Mailcleric: Mailman with HAMMERS!

[Snowbluff]

So, I was looking at the Mailman, and I was thinking "I play clerics, not Wiz/Sorc! The First (and Last) time I played one, The DM ended the game!"

So, what to do, what to do...
Hammer of Righteousness is uncapped Force Damage! Fort Half (Dammit, anything you really need to kill has 30+ con, like a Dragon >.>), Spell Resist Yes (If spell resist if ever a problem, you're doing it wrong). It also deals Str Damage to you when you use it.

So here's the Plan: Basic Admixture, Twin Spell, Maximize, Easy Metamagic.

Some DMM, probably DMM Quicken. I go Persist normally, but this is a special case. i might not even bother, since Turning MIght be scarce.

Dweomerkeeper. So, the Magic Domain has Anyspell. I can qualify this way right? Mantle with your trusty Hammer, so you can cast it Spontaneously. You might need the feat to lower the casting time with Metamagic, ask your DM if you're going to do this. Metaphysical Spellshaper (BoEF) is called fore here regardless, and we're already working on a fix for ability damage.

Metaphysical Spell Shaper. It's good. Caps with a -1 to MM total spell level, lets you MM Spontaneous spell with increasing casting time (which makes you take Ability Damage).

Arcane Thesis: Hammer of the Righteous. This is a toughy, it can be cast as either Divine or Arcane, as it is a Sanctified spell.

Chaos Shuffle an Elf, preferably a... well, none these look good. Your own discretion. So... 4 feats earned here?

To handle the Ability damage? Either Strongheart Vest or the binding that helps. A small Dip into Incarnate would be Nice, but then you couldn't Chaos Shuffle yourself, keep that in Mind. 2 levels will give 2 essentia, which can be invested in the Vest for 3 total abilty Damage reduction. Or Shape Soulmeld (Strong Heart Vest) and Bonus Essentia will accomplish the same thing (You can Meldshape with Shape Soulmeld, so it's +2). Alternatively, you can spend a Spell Slot on Sheltered Vitality.

Maybe cheese some early entry with Versatile Spellcaster as well.

EDIT: Oh, right. Caster Level should be high, as well.

Candle of Invocation, wear it on your head like a miner's candle.

Ioun stone?

Spell Penetration! Oooh right! Sub-par, but penetration is a must. Maybe use Anyspell to cast Assay Resistance?

(Greater) Spell Focus (Good), Spell Focus (Evocation) to help with those DCs.

[Ernir]

So here's the Plan: Basic Admixture, Twin Spell, Maximize, Easy Metamagic.
Energy Admixture can not be applied to Hammer of Righteousness, as it is a [Force] spell. You could convert it to another energy type, I suppose, but then you are losing one of the spell's chief strengths.

Mantle with your trusty Hammer, so you can cast it Spontaneously.
Good Clerics can already cast Hammer of Righteousness spontaneously, as it is a Sanctified spell.

Arcane Thesis: Hammer of the Righteous. This is a toughy, it can be cast as either Divine or Arcane, as it is a Sanctified spell.
It is cast as a Divine spell if you are casting it as a Cleric. You will need some way to convert it to an Arcane spell.

Spell Penetration! Oooh right! Sub-par, but penetration is a must.
Your build includes Dweomerkeeper. Convert the spell to a supernatural ability if you reaaally think you have to beat SR.

Maybe use Anyspell to cast Assay Resistance?
Assay Spell Resistance is on the Cleric spell list already.

EDIT:

So, the Magic Domain has Anyspell. I can qualify this way right?
You should be able to qualify with Anyspell, but it is on the Spell domain, not the Magic domain.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Here's your basic problem:

Incantatrix is much better at unlimited mitigation of metamagic costs than Cleric is. DMM runs on turn attempts, and eventually, you're gonna run out.

Mailman is done with several thousand damage per turn because he can chain, twin, quicken, etc... all on the same spell. Every round.

You will find yourself having to spend turn attempts like water if you want to begin to get into spitting distance of that.

Also, beware the monsters with arbitrary SR, like Golems.

You'd almost do better with Flame Strike + Scorching/Searing Spell, since half the damage isn't fire anyways.

[Snowbluff]

Energy Admixture can not be applied to Hammer of Righteousness, as it is a [Force] spell. You could convert it to another energy type, I suppose, but then you are losing one of the spell's chief strengths.

