Anyone else is unamused by Belkar's treatment of the Kobold?

[-Sentinel-]

Don't get me wrong, Order of the Stick is the funniest webcomic I've ever read. But there are instances, especially involving Belkar, where the humor veers into bad taste (no pun intended), and I think Belkar's use of the enslaved Kobold is one such instance.

I'm already uncomfortable with a character (even a villain) being mind-controlled into slavery by the heroes of the story, most of whom are Good-aligned; should the villains enslave a good guy in such a way, it would be considered despicable. Therefore, any humor arising from this situation is unlikely to get many laughs out of me. You can't unmake a joke, but I wish this one were allowed to die out. While it may have been funny to some people the first time around, there's only so much humor you can milk out of a “villain has to eat poop” situation.

Is it just me?

[ti'esar]

If you go back and read the discussion threads for 835 and 840, you should get your answer (hint: it's not "no").

Although most people seemed to have a bigger problem with V's participation.

[Math_Mage]

Belkar's treatment of the kobold is sick and twisted and not particularly funny. It's pretty much in line with how he's treated all the other kobolds (with the exception of the adventurer bait trick, which WAS funny). It's just another reason to not consider Belkar a sympathetic character. IMO that's a perfectly valid reason to handle the scene that way.

[Alex Warlorn]

No. I personally have not found it funny either. They're wasting a perfectly useful replacement Belkar and making sure he tries to kill them the moment he's free.

[FujinAkari]

You aren't finding it funny because it isn't meant to be funny. It is meant to remind of us how horrible person Belkar actually is so we don't mourn him.

[TheSummoner]

I guess I'm in the minority here, but I find it hilarious.

YukYuk shot a cat. With a crossbow. The next thousand strips could be nothing more than Belkar coming up with new ways to torture him and he would still be getting off easy. I'm not claiming for a second that it's a "good" thing to do, but it's far less suffering than YukYuk deserves.

Keep em coming, oh sexy shoeless god of war.

[Skaven]

I find it sick and unfunny too, but you have to realize both Belkar and V are at this point evil. They're keeping the worse aspects of their treatment from Roy and Durkon.

The treatment of Kobolds in these strips has always been a point of contention for me since they're my favourite fantasy race, so I just ignore it as best I can.

[Cavenskull]

No. I personally have not found it funny either. They're wasting a perfectly useful replacement Belkar and making sure he tries to kill them the moment he's free.
Oh, yeah. Because Yukyuk would never have tried to kill anyonebefore the domination/torture (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0790.html). Why would the Order of the Stick want a Belkar replacement anyway? You'd think after their experiences with him, they'd want something as not-evil and psychotic as possible.

[blackspeeker]

You aren't finding it funny because it isn't meant to be funny. It is meant to remind of us how horrible person Belkar actually is so we don't mourn him.

This, this right here is what I think is going on. Also I think The Giant may be trying to build sympathy for what might be belkars replacement. Although Im not entirely buying that last idea.

[Loreni333]

Well, even if that was true, Belkar wouldn't just die. Belkar would come back and beat Yukyuk into oblivion by blowing!

He would become a sexy shoeless GOD OF WAR!

[1dominator]

He shot Mr. Scruffy. No agony is too great.

[KoboldRevenge]

I agree the joke is wearing thin.

Also it makes me angry to see this treatment of my fellow Kobold! Get the Inhuman Resources on their ass!Icansayasssinceit'sinthecomic.

[Kish]

Yukyuk is not going to replace Belkar. For a lot of reasons, but most simply, that would require the Order lose:
1) Belkar, obvious and expected.
2) Vaarsuvius, the one who actually tortured Yukyuk.
3) Durkon, who found the torture unpleasant but not worth actually making an issue of.
4) Haley, who used Yukyuk to set off traps.

The comic is not going to end with an Order of the Stick that consists of Roy, Elan, and a really strange kobold.

[MyNameIsSecret]

Wait, here's a thought. Durkon saw the mistreatment of Yukyuk, and was clearly disgusted by it. He's a Good character, he must disagree with this torture - because that's what it is - so why hasn't he protested against this, or even told Roy? :smallconfused: That seems a bit... strange.

EDIT: Also, I agree with Kish above. I see no reason why Yukyuk would become a part of the OotS.

[Killer Angel]

Is it just me?

Belkar is one of my favourite characters, but I share your same feelings on this.


Although most people seemed to have a bigger problem with V's participation.

That's 'cause Belkar is supposed to be wicked, while V. is descending toward the end of alignment pool.
V. is partecipating in this disgusting thing, sharing the same gross fun and degrading himself on the same level of Belkar.

[pendell]

:Waves hand:

I , too, am unamused by Belkar's mistreatment of a prisoner :smallannoyed:. It's not his first time either. Remember Buggy Lou and his plans for the Eye of Fear and Flame. Using other sapient beings as personal sewage tanks seems to go hand in hand with his inability to care for any other form of life save his own. Even his kindness to Mr. Scruffy reminds me of the pet animals psychopaths are reportedly nice to. They like the pet because it's an extension of themselves.

That said, I am fully satisfied that Belkar will reap what he sows, and it will be most satisfying.

I AM curious as to Durkon's reasons. My guess is that Durkon is concerned about finding the gate and saving the world, and isn't ready to kick up the inter-party friction over a prisoner who's almost certainly going to be killed anyway.

We'll see. The story's not over yet.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Themrys]

You can't unmake a joke, but I wish this one were allowed to die out. While it may have been funny to some people the first time around, there's only so much humor you can milk out of a “villain has to eat poop” situation.

Is it just me?

No.

I still do hope it is not meant to be a joke, but to characterize Belkar and to show how Vaarsuvius is becoming more and more evil.

Hopefully, Vaarsuvius has now, finally, recognized that doing evil things to people is not okay just because "they're evil".

[Caesar]

ITT: People taking the jokes in a completely ficticious cartoon altogether too seriously.

Seriously, lighten up. If that's enough to get your britches in a knot, what are you even doing wasting time on the internet reading comics, anyways? Plenty of real world problems out there that need immediate attention.

As usual, the irony is overwhelming and flies by none-the-less, unnoticed.

[pendell]

Also note that humiliating and degrading enemies is something that evil characters in this comic do. And not just evil, Evil. Xykon and his bouncing ball are closely akin to Belkar and his cruel actions. Redcloak, by contrast, is fairly subdued. So far as I know, the only time he indulged this taste for sadism was when he led the raid on the resistance lair and "decorated it with their corpses", although that could of course be poetic license.

Redcloak doesn't go out of his way to find the most cruel way to humiliate his enemies. That's something Xykon has done since the elf female in Start of Darkness. It's something Belkar does as well.

I strongly suspect, though, that if Belkar doesn't find some way to go out a hero Roy will have to kill him personally.

We'll see.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[D.KnightSpider]

Nope. I'm not amused either.

As others have explained, this is probably just to reiterate that while Belkar is developing a soft spot for the Scruffinator, he still, by and large, couldn't care less about the lives of people in the world.

S'far as the rest of the Order is concerned, the Order does have a very large history of just moving forward with the plot despite any personal problem or inconvenience to a party member. They left Durkon behind without realizing it when he was out of commission; they didn't even bother to stop and verify that V had been lizard-ed (or discern just what was up with V's vanishing act) before pressing on the trail. Heck, Haley didn't even slow down when Celia mysteriously vanished in the middle of the night-- she just went out to knock over Grubwiggler's and happened to run into Celia there. It is keeping with that little mass character quirk for them to just not care about the personal status of one pesron.

Or they're just writing it off as justified karma since YukYuk's evil by virtue of being Linear Guild. Either way, there ya go.

[oppyu]

Yukyuk shot, and attempted to kill his cat, Belkar's torturing Yukyuk in response. Fair enough... it's an evil act, but evil unto evil and not horrifyingly offensive.

The Order as a whole isn't being great to Yukyuk, but it's not like they have a nicer option which is also practical. Letting him go will lead to him trying to kill them, and outright killing him seems a little worse than keeping him alive. A little.

[Winter]

I do not find the actions against the kobold to be not funny at all.

And I consider it a "break of character" that Roy and Durkon tolerate it. Hell, I think even Haley or Elan should be forced by their "good" traits and what we saw from them by now to stop it.

The order acts in a horrible way here (beyond Belkar and Vaarsuivus who DO it) and I cannot come up with a way to explain the tolerance by the four other members of the order and I outright consider it breaking character that Roy and Durkon do not put a stop to it - I'm not talking about the domination, that is fine in itself, but the "Let's have the cat **** in the kobold's mouth".

[Themrys]

Yukyuk shot, and attempted to kill his cat, Belkar's torturing Yukyuk in response. Fair enough... it's an evil act, but evil unto evil and not horrifyingly offensive.

Killing Yukyuk would be "not horrifyingly offensive".

They are (pointlessly, they are not trying to get vital information) torturing him, an act that is evil in itself, regardless of what the person may have done beforehand.

@Winter: Roy doesn't seem to know about it all. He did try to oppose the idea of using Yukyuk to find traps, but was out-logicked by Haley.

Elan is obviously too stupid to understand what is going on - he sincerely believes that Yukyuk is "good at finding traps".

And Haley...well, maybe she would have been against using Yukyuk as a litterbox. Inflicting pain on defenseless enemies is not against her principles, we saw that when she killed Crystal.

Durkon's behaviour could partly be explained by him having realized how evil V has become...maybe he is too much of a coward to tell V to stop it? But that wouldn't explain why he doesn't tell Roy about it.
Durkon's lack of action needs an explanation.

[RecklessFable]

I don't question Belkar. If He does something, then that Something must be Good!


He shot Mr. Scruffy. No agony is too great.

There is that.

[oppyu]

Meh, the question is about amusement, not evil. Nobody's doubting that Belkar and V have done some evil things to Yukyuk, but it's fairly tame (ooh, a cat pooped in his mouth. That's so much worse than anything Belkar's done in the past :smalltongue: ) and at times has been amusing. It looks like he's just walking up the stairs... ZAP! tehe.

