[3.5] In need of assistance with shadowcraft mage

[Quintessence]

so i was glancing through all of the base classes and i don't really know which to use. i was thinking about battle sorcerer so that i could fight with a sword while i level up to be able to take shadowcraft mage. however then i saw duskblade and was wondering if that might be better choice. the DM is open to pretty much any book i just have to clear it with him first, i don't want to feel useless in the beginning, please help!

[onemorelurker]

Here's (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5638) a handbook for the class which details several possible entry classes (under "on the base of the killer gnome's power").

Personally, I'd recommend Wizard and focusing your early spells on stuff like buffing and battlefield control, so as not to die before you can get to SCM. Plus, the gnome illusionist substitution level is really nice.

[Aegis013]

I think, personally, Wizard is the optimal class.
You feel useless at low levels playing a Wizard?

[Quintessence]

I think, personally, Wizard is the optimal class.
You feel useless at low levels playing a Wizard?

it is a 5 person group so the CR is quite high when we start playing


Here's (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5638) a handbook for the class which details several possible entry classes (under "on the base of the killer gnome's power").

Personally, I'd recommend Wizard and focusing your early spells on stuff like buffing and battlefield control, so as not to die before you can get to SCM. Plus, the gnome illusionist substitution level is really nice.

i see, i always feel kind of powerless on a early wizard due to the way our DM runs things. like multiple encounters with no rest and stuff like that. i guess battle sorcerer isn't a good choice since it isn't outlined in the handbook...

[Aegis013]

it is a 5 person group so the CR is quite high when we start playing

i see, i always feel kind of powerless on a early wizard due to the way our DM runs things. like multiple encounters with no rest and stuff like that. i guess battle sorcerer isn't a good choice since it isn't outlined in the handbook...

Multiple encounters with no rest shouldn't be that big of a problem assuming you have a reasonably high intelligence score and are focused on battlefield control at early levels. One cast of grease can lock down several enemies and then you just let your 4 party members mop them up.

If you feel useless doing things like that, I would recommend playing a Tome of Battle class, based on your original post, it sounds like you're interesting in being a contributor on the martial front, rather than the back-of-the-line support caster.

[Quintessence]

Multiple encounters with no rest shouldn't be that big of a problem assuming you have a reasonably high intelligence score and are focused on battlefield control at early levels. One cast of grease can lock down several enemies and then you just let your 4 party members mop them up.

If you feel useless doing things like that, I would recommend playing a Tome of Battle class, based on your original post, it sounds like you're interesting in being a contributor on the martial front, rather than the back-of-the-line support caster.

but isn't grease a really small area? also i'm not sure how a tome of battle class would transition into a shadowcraft mage. could you explain please?

[Aegis013]

but isn't grease a really small area? also i'm not sure how a tome of battle class would transition into a shadowcraft mage. could you explain please?

Grease covers a 10 sq ft area. It's a big enough area to usually catch more than one foe. If you're fighting a lot more than 4 or so enemies, things like obscuring mist or solid fog will be better. Sleet storm, once available.

A Tome of Battle class won't translate into a shadowcraft mage, but from your previous posts, it doesn't sound particularly like you want to be what a shadowcraft mage does best. A back-of-the-team support caster. If you're looking to blow up enemies, shadowcraft mage is likely not going to be the most fun for you. Mailman would likely be more up your alley, caster-wise.

I suppose I should simply ask, what is your goal with this character?

[Quintessence]

Grease covers a 10 sq ft area. It's a big enough area to usually catch more than one foe. If you're fighting a lot more than 4 or so enemies, things like obscuring mist or solid fog will be better. Sleet storm, once available.

A Tome of Battle class won't translate into a shadowcraft mage, but from your previous posts, it doesn't sound particularly like you want to be what a shadowcraft mage does best. A back-of-the-team support caster. If you're looking to blow up enemies, shadowcraft mage is likely not going to be the most fun for you. Mailman would likely be more up your alley, caster-wise.

I suppose I should simply ask, what is your goal with this character?

i very much enjoy support but my friends are relatively new to the game so i was trying to cover as many bases as i could.

[onemorelurker]

but isn't grease a really small area? also i'm not sure how a tome of battle class would transition into a shadowcraft mage. could you explain please?

