Practiced Manifester

[FearlessGnome]

In a hilarious effort horrible misappropriation of the time I should be spending on an essay, I've started building a hypothetical psionic character. Now, two things.

First: Practiced Manifester. The feat description says it can be taken multiple times; each time applying to a different manifester class. Is there an errata/update here, or have they actually decided that you should not be able to take Practiced Manifester: Psion twice?
On a tangent: If you take the feat, and then multiclass into something that does not progress Manifester level, do you, upon returning to Psion, have access to higher level powers? This is not how it works for wizards and such, but I seem to have come across quite a few people saying that Psion 1-5 + Commoner 1-4 + Psion 6 lets you pick fifth level Powers, ie as though you had just taken Psion 10. Is this so, or is it wishful thinking?

Second: Is there a race out there that is Tiny and has LA0? (Or near enough?) Beguilers have a 'Cohort level adjustment' of 0, so that might be allowed by a considerable minority of DMs, but are there alternatives? I seem to remember there being a Tiny fey out there somewhere, but the only one I found is the Petal, which has a Cohort-LA of +2...

[hivedragon]

first: okay how PM works is if you take a psionic class and than multiclass in another class (for up to 4 levels) without lossing out on manifester levels.

A psion4/fighter4 has a manifester level of 8, however your powers known and power points are that of a level 4 psion.

second: i've heard of a type of kobold that has slight build (thed oposite of powerful build) on some wotc article.

[Dimers]

Is there an errata/update here, or have they actually decided that you should not be able to take Practiced Manifester: Psion twice?

You certainly can't. That's how it is with Practiced Caster, too.


On a tangent: If you take the feat, and then multiclass into something that does not progress Manifester level, do you, upon returning to Psion, have access to higher level powers? This is not how it works for wizards and such, but I seem to have come across quite a few people saying that Psion 1-5 + Commoner 1-4 + Psion 6 lets you pick fifth level Powers, ie as though you had just taken Psion 10. Is this so, or is it wishful thinking?

Technically it's true. You're allowed to learn any power that you have enough manifester level to cast. Whether that's RAI or not is an open question. I suspect not, because it doesn't stay in line with expectations for spellcasters. Among the many arguments that could be made against my interpretation, though, is the fact that the wording is unnatural and seems to be avoiding flat-out telling you "take a 5th-level or lower power at these levels".

[dsmiles]

I'm AFB, but I believe Psion is Psion, is Psion as far as Practiced Manifester goes. Each sub-class of psion (egoist, telepath, shaper, etc) is not considered a different class, per se.

Tangent: I think you gain pp/day and manifester level. Manifester level is what gives you access to higher level powers, IIRC.
So (hypothetically) a Psion 4/PsyWar 4 with Practiced Manifester: Psion would be a 8th level manifester for purposes of Psion powers, and could choose 4th level powers. If said character also had Practiced Manifester: PsyWar they would be an 8th level manifester there, too.

Second: I don't think so, but again, I'm AFB. So I could be wrong.

[Ballis]

Jermlaine are tiny LA0 fey I believe.

[Ernir]

Manifester level is what gives you access to higher level powers, IIRC.
On a tangent: If you take the feat, and then multiclass into something that does not progress Manifester level, do you, upon returning to Psion, have access to higher level powers? This is not how it works for wizards and such, but I seem to have come across quite a few people saying that Psion 1-5 + Commoner 1-4 + Psion 6 lets you pick fifth level Powers, ie as though you had just taken Psion 10. Is this so, or is it wishful thinking?

This (ML-based power selection) is how it works for Ardents. Psions have a fixed maximum power level known, as can be seen on their class table.

[IdleMuse]

Jermlaine are tiny LA0 fey I believe.

Indeed they are. The book reference is MM2p131, but you also need the 3.5 errata for MM2 which gives them an LA of +0

There's also the Muckdweller, an LA+0 Tiny Monstrous Humanoid from Serpent Kingdoms, p71.

Most Hengeyokai (Oriental Adventures) have a Tiny or smaller form, and again thanks to the 3.5 update (and the removal of the Shapechanger type) have LA+0.

There's also another one in the Dragon Compendium I think, which I don't have access to.

[dsmiles]

This (ML-based power selection) is how it works for Ardents. Psions have a fixed maximum power level known, as can be seen on their class table.
Fair enough. Like I said, I'm AFB. (And I rarely multiclass out of Psion, except into full-maifester PrCs, or Thrallherd [and 2ML is hardly worth a feat].)