*V is NOT evil though; remember that s/he is risking life and limb on an epic quest to save the world. When s/he had a huge power boost, s/he singlehandedly fixed the problems of Hinjo's survivors, and then decided to try and take out the big bad in a selfish, stupid move that still would have been an act of great good if it had worked. And given a choice between continuing hir quest to save the world and trying to win back hir family, s/he sacrificed hir family life for the quest. V may be egotistical, selfish and callous, but s/he isn't evil.

[Smolder]

I guess I'm in the minority here, but I find it hilarious.

YukYuk shot a cat. With a crossbow. The next thousand strips could be nothing more than Belkar coming up with new ways to torture him and he would still be getting off easy. I'm not claiming for a second that it's a "good" thing to do, but it's far less suffering than YukYuk deserves.

Keep em coming, oh sexy shoeless god of war.

Totally agree. The litter-box comic was hilarious.

I think you're all just over-thinking it a bit if you're taking moral stances against fictitious characters' fictitious actions against fictitious victims.

[Steward]

The Order as a whole isn't being great to Yukyuk, but it's not like they have a nicer option which is also practical. Letting him go will lead to him trying to kill them, and outright killing him seems a little worse than keeping him alive. A little.

Wait, what? When they Planeshifted from the ranch dressing plane, what was stopping V from ordering Yukyuk to stand immobile for, I dunno, fifteen minutes while they skedaddled back to the Order with their flying spell? I don't really see why they had to take him along...

[ThePhantasm]

I do not find the actions against the kobold to be not funny at all.

So... you think it is hilarious?

I don't think the Giant is trying to make people hate Belkar so no readers will mourn his death. That's the opposite of what Belkar's sliver of goodness in the arena achieved. I think this is two things: 1) humor based in Belkar's evil (not exactly new to the comic, so why do people always act surprised by it?) and 2) emphasizing that someone in the Order has noticed V didn't return. And who is the first to notice? Belkar. I think that speaks volumes about V's current character... Belkar is the first to be missing him.

As for the joke, well, dark humor isn't for everyone. But I'll add here that when Scruffy was shot, people in the strip thread were coming up with all sorts of creative ways for Belkar to kill the kobold, based all in "how dare he shoot that kitty!" There were numerous threads spawned about that. Now, when Belkar does take his revenge, everyone is all "ew, I don't like this anymore. I'm offended." Um, ok.

[RecklessFable]

Hopefully, Vaarsuvius has now, finally, recognized that doing evil things to people is not okay just because "they're evil".

Let's not jump too far here. Maybe he's learned not to cast fireball in a marketplace but that doesn't mean he's learned that focused and personal torment of a enemy is evil.

Heck, a lot of "good" folks honestly believe that an eye-for-an-eye is a personal matter. Here he's just being a team player...

[oppyu]

Wait, what? When they Planeshifted from the ranch dressing plane, what was stopping V from ordering Yukyuk to stand immobile for, I dunno, fifteen minutes while they skedaddled back to the Order with their flying spell? I don't really see why they had to take him along...
Would it have been that much better to leave him stranded in the Realm of Ranch Dressing for all eternity?

[Trekkin]

Oh, I find it positively vile, all the more so because it's such a perversion of justice -- and it's more evidence that Belkar has some sort of thing for using sentient beings as chamber pots, which is off-puttingly like him.

That said, if they just killed Yukyuk outright for having shot Mr. Scruffy, I'd be at least satisfied. This twisting of that into humiliating torture is serving what I dearly hope is its intended purpose of ensuring I won't miss Belkar.

[Smolder]

May I point out that YukYuk is still alive. His treatment, no matter how gross, is still merciful compared to being turned into a hat. By that measure, Belkar has actually settled down a bit.

[Winter]

So... you think it is hilarious?

Sorry for the double negation. I find it not funny. Not at all.



As for the joke, well, dark humor isn't for everyone. But I'll add here that when Scruffy was shot, people in the strip thread were coming up with all sorts of creative ways for Belkar to kill the kobold, based all in "how dare he shoot that kitty!" There were numerous threads spawned about that. Now, when Belkar does take his revenge, everyone is all "ew, I don't like this anymore. I'm offended." Um, ok.

My problem isn't dark humour (this is not what it is). My problem isn't that it's outright gross (this is what it is).
My problem is I totally do not buy Roy and Durkon standing by when all it took was for Roy to say "Belkar, you'll not use the kobold as toilet for your cat!"

From all what we know about Roy, Durkon, Elan and Haley by now, this is breaking their character - and I do not buy they have too much stress by now to somehow react in the wrong manner. And that's my problem with this.

I do agree it is interesting that Belkar notices Vaarsuvius absence (and Roy has shown before he can forget about allies, see Durkon in the Dungeon of Dorukan or when Vaarsuvius was turned into a lizard).

[Themrys]

May I point out that YukYuk is still alive. His treatment, no matter how gross, is still merciful compared to being turned into a hat. By that measure, Belkar has actually settled down a bit.

Are you familiar with the concept of "A fate worse than death"? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FateWorseThanDeath)

What they are doing to Yukyuk is exactly that. In my opinion. Well, maybe you would prefer it to dying, but I would not. Certainly not in a world where there is an afterlife and the possibility to be resurrected.

[oppyu]

Sorry for the double negation. I find it not funny. Not at all.




My problem isn't dark humour (this is not what it is). My problem isn't that it's outright gross (this is what it is).
My problem is I totally do not buy Roy and Durkon standing by when all it took was for Roy to say "Belkar, you'll not use the kobold as toilet for your cat!"

From all what we know about Roy, Durkon, Elan and Haley by now, this is breaking their character - and I do not buy they have too much stress by now to somehow react in the wrong manner. And that's my problem with this.

I do agree it is interesting that Belkar notices Vaarsuvius absence (and Roy has shown before he can forget about allies, see Durkon in the Dungeon of Dorukan or when Vaarsuvius was turned into a lizard).
The only good character around for the poop-in-mouth incident was Durkon, and he assumed they were going to kill the dangerous enemy first, until it actually happened. We don't see what happened after the incident, so it's possible he could have said the whole "Belkar, you'll not use the kobold as toilet for your cat!" thing.

[oppyu]

Are you familiar with the concept of "A fate worse than death"? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FateWorseThanDeath)

What they are doing to Yukyuk is exactly that. In my opinion. Well, maybe you would prefer it do dying, but I would not. Certainly not in a world where there is an afterlife and the possibility to be resurrected.
Did you really need the tvtropes page to explain what 'A Fate Worse Than Death' is? :smalltongue: And unless Yukyuk has a cleric friend who knows where to find his body, I don't think he'd consider one session of cat poop eating to be worse than being ripped from the material plane.

[Themrys]

Did you really need the tvtropes page to explain what 'A Fate Worse Than Death' is? :smalltongue: And unless Yukyuk has a cleric friend who knows where to find his body, I don't think he'd consider one session of cat poop eating to be worse than being ripped from the material plane.

Without a link to some source, will people believe me that there is, in fact, a fate worse than death?
Most people seem to have difficulties to grasp the concept, and I could think of no other web source that describes it.

Being ripped from the material plane is only bad if you're going to hell, is it? Yukyuk had no mission to save the world or whatever. So he has no reason to be particularly sad about being dead.

Also, you are mistaken if you think he will survive. After what they have done to him, they cannot let him live. He would take revenge. They know that. He knows it. And I doubt he is happy.

[Yaminsoul]

Meh, I agree with the "its not that funny" crowd (more Ick for me)" but, that being said, it is certainly consistent with Belkar's character, and V has never been particularly caring about others not in the party, even before he started his slide.

More interesting that Blackwing has said nothing, as he is now functioning as part of V's conscience, really.

But we have seen a couple of times Roy, Haley, and even Durknik (and yes I am too lazy to link them all) ignore evil acts by Belkar for the sake of party unity. I think this just falls into that category for most of them, and they are less motivated to do something because the Kobold is himself likely evil and going to die anyway.

[Dwy]

Are you familiar with the concept of "A fate worse than death"? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FateWorseThanDeath)

What they are doing to Yukyuk is exactly that. In my opinion. Well, maybe you would prefer it to dying, but I would not. Certainly not in a world where there is an afterlife and the possibility to be resurrected.

And still, killing the orange guy off based on that, would be making the decision that Yuk Yuk thinks this treatment is worse than death without consulting him. Not exactly a very considerate act.

As it currently stands, he's alive, and may one day make his saving throw. When he does, he has a lifetime to forget/plot revenge/make his survival worth it. Many would consider it a bit rash to go "Nah, I'd rather die right now".

In the end it boils down to this: What do you fear most: Death, or living like this? And it would take this thread to extremely forum-illegal territory if we started making assumptions about how a character would answer that question.

That's my five cents anyway.

[Themrys]

And still, killing the orange guy off based on that, would be making the decision that Yuk Yuk thinks this treatment is worse than death without consulting him. Not exactly a very considerate act.


But they are going to kill him anyway. At least that's what they think.

I am sure they don't think "It's more humane to torture him, at least he can escape some day and take revenge, he will prefer that to death"

They didn't have to choose between killing and torturing him. They made a choice between killing him and keeping him dominated. That choice was okay. But then they started to torture him in a way that means they will have to kill him, since there is no way he would just go away and mind his own business after that.

[Smolder]

As for how funny that comic was (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0835.html), I actually felt that the fact that V and Belkar said NO in unison was funnier even then the off-screen litter box action.

:durkon:
Uh, wait-- Aren't ye gonna, you know... kill the kobold first?

NO
:belkar::vaarsuvius:

Isn't it odd to find a situation where the Good guy wants to kill someone, but the Neutral and Bad guy want to let him live?

-

[Themrys]

Would it have been that much better to leave him stranded in the Realm of Ranch Dressing for all eternity?

I am sure one can lead a reasonably happy life in the Realm of Ranch dressing. The people are friendly, and you can't starve.