What Aegis is saying is that, from the sound of it, an SCM isn't really up your alley. They're incredibly versatile spellcasters, sure, but if you want to be up front whacking dudes (a perfectly valid desire), you should play a character that allows you to do that, rather than trying to tack melee capabilities onto a build that really has no use for them.

EDIT: D'oh! Swordsage'd!

[Aegis013]

i very much enjoy support but my friends are relatively new to the game so i was trying to cover as many bases as i could.

I can see why you might want to do this, but I recommend against it. Being good at everything can result in your game mates feeling redundant and useless. If you're the experienced one of the group, covering 1 area (especially support) really well can enhance everybody's experience: support seems to be a good one, in my experience.

I recommend against doing something that you will find less fun, but you might fill in whatever roll is missing from the group and/or offer your aid in making sure your group is able to manage so you don't have to concern yourself with this.

[onemorelurker]

i very much enjoy support but my friends are relatively new to the game so i was trying to cover as many bases as i could.

What does the rest of your party look like? As Aegis said, instead of trying to do everything, you should be focusing on filling the gaps that the other characters aren't (and, preferably, doing so in a way that will still let everyone else shine).

[Quintessence]

I can see why you might want to do this, but I recommend against it. Being good at everything can result in your game mates feeling redundant and useless. If you're the experienced one of the group, covering 1 area (especially support) really well can enhance everybody's experience: support seems to be a good one, in my experience.

I recommend against doing something that you will find less fun, but you might fill in whatever roll is missing from the group and/or offer your aid in making sure your group is able to manage so you don't have to concern yourself with this.

so my best bet is to just stick to wizard or sorcerer and support to the best of my ability. alright thank you for the assistance, thank you also onemorelurker



What does the rest of your party look like? As Aegis said, instead of trying to do everything, you should be focusing on filling the gaps that the other characters aren't (and, preferably, doing so in a way that will still let everyone else shine).

we have a bard, fighter so far the rest haven't decided

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I don't think that handbook does the Cleric entry justice. For one thing, you definitely do not need the Eberron-specific Shadow domain to qualify for Shadowcraft Mage, as a Heightened Dark Way is more than sufficient. Second, it makes no mention of the Gnome and Illusion domains, both of which give you +1 caster level for illusion spells. Finally, with the PH2 ACF you can spontaneously cast your spells from one of those domains (both contain Silent Image) instead of Cures or Inflicts, so you've basically got Signature Spell built in. Add on DMM: Heighten and Night Sticks and there's very little limit to what you can accomplish.

Wizard does have more/better options, but Cleric is definitely a viable alternative regardless of setting. No other entry can even match those two, especially when you consider Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) versus Beguiler and Focused Specialist versus Sorcerer.

Another thing to be aware of is the legitimacy of Shadow Miracles. Some will say that taking the Arcane Disciple feat for a domain that includes Miracle will enable you to mimic it with Shadow Illusion, but this is completely incorrect. Shadow Illusion mimics spells from the general sorcerer/wizard spell list. Adding spells to your own personal spell list has absolutely nothing to do with what spells your shadow illusions can mimic, regardless of what spellcasting class you're using. If Shadow Miracles were possible, then you would not even need Arcane Disciple, because as long as someone, somewhere had used that feat to add Miracle to their own spell list, it would be sufficient to permit everyone to use Shadow Miracles. This is not the case, and Miracle is not on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list no matter how someone tries to spin it. Don't fall into this trap, and definitely don't listen if someone tries to tell you that it works.

[Acanous]

Didn't WoTC respond to the Miracle claim once, saying it could be done but only at 100% reality?

[Quintessence]

I don't think that handbook does the Cleric entry justice. For one thing, you definitely do not need the Eberron-specific Shadow domain to qualify for Shadowcraft Mage, as a Heightened Dark Way is more than sufficient. Second, it makes no mention of the Gnome and Illusion domains, both of which give you +1 caster level for illusion spells. Finally, with the PH2 ACF you can spontaneously cast your spells from one of those domains (both contain Silent Image) instead of Cures or Inflicts, so you've basically got Signature Spell built in. Add on DMM: Heighten and Night Sticks and there's very little limit to what you can accomplish.

Wizard does have more/better options, but Cleric is definitely a viable alternative regardless of setting. No other entry can even match those two, especially when you consider Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) versus Beguiler and Focused Specialist versus Sorcerer.