[kardar233]

I'm not sure where you're getting this information from, y'all.

Psion's max power level learned is based on the Psion table, which is progressed by class levels or "advances manifesting" levels.

You're all thinking of the Ardent, who by RAW learns peers based on manifester level, which is increased by PM. An Ardent can learn powers of any level they are able to manifest.

~EDIT~ Hardcore Lurk'd by Ernir.

[Dimers]

Ernir and Kardar are correct; I was misremembering a line on XPH 20 that says psions can manifest high level powers based on their ML. That doesn't mean they can learn those powers in the first place. Thanks for the correction, y'all.

EDIT: Hey, you said "y'all" too! And punctuated it correctly! Don't see that very often. **happy south'n boih**

[kardar233]

I spent eight days on a canoe trip with a quintessential Texan, who carried around a bowie knife the size of my hand and complained about "danggum wonky-jawed skeeters"; I've been working on a Texan accent ever since. Great guy.

OT, well... Ardent+PM gets you 4th-level powers in a 3-level dip; which means Metamorphosis. :smallwink:

[Rejusu]

Practised manifester affects two things and two things only:

1) Your manifester level, which is used to determine the maximum number of power points you can spend on a single power (ie a Psion with an ML of 1 can only spend 1 power point per power which means they can't augment anything at that level) as well as durations/ranges for certain powers.

2) Your BONUS PP, because this is based on manifester level (key ability modifier × your manifester level ×½).

It doesn't give you any more powers known or your base power points (as you only gain these from class levels in Psion) or your maximum level power (as this is capped by your Psionic class level).

So yes it's wishful thinking, you also can't apply it to the same class twice so try not to lose too many manifester levels. It's worth noting that the Ardent works this way though because due to poor editing in CPsi the max level powers it can learn are determined by it's ML rather than being capped by class levels. What most people don't mention though is that you still only learn new powers when you actually take a level in the class or spend a feat to gain them.

As for being tiny... nothing off the top of my head. But you could take a small race and then use Expanded Knowledge to pick up Compression off the Psychic Warrior power list. This lets you shrink yourself for x rounds/level (augmentable to 1 min/level) one size category so you could go from small to tiny. When you have an ML of 7 you can augment it further to go down two size categories all the way to diminutive.

[Psyren]

Tibbits in cat form are Tiny, LA 0 and can use psionic powers.

You cannot take "Practiced Manifester: Psion" more than once. Sub-classes of Psion (Egoist, Telepath etc.) are still officially Psions, in the same way that Evokers and Illusionists are still officially Wizards.

[Yora]

Technically it's true. You're allowed to learn any power that you have enough manifester level to cast.
No, it is not. the Divine Mind is the only class that can manifest powers and only needing a manifester level to do so. The Psion and Psychic warrior have hardcoded maximum power levels known in their class levels.
As a 4th level psion/4th level fighter, you still can only learn 2nd level powers, because "maximum power level 2nd" is a class feature of a 4th level psion.

[Psyren]

No, it is not. the Divine Mind is the only class that can manifest powers and only needing a manifester level to do so.

I think you meant Ardent there, but you are otherwise correct :smallwink:

[Rubik]

Do note that how much you can augment a power by is based on your manifester level, and some powers augment into higher level spell equivalents (such as Psionic Open Chakra and Psionic Charm). So you can EFFECTIVELY get access to higher level powers through a higher manifester level.

[rot42]

second: i've heard of a type of kobold that has slight build (thed oposite of powerful build) on some wotc article.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a

[heinrich]

I'm not quite sure if "Practeiced Manifester" war erratad, but the way it is written on dndtools.net it explicitly states, that the bonus to the manifester level does not affect the powers per day and powers known.

So, reading the Ardent on dndtools.net there is a section names "powers known" and a table column named "powers known". Both those contain information not affected by "practiced manifester", right ?

So, I argue, that for adding a new power to the powers know, the ardent must qualify (be able to manifest the power) without the benefit "Practeiced Manifester".

Other opinions ?

[Psyren]

1st, this thread is over 5 years old.

2nd, this reading is due to the fact that the Ardent, unlike the Psion, lacks a "Maximum Power Level Known" column on their class table. It only states that they must have a ML high enough to manifest whatever power they're trying to learn. By boosting your ML (or repairing it, in the case of PM) you can grab higher level powers as written than your class level would suggest.