What makes Metamagic feats good?

[caden_varn]

I've never really played a high level mage in 3.x for various reasons, so my practical experience is a bit limited, but the metamagic feats available in the PH look a bit - well, meh to me. Mostly the requirement of the higher level slots -it looked to me that things like empower or maximise don't match up to an equivalent normal spell of replaced level would be - comparing an empowered magic missile to a standard scorching ray for example, although I suspect a rather poor one).
I can see that some could be situationally useful (like Silent) but these are not generally seen as the good ones if I understand correctly.

But people who use them (and are much better at looking at the statistics than me) like them, so I am obviously missing something - so what makes them useful? Does it need something to reduce the level rise penalty to be worthwhile, or is it a case of picking the correct spells, or just a case of getting more bang out of a limited amount of spells known/in spellbook?

[deuxhero]

Action economy means swift is amazing.

Extend Spell generally puts spells into the "all day" for +1 (though the best matches are spells under level 3, so the rod is better here)

Metamagic cost reduction however, is where the real cheese is.

[Hylas]

As a sorcerer, who has a limited spell selection, metamagic feats can greatly extend your viable spell selection. An empowered fireball is almost as good as a level 6 blast spell, but takes up a level 3 spell slot in your spells known. And (I think) you can still use lesser metamagic rods on it too.

[Duke of URL]

Metamagic, especially outside of core, is crazy good... once you start getting into reducers.

See, paying a +3 adjustment for Maximize is a fairly steep cost, although it may be situationally useful (when you absolutely must do max damage).

But it's a far better deal when you can drop that to +2 or +1 using feats and class features.

[Slipperychicken]

Quicken is wonderful (2 spells per round, also unlocks some combos), same with Extend. It gets better if you can reduce the spell-level-adjustment somehow (arcane thesis, metamagic rods, Divine Metamagic), or apply it spontaneously. Otherwise, most other metamagics aren't much better than spells of the modified level.

[Pigkappa]

But people who use them (and are much better at looking at the statistics than me) like them, so I am obviously missing something - so what makes them useful? Does it need something to reduce the level rise penalty to be worthwhile, or is it a case of picking the correct spells, or just a case of getting more bang out of a limited amount of spells known/in spellbook?

When played with the entire level modifier, they are awful-to-average feats.

Wotc realized that, so they made a few feats or prestige classes able to lower a little (generally by one) the cost of metamagic spells under some conditions.

Players make metamagic-dedicated builds and take more than one of those reducers, so they can cast Quickened spells at +1 or even +0.

[Flickerdart]

One spell per round is good.

Two spells per round (Quicken Spell) is better.

Four spells per round (Twin Spell or Split Ray) is better yet.

Using stuff like Arcane Thesis, it's very easy to mitigate the adjustment costs on a spell you really like.

[caden_varn]

Thanks everyone! I feel a bit less stupid now, which is always a nice thing :smallsmile:

Not having any splatbooks for 3.5 makes it difficult to see the full picture.

[ericgrau]

An empowered fireball does more damage than most 5th level spells and covers a decent area.

The mistake you made was comparing force damage to fire damage. In general more damage is better, but often it's better to have a different type. Empowered magic missiles are better against a single ghost for example or against a fire elemental.

IMO empower and quicken are the best in the player's handbook. Other feats I'd get on a metamagic rod or a sorcerer, since they can apply them on the fly only when needed (but the best 2 feats are great for them too). This is a great way to effectively give a sorcerer a dozen high level spells known rather than some high and some low. So a mid to high level wizard might have glitterdust as a weak backup while a sorcerer can heighten glitterdust as a strong backup when that clump of giants finally comes, without hurting the versatility of his other high level spells for all the other fights.

While metamagic cost reducing tricks are helpful to break the feats in half, it's not essential to make them good.