3.5 Gestalt Questions

[beth]

Ok I know there is another thread that discusses the Gestalt options and would like an opinion or three on this option.
All books are available. All races/templates are available. all class's are available. But must start level 1.
So here goes with what I have so far for an idea. this character with stuff is setup to be a melee combatant 1st, party healer 2nd.

Race: Goliath / Half-Ogre with the Half-dragon template.
Class: Favored Soul / Fighter
base stats: str 16, dex 18, con 12, int 16, wis 14, cha 16
total stats: str 36, dex 18, con 18, int 18, wis 18, cha 18
as it sits its Level 1 with an ECL 6 from racial level adjust.

Now unearthed arcana pg 72.
get larger hd - fighter d10 default to D12 from dragon
bab ; better progression - +1 from fighter
base saves; better progression - +2 from favored soul
class skills; both are 2+int mod. x4
class features; gain from both
class feats; - nothing in there saying, that it must be from the best progression, and therefore asumed to be from both.

[Hiro Protagonest]

...How the hell are you getting the Level Adjustment for free? Because if you have +1 LA or higher races on both sides, you can't start at 1st level. And isn't half-ogre a race, not a template? Yeah, you can't have two races.

[Pilo]

That's wrong. Half-dragon template only increase racial HD not HD from classes.

Furthermore half-minotaur template would be better than half-ogre.

[JoeYounger]

{{scrubbed}}

[MesiDoomstalker]

We need clarifiction. When you say, "start at level 1" does it mean ECL 1? or 1 class level? If it's ECL 1 you already admitted to not meeting that requirment (unless your using Savage Species progression).

And your HD is a d10. Fighter gives a d10, Favoured Soul a d8 (?) and templates don't change your HD unless you become undead (and maybe a few others I don't remember).

Class features you get both unless both classes get the same thing, at which point you get the one that happens first. Its mostly for Evasion and Mettle and other abilities that multiple classes get access too. You'll get everything from Favoured Soul and your Fighter bonus feats just fine.

And we also need clarification on your Race/template stacking and how your handling that.

[Squidfist]

I'm pretty sure the half dragon template is 6 levels. +4 LA and 2 monster HD.

Besides from all that (other people seem to have it covered) my suggestion would be to never play a favored soul ever. They are so bad it makes my brain hurt. Compared to a cleric, you're giving up domains, turn undead attempts (which can be used for a bunch of fun stuff), heavy armor, spells per day / versatile spell list, and gaining a big pile of nothing good.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I'm pretty sure the half dragon template is 6 levels. +4 LA and 2 monster HD.


No it isn't. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm) Its +3 LA.

[Socratov]

indeed, LA counts for both sides, only racial HD can be taken on one side of the gestalt. So if you do, use the savage species progression, if in the case of 1, you can indeed take the other side fo the gestalt a class like fighter, or whatever.

On the subject of classes, take no more then 2 or 3 levels of fighter, otherwise take warblade since it is better in any way.

[beth]

Correct DM stated must be class level 1, even though the level adjustment is +6 for a total of ECL 7

DMG Pg. 172
Add a monster’s level adjustment to its Hit Dice and class levels to get the creature’s effective character level, or ECL.

MM 1 Pg. 146
“Half-dragon” is an inherited template that can be added to any
living, corporeal creature
Level adjustment 3
Str +8, Con +2, Int +2, Cha +2

races of destiny pg. 97
Half-Ogre Racial Traits
Level adjustment +2
+6 Strength, –2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, –2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma

races of stone pg. 56
Goliath Racial Traits
+4 Strength, –2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution

So unless I am totally off, I use the rules in DMG Pg. 173-174
Creating New Races: - something that I should have stated earlier was the DM was allowing for.
I use the information from both the ogre and the goliath for the race and add the template to that.

without magical stuff leaves racial stats like thus before adding in the 4d6 drop lowest meathod, rolls for stats.
+18 str, -4 dex, +6 con, int +0, wis +0, cha +0

[gkathellar]

indeed, LA counts for both sides, only racial HD can be taken on one side of the gestalt.

That remains a debated point with no clear answer. Some people believe LA counts for both sides, but it ultimately depends on the individual DM, as gestalt never clearly addresses the question of LA.