Another thing to be aware of is the legitimacy of Shadow Miracles. Some will say that taking the Arcane Disciple feat for a domain that includes Miracle will enable you to mimic it with Shadow Illusion, but this is completely incorrect. Shadow Illusion mimics spells from the general sorcerer/wizard spell list. Adding spells to your own personal spell list has absolutely nothing to do with what spells your shadow illusions can mimic, regardless of what spellcasting class you're using. If Shadow Miracles were possible, then you would not even need Arcane Disciple, because as long as someone, somewhere had used that feat to add Miracle to their own spell list, it would be sufficient to permit everyone to use Shadow Miracles. This is not the case, and Miracle is not on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list no matter how someone tries to spin it. Don't fall into this trap, and definitely don't listen if someone tries to tell you that it works.

oh that is interesting, so then maybe a cleric would be the way to go to accomplish what i want to do. thank you for a very informative read, i never would have guessed a cleric could do it so easily based on that handbook.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

oh that is interesting, so then maybe a cleric would be the way to go to accomplish what i want to do. thank you for a very informative read, i never would have guessed a cleric could do it so easily based on that handbook.

I actually think a Wizard entry is better in the long run, especially if you don't want to get extremely cheesy with DMM: Heighten. Cleric is definitely the second best choice on my list, but Wizard just has too much to offer.

You can only get the Enhanced Shadow Reality feat (Dragon magazine 325) as a specialist Illusionist, which adds +20% reality to your shadow illusions. The Gnome Wizard substitution level gives you Silent Image as a 0-level spell, so with Earth Spell you automatically get an extra +1 caster level, with another +2 if you get Arcane Thesis.

Master Specialist 4 gives you +2 DC to all of your shadow illusions, for both the initial will save and then whatever save the spell you're mimicking allows. All of the Illusionist variants from UA (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#illusionistVariants) are worth taking, and with Illusion Mastery there you can get Signature Spell without having to spend a feat on Spell Mastery.

That guide also fails to mention Ability Focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#abilityFocus): Silent Image and Residual Magic from Complete Mage. Ability Focus will add +2 DC to every Silent Image you cast, and since all of your shadow illusions will be a Heightened Silent Image anyway, that's +2 DC to every shadow illusion you cast. Residual Magic lets you cast a spell with a metamagic feat (Heightened Silent Image), and then the following round if you cast that same spell again it gets the same metamagic applied absolutely free. That makes every other shadow illusion you cast take only a 0th/1st level spell slot, or you get two shadow illusions out of each DMM: Heighten you use.

[Quintessence]

I actually think a Wizard entry is better in the long run, especially if you don't want to get extremely cheesy with DMM: Heighten. Cleric is definitely the second best choice on my list, but Wizard just has too much to offer.

You can only get the Enhanced Shadow Reality feat (Dragon magazine 325) as a specialist Illusionist, which adds +20% reality to your shadow illusions. The Gnome Wizard substitution level gives you Silent Image as a 0-level spell, so with Earth Spell you automatically get an extra +1 caster level, with another +2 if you get Arcane Thesis.

Master Specialist 4 gives you +2 DC to all of your shadow illusions, for both the initial will save and then whatever save the spell you're mimicking allows. All of the Illusionist variants from UA (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#illusionistVariants) are worth taking, and with Illusion Mastery there you can get Signature Spell without having to spend a feat on Spell Mastery.

That guide also fails to mention Ability Focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#abilityFocus): Silent Image and Residual Magic from Complete Mage. Ability Focus will add +2 DC to every Silent Image you cast, and since all of your shadow illusions will be a Heightened Silent Image anyway, that's +2 DC to every shadow illusion you cast. Residual Magic lets you cast a spell with a metamagic feat (Heightened Silent Image), and then the following round if you cast that same spell again it gets the same metamagic applied absolutely free. That makes every other shadow illusion you cast take only a 0th/1st level spell slot, or you get two shadow illusions out of each DMM: Heighten you use.

so what schools would you suggest i drop to get to master specialist?

[nedz]

Well given the very small number of spells you need to know Sorceror is very viable: just start with Colour Spray and Silent Image. This is much better than Wizard at 1st level, but from 3rd onwards Wizard prevails, especially with substitution levels etc.
Given the power of the killer gnome I doubt you'll notice the power difference too much.
The choice is really about your style of play and how much you want to overshadow the rest of the party. Basically: do you want to be a fountain of knowledge or a pretty face ?