It is cast as a Divine spell if you are casting it as a Cleric. You will need some way to convert it to an Arcane spell.

Your build includes Dweomerkeeper. Convert the spell to a supernatural ability if you reaaally think you have to beat SR.

Assay Spell Resistance is on the Cleric spell list already.

EDIT:

You should be able to qualify with Anyspell, but it is on the Spell domain, not the Magic domain.

Kk, but are sure about [Force] not being an energy type? I've always ruled that it was. :smallconfused:

As for Arcane Thesis, I can cast as an Arcane Spell with Greater Anyspell, since it can function as either (Wizard can cast it as Arcane, ergo, it's an Arcane spell).


@Shneeky My biggest Problem isn't actually turn attempts and MM use. Dweomer Keeper reduces metamagic cost by one each, Arcane Thesis (assuming my silly interpretation of the spell).

The actual strength of Hammer is the uncapped damage, which is messy due to the Fort Save. Flame Strike is not my first choice due to it capping soooooo low, as well as allowing a save and being SR: Yes. Thanks for the suggestion, anyway. If you have any other good spells for this, it's be nice to know. :smallbiggrin:

Btw, new trick. While it probably will not increase the CL as much as I would like, using a variety of Reserve Feats that would be keyed to the MMed Hammer. The Admixtures on it qualify for multiple CL boosts this way, and each CL boost gives more d6 for each Admixture as well. The problem would be whether or not this is more effective than picking up more Admixtures (2 feats each). Dweomer Keepers's weakness is that it doesn't pick up more feats like Incantatrix.

As for DMM, MM reduction should Help. Grabbing extra pools, having a decent Cha, a Nightstick (or alot, depending on your DM) should help Maximize the benefit of DMM. I'd say DMM one Admixture or Twinspell, then Easy MM another, so you don't have to blow a bunch of feats on Easy MM, or a bunch of Turning on DMM. I'll have to check the effects of using more Turning versus Stacking DMM with Easy MM on the same feat.

Obviously, this won't work as well as Sorc, my intent is to simply make an effective blaster using the class I play most, as an OP/though Experiment.

[Ernir]

Kk, but are sure about [Force] not being an energy type? I've always ruled that it was.
Read the feat descriptions for Energy Substitution and Energy Admixture. The applicable energy types are listed.

As for Arcane Thesis, I can cast as an Arcane Spell with Greater Anyspell, since it can function as either (Wizard can cast it as Arcane, ergo, it's an Arcane spell).
This requires you to spend a 6th-level spell slot (Greater Anyspell) on every Hammer you cast (not to mention 15 minutes in preparation for each), as Anyspell only works for Wizard spells of level 2 and below. Hardly efficient. Also, metamagic interactions with Anyspell are poorly defined.

Try Alternative Source Spell (Dragon Magazine 325) or Southern Magician (Races of Faerûn) instead.

[Snowbluff]

Read the feat descriptions for Energy Substitution and Energy Admixture. The applicable energy types are listed.

This requires you to spend a 6th-level spell slot (Greater Anyspell) on every Hammer you cast (not to mention 15 minutes in preparation for each), as Anyspell only works for Wizard spells of level 2 and below. Hardly efficient. Also, metamagic interactions with Anyspell are poorly defined.

Try Alternative Source Spell (Dragon Magazine 325) or Southern Magician (Races of Faerûn) instead.

The applicable energy type you can make the Admixture, the MM can be applied to 'any spell with an energy descriptor'. I can't choose [Force] for this feat, but it doesn't keep me from applying it to [Force] spells.

Kk, your way might not require any form of interpretation, and therefore is better. I'll just point out that it being castable Arcane is a requirement for the feat, but not required for the benefit. Hammer of Righteousness is a spell, either Arcane or Divine. I only need to be able to cast as arcane for the feat, it does not suddenly become a different spell for the benefit if I use it on Arcane, does it?

[Snowbluff]

Read the feat descriptions for Energy Substitution and Energy Admixture. The applicable energy types are listed.

This requires you to spend a 6th-level spell slot (Greater Anyspell) on every Hammer you cast (not to mention 15 minutes in preparation for each), as Anyspell only works for Wizard spells of level 2 and below. Hardly efficient. Also, metamagic interactions with Anyspell are poorly defined.

Try Alternative Source Spell (Dragon Magazine 325) or Southern Magician (Races of Faerûn) instead.