EDIT: Also, Beth, that's not really how creating races or LA or using templates really works. I suggest that you just try the War Hulk class, which gives huge strength boosts and is fantastic in gestalt.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Besides from all that (other people seem to have it covered) my suggestion would be to never play a favored soul ever. They are so bad it makes my brain hurt. Compared to a cleric, you're giving up domains, turn undead attempts (which can be used for a bunch of fun stuff), heavy armor, spells per day / versatile spell list, and gaining a big pile of nothing good.
I've pointed out your fallacy in the fluff/crunch disconnects thread. Everything except the most powerful things in the game is unfavorable when compared to wizard, cleric, or druid. Or any other tier 1 class.

Correct DM stated must be class level 1, even though the level adjustment is +6 for a total of ECL 7

DMG Pg. 172
Add a monster’s level adjustment to its Hit Dice and class levels to get the creature’s effective character level, or ECL.

...So he explicitly allowed you to pile on all the LA you want? Either you're misinterpreting, or nothing good can come of this.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Use a variant Half-Fiend (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) based on a Goristro (FC1), which would grant the following differences from the standard Half-Fiend:

Size increase (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases) if base creature is Large or smaller.
No wings.
+5 natural armor.
2 Slam attacks (which could be considered two-handed weapons if that would carry over from the Goristro).
Replace some of the default spell-like abilities with See Invisibility, Levitate, Spider Climb, and Fear. They should each replace a spell of comparable spell level and combat usefulness.
DR is X/Cold Iron or Good instead of X/Magic.
Ability score adjustments would be Str +8, Con +8.
Note that the skill changes for becoming an Outsider will only apply to racial hit dice, it does not modify your skills gained for class levels.
Level Adjustment is still +4.


Apply it to a Half-Ogre for the following:
+6 LA
Huge Outsider (Augmented Giant)
+22 Str, -4 Dex, +14 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha
+12 Natural Armor
Land speed 30 ft.
Half-Fiend traits

Go Fighter 20 on one side. Use the Dungeoncrasher ACF from Dungeonscape, the Zhentarim Soldier (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) substitution levels (renamed Big-Bad-Bully with no association to a particular organization), and the free Physical Prowess (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a) bonuses.

Along side of Fighter you should get War Hulk 10, from the Miniatures Handbook, as soon as you qualify for it. If you can take your +6 LA along side of your first six Fighter levels then do that, otherwise pick up a few levels of whatever you want. Get Power Attack and Improved Bull Rush to take Knock-Back from Races of Stone, which is extremely good with Dungeoncrasher.

Your two-handed slam attacks will probably be better than any weapon you find for quite a while. Maybe include Half-Dragon as well, you'll be an Outsider (Augmented Giant, Augmented Dragon) and be able to get Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike from the Draconomicon.

[Rejusu]

I've pointed out your fallacy in the fluff/crunch disconnects thread. Everything except the most powerful things in the game is unfavorable when compared to wizard, cleric, or druid. Or any other tier 1 class.

Yeah it's kind of ridiculous, Favoured Soul is tier 2 which means it's by no means a bad class. There are plenty of unfavourable classes in the game which aren't good simply because they lack versatility, aren't particularly good at what they do, or don't work as intended. But Favoured Soul isn't one of them.


...So he explicitly allowed you to pile on all the LA you want? Either you're misinterpreting, or nothing good can come of this.

Either the DM is trying to make this a high powered game (and the use of gestalt would point towards this) and is letting the whole party do this free of EXP penalty or Beth is severely going to regret this when she finds out she needs 28,000 XP just to reach class level 2.

[Squidfist]

I've pointed out your fallacy in the fluff/crunch disconnects thread. Everything except the most powerful things in the game is unfavorable when compared to wizard, cleric, or druid. Or any other tier 1 class.


...So he explicitly allowed you to pile on all the LA you want? Either you're misinterpreting, or nothing good can come of this.

You did point that out, and I still disagree with wholeheartedly. The only redeeming qualities of FS is your ability to access prestige classes for certain builds, in which case you're using FS to minimax, and your argument is invalid.

Serious, access to 1 domain, or a bonus feat in the first 4 levels would make it a playable class. Maybe a very limited pool of TU attempts. But as it stands, it's just SOOOOO BLAND AND BORING.

But whatever, you can play FS all you want... I'll continue to facepalm at WotC's inability to balance things.

You might say "don't compare things with cleric or druid" where as I say "Why did you make this terrible class, when you clearly set the bar with the PHB?"