[Quintessence]

Well given the very small number of spells you need to know Sorceror is very viable: just start with Colour Spray and Silent Image. This is much better than Wizard at 1st level, but from 3rd onwards Wizard prevails, especially with substitution levels etc.
Given the power of the killer gnome I doubt you'll notice the power difference too much.
The choice is really about your style of play and how much you want to overshadow the rest of the party. Basically: do you want to be a fountain of knowledge or a pretty face ?

i think i am going to go with wizard just because of all the nice perks you get for specializing in illusion, i am kind of on the fence for what schools to drop however. i am thinking evocation and enchantment or necromancy.

[2xMachina]

so what schools would you suggest i drop to get to master specialist?

Evocation can be dropped easily. You can mimic evocation easily.

Conjuration could also be mimicked, but you miss some spells IIRC.

I think Enchantment and Necromancy is the other 2 weak schools. At high lvls, mindless/mindblank = immune to most enchantment, and a lot of Necromancy gets blocked by Death ward. They're decent at low lvls tho.

You may want to look into Focused Specialist. Drop 3 schools in total (1 extra than normal Specialist) to get more spells in your Focused school.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you go Wizard, you should definitely also get the Focused Specialist variant from Complete Mage (page 34). For that you give up one more school, but you gain more spells/day. If you use the Illusion Mastery ACF from UA/SRD, you won't get your bonus spell slots for basic specialization, so with that and Focused Specialist you'll have as many spells/day as a typical specialist wizard, though one extra spell slot of each level can only be used for illusions. I'd get rid of Enchantment, Evocation, and Necromancy, those are typically the easiest to lose.

Get two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm), because the build is extremely feat-intensive. You'll absolutely need Spell Focus: Illusion, Earth Sense, Heighten Spell, Earth Spell, Residual Magic, Enhanced Shadow Reality, and Signature Spell: Silent Image, which you can have all of by 12th level. If you go Wizard 3/ Master Specialist 4/ Shadowcraft Mage 5, that's when your good shadow illusions come online. For your 15th and 18th level feats, I'd probably get Ability Focus: Silent Image and Arcane Thesis: Silent Image, and finish the build with Shadowcrafter 8. I've never been a big fan of the Shadow Weave Magic and Shadow Adept dip, despite all of its benefits, plus it probably wouldn't even be available if you're not playing in the Forgotten Realms.

[onemorelurker]

Unlike some of the other folks on this thread, I'm not convinced that you should go Master Specialist. Not because it's weaker than a generalist or standard specialist wizard (it isn't), but because it might be too high-op for the group you're playing in, particularly when added to something as powerful as a Shadowcraft Mage.

[Keld Denar]

I'd actually go Wizard5/ScM5/X. ScM comes with its own early entry tecnique. Earth Spell + Heighten Spell means you can cast a full blown 4th level spell with a 2nd level or lower Shadow spell in a 3rd level slot. The skill reqs are easy from there.

[nedz]

Unlike some of the other folks on this thread, I'm not convinced that you should go Master Specialist. Not because it's weaker than a generalist or standard specialist wizard (it isn't), but because it might be too high-op for the group you're playing in, particularly when added to something as powerful as a Shadowcraft Mage.

Well I did kind of hint in that direction, but then you have to remember things like Arcane Fusion and its big brother. I think it ought to be called the Overshadow build anyway :smallsmile:

[Heliomance]

I'm playing a SCM at the moment. I wouldn't actually recommend Master Specialist, because the 5th level Gnome Illusionist sub level is just so good. All your illusion spells are automatically extended, and this explicitly stacks with Extend Spell.

The build I'm going down is Gnome Focused Illusionist 5/ShadowcrafterUnderdark 2/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Shadowcrafter +8.

As for the UA Illusionist variants, I'd dispute that they're all good. Chains of Disbelief and Illusion Mastery are fantastic, but Shadow Shaper really isn't.

[Harry]

You could try a beguiler5/shadowcraft mage 5/rainbow servant10/ that gives you the ability to cast in light armor casting from the beguiler and the cleric spell list and full shadowcraft mage abilities:smallbiggrin:

[Quintessence]

You could try a beguiler5/shadowcraft mage 5/rainbow servant10/ that gives you the ability to cast in light armor casting from the beguiler and the cleric spell list and full shadowcraft mage abilities:smallbiggrin:

going to stick to wizard for now, too many really nice perks to ignore it.