Anyway, that is not at all the question. No one ever said it was more evil to keep Yukyuk under that spell than to kill him.

It's the using him as cat toilet that is discussed.

And I consider that more evil than killing a kitty. The OotS kill people all the time.
And Mr. Scruffy is, if not neutral, likely as evil as Belkar, so you can't really argue he is an innocent little kitty and therefore not okay to kill.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

I'll agree that the joke is wearing thin.

I also think it's understandable, in that the kobold was part of a group trying to kill them. They're adventurers; consider it a form of frontier justice.

[Suentis]

Wow, I can't believe the responses in here.

Belkar is hilarious, as is his treatment of Yukyuk. In Belkar's world it makes sense and is a form of justice. Belkar doesn't see Yukyuk as a living being, he sees them as he sees everyone else, as a tool to use to his needs. Right now his needs are to make sure his cat has somewhere to use the bathroom.

Is it demented and twisted? Yes, but so is Belkar so it makes sense.

Maybe it's because I don't view the world from a Good perspective, but a much more neutral with an ability to understand why people do things even if I don't agree with them.

[raymundo]

I think it's hilarious. And I really, really don't think he will replace Belkar, the kobold is just another throw-away Belkar-counterpart.. but I'm 100% certain he WILL play another very important role, just because he is still around.. Rich will most likely have something for him in mind, otherwise he would've dumped him. Wait and see

[-Sentinel-]

Wait, here's a thought. Durkon saw the mistreatment of Yukyuk, and was clearly disgusted by it. He's a Good character, he must disagree with this torture - because that's what it is - so why hasn't he protested against this, or even told Roy? :smallconfused: That seems a bit... strange.
That's one of the things bugging me as well. Good-aligned characters have a responsibility to stop evil from happening, not just to refrain from committing evil.



Seriously, lighten up. If that's enough to get your britches in a knot, what are you even doing wasting time on the internet reading comics, anyways? Plenty of real world problems out there that need immediate attention.
I'd love to stop the massacre in Syria, but I'm afraid it's beyond my abilities right now, so here I am. And seriously, the Appeal to Worse Problems (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AppealToWorseProblems) fallacy pisses me off, because it implies we should ignore small problems as long as bigger problems exist.



I think you're all just over-thinking it a bit if you're taking moral stances against fictitious characters' fictitious actions against fictitious victims.
You're aware you are currently on the OotS forum, right? :smalltongue: Nothing you ever say will stop us from having moral debates. Anyway, my initial distaste with the joke was not linked (only) to its morality, but to the humorous value of making the villain eat sh*t. Whenever this joke appears, it somewhat diminishes my enjoyment of the comic, and I think that's a legitimate matter to talk about.



.As for the joke, well, dark humor isn't for everyone.
I do like dark humor. But being dark does not make it inherently funny. It's like dead baby jokes: the best ones are both funny and offensive, but some are offensive without being funny.

Also, this is more poop humor than dark humor.



But I'll add here that when Scruffy was shot, people in the strip thread were coming up with all sorts of creative ways for Belkar to kill the kobold, based all in "how dare he shoot that kitty!" There were numerous threads spawned about that. Now, when Belkar does take his revenge, everyone is all "ew, I don't like this anymore. I'm offended." Um, ok.
I'm guessing these threads are not by the same people, then. We OotS fans disagree on pretty much everything.

I like cats, but some people are overreacting where Mr Scruffy is concerned. (Although I suspect, or at least hope, that much of that overreaction is ironic.)

[Jan Mattys]

Belkar is known for stabbing innocent and good people for the slightest provocation.
Belkar is known to enjoy death, murder and revenge.
Belkar is an evil sociopath.


And people raise a movement to complain when he's abusing a kobold?
I guess if he eviscerated the poor thing in cold blood, it would have been better.

:smallsigh:

Death has become so common that nobody thinks about it any more. Personally, I think a dead kobold is worse than a temporarily mindraped one. At least from the kobold's point of view.

[hamishspence]

Isn't it odd to find a situation where the Good guy wants to kill someone, but the Neutral and Bad guy want to let him live?


Not really. What people may not realize is that while mercy tends to be associated with Good,

it is possible for a "more merciful" decision to be more evil than a "less merciful" decision- since some acts (by various splatbooks) are always evil.

Imagine a judge has the choice, when imposing sentence of executing a murderer, or having them tortured until they're crippled, then released.

The judge thinks the torture is "more merciful" because not only does it let the guy live, but it gives them a chance at repenting later and saving their soul from the Lower Planes.

Perhaps it is- but since torture is always evil (BoED, FC2) but execution for serious crimes is not evil, the merciful decision is the evil one in this case.

[BaronOfHell]

I think it'd be prudent to look at each of the 4 characters expected to something individually.

First of all, the lawful good Roy. I don't think Roy knows yet. He'll most likely expect something is up soon, but not yet. Please remember the recurring joke of D&D players not acknowledging the existance of anyone outside their group or with a direct impact on their quest. On the same time, there've been lots of jokes on how the system of spot, listen and bluff checks basicly mean that sometimes these adventuerers will act in funny ways.

As such, I don't think Roy has acknowledged the kobold more than a temporary asset. Once Roy realises what's going on and if he isn't occupied with something of higher importance (e.g. if the LG shows up), then I think he'll stop it asap. However even if he does so, we know that does not prevent Belkar and V from continueing (despite they never did in past circumstances, merely acknowledged the possibility).

Then there is Elan. He is Chaotic Good and have a rather low intelligence score, so he doesn't very often notice things, unless drama calls for it. I don't think drama calls for the kobold being abused, as such I doubt Elan has noticed. If he found out, he'd probably ask them to stop and otherwise tell Haley, is my guess.

I believe that Haley, who's also chaotic good, like Roy sees the Kobold as a temporary asset, however like V, she'll not shy away from exploiting this asset to further the teams chance of success, even if this means willfully ignoring certain levels of abuse. So like Roy, I don't think she acknowledges the Kobold sufficiently to be able to notice what is going on. If she knew, my guess is that her reaction would be similar to when Belkar stabbed the gnome.

Finally and most importantly, Durkon. He's lawful good, but we've seen before that he doesn't mind keeping secrets from the party leader. Why he decided to keep the events between V and Belkar secret is a good question, I doubt it was for his own amusement, despite taking such. I am not certain if it was because he thought it important for V to carry out hir experiment. Rather I think it was because he evaluaed it was not worth Roy's time, despite Belkar was clearly being abused. I think it might very well be the same case here, but unlike Belkar, Yukyuk can't fight back, so if Durkon notices the abuse of the kobold a couple of times more, I think he'll stop it.
As for the first time he saw it, I think he did mind, but not enough to find it wortwhile to invest ressources in. Especially if Durkon believes it was a semi-justified act of vengeance which wasn't worse than the crime itself and a one-time occurance. After all, Durkon haven't seen more abuse since (I doubt he thought the events at the stairs was anything else than what V said).

Why did Durkon then ask if they weren't going to kill the Kobold first? Because at that time, I think, Durkon thought that was going to be the means of vengeance and the pooping in the mouth merely some twisted Belkar humour.
Now, I think, that Durkon sees the Kobold as an asset who've had his comeupance for shooting the kitty whose actions were likely unknown to the Kobold at the time.

[Winter]

I agree in your example the less evil action is actually the more evil action. That is because you added torture into the mix, which has nothing to do with the outcomes.

If you look at the outcomes, which are "dead" vs. "crippled but alive" it is all still in order in regard to what is more evil than what.
You attached torture to one of the options to make it artifically more evil than the other.

Let me retell your example in two ways:
* The judge has the option to torture the criminal to death or to swiftly have him crippled but alive.
* The judge has the option to kill the criminal or to have him swiftly crippled.

Do you see how it shifts what option is more evil (the third option is your example as you told it). The application of "torture" is what shifts the scales, not the options themselves.

PS: This of course leaves aside there are many ways to cripple the criminal and many different kinds of crippling (and combiniations) that might again make it more mean (evil) or not. Let's leave this debate aside, yes?

[Jay R]

It seems to me that people are dancing around the real issue, which is not surprising, because very few people talk about it openly in the 21st century.

There is nothing new here in terms of morality - Belkar's treatment of kobolds is well-documented, and V's disinterest in the feelings of others equally so.

The reason I enjoyed the earlier jokes and don't enjoy the litter box jokes has nothing to do with levels of evil, or torture, or any other issue.

I find it in poor taste.

It's not more evil. It's not more undeserved.

It's more vulgar.

There will never be complete agreement about where the boundaries of good taste are, so we won't agree on whether this passes those boundaries, but this is the actual issue. And it's not a reason for me to stop reading the comic, which I love. But I would not read a comic in which that kind of humor was a dominant thread, and I'm hoping we get past it soon.

The levels of morality haven't changed. The levels of torture haven't changed.

The level of taste has changed.

[polity4life]

The running gag is funny but it is losing its magic. To those who it offends, I imagine the run will likely end in a few strips as it has gone on for quite some time.

Is it tasteless? Well, if you want to assert that there exists an ontological definition to the word then try to argue your point(in a different thread). Otherwise see it for what it is: a different variety of humor that may appeal to a different crowd.

It certainly brings me back to my old D&D days when I'd roll around as an evil-variant PC and harass pumpkin farmers for no reason whatsoever.

[Bastian Weaver]

Yeah, Belkar is vulgar. But I don't like the Kobold nearly enough to care about his suffering.
That's what happens when you follow Nale, kids.

[Euodiachloris]

I know quoting myself is pretentious, but, hey... this is what I said in the main discussion thread:-


At least somebody has noticed V's still not around. Thank you, Mr Scruffy! Uh... do the precise means count as animal abilities? Or just sicker than having to search the desiccated remains of a corpse? :smallamused:

So, no: there are quite a few of us who are rather less than amused by Belkar's continuing treatment of YukYuk. Not that I think he's as innocent as the driven snow by any means, but this punishment is just... just... seriously? It's petty, disgusting and too likely to backfire horribly, so stupid, as well.