[Hiro Protagonest]

You did point that out, and I still disagree with wholeheartedly. The only redeeming qualities of FS is your ability to access prestige classes for certain builds, in which case you're using FS to minimax, and your argument is invalid.

Serious, access to 1 domain, or a bonus feat in the first 4 levels would make it a playable class. Maybe a very limited pool of TU attempts. But as it stands, it's just SOOOOO BLAND AND BORING.

But whatever, you can play FS all you want... I'll continue to facepalm at WotC's inability to balance things.

You might say "don't compare things with cleric or druid" where as I say "Why did you make this terrible class, when you clearly set the bar with the PHB?"

Are you kidding? The PHB is the most unbalanced book in 3.5. I suppose all mundanes should be super weak guys pretending they have powers after the wizard had to buff them to make them competent?

[lord pringle]

The only redeeming qualities of FS is your ability to access prestige classes for certain builds, in which case you're using FS to minimax, and your argument is invalid.

Since I have to teach anyone I want to play with me, sorcerer and favored soul are a god send. I find that spontaneous casters are easier for new players to use and get a lot less, "if my guy is so smart why does he keep forgetting spells?" And to them, being a guy with the blood of something powerful sounds so much cooler than being a studious wizard.

[Gnaeus]

Besides from all that (other people seem to have it covered) my suggestion would be to never play a favored soul ever. They are so bad it makes my brain hurt. Compared to a cleric, you're giving up domains, turn undead attempts (which can be used for a bunch of fun stuff), heavy armor, spells per day / versatile spell list, and gaining a big pile of nothing good.

In this case, you are giving up domains and TU, and higher level spells at odd levels. You do not lose heavy armor (gestalt)

You are gaining good reflex progression. 2 free feats (which do, indeed suck, but can be used as prereqs for classes or other feats. Make SURE your god has a good favored weapon!). Energy resistance x3. Wings as a class feature (in case you are ever polymorphed, for example).

Yes, cleric is better. But given his desire to be a melee combatant, not a utility caster, favored soul is pretty decent. It has lots of passive bonuses, which is good for the inactive side of a gestalt.

[Squidfist]

Are you kidding? The PHB is the most unbalanced book in 3.5. I suppose all mundanes should be super weak guys pretending they have powers after the wizard had to buff them to make them competent?

I guess that's where we disagree. I think the PHB is the most important book, and since a lot of casual players rock out pretty much exclusively the core books, other things should be in line with the power curve established. If you look at all of D&D 3.5, yes the average power of the classes in the PHB are way up there- I look at this as a flaw in designing new classes, not the core of 3.5 being broken.

And I don't get what point you're trying to make with the second part of your post.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I guess that's where we disagree. I think the PHB is the most important book, and since a lot of casual players rock out pretty much exclusively the core books, other things should be in line with the power curve established. If you look at all of D&D 3.5, yes the average power of the classes in the PHB are way up there- I look at this as a flaw in designing new classes, not the core of 3.5 being broken.

And I don't get what point you're trying to make with the second part of your post.

Um... you do know vanilla monk and fighter are two of the weakest classes in the game, right? Sure, non-core feats and ACFs can bring them up a bit, but the only one who's weaker is the CW samurai? Core-only is broken, and even a spiked chain tripper with Power Attack needs buffs from the casters to be able to take on opponents of his level. Dragonne? Needs a Fly spell or will be plinking arrows for minor damage. Manticore? Dragon? Beholder? Enemy caster? Nightmare? Most evil outsiders?

Core is not a benchmark. Or, if it is, it is one that should be ignored. It has the the second strongest and the second weakest classes in the game. The only ones that beat them in those regards are the erudite, but only with the online Spell to Power ACF. CW warrior is the weakest without heavy intimidate op, and it doesn't do as good as a zhentarim soldier.

[Rejusu]

Yeah the PHB is a terrible benchmark, it's a mix of the most broken and the most weak. Though it probably averages out as the most balanced in a weird way. Somehow though I don't think taking the average of two sets of extremes is a valid measurement though.

Personally I think XPH is one of the most balanced books if you ignore the horrendously underpowered soulknife.