The applicable energy type you can make the Admixture, the MM can be applied to 'any spell with an energy descriptor'. I can't choose [Force] for this feat, but it doesn't keep me from applying it to [Force] spells.

Kk, your way might not require any form of interpretation, and therefore is better. I'll just point out that it being castable Arcane is a requirement for the feat, but not required for the benefit. Hammer of Righteousness is a spell, either Arcane or Divine. I only need to be able to cast as arcane for the feat, it does not suddenly become a different spell for the benefit if I use it on Arcane, does it?

[Cieyrin]

If you're looking for an Elf to Chaos shuffle, you probably want to go Star Elf for the +Cha to get extra turn uses out of.

[subject42]

Couldn't you abuse divine spell power here? Since the damage of the spell is based on caster level, you should be able to do the same thing that you do with Holy Word/Blasphemy abuse.

[Snowbluff]

If you're looking for an Elf to Chaos shuffle, you probably want to go Star Elf for the +Cha to get extra turn uses out of.

Excellent! May I have the source? It's not in my index.

The extra Cha will also help with Divine Spell Power, which is good with Hammer's uncapped damage. That and DMM make this unique to Cleric. Which is good, since having it's own flavor helps legitimize the idea.

[DeAnno]

One annoying thing to remember when using a lot of Anyspell is it has an obnoxiously long casting time, which can screw up morning schedules in some situations, especially when you cast lots of them.

[subject42]

If you're going to abuse Divine Spell power you'll need to crank your turning check up into the stratosphere. What level are you?

In order to max it out, here's a starting (but not exhaustive) list:

Crank your charisma up as high as you can. If you can get it to 18, there's a +4 right there.
Get an admiral's bicorn. That's another +5, for a net +9.
The sacred shield from BoED gives another +2, for a net +11.
The glory domain increases it another +2, for a net +13
There's a synergy bonus for having high ranks in Knowledge (Religion), which grants another +2, for a net +15.
Casting consecrate gives another +3 to turning checks (according to Libris Mortis) for a net +18.


Can you combine heighten turning along with divine spell power? It's a turning check, but it doesn't do damage.

You can replace the bicorn with a circlet of persuasion, which only provides a +3 instead of a +5.

Assuming that you can abuse heighten turning and you use all of those things along with divine spell power, at 10th level you would be able to pull a (1d20 + 28)d6 damage with an otherwise unmodified casting of Hammer of Righteousness.

[Cieyrin]

Excellent! May I have the source? It's not in my index.

The extra Cha will also help with Divine Spell Power, which is good with Hammer's uncapped damage. That and DMM make this unique to Cleric. Which is good, since having it's own flavor helps legitimize the idea.

It's from Unapproachable East, though now that I read it they apparently don't get the racial weapon proficiencies, instead getting other stuff, like being one of the rare Extraplanar Humanoids and having their weapons be Ghost Touch after dark. Welp, that's somewhat of a bust if you wanted to DCS 'em. :smallfrown:

[Snowbluff]

One annoying thing to remember when using a lot of Anyspell is it has an obnoxiously long casting time, which can screw up morning schedules in some situations, especially when you cast lots of them.

Well, you only really need Anyspell to qualify for Arcane oonly things, like Arcane Thesis, which will still affect hammer even when cast as Divine.


If you're going to abuse Divine Spell power you'll need to crank your turning check up into the stratosphere. What level are you?

In order to max it out, here's a starting (but not exhaustive) list:

Crank your charisma up as high as you can. If you can get it to 18, there's a +4 right there.
Get an admiral's bicorn. That's another +5, for a net +9.
The sacred shield from BoED gives another +2, for a net +11.
The glory domain increases it another +2, for a net +13
There's a synergy bonus for having high ranks in Knowledge (Religion), which grants another +2, for a net +15.
Casting consecrate gives another +3 to turning checks (according to Libris Mortis) for a net +18.


Can you combine heighten turning along with divine spell power? It's a turning check, but it doesn't do damage.

You can replace the bicorn with a circlet of persuasion, which only provides a +3 instead of a +5.

Assuming that you can abuse heighten turning and you use all of those things along with divine spell power, at 10th level you would be able to pull a (1d20 + 28)d6 damage with an otherwise unmodified casting of Hammer of Righteousness.

Excellent. The Circlet/Bicorn is a good catch, since Turning is a Cha based check.