So... you think it is hilarious?

I don't think the Giant is trying to make people hate Belkar so no readers will mourn his death. That's the opposite of what Belkar's sliver of goodness in the arena achieved. I think this is two things: 1) humor based in Belkar's evil (not exactly new to the comic, so why do people always act surprised by it?) and 2) emphasizing that someone in the Order has noticed V didn't return. And who is the first to notice? Belkar. I think that speaks volumes about V's current character... Belkar is the first to be missing him.

As for the joke, well, dark humor isn't for everyone. But I'll add here that when Scruffy was shot, people in the strip thread were coming up with all sorts of creative ways for Belkar to kill the kobold, based all in "how dare he shoot that kitty!" There were numerous threads spawned about that. Now, when Belkar does take his revenge, everyone is all "ew, I don't like this anymore. I'm offended." Um, ok.

So, I'm not the only one wryly amused by this contradictory reaction? Good! :smallbiggrin: Yes, the kobold always deserved a slap on the wrist, at least, for what he did, rather than death from on high. This toilet-humour approach isn't, however, a slap on the wrist. I'd also be tempted to label it a fate worse than death, as it is almost analogous to rape: in this case, a mind rape.

But, all that does make it very much in the preview of Belkar's MO. And, I agree: Belkar, at least, still seems to think V swims in the deeper parts...



I find it in poor taste.

It's not more evil. It's not more undeserved.

It's more vulgar.

Here, here.

I, too, find it repulsive, not just because of any moral issues I may have, but mainly down to the squick-factor. I just don't find that type of thing funny, whatever the context.

[-Sentinel-]

I find it in poor taste.

It's not more evil. It's not more undeserved.

It's more vulgar.
Couldn't agree more. I'd like to think OotS is above toilet humor. If there must be toilet humor, at least make it funny and/or original. Sh*t-eating is neither.

Whether it was deserved, whether it was in-character, and whether it was funny the first time around has already been discussed and I don't think we will agree on it. The point I was bringing at the beginning was: If it was funny the first time, it no longer is, and it won't get any funnier if we repeat it over and over. The joke's been milked dry, and it's time to stop it because there wasn't much to milk in the first place.

[Omergideon]

Wow, I can't believe the responses in here.

Belkar is hilarious, as is his treatment of Yukyuk. In Belkar's world it makes sense and is a form of justice. Belkar doesn't see Yukyuk as a living being, he sees them as he sees everyone else, as a tool to use to his needs. Right now his needs are to make sure his cat has somewhere to use the bathroom.

Is it demented and twisted? Yes, but so is Belkar so it makes sense.

Maybe it's because I don't view the world from a Good perspective, but a much more neutral with an ability to understand why people do things even if I don't agree with them.

I understand, or at least comprehend, Belkar's perspective. I am not suprised he is treating YukYuk as he does. I even think there is a sensible and interesting aspect to V as a character in the way he joins in with and perpertrates the evil acts against the kobold.*

But I do not think they are any more laudable or acceptable or funny for being comprehensible. Such things are seperate issues in my mind. Understanding a choice need not make any impact on it's morality to me.

Now I rarely find jokes where the punchline is "character x suffers pain" to be funny. As they get more disconnected from reality and become absurd perhaps. But this situation is one that falls too close to a real life concept (forcibly restrain a person and then force crap down their throat) to be funny for me. Plus jokes involving toilet humour are not often too funny for me. Generally I find Belkar's sociopathy to be unamusing at best, actively boring and horrible at worst. But this is not the main point of the OP I think.

I think the OPs main problem is that the heroes are doing something we would all roundly condemn and not defend if the villains were to do it (even if we thought it was funny). And yet it seems to be lauded by many people. I think, though I may be wrong.


And I have no problem debating the ethics of fictional characters. It is an interesting way to explore hypothetical scenarios so that we already have some idea how we might need or wish to act in a comparable real life situation it would be immoral to recreate. And that is one of the least benefits for me.

*I think V's callous nature towards Yukyuk is designed in part to really hammer in that he had not learnt the real lesson of why Familicide etc was wrong. He was focused on the misusing magic aspect of it, being sloppy and not being smart. The moral implications of his actions had not sunk in, as his treatment of YukYuk shows. By meeting the effects of one of his acts in such a graphic way it forces V to re-evaluate his moral stance and admit "I have been wrong in how I looked at things and people. I need to own up to that now". The real 1st step for a good redemption arc.

[Smolder]

Let's remember the wise words of the Giant (which I will paraphrase and leave searching for the link as an exercise for the reader)

"Just because a character is evil doesn't mean you can't laugh at his jokes."

[Steward]

Would it have been that much better to leave him stranded in the Realm of Ranch Dressing for all eternity?

Who said that? After they planeshifted, they wound up in a random spot somewhere on the Material Plane. They could have left him there. By the time the spell wore off, they would have been long gone and he would have no way of finding them or even any particular reason to bother trying.


"Just because a character is evil doesn't mean you can't laugh at his jokes."

True, and I don't think that anyone is saying that you can't laugh at his jokes, only that they don't find this particular joke funny. In a 846+ (including the bonus strips, Dragon magazine, and book-only strips) comic, the odds that someone will find every single joke hilarious is beyond remote. Some people like the Yukyuk jokes, some people don't. I don't really get why people are trying to take the debate about how funny they are into some kind of general moral criticism of the reader's sense of humor? People who don't like the jokes aren't prudes, any more than people who do like them are sadists.

[hamishspence]

I agree in your example the less evil action is actually the more evil action. That is because you added torture into the mix, which has nothing to do with the outcomes.

If you look at the outcomes, which are "dead" vs. "crippled but alive" it is all still in order in regard to what is more evil than what.
You attached torture to one of the options to make it artifically more evil than the other.

Actually, you've got it the wrong way round- I added "crippled" to ensure it would be a bit harder for the punished villain to keep on doing villainy.

Originally the options were going to be "killed" vs "tortured then released" - but torture on its own followed by release doesn't seem especially beneficial to the victims of the crimes - all we have is a villain who now has a grudge against the legal system as well.

[Jay R]

Is it tasteless? Well, if you want to assert that there exists an ontological definition to the word then try to argue your point(in a different thread).

Don't be silly. The various threads on this site make it clear that we have no clear ontological definition for lawful, chaotic, good, evil, hit points, or even how D&D should be played, yet we make assertions about them all the time.

Besides, I already said, "There will never be complete agreement about where the boundaries of good taste are..." As Saki wrote:

"After all," said the Duchess vaguely, "there are certain things you can't get away from. Right and wrong, good conduct and moral rectitude, have certain well-defined limits."

"So, for the matter of that," replied Reginald, "has the Russian Empire. The trouble is that the limits are not always in the same place."


Otherwise see it for what it is: a different variety of humor that may appeal to a different crowd.

Well, of course. Tasteless humor is certainly "a different variety of humor that may appeal to a different crowd". Who would deny it?

[Archwizard]

Not everything in the comic has to be funny. It's okay for stuff to be repugnant, disturbing, thought-provoking, whatever. Rich has repeatedly done stuff to challenge common perceptions regarding characters, monsters, alignment, motivations, etc. See links to his thoughts on alignment in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220195).

I find Belkar's behavior regarding Yukyuk to be extremely Belkar. Take his behavior as part of who he is, his place in the story and world Rich is building for our enjoyment.

[King of Nowhere]

I don't find the treatment of the kobold amusing.
Yet i'm still glad he's trreated that way.
remember what he did to mr scruffy. and not because scruffy was an enemy combatant. he assumed scruffy was just an innocent pet, and wanted to hurt him. :smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious:
so I ay, pay evil unto evil.
for every time you kick the dog, the dog's owner shalt kick you one hundred.
Go belkar. make the kobold suffer.

[Math_Mage]

I thought people were just joking when they said YY's attack on Mr. Scruffy justified his subsequent treatment, but it's being repeated a little too often for me not to wonder if some people are saying it seriously...:smallsigh:

[hamishspence]

I thought people were just joking when they said YY's attack on Mr. Scruffy justified his subsequent treatment, but it's being repeated a little too often for me not to wonder if some people are saying it seriously...:smallsigh:

Given the sheer amount of rage at the time of YY's attack on Mr Scruffy, it wouldn't surprise me.

Might be interesting to cross-reference the discussion thread for the earlier strip with the discussion thread for the later one- and see who's essentially repeating what they said at the time, and who's changed their tune and taken the view that Pay Evil Unto Evil only goes so far before becoming excessive.

Would probably take a long time though- and is not that interesting.

[Winter]

Actually, you've got it the wrong way round- I added "crippled" to ensure it would be a bit harder for the punished villain to keep on doing villainy.

No, I got that right. And it's the "less evil" choice because the guy is still alive and still has chances to change and be better now.


Originally the options were going to be "killed" vs "tortured then released" - but torture on its own followed by release doesn't seem especially beneficial to the victims of the crimes - all we have is a villain who now has a grudge against the legal system as well.

Yes, that is why I argued that the addition of "torture" (and not crippling) makes the lesser evil the bigger evil, but this does not follow from the intended outcomes. Depending on which path you add torture you make that path more evil than the other (and this may flip what is more evil than what (flip: cripple by torture is more evil than killing) or may just reinforce the unmodified order (torture with killing is more evil than just killing)).


Not everything in the comic has to be funny. It's okay for stuff to be repugnant, disturbing, thought-provoking, whatever. Rich has repeatedly done stuff to challenge common perceptions regarding characters, monsters, alignment, motivations, etc.

I think you are overanalysing it. It's just poop-humour living one strip too long. Sure, there might be some intention, but I think that could have done just as well without the repeated gross cat-poop-in-the-mouth-joke.
Actually, I think Belkar is so established evil that it would not have been necessary to smear that in our face again (with poop). Who is not convinced that Belkar is a horrible person will not be convinced by this (but might just cheer at his "coolness").

[hamishspence]

No, I got that right.