[Squidfist]

Um... you do know vanilla monk and fighter are two of the weakest classes in the game, right? Sure, non-core feats and ACFs can bring them up a bit, but the only one who's weaker is the CW samurai? Core-only is broken, and even a spiked chain tripper with Power Attack needs buffs from the casters to be able to take on opponents of his level. Dragonne? Needs a Fly spell or will be plinking arrows for minor damage. Manticore? Dragon? Beholder? Enemy caster? Nightmare? Most evil outsiders?

Core is not a benchmark. Or, if it is, it is one that should be ignored. It has the the second strongest and the second weakest classes in the game. The only ones that beat them in those regards are the erudite, but only with the online Spell to Power ACF. CW warrior is the weakest without heavy intimidate op, and it doesn't do as good as a zhentarim soldier.

Monks and fighters both do what they do better than any other class. If you need access to feats with a full BaB progression to hit your prestige class, what else would you choose other than fighter?

If you want to play an unarmored martial artist, what other class would you pick besides monk? I often play monks, and don't really feel underpowered, because what I lack in combat I make up with 0 ACP, Great saves, and moderate skills. Also, monks play a very specific role in a party, being monastic / nomadic and highly disciplined.

If you want energy resistance, yes, choose FS, they probably do that best. But by this logic, you could slap ER onto a crappy NPC class and you'd probably STILL choose it, if you value that one ability at everything you're loosing as a cleric. Like for gestalt purposes.

But anyways, I don't want to drag this out, or for it to get heated. I'll admit there are balance issues in PHB, but I think the core is still the best benchmark for 3.5. How else would you decide on a good average? When you take into account all of 3.5, builds can get RETARDED, and by sheer volume of options alone, it would be hard to decide what a standard would be.

[Gnaeus]

Monks and fighters both do what they do better than any other class. If you need access to feats with a full BaB progression to hit your prestige class, what else would you choose other than fighter?

That isn't actually a reason to play a fighter, except as it is advancing towards some other unamed PRC (and even then I would try to get there with Psi warrior or Warblade). Sure, there are times when it is helpful to take 1 or 2 levels of fighter (or monk!) to get to some other goal. But that isn't "playing a fighter", it is using the first 2 levels of a frontloaded class to play something else.



If you want to play an unarmored martial artist, what other class would you pick besides monk?


Psi Warrior, Unarmed Swordsage, Fighter. Maybe totemist. Anything in tier 1, with the right spell selection.


Also, monks play a very specific role in a party, being monastic / nomadic and highly disciplined.

That is not a role in a party. That is a personality trait. A PC of any class could be monastic / nomadic and highly disciplined. Even a bard or barbarian.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Monks and fighters both do what they do better than any other class. If you need access to feats with a full BaB progression to hit your prestige class, what else would you choose other than fighter?

If you want to play an unarmored martial artist, what other class would you pick besides monk? I often play monks, and don't really feel underpowered, because what I lack in combat I make up with 0 ACP, Great saves, and moderate skills. Also, monks play a very specific role in a party, being monastic / nomadic and highly disciplined.

Um... okay? Full BAB classes with access to feats and better than fighter...
Warblade
Barbarian with ACF that grants a feat or two
Warblade, barbarian, or crusader with two levels of fighter mixed in
OA samurai

Unarmored martial artists that are better than monk...
Unarmed Swordsage
Swordsage
Psychic Warrior
Warblade
Crusader
Totemist
Totemist/warblade *points at avatar*
Cleric
Druid
Any of the above with two levels of monk mixed in
Monk/caster/X Fist, basically the gish version of the monk

Might be some I missed.

[Squidfist]

That isn't actually a reason to play a fighter, except as it is advancing towards some other unamed PRC (and even then I would try to get there with Psi warrior or Warblade). Sure, there are times when it is helpful to take 1 or 2 levels of fighter (or monk!) to get to some other goal. But that isn't "playing a fighter", it is using the first 2 levels of a frontloaded class to play something else.



Psi Warrior, Unarmed Swordsage, Fighter. Maybe totemist. Anything in tier 1, with the right spell selection.



That is not a role in a party. That is a personality trait. A PC of any class could be monastic / nomadic and highly disciplined. Even a bard or barbarian.

Not if I was the DM... a monastic Bardbarian? Noap.

And it is too a role. "personality trait" and "role" aren't mutually exclusive, although you are right it's not specific to monk. Just a reason why I personally like to monk, more than anything I suppose.