You should be able to add Heighten Turning, but it comes with a Feat tax, which is pretty harsh considering that this build does not get bonus feats

Also, 3 levels of Hierophant (either 3+ CL, 3 relevant reserve feats for the CL, or another Admixture), 10 Dweomer Keeper, 3 MP Spellshaper (Enter at three with Verstaile spell cast + more entry cheese, retrain feats at 5/6), 1 Sacred Exo (Second turning pool, so 3 + cha more turning), and 2 Cleric seems like the good build for this.

Reserve feats are still nice for the stacking CL boosts. :smallwink:

EDIT: FYI, DSP caps at +4 at a 22 Turning Check. Also, all of this CL boosting helps versus spell resistance.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Why bother with CL boosting your hammer when you can just CL boost Holy Word/Dictum/Blasphemy/Hammer of Chaos for no-save-just-die without a [Death] descriptor? arbitrary damage (i.e. an arbitrary amount of damage necessary to kill) > finite damage. Plus, it's area effect, so it's innately multi-target. Change which one you use to suit the alignment of opponents.

At low levels? Fell Drain + Burning Hands (from the Fire domain) ought to do the job. DMM: Fell Drain lets you pull it off at level 1 as a human with no further loops involved.

[Snowbluff]

Why bother with CL boosting your hammer when you can just CL boost Holy Word/Dictum/Blasphemy/Hammer of Chaos for no-save-just-die without a [Death] descriptor? arbitrary damage (i.e. an arbitrary amount of damage necessary to kill) > finite damage. Plus, it's area effect, so it's innately multi-target. Change which one you use to suit the alignment of opponents.

At low levels? Fell Drain + Burning Hands (from the Fire domain) ought to do the job. DMM: Fell Drain lets you pull it off at level 1 as a human with no further loops involved.

You still can, nothing is stopping you. If you use the 3 Heirophant for straight up CL, you don't lose a CL beforehand, the CL items and Divine Spell Power Still works. The neat thing about CL stacking is it makes just about anything better. Even better, if you have are fighting creatures immune to sonics, you can use some the Admixture prereq to give it a more suitable descriptor, solving the problem. As for fighting a good creature (it happens), you had better just hit it with a Hammer.

I just wanted to make a build that lets Cleric effectively deal damage with spells. I think you'll find a decent argument for just blowing stuff up every once in a while in the original Mailman thread.

[Keld Denar]

Needs more spiritual weapons, IMO. And by more, I mean Quickened Repeating Twinned Fell Draining.

Hammer Swarm GOOOOOOO!

Also, Occular Spell + Split Ray for 3 times 2 (Twin) Spiritual Weapons on round 1 plus Quickened Twinned Repeating Hammers for a total of 8 Spiritual Hammers on round 1, followed by 8 more on the 2nd round thanks to Repeat spell. 16 whirling Hammers of roomy doom that you can sick on folks for big hurt, since each one inflicts a negative level, and by the time you can pull this all off, you'll probably get 3 attacks per round with each.

Stop! Hammer Time!

[Snowbluff]

Needs more spiritual weapons, IMO. And by more, I mean Quickened Repeating Twinned Fell Draining.

Hammer Swarm GOOOOOOO!

Also, Occular Spell + Split Ray for 3 times 2 (Twin) Spiritual Weapons on round 1 plus Quickened Twinned Repeating Hammers for a total of 8 Spiritual Hammers on round 1, followed by 8 more on the 2nd round thanks to Repeat spell. 16 whirling Hammers of roomy doom that you can sick on folks for big hurt, since each one inflicts a negative level, and by the time you can pull this all off, you'll probably get 3 attacks per round with each.

Stop! Hammer Time!

>:D yes... YES! BWAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA Your ingenuity may have won us the war! Too bad you may not Admixt- wait. Yes, you can. :smallbiggrin:


So I am Packing 2 Admixtures (4 feats), Twin, Max, Repeating, Empower, Quicken for 9 total MM feats.

I have Divine Spell Power, Shape Soulmeld, Arcane Thesis (Hammer), DMM (Idk, I am thinking of Linking it to Twin), Craft Wonderous Item (for Dweomekeeper) for 5 other feats.

I have 16 feats in my build (4 from the Shuffle, 2 from Flaws, 7 from levels, 3 from Heirophant). This gives some room for another Admixture, some Easy MM, Ocular Spell/Split Ray combo, or some CL boosts.