The point I was making was that, since torture is "always evil" (in several sources), and execution for the most serious crimes is "not evil" (in BoED)

then any sentence that includes torture in it, is "more evil" than one which is Execution only.

Unless the execution qualifies as "torture" in its own right.


And it's the "less evil" choice because the guy is still alive and still has chances to change and be better now.

Less evil by the "it's more merciful, and mercy is good, therefore it's more good" standard- but not by the standard that holds the less merciful decision as not actually evil.

[J's]

It seems to me that people are dancing around the real issue, which is not surprising, because very few people talk about it openly in the 21st century.

There is nothing new here in terms of morality - Belkar's treatment of kobolds is well-documented, and V's disinterest in the feelings of others equally so.

The reason I enjoyed the earlier jokes and don't enjoy the litter box jokes has nothing to do with levels of evil, or torture, or any other issue.

I find it in poor taste.

It's not more evil. It's not more undeserved.

It's more vulgar.

There will never be complete agreement about where the boundaries of good taste are, so we won't agree on whether this passes those boundaries, but this is the actual issue. And it's not a reason for me to stop reading the comic, which I love. But I would not read a comic in which that kind of humor was a dominant thread, and I'm hoping we get past it soon.

The levels of morality haven't changed. The levels of torture haven't changed.

The level of taste has changed.

Interesting, if you contrast this litterbox head with the salsa head, I personally find eating salsa from it worse. from a vulgar standpoint. Personally I didn't laugh, I don't think it was played for a laugh, beyond me not usually laughing at poop jokes.

The comments about it not stopping - Durkon my have forbade future events, but he was not there when Beklar asked. Beklar also pointedly avoided telling Roy why he needed the mouth open. Neither Elan or Haley seem to have been around for an incident. While you can argue that Durkon not telling the others and getting B and V punished might be out of character, he has also been busy. And I think the room of dead has caused an understandable loss of memory. I doubt there will be a moment of peace before B's death for him to remember and tell the boss.

[oppyu]

I thought people were just joking when they said YY's attack on Mr. Scruffy justified his subsequent treatment, but it's being repeated a little too often for me not to wonder if some people are saying it seriously...:smallsigh:
I wouldn't say 'justifies' as much as 'prevents me from feeling too sorry for him.' The same way I won't feel too sorry for Belkar when he makes his trip to the afterlife, or didn't feel sorry for Crystal when Haley abruptly ended their violent rivalry. Or in Tvtropes-language, Kick the Son of a B**** (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KickTheSonOfABitch).

[Kish]

As usual, the irony is overwhelming and flies by none-the-less, unnoticed.
I never get why people offer "Why are you acting like there should be MORALITY in FICTION?" as though it was a legitimate criticism.

I mean, it's unanswerable, by virtue of being too bizarre to have an answer. So, if what you want is to chalk up a point to yourself, I suppose you can.

[King of Nowhere]

I thought people were just joking when they said YY's attack on Mr. Scruffy justified his subsequent treatment, but it's being repeated a little too often for me not to wonder if some people are saying it seriously...:smallsigh:

in the real world it would not be justified, but this is not the real world, so screw it.
besides, i think shoooting someone's pet like that could end you in prison. I'd rater eat poo than go in prison, so y*ky*k is getting away with little, for the moment.

and keep in mind that everything we know about the kobold points towards him being a totally bad guy. the only reason it would not be right to kill him on the spot is that in our world we have a law system that actually works, more or less.

[Math_Mage]

in the real world it would not be justified, but this is not the real world, so screw it.
besides, i think shoooting someone's pet like that could end you in prison. I'd rater eat poo than go in prison, so y*ky*k is getting away with little, for the moment.

and keep in mind that everything we know about the kobold points towards him being a totally bad guy. the only reason it would not be right to kill him on the spot is that in our world we have a law system that actually works, more or less.

Shoulda stuck with oppyu's explanation, as there is no way forcing someone to eat feces would not merit legal punishment.

[Archwizard]

Not everything in the comic has to be funny. It's okay for stuff to be repugnant, disturbing, thought-provoking, whatever. Rich has repeatedly done stuff to challenge common perceptions regarding characters, monsters, alignment, motivations, etc. See links to his thoughts on alignment in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220195).

I find Belkar's behavior regarding Yukyuk to be extremely Belkar. Take his behavior as part of who he is, his place in the story and world Rich is building for our enjoyment.


I think you are overanalysing it. It's just poop-humour living one strip too long. Sure, there might be some intention, but I think that could have done just as well without the repeated gross cat-poop-in-the-mouth-joke.
Actually, I think Belkar is so established evil that it would not have been necessary to smear that in our face again (with poop). Who is not convinced that Belkar is a horrible person will not be convinced by this (but might just cheer at his "coolness").

You do realize that I did absolutely no analyzing of anything, right? I commented on other people's (over) analysis of this comic, and pointed out some of Rich's positions/behavior in the past on these lines.

[Anteros]

I guess I'm in the minority here, but I find it hilarious.

YukYuk shot a cat. With a crossbow. The next thousand strips could be nothing more than Belkar coming up with new ways to torture him and he would still be getting off easy. I'm not claiming for a second that it's a "good" thing to do, but it's far less suffering than YukYuk deserves.

Keep em coming, oh sexy shoeless god of war.

It's just a cat. They're food in most countries. Besides, they're evil anyway.

[Euodiachloris]

It's just a cat. They're food in most countries. Besides, they're evil anyway.

On pain of being pelted with rotten tomatoes...

...there's a trope for that: Cats are Mean (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CatsAreMean).

<ducks> :smallwink:

[TheSummoner]

It's just a cat. They're food in most countries. Besides, they're evil anyway.

You could take any random thing no matter how weird, disgusting, or even downright dangerous to eat. Someone somewhere would eat it. Casu marzu is a good example (and one I do not reccomend looking up on a full stomach).

But as you said. It's a cat. An animal. An animal who did nothing and yet YukYuk shot it with a crossbow for no reason other than his own perverse amusement. I can't help but have a bit more empathy for an animal than a sadist who tortures small animals for fun.

Well, now YukYuk is the one being tormented by someone more powerful than himself with no ability to fight back or resist. It's karma. He deserves every moment of it and more. Maybe it's disgusting, but I (unlike YukYuk) find every moment of it quite delicious.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

I think it is Rich creating both sympathy and antipathy for Belkar at the same time. This way when he dies, nobody will be sure whether or he died a hero or a villain.

We all know Belkar will die soon, but nobody knows exactly how he will go. Saving V, saving everyone, or just being a jerk. Belkar has always been both a hero and a villain. He will probably leave this world the way he's always lived in it. Loved and hated at the same time, both as a hero and a killer.

[Othniel Edden]

I get this feeling that Durkon just really dislikes confrontation. especially with other party members. He always seems slow to violence, unless its prudent, though that might be a biproduct of his high wisdom.

[Man on Fire]

Somebody who is evil does something cruel and evil?
Ranger express his hate for his favored enemy?
Stop the press!

[t209]

I think Kobold deserved for shooting Bellkar's kitty.

[Kalmageddon]

In the context of the group the joke itself is kind of out of place, as others have mentioned, why a group with 4 good aligned chracter doesn't simply put a stop to it?
But I try not to think about it too much, it's a comedy strip, who cares about consistency if you can get a good joke out of ignoring it.

The probelm if anything is that the joke is old and not funny. Yeah, Belakr's an a-hole, we get it. At least be creative about it, how about using the kobold as a scratching pole for Mr Scruffy? Not that extreme but it could still be funny if we want to keep the whole "using kobolds as furniture" thing.

So yeah, I agree with the OP to an extent.

[Winter]

Well, now YukYuk is the one being tormented by someone more powerful than himself with no ability to fight back or resist. It's karma. He deserves every moment of it and more.

"An eye for an eye makes the world go blind". Just saying.

Because someone did evil to you does not mean you can do evil to him to "balance it out". Even assuming the evil you do is not evil because he did evil to you first is a mis-conception.

[TheSummoner]

"An eye for an eye makes the world go blind". Just saying.

Because someone did evil to you does not mean you can do evil to him to "balance it out". Even assuming the evil you do is not evil because he did evil to you first is a mis-conception.

So says the guy whose signature is Arya's prayer for the death of everyone whose name she says. :smalltongue:

Seriously though, I never once claimed that torturing him was the "good" thing to do, just that he deserves it. If anything, Belkar is letting him off light.

[hamishspence]

Mindsets:

"Other people suffering is funny"
Xykon, Belkar

"Animals suffering is funny"
Yuk-yuk

"Bad people suffering is funny"
V, and ... various posters.

That's what it seems like.

[-Sentinel-]

Mindsets:

"Other people suffering is funny"
Xykon, Belkar

"Animals suffering is funny"
Yuk-yuk

"Bad people suffering is funny"
V, and ... various posters.

That's what it seems like.

And my mindset goes: "People having to eat sh*t, regardless of who they are and whether they deserve it, is as disgusting, vulgar and immature as humor gets. Shall we move on to better jokes, please?"

Even if said better jokes involve a kobold suffering, I don't mind. It's just that the litterbox joke is wearing thin very fast. I never liked it in the first place, but I'm sure even those who did will grow weary of it if they have a mental age above twelve.

[Winter]

So says the guy whose signature is Arya's prayer for the death of everyone whose name she says. :smalltongue:

Yepp, says that person. If she wanted to **** in their mouths, I'd also find it odd.


Seriously though, I never once claimed that torturing him was the "good" thing to do, just that he deserves it. If anything, Belkar is letting him off light.

For what? Fighting a fight? Shooting an animal? Shooting an animal that could be an animal-companion? Torture is never cool... and Mr. Scruffy was a valid target. And even if not, it was cruel but really, should it warrant this? Nope.

Punish those who deserve it in a fitting manner or don't. Just do not poop in their mouth because you think it's funny.

I'm also not getting why Vaarsuvius is taking part in this. This is really, I mean... come on. V has been slightly and outright evil but this utterly sadistic streak is new and not really follows what we have seen so far.