[Squidfist]

Um... okay? Full BAB classes with access to feats and better than fighter...
Warblade
Barbarian with ACF that grants a feat or two
Warblade, barbarian, or crusader with two levels of fighter mixed in
OA samurai

Unarmored martial artists that are better than monk...
Unarmed Swordsage
Swordsage
Psychic Warrior
Warblade
Crusader
Totemist
Totemist/warblade *points at avatar*
Cleric
Druid
Any of the above with two levels of monk mixed in
Monk/caster/X Fist, basically the gish version of the monk

Might be some I missed.See, you still need the two levels of monk though, because it offers UNIQUE ABILITIES, like WIZ to AC, imp unarmed @ 1st, + FoB. You shouldn't skip monk if you want to be the most effective martial-combatant you can be. This to me, makes monk a worthwhile class. That goes slightly beyond choosing FS because you simply need ER. (I'd consider that at least a little power-gamey)

I'm not actually familiar with Warblade, what book is that from? (we have house-ruled out TOB from our 3.5, so I'm not familiar with pretty much everything in there)

[Gnaeus]

Not if I was the DM... a monastic Bardbarian? Noap.

Bard is really easy. He comes from a secluded music school where he does nothing but study the intricate workings of gregorian chants, or how the vibrations from the singing bowl reflect the harmony of the universe.

Barbarian is harder, yes. Lets see... A half-orc orphan, maybe a child of violence, raised by peaceful monks. He longs for the serenity of his mentors, but he has within him a powerful and uncontrollable rage which sometimes erupts in times of violence. After one such episode, he was cast out of the order, but he still carries himself as a monk and tries to live up to their ideals, while fighting with his own baser nature.

Barbarian is a class. It can be role-played any way you want.


And it is too a role. "personality trait" and "role" aren't mutually exclusive, although you are right it's not specific to monk. Just a reason why I personally like to monk, more than anything I suppose.

A role in a party has to do with something someone brings to the table. Damage Dealer, Healer, Utility Caster are roles. They describe what someone does, and while none is strictly necessary, many parties want to have them covered.

I have never been sitting in a group during character creation and had someone go..."Hey, this party won't work! We don't have anyone who is Monastic and highly disciplined! We will all die!!!"


See, you still need the two levels of monk though, because it offers UNIQUE ABILITIES, like WIZ to AC, imp unarmed @ 1st, + FoB. You shouldn't skip monk if you want to be the most effective martial-combatant you can be.

Unarmed swordsage gets wis to AC and imp unarmed. He doesn't get FOB, but he does get maneuvers that are better than FoB.

Most of those other guys can surround themselves with magical defenses and enchant their fists for better AC than the monk's wisdom bonus and better attacks. Some of them (like Psi Warrior and Warblade) can take imp unarmed as a bonus feat if they want. The rest of them just take it as a regular feat and then buff themselves until it works.



I'm not actually familiar with Warblade, what book is that from? (we have house-ruled out TOB from our 3.5, so I'm not familiar with pretty much everything in there) ToB, as is Swordsage. And thats the problem right there.

[Squidfist]

Bard is really easy. He comes from a secluded music school where he does nothing but study the intricate workings of gregorian chants, or how the vibrations from the singing bowl reflect the harmony of the universe.

Barbarian is harder, yes. Lets see... A half-orc orphan, maybe a child of violence, raised by peaceful monks. He longs for the serenity of his mentors, but he has within him a powerful and uncontrollable rage which sometimes erupts in times of violence. After one such episode, he was cast out of the order, but he still carries himself as a monk and tries to live up to their ideals, while fighting with his own baser nature.

Barbarian is a class. It can be role-played any way you want.



A role in a party has to do with something someone brings to the table. Damage Dealer, Healer, Utility Caster are roles. They describe what someone does, and while none is strictly necessary, many parties want to have them covered.

I have never been sitting in a group during character creation and had someone go..."Hey, this party won't work! We don't have anyone who is Monastic and highly disciplined! We will all die!!!"



Unarmed swordsage gets wis to AC and imp unarmed. He doesn't get FOB, but he does get maneuvers that are better than FoB.

Most of those other guys can surround themselves with magical defenses and enchant their fists for better AC than the monk's wisdom bonus and better attacks. Some of them (like Psi Warrior and Warblade) can take imp unarmed as a bonus feat if they want. The rest of them just take it as a regular feat and then buff themselves until it works.