Also, if PF traits are allowed, Magical Lineage, hands down.

[Chronos]

Also, Occular Spell + Split Ray for 3 times 2 (Twin) Spiritual Weapons on round 1 plus Quickened Twinned Repeating Hammers for a total of 8 Spiritual Hammers on round 1, followed by 8 more on the 2nd round thanks to Repeat spell. 16 whirling Hammers of roomy doom that you can sick on folks for big hurt, since each one inflicts a negative level, and by the time you can pull this all off, you'll probably get 3 attacks per round with each.
You missed something. It's not 16 hammers of doom; it's 16 hammers of doom that come out of your eyes. That's important to get right.

[Snowbluff]

Let's point out some differences between Spiritual Weapon versus Hammer of the Righteous.

SW:
CL conversion: 3 per 1 CL, caps at 5
Damage from CL can not be Maximized or Empower.
Repeat is awesome with it. Same with Twin. It's Strength is that it continuously attacks, and gains iterative attacks. Makes it good for CoDzilla and Fell Drain.
Admixtures? Yep.
SR: Yes
It doesn't have a target as far as "eye" can "see", so no Ocular Spell.
Level 2, nice low level makes up for not being Thesisable as far as I can tell.

Hammer:
CL conversion: d6 per 1, uncapped (!!!).
Can be Empower and Maximized.
Admixtures: yes.
Fort for half. Ouch.
SR: Yes, but harsh CL stacking works to great effect with this spell.
Solid single hit. The 1d3 Str damage is a pain to deal with, though.
Has a target in the description, so you can Ocular Spell with it.
Can be cast as Arcane (Good Wizards exist), so Arcane Thesis is available.

Both of these spells are a low enough level to Quicken easily, which is nice.

[Kumori]

Keld Denar, thank you. I've been looking at Spiritual Weapon (and Mage's Sword, to a lesser extent) and trying to come up with some way to make a Hammerdin, of sorts, from Diablo 2. Now I kinda have a way.

[Cieyrin]

Needs more spiritual weapons, IMO. And by more, I mean Quickened Repeating Twinned Fell Draining.

Hammer Swarm GOOOOOOO!

Also, Occular Spell + Split Ray for 3 times 2 (Twin) Spiritual Weapons on round 1 plus Quickened Twinned Repeating Hammers for a total of 8 Spiritual Hammers on round 1, followed by 8 more on the 2nd round thanks to Repeat spell. 16 whirling Hammers of roomy doom that you can sick on folks for big hurt, since each one inflicts a negative level, and by the time you can pull this all off, you'll probably get 3 attacks per round with each.

Stop! Hammer Time!

I've always wanted to know how to make Collette. Now I know. Pow Pow Hammer!

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ln5i1oiNun1qbe7n1o1_500.png

[Snowbluff]

I've always wanted to know how to make Collette. Now I know. Pow Pow Hammer!

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ln5i1oiNun1qbe7n1o1_500.png



Gehehehehehe! :smalltongue:

I actually play tested the Metaphysical/Cleric as a level 5, and it's pretty good. My floating maces beat stuff up pretty well without me having to drop my Sanctuary. When I did eventually end it, I nailed a Formian Taskmaster with my Hammer of Righteousness, killing it and releasing the Gunslinger from Dominate Monster. Unfortunately the OP and overleveled Gunslinger with a Will of 1 got Dominated again and nearly one-shotted me (29 of my 31 health gone) before we Killed the second Taskmaster. Afterwards I got bit by a Worker and was unconcious at 0 hp for the rest of the fight.

I found a new trick as well. Using Sheltered Vitality I can put as much MM on a spell and cast it as a full Full round action, no Meldshaping feats required, unless you want to cut the cost of you persisting Sheltered Vitality. I can also use the Anyspell for Persisted Alterself brokenness.

[Draz74]

Stop! Hammer Time!

Now the question becomes, which Cleric buffs boost your Touch AC the most?

[Snowbluff]

Now the question becomes, which Cleric buffs boost your Touch AC the most?

Start with Divine Agility. My Sanctuary spell actually did a really goo job keeping people from touching me. :smallcool:

I prefer to Drop the Hammer though.

Meanwhile, we need more cool/punny names. My cleric for this is Duhast Hammstein the Hammer.

EDIT: Also, Scintillating Scales give a deflection based on your Con score. Which can be through the roof with buffs.