I'm pretty much agreeing with -Sentinel-.
Rich has always had moments of humor that really was borderline to gross or over, but pooping into people's mouths and referencing it repeated times crossed some line for me. I never liked the gross parts but I think this goes a tad too far and I hope we will never see this scope again for as long as the comic runs.
It's something you'd tolerate but roll your eyes over if it was written by a 12 year old, this way it's just... "come on, please let's get over with it and please, replace these parts in the print-version with something actually funny".
Unless Vaarsuvius has a REALLY good reason to go with this there I'd say this was a pretty strange move.

And top of all this, my personal estimate is this: This is, in the end, a "morally justified" topic.
Is it morally justified to poop into someones mouth because you think it's funny and as some kind of torture or not?
As such, we do not reach a conclusion. Yes, it's evil in D&D terms but the discussion that follows from that basically comes down where YOU stand morally and ethically on this. I think we all agree it`s evil, we might disagree if Vaarsuvius taking part is breaking character or not, but what we make of all this and if we think if it's ok or not is nothing we can decide from within the D&D aligment-framework.

Or am I wrong and this can be discussed from within D&D?

If we stick to the topic to the thread and just answer the question, this is a non-issue. Yes, I'm unamused. But now what? Wuh...

[Math_Mage]

Seriously though, I never once claimed that torturing him was the "good" thing to do, just that he deserves it. If anything, Belkar is letting him off light.

I'm struggling to understand the equation between "kills small animals for fun" and "deserves to be forced to eat ****."

[Winter]

I'm struggling to understand the equation between "kills small animals for fun" and "deserves to be forced to eat ****."

Especially if there's a valid reason to kill the cat. Or at least there could be. That the kobold felt it fun to do so is another matter, but in a world of magical companions, it's not that evil in itself to take care of that.

[hamishspence]

Shall we move on to better jokes, please?"

Even if said better jokes involve a kobold suffering, I don't mind. It's just that the litterbox joke is wearing thin very fast.

True. Maybe it's not intended to be funny- or at least those people who do find it funny are intended to think for a bit afterward- and see how horrible it really is on closer examination.

[Winter]

Hopefully. :)

(But that'll probably fail. :))

[hamishspence]

The books have commentaries which discuss various scenes, sometimes mentioning the "intention" behind scenes.

When the strips for this book are finally all done, and the bonus strips and commentaries, and the book comes out, maybe we'll find out.

[Themrys]

"An eye for an eye makes the world go blind". Just saying.

Because someone did evil to you does not mean you can do evil to him to "balance it out". Even assuming the evil you do is not evil because he did evil to you first is a mis-conception.

Actually, the "an eye for an eye" rule was very likely invented to stop people from taking disproportionate revenge.

"An eye for an eye" would, in this case, have been to shoot Yukyuks animal companion. Which would have been completely reasonable (given the fact that said animal is dangerous) and no one would have complained about it.

[oppyu]

I'm struggling to understand the equation between "kills small animals for fun" and "deserves to be forced to eat ****."
Killing small animals - 500 points on malev-o-meter. A horrific act with no moral justification.
Forcing someone to consume cat faeces - 50 points on malev-o-meter. Schoolyard bullying.

500 > 50. There's your equation :smalltongue:

[dps]

And top of all this, my personal estimate is this: This is, in the end, a "morally justified" topic.
Is it morally justified to poop into someones mouth because you think it's funny and as some kind of torture or not?
As such, we do not reach a conclusion. Yes, it's evil in D&D terms but the discussion that follows from that basically comes down where YOU stand morally and ethically on this. I think we all agree it`s evil, we might disagree if Vaarsuvius taking part is breaking character or not, but what we make of all this and if we think if it's ok or not is nothing we can decide from within the D&D aligment-framework.

Or am I wrong and this can be discussed from within D&D?


I believe you're wrong, for no other reason that someone can believe that it's morally justified and still not find it funny, and conversely, one can believe it morally unjustified and still find it funny. Indeed, while people tend to find much of Belkar's behaviour funny, I hope that few people find his actions to be morally justified in many instances. (And yes, I know that posters here have argued to the contrary, but my hope is that those who defend Belkar's actions are either being tongue-in-cheek or just contrarian. Note that while posters here might argue that Yuk-Yuk had if coming for shooting the cat, Belkar can't argue that he's justified for that reason, because he doesn't know that it was the kolbold who shot Mr. Scruffy.)

[oppyu]

Note that while posters here might argue that Yuk-Yuk had if coming for shooting the cat, Belkar can't argue that he's justified for that reason, because he doesn't know that it was the kolbold who shot Mr. Scruffy.)
:vaarsuvius: The reaction is to be expected: the kobold was Nale's lackey, and was responsible for your feline's injuries during the recent skirmish. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0835.html)

[Math_Mage]

Killing small animals - 500 points on malev-o-meter. A horrific act with no moral justification.
Forcing someone to consume cat faeces - 50 points on malev-o-meter. Schoolyard bullying.

500 > 50. There's your equation :smalltongue:

How about one that makes sense? MURDER is 'a horrific act with no moral justification'. I refuse to place animal harm on the same moral level.

---

Of course, all this debate about levels of harm is rather subsumed by the larger issues. Given that the Order is mentally dominating a known hostile force and associate of Nale, what's a cat feces incident or two along the way compared to the question of whether or not they're gonna kill him when his usefulness or novelty wears out? I just object to this "He shot Mr. Scruffy, no punishment is too great" line of reasoning some people seem to embrace.

[oppyu]

How about one that makes sense? MURDER is 'a horrific act with no moral justification'. I refuse to place animal harm on the same moral level.

---

Of course, all this debate about levels of harm is rather subsumed by the larger issues. Given that the Order is mentally dominating a known hostile force and associate of Nale, what's a cat feces incident or two along the way compared to the question of whether or not they're gonna kill him when his usefulness or novelty wears out? I just object to this "He shot Mr. Scruffy, no punishment is too great" line of reasoning some people seem to embrace.
Of course, animal harm isn't on the same level as murder. It's much, much worse. People have the intelligence to try and themselves, small animals are basically helpless. It's like punching a baby.

[Kish]

Note that while posters here might argue that Yuk-Yuk had if coming for shooting the cat, Belkar can't argue that he's justified for that reason, because he doesn't know that it was the kolbold who shot Mr. Scruffy.)
What are you talking (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0835.html) about?

[Math_Mage]

Of course, animal harm isn't on the same level as murder. It's much, much worse. People have the intelligence to try and themselves, small animals are basically helpless. It's like punching a baby.

...

I'm going to try and banish from my mind the idea that someone, somewhere, might actually think this is a valid moral concept.

[-Sentinel-]

Killing small animals - 500 points on malev-o-meter. A horrific act with no moral justification.
Laying mouse traps is 'horrific', really?


Forcing someone to consume cat faeces - 50 points on malev-o-meter. Schoolyard bullying.
Wow, you sure went to a pretty tough school. Did the bullies enslave people with mind control spells, too?


Of course, animal harm isn't on the same level as murder. It's much, much worse. People have the intelligence to try and themselves, small animals are basically helpless. It's like punching a baby.
...

what is this i don't even


Of course, all this debate about levels of harm is rather subsumed by the larger issues. Given that the Order is mentally dominating a known hostile force and associate of Nale, what's a cat feces incident or two along the way compared to the question of whether or not they're gonna kill him when his usefulness or novelty wears out?
That's a very good point. Unless the kobold breaks free and they must kill him in self-defense, the only options they have are keeping him enslaved indefinitely (which is evil), sending him to his death (also evil), or offing him in cold blood (also evil). I just don't see how this can end without me losing a lot of sympathy for the Order.

[oppyu]

The internet needs an 'I'm joking' button. Killing small animals is still much worse than forcing someone to eat cat poo though.

[Goosefeather]

The internet needs an 'I'm joking' button. Killing small animals is still much worse than forcing someone to eat cat poo though.

A sarcasm font is long overdue. On the other hand, it's not that hard to include a winking/tongue-out smiley :smalltongue:

[TheSummoner]

:smallconfused:

:smallconfused::smallconfused::smallconfused:

I... fail to see how this position could ever be reasonably held.

I would say that the existence of people who would do something like harm a small animal for fun is reason in and of itself to say that in general, hurting an animal is worse than hurting a person.

See... Animals tend to just do what they do in order to survive. An animal kills to eat. An animal kills to defend itself or its young. People on the other hand. Well... (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreBastards)

[Goosefeather]

I would say that the existence of people who would do something like harm a small animal for fun is reason in and of itself to say that in general, hurting an animal is worse than hurting a person.

See... Animals tend to just do what they do in order to survive. An animal kills to eat. An animal kills to defend itself or its young. People on the other hand. Well, people are bastards (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreBastards).

I dunno, I reckon harming a small human for fun is still worse than harming a small animal. And there are unfortunately plenty of people who do the former, as well.

Some animals can be vindictive as well - see dolphins and chimps, for example. (Coincidentally, those two are common examples of the more 'intelligent' animals. That's quite interesting, actually).

But anyway, given that the original post I was responding to wasn't entirely serious anyway, this is probably wandering rather off-topic! :smalltongue:

[Smolder]

While I understand that everyone has a different tolerance when it comes to gross-out humor, I would point out that people have eaten worse things on Survivor. Real people, in the real world, on national television, voluntarily, not a fictitious kobold, off-screen, in a 2-D web comic.

:smallsmile:

[-Sentinel-]

I would say that the existence of people who would do something like harm a small animal for fun is reason in and of itself to say that in general, hurting an animal is worse than hurting a person.

See... Animals tend to just do what they do in order to survive. An animal kills to eat. An animal kills to defend itself or its young. People on the other hand. Well... (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreBastards)
So... the existence of a few sadistic humans is enough to make it worse to harm an animal than any human?

Also, what Goosefeather said: some animals are cruel. Cats (including, presumably, Mr Scruffy) are known to play with their prey before killing it.