ToB, as is Swordsage. And thats the problem right there.

Can't argue with that. I concede to your superior logic.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Monastic Barbarian is actually quite easy. Just rephrase "Rage" into "Battle Aluclarity." You enter a state of higher mental capabilities that allow you to temporary delve into deep reserves of strength and fortitude by bypassing subconcious limits on your body (Bonuses to Str and Con and bonus to Will saves). This state is physically tiring as your pushing your body beyond its normal limits and reduces your reaction to attacks as you focus on offense(Thus the fatigue afterward and AC penalty). As you grow stronger (gain levels) you can enter this state more often (more rage uses), your state lets you delve deeper into more potent reserves of strenght (Greater and Mighty Rage) and eventually the state doesn't tire you at all(Tireless Rage). Your body slowly achieves perfect state, reducing the effectivness of enemy blows (increasing DR). The begining of your training involves learning proper footwork and strengthening your reflexes (Fast Movement). Your monastic mental training precludes you a sense of innate foresight to avoid certain dangers (Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense). Eventually your mental excercises allow you to shove off suggestive magic (Indomitable Will).

I think I covered every Barbarian Class feature with a monastic Re-fluff. Did I miss anything?

[Squidfist]

Monastic Barbarian is actually quite easy. Just rephrase "Rage" into "Battle Aluclarity." You enter a state of higher mental capabilities that allow you to temporary delve into deep reserves of strength and fortitude by bypassing subconcious limits on your body (Bonuses to Str and Con and bonus to Will saves). This state is physically tiring as your pushing your body beyond its normal limits and reduces your reaction to attacks as you focus on offense(Thus the fatigue afterward and AC penalty). As you grow stronger (gain levels) you can enter this state more often (more rage uses), your state lets you delve deeper into more potent reserves of strenght (Greater and Mighty Rage) and eventually the state doesn't tire you at all(Tireless Rage). Your body slowly achieves perfect state, reducing the effectivness of enemy blows (increasing DR). The begining of your training involves learning proper footwork and strengthening your reflexes (Fast Movement). Your monastic mental training precludes you a sense of innate foresight to avoid certain dangers (Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense). Eventually your mental excercises allow you to shove off suggestive magic (Indomitable Will).

I think I covered every Barbarian Class feature with a monastic Re-fluff. Did I miss anything?

I can dig it- the only problem being that rage doesn't let you preform complex combat actions, such as fighting defensively, which doesn't really fall in line with the idea of a monk-rage. But that's pretty minor, and could be fluffed out I'm sure.

On another note, I'd love to see an Ascetic Barbarian feat.

[Oscredwin]

I would like to point out that Squidfist just changed his mind from a firmly held postion due to an internet debate.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I would like to point out that Squidfist just changed his mind from a firmly held postion due to an internet debate.

Yeah. And he changed his position really quick, and used the words "superior logic", which makes me a bit suspicious.

But I'll let it go.

[Squidfist]

Yeah. And he changed his position really quick, and used the words "superior logic", which makes me a bit suspicious.

But I'll let it go.
Well, he DID do a nice job explaining a monastic Barbarian / Bard, which I found quite silly on first thought.

Also, it takes a special kind of idiot to not realize when he's been had. I mean, I could continue to fight tooth and nail while ignoring everything that's been typed at me, if that's a better option... but instead, I think it's probably best to admit defeat and learn a thing or two.

I do still think FS is a gimpy flavorless class though, if you're looking for some dedication to 'bad ideas'.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I do still think FS is a gimpy flavorless class though, if you're looking for some dedication to bad ideas.

Cleric and wizard could stand to be knocked down a peg. Two, actually. Sorc and favored soul are plenty strong, but if you really want, knock down the spell level gains one level, to even it with the wizard/cleric progression, and adjust the table so they gain spells known as one level higher.

[Squidfist]

Cleric and wizard could stand to be knocked down a peg. Two, actually. Sorc and favored soul are plenty strong, but if you really want, knock down the spell level gains one level, to even it with the wizard/cleric progression, and adjust the table so they gain spells known as one level higher.

Good suggestion. My current homebrew adds one domain (getting domain spells like a cleric) and a bonus feat at 1st, 4th, 7th etc. I've only had a player roll this variant once, and he was a casual player, so it's hard to say if this would be completely unbalanced in the wrong hands.