seals and reinforces the Gate; thus, the "deadbolt."
I fail to see where the Giant and I disagree. The gem does not seal the Gate, nor is it the Gate itself. It is an extra layer of defense that's nice to have, like a sigil or a pair of treants or a set of mighty illusions, but isn't integral to the Gate's function.

factotum

2012-03-23, 07:49 AM

zimmerwald1915

2012-03-23, 08:05 AM

Well, where do you and I disagree, then? I put "locked" in quotes in my original post because I couldn't remember the exact function the sapphire had, but I knew it was certainly important--whereas you seem to be implying it's an irrelevance, which the quote above directly contradicts. Since the sapphire must be linked to Gate somehow to act as a deadbolt, Dorukan and Lirian must have created it, which is the whole point I was making; the OotScribble must have had contact with each other at least up to the point the Sapphire was created, and therefore it's entirely within reason to assume that Girard knew about it and knew what Soon was going to call his order of paladins.
Except the Sapphire wasn't linked to the Gate. It sat over the Gate, and was only put in place several years after - according to the Secret Lore of the Sapphire Guard - the OOtScribble split up. The Sapphire was part of the defense of the Gate, but the Gate could and did function without it in place. Its existence bound the Ghost Martyrs to the throne room and bound the living paladins to their oath of non-interference. It may also have prevented scrying into the throne room and exuded an aura of consecration, both problems that Team Evil had to work around.

Gurgeh

2012-03-23, 08:42 PM

You do realise that the comic contradicts your assertion, right? It says right here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0411.html) that the "Dorukan and Lirian were capable of using a single gemstone to seal it". Hinjo even makes a point of saying that the name "Sapphire Guard" wasn't a coincidence.

Long story short: all of the members of the OOTScribble would have known about the sapphire. Whether or not they could then have reasonably deduced that the "sapphire guard" was anything to do with Soon is anyone's guess.