[SSGW Priest]

I don't see it as Belkar torturing the kolbold as much as I see Scruffy getting revenge for being shot by the kolbold. How many poops equates to an arrow through the ribs? Now if it was Belkar pooping, then I'd say the joke is old.

Evil yes, less evil than simply killing the dominated kolbold? No. Remember, as disgusting as this is for the kolbold, he's still breathing. If anything, Scruffy's mistreatment of the kolbold is less evil than Haley's.

[FujinAkari]

Also, what Goosefeather said: some animals are cruel. Cats (including, presumably, Mr Scruffy) are known to play with their prey before killing it.

Not wild cats. Only domesticated cats do that, and that is because we humans have set up a system where they aren't taught to hunt.

See, cats have a natural instinct to stalk their prey, but not one to kill it. A wild cat is taught to kill by its mother, but a domestic cat often is not (since the kitten is given away, or the mother doesn't know either.) This leads to cats naturally chasing down animals but not knowing what to do once they catch them, leading to a misperception that the cat is torturing its prey.

[Math_Mage]

That's a very good point. Unless the kobold breaks free and they must kill him in self-defense, the only options they have are keeping him enslaved indefinitely (which is evil), sending him to his death (also evil), or offing him in cold blood (also evil). I just don't see how this can end without me losing a lot of sympathy for the Order.

They can dump him somewhere, and then kill him iff (not a typo) he comes after them again. We'd have to work a lot harder to put the Order in a situation where NO alternative is Good.


While I understand that everyone has a different tolerance when it comes to gross-out humor, I would point out that people have eaten worse things on Survivor. Real people, in the real world, on national television, voluntarily, not a fictitious kobold, off-screen, in a 2-D web comic.

:smallsmile:

I would turn that around. There's a massive difference between volunteering to do something unpleasant for money and being forced to do something unpleasant for the sadistic enjoyment of your controller/s. Just as there's a difference between hunting wild rabbits for food and hunting domesticated cats because hurting small animals is fun.

[oppyu]

They can dump him somewhere, and then kill him iff (not a typo) he comes after them again. We'd have to work a lot harder to put the Order in a situation where NO alternative is Good.

That may be the good option, but it's also incredibly stupid. Why release a mid to high level enemy who tried to kill you before the neutral wizard enslaved him, and the evil halfling let his cat poop in his mouth? It's all well and good to say they'll kill him if he attacks, but what if he gets lucky and takes one or two of them out before dying?

[Cavenskull]

That may be the good option, but it's also incredibly stupid. Why release a mid to high level enemy who tried to kill you before the neutral wizard enslaved him, and the evil halfling let his cat poop in his mouth? It's all well and good to say they'll kill him if he attacks, but what if he gets lucky and takes one or two of them out before dying?
Is it as stupid as not executing all the members of the Linear Guild? Yukyuk was just one member of the Linear Guild--and even then he was only in it for the money. The Order of the Stick has had multiple opportunities to execute Nale, Sabine, and Thog, yet they did not do so--even though they knew for a fact that the Linear Guild is out to get them personally.

In the grand scheme of things, worrying about Yukyuk's revenge is nothing.

[oppyu]

Is it as stupid as not executing all the members of the Linear Guild? Yukyuk was just one member of the Linear Guild--and even then he was only in it for the money. The Order of the Stick has had multiple opportunities to execute Nale, Sabine, and Thog, yet they did not do so--even though they knew for a fact that the Linear Guild is out to get them personally.

In the grand scheme of things, worrying about Yukyuk's revenge is nothing.
Both times they had the opportunity to execute Nale, Sabine and Thog, they instead chose to leave them in prison. The second time, they left the trio in super-secret anti-magic prison, but unfortunately Tsukiko inadvertently busted them out.

They don't have a super-secret anti-magic prison to keep Yukyuk in.

[Math_Mage]

That may be the good option, but it's also incredibly stupid. Why release a mid to high level enemy who tried to kill you before the neutral wizard enslaved him, and the evil halfling let his cat poop in his mouth? It's all well and good to say they'll kill him if he attacks, but what if he gets lucky and takes one or two of them out before dying?

I'd like to turn that around as well. No, it's not the safest option, but it's the Good option. Good involves some risk. Turn the other cheek, you might get slapped again.

And yes, it would have been safer had they NOT gone through the whole litterbox episode, since YY was not initially a personal enemy of the Order. That merely tells us that Belkar and V are not considering letting YY go, and I'm not prepared to adopt their standards of morality.

[Cavenskull]

Both times they had the opportunity to execute Nale, Sabine and Thog, they instead chose to leave them in prison. The second time, they left the trio in super-secret anti-magic prison, but unfortunately Tsukiko inadvertently busted them out.

They don't have a super-secret anti-magic prison to keep Yukyuk in.

No, but they do have the luxury of leaving him just about anywhere they'd like. And really, is revenge that big a concern? I'm not sure I'd be too eager to get vengeance on a party of six, when one of the party members has already demonstrated the ability to utterly dominate me. Yeah, the cat poop sucks, but if they let me live, I think I'd be willing to call it even. Why risk getting tortured again and/or killed over such a comparatively petty matter?

[MyNameIsSecret]

And really, is revenge that big a concern? I'm not sure I'd be too eager to get vengeance on a party of six, when one of the party members has already demonstrated the ability to utterly dominate me. Yeah, the cat poop sucks, but if they let me live, I think I'd be willing to call it even. Why risk getting tortured again and/or killed over such a comparatively petty matter?

I could see Yukyuk going after the Order - he's been tortured and humiliated, and I could safely bet on him rashly going after the OotS for revenge. However, we don't know enough about his character to accurately gauge what his reaction would be. I could just as easily see him skulk off and never be heard from again.

[MyNameIsSecret]

--Oops, double post--

[oppyu]

No, but they do have the luxury of leaving him just about anywhere they'd like. And really, is revenge that big a concern? I'm not sure I'd be too eager to get vengeance on a party of six, when one of the party members has already demonstrated the ability to utterly dominate me. Yeah, the cat poop sucks, but if they let me live, I think I'd be willing to call it even. Why risk getting tortured again and/or killed over such a comparatively petty matter?
Sure, by himself he stands to lose. But imagine if he pops up while the Order of the Stick is facing the Linear Guild, or Xykon. Hell, he can just wait until a member is separated from the rest of the party and sneak attack then. Maybe Roy or Belkar could fight him off 1v1, but Elan? Vaarsuvius could be in danger if s/he's overwhelmed before s/he can cast Dominate Person.

[Killer Angel]

The internet needs an 'I'm joking' button. Killing small animals is still much worse than forcing someone to eat cat poo though.

Is still much worse than mentally enslaving someone, forcing him to eat cat's poo multiple times (and probably planning to kill him anyway)?

[Themrys]

Killing small animals - 500 points on malev-o-meter. A horrific act with no moral justification.
Forcing someone to consume cat faeces - 50 points on malev-o-meter. Schoolyard bullying.

500 > 50. There's your equation :smalltongue:

You're being ironic, aren't you?

Because, if you're not a strict vegetarian, then welcome on the evil end of the alignment scale.

That reminds me...Haley is evil! She shot and ate the birds Vaarsuvius sent her!

[Yora]

Is it just me?
No. It was unfunny but over the top the first time. After that it's only unfunny. :smallannoyed:

[Slayn82]

While in the OOTS universe things may be different, older kobold ecology entries state that: a) they are actually extreme omnivores:

"Kobolds are omnivores with no scruples about what or who they eat. They can digest bark, dirt, leather, eggshells, or their own younger siblings if they're desperate enough."

Cat poop centainly fails to be disgunting enough in this context. Also, for consideration, REAL PEOPLE actually do eat in someplaces things like entire dead birds, innards and... what you are arguing as disgusting included, preserved during months inside sacks made of seal skin and fat.

A second aspect is that Kobolds usually prefer exile or slavery to execution. And becoming a kobold slave is far from nice.

Overall, i agree the joke makes sense from Belkar's point of view, from V's is a fitting punishment to the enemy for his actions, and from the Kobold point of view, as disgusting as it is, probably is not much more agravating than being mind controled in the first place.

Anyway, the Kobold is already enacting his revenge, right now, on pannel, small as it is, something that would not be possible if Belkar simply killed him. So, the jokes very existence also has this purpose in the overall storytelling.

spoiler ahead
By taking the carpet, he is preventing the magic item of being put in a bag of holding, allowing the Linear Guild to scry on the rune on it.

[Tectonic Robot]

I think what Belkar and V is doing is gross and un-amusing, and that the kobold really doesn't deserve it.

[Tectonic Robot]

I think what Belkar and V is doing is gross and un-amusing, and that the kobold really doesn't deserve it.

[TheSummoner]

You're being ironic, aren't you?

Because, if you're not a strict vegetarian, then welcome on the evil end of the alignment scale.

That reminds me...Haley is evil! She shot and ate the birds Vaarsuvius sent her!

*eyeroll* There's a world of difference between someone killing an animal to eat it and someone killing an animal because they're a sadistic monster who gets enjoyment out of it.

[Smolder]

A quick search on Youtube revealed thousands of videos of animals eating feces, some with millions of hits. It would appear that many animals do it, and many people are entertained by it. Note the laughter of observers in the background of every video.

A gorilla eating its own poop. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oh0OGko3TjA)
An elephant eats poop (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2y_LEbdEVE)
A dog eating its own poop. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nuUpR1fdf0)
Monkey peeing in his own mouth (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DBuk91phkI)

Yes, it's disgusting. It's also funny. Jokes can be both.

[Sethram]

My pet theory specifically for this thread is that the kobold is actually going to turn out to be a coprophile and will thank Belkar for the food. Jokes aside, even if this comic isn't based on a game with players and DMs, Belkar certainly reminds me of one of those players who has to try and do the most obscene and lewd things possible in the game world.

[martianmister]

My pet theory specifically for this thread is that the kobold is actually going to turn out to be a coprophile and will thank Belkar for the food.

Then kill him anyway and take his kitty as a food source. Yes, that kitty is very good at its job...

[Math_Mage]

Sure, by himself he stands to lose. But imagine if he pops up while the Order of the Stick is facing the Linear Guild, or Xykon. Hell, he can just wait until a member is separated from the rest of the party and sneak attack then. Maybe Roy or Belkar could fight him off 1v1, but Elan? Vaarsuvius could be in danger if s/he's overwhelmed before s/he can cast Dominate Person.

Of course, he was about as likely as Leeky Windstaff and Pompeii to bother with a Round 2 until the cat incident. So again, this only shows that Belkar and V don't account for the possibility that the kobold might end up free, which has nothing to do with what a Good person should do.

[Milknut]

One set of pixels poops in other set of pixel's mouth. Welcome to the internet.

In all seriousness, I have zero problem with the joke because... well, it's a joke. Is turning your enemy into a litterbox wrong? Yes. But Belkar has done heinous things for laughs before. I don't feel like this is a bigger deal than his many murders.

Is murder funny? If we answer honestly, we have to say "sometimes." Why? Now there's a rabbit hole...

[QuakeIV]

Personally I think that regardless of anything else, whether Belkar would actually do it, whether or not its evil, whether or not its worse than death, I don't particularly care for seeing it.

I'll be honest I don't give two ****s about whether or not something makes sense if it grosses me out too much.

[suzaliscious]

Meh.

I've seen worse. Belkar's done worse. Any particular reason feeding a guard Evisceratus' intestines is more palatable than this? I laughed pretty hard at that one.

Just chill out, guys. It's a joke, Rich didn't take into account how sensitive some of you are. They can't all be gold. *shrug*

[Gift Jeraff]

I find it both amusing (especially considering Yukyuk's name) and disgusting. And not just disgusting as in gross, but disgusting as in "Belkar and V deserve to suffer horribly for this despicable act."

[raymundo]

Have I missed something or was the litterbox-"joke" used merely two times?

First the actual littering and second Belkar asking for V, because Mr Scruffy has to poop again. That is enough to think of the joke as being "worn out"?


Although I can relate to those who don't think it's funny, that is kinda excessive.

[Killer Angel]

One set of pixels poops in other set of pixel's mouth. Welcome to the internet.

In all seriousness, I have zero problem with the joke because... well, it's a joke. Is turning your enemy into a litterbox wrong? Yes. But Belkar has done heinous things for laughs before. I don't feel like this is a bigger deal than his many murders.


Kinda missing the point.
Peoples complaining are perfectly aware that it's a fictional story regardin pixeled characters. Many of them are fine with the terrible virtual slaughter represented by Familicide.
It's the kind of this particular joke they don't like.
Kinda many D&D players that got no problems slaying whole tribes of sentient beings, but have sever issues if the DM says the word "rape", even without entering in details and only to quickly describe the background of an orchish invasion.

[pirsq]

His name is Yukyuk, and he's being used as a toilet. How is that not hilarious?

Sure, the joke's been repeated a couple of times, but it's only taking up 1 panel. You need a panel of unrelated humour every now and then to keep it interesting.

[Winter]

Question: Do you think Belkar Jumped the Shark with the scene we were discussing here?

[Kish]

No, you're thinking of O-Chul. Belkar doesn't jump sharks.

[Smolder]

Perhaps Tarquin will decide to allow Malack to forcefeed Nale a handful of cat poop. That way, Tarquin saves his son's life, and Malack will have the solace of knowing that he inflicted a Fate Worse Than Death upon the murderer of three of his children. Problem solved.

[Winter]

No, you're thinking of O-Chul. Belkar doesn't jump sharks.

If O-Chul jumps a shark, it's not Jumping a Shark but a Crowning Moment of Awesome*.

* Oh my... I acutally sank to the level of the O-Chul-Chuck-Norris-Meme. I guess I'll leave now.

[Eigenclass]

I wonder, where was all this moral outrage when Belkar was feeding a human another human's intestines (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0781.html)? In addition to the forced cannibalism aspect, you do realize that intestines are full of poop when freshly removed (like, when you're butchering an animal)?

The things that happen in this comic are sometimes horrifying - like Miko being devoured alive by creatues that she at least genuinely loved. The Resistance was crushed utterly in their moment of triumph and wiped out to the last man, child, and woman that isn't Niu. Do we want Redcloak gone from the strip because of that?

I think what it comes down to is a matter of artistic vision, and how Mr. The Giant wants to tell this story. I don't think Art is beholden to people's sensibilities. Artistically, Belkar makes for good storytelling, because we accept that he's Chaotic Evil and give him a bit more moral free reign than we would Roy.

I think, within the context of the story, Belkar's conduct lately is a lot more distanced from Evil than it has been in the past. He's still got some rough edges, but now he's only inflicting brutal torment on people that aren't innocent, and starting to sort of "get the point" of helping people (like Ganjji and Enor) in certain situations.

What he's doing now is still completely wrong and morally indefensible if he was a real character for whom we had squeaky-clean expectations, but I like that he's slowly starting to wander towards anti-hero territory, and we need to cut him some slack and give him some credit.

Maybe there's remorse in his future - who knows!

[martianmister]

The things that happen in this comic are sometimes horrifying - like Miko being devoured alive by creatues that she at least genuinely loved.
:eek:
THOSE EVIL EQUINES, HOW DARE THEY! :smallannoyed::smallmad::smallfurious::furious:

[Winter]

I wonder, where was all this moral outrage when Belkar was feeding a human another human's intestines (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0781.html)?

It's no moral outrage.
I think the story has gone beyond "Meh" in this aspect as Belkar has crossed a line from "overly brutal but still somewhat acceptable" to "simply childish and gross". I'm for removing the cause of this "Meh" and that means to removal Belkar as quickly as possibe as I want the story to focus on the dramatic things that are going on with the characters and less on childish cat-poop-eating (that is completely ignored by Durkon and backed by Vaarsuvius against how the characters have been established so far so the Belkar-Fans can have their giggles).

[MarchiMcFly]

I was amused by the joke!
Plus, I don't think it can be considered torture, it's more of a prank to a professional killer who tried to kill V and Scruffy...doesn't seem Evil to me (and to Durkon, who was just disgusted).
But the fact that the Belkster want to continue it, that's the torture...nothing strange there, it's Belkar after all!:smallbiggrin:

[snafu]

The levels of morality haven't changed. The levels of torture haven't changed.

The level of taste has changed.

Poor taste, perhaps, but that at least is in character for Belkar. Where I'm with you is that it is indeed vulgar, and it is petty, and it lacks style. We have some magnificent villains here. Xykon reduced a room full of noble knights united in a cause to a squabbling, infighting mess, gleefully cutting each other down, until the last one standing recovered her mind and saw what she had done, and it was beautiful. V took out apocalyptic vengeance on dragonkind, retribution on a colossal scale using epic spells of mass destruction, and gloried in the power. Tarquin, well, we all fell in love with his dramatic style in evil overlordship.

Belkar is evil, but it seems he lacks ambition, he lacks the vision to be a real villain. Perhaps that's the effect of Roy upon him. It's been his story throughout; a little monster with the potential to break the kilonazi scale and become a true menace to the world, but kept down by those around him. Restrained and restricted, kept under control, and so for lack of anything better to do he takes the opportunity to inflict small, childish torments on a single helpless enemy.

[Themrys]

Belkar is evil, but it seems he lacks ambition, he lacks the vision to be a real villain. Perhaps that's the effect of Roy upon him. It's been his story throughout; a little monster with the potential to break the kilonazi scale and become a true menace to the world, but kept down by those around him. Restrained and restricted, kept under control, and so for lack of anything better to do he takes the opportunity to inflict small, childish torments on a single helpless enemy.

Is it less evil just because the number of his victims is smaller?
After all, "evil" is a moral judgement and is usually made in view of the intention...and Belkar clearly wants to kill lots and lots of people, torture lots of people, use lots of skulls as furniture...etc.
Does the fact that he is not able to do all this because Roy keeps an eye on him really change how evil Belkar is?

If Belkar could be kept by a prison, would the fact that he wouldn't kill any more people mean that he has become neutral?

My guess is that he would not become a proper villain even with Roy's influence removed. He would just continue to kill for fun, on a larger scale, but without a vision or plan. And it would get him killed, sooner or later.

[Omergideon]

I wonder, where was all this moral outrage when Belkar was feeding a human another human's intestines (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0781.html)? In addition to the forced cannibalism aspect, you do realize that intestines are full of poop when freshly removed (like, when you're butchering an animal)?


I was truly outraged by the behaviour, in the sense I thought it repugnant, unnecessary and vulgar. however it was far more off panel than the Kobold thing so people adopt a more "out of sight, out of mind" attitude I would guess. Maybe.

I may be a killjoy, but at least I'm consistent with it eh? :smallwink:


More realistically I would say, and repeat what was said earlier, it is the pettiness and banality of this act that distinguishes it from other acts of "grandiose" evil in the comic. That it it seems to serve no purpose for Belkar than mere amusement. As horrific as Tarquin, Redcloak and Xykon may act they often have more than simple amusement as their goal for the worst actions. Belkar being so.......petty is what may get some people where the slaughter of the resistance does not. Maybe.

[Math_Mage]

I was truly outraged by the behaviour, in the sense I thought it repugnant, unnecessary and vulgar. however it was far more off panel than the Kobold thing so people adopt a more "out of sight, out of mind" attitude I would guess. Maybe.

Yeah, I did my best to ignore that bit of burlesque. YY, however, is still with the party. Makes him harder to ignore.

And yeah, the issue here is not so much that Belkar's Evil acts are especially Evil, but more that they stopped being amusing (it's even in the thread title). Given that the main redeeming feature of this sociopathic murdering midget in the eyes of the audience is that his Evil is played for laughs, well...

[Paseo H]

Well, it's about time that Belkar's comedic sociopathy feels more sociopathic and less comedic.

That's why people 'admire' some Complete Monsters, because they're witty and amusing (example: The Joker.)

I'm not saying that Belkar is a Complete Monster, though he probably would be without the Order holding him back.