Complete Warrior = a Collective a second opinion?

[Red_Dog]

Hello all ^^. Being inspired by a very recent thread about applications of Elusive Target, I wanted to start a community discussion about taking a second look at Complete Warrior book and finding more uses and build concepts for things that seemed like waste of paper or situational at best...

Now with this in mind, I will contribute myself, but I am mostly asking for input to see what could be done with feats and classes not being used...

I've been trying to come up with a great start as Elusive Target was for me to start this thread... but I got very little out heh.

So I guess let's begin with simple stuff!

Sun Set School
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Everyone knows how bad this one usually is except of course the Dimension Attack bit[Flash of the Sunset].

So what could we use it for?

Use it with warlock!
>I am not sure if this CAN be done, but I though that Eldritch Blast is a range touch attack and ergo could possible work? My first instinct is NO, however because its a touch attack, I though why not to ask? Alternatively, achieving similar effect with Bestow Curse spell-like ability

Use it with Horizon Tripper!
>He only needs ranks in Skills to get in the class, and while one point of BAB will hurt, he can still somewhat keep up. At lvl 11 he gets the Dimension door every d4 rounds so Sun Set School could be picked up at lvl9 or something. Drawbacks are 2 dread Monk lvls, a point of BAB and waiting until lvl11...

Use it with Elocator!
>Elocator by his/her nature has bad BAB, so 2 monk levels won't hurt AS much. Elocator has tons of transportation tricks but the most important advantage is that his own teleport-attack features are terrible so with this feat one only needs few levels of elocator to not loose bunch of manifester levels. Draw backs are simple... Dimension Hop destroys this idea as a Superior mechanic that lets you to essentially full attack after porting... and you get this at lvl1 thru Hidden Talent... Great....

Use it with sword sage!
>The most obvious use for last... From early levels swordsage has ways to get teleportation but only until very late it becomes a swift action. This effectively lets you use first to teleports to make one and two[second port is a move action, no reason you can't spend your standard action on an attack OR a first teleport to make two attacks at two different people!] attacks before the swift portation comes in play. Besides 2 dread monk levels, there is virtually no reason not to take advantage of this ^^
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So... what does everyone think about this? ^^ Also I guess we could do it in rules FAQ style, so anyone can start with their discussion suggestion and some uses for it!^^

Hope this interests some people who like/not HATE Complete Warrior ^^

[Elric VIII]

Sun Set School
===========================================>
Everyone knows how bad this one usually is except of course the Dimension Attack bit[Flash of the Sunset].

So what could we use it for?

Use it with warlock!
>I am not sure if this CAN be done, but I though that Eldritch Blast is a range touch attack and ergo could possible work? My first instinct is NO, however because its a touch attack, I though why not to ask? Alternatively, achieving similar effect with Bestow Curse spell-like ability

The Eldritch Claws feat (Dr358) would let you make claws as a free action and use them in the attack that triggers.



Use it with Horizon Tripper!
>He only needs ranks in Skills to get in the class, and while one point of BAB will hurt, he can still somewhat keep up. At lvl 11 he gets the Dimension door every d4 rounds so Sun Set School could be picked up at lvl9 or something. Drawbacks are 2 dread Monk lvls, a point of BAB and waiting until lvl11...

Passive Way Monk combat style (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm) will allow you to pick up Combat Expertise and Improved Trip. Both without the Int prereqs, so it helps you focus on Str, Con, and Dex.



Use it with Elocator!
>Elocator by his/her nature has bad BAB, so 2 monk levels won't hurt AS much. Elocator has tons of transportation tricks but the most important advantage is that his own teleport-attack features are terrible so with this feat one only needs few levels of elocator to not loose bunch of manifester levels. Draw backs are simple... Dimension Hop destroys this idea as a Superior mechanic that lets you to essentially full attack after porting... and you get this at lvl1 thru Hidden Talent... Great....

It's not a bad class at all. Plus, actual manifester levels let you make the most out of your teleporting. Dimension Hop is swift action, Dimension Slide is move action, and Dimension Door (or non-augmented Dimension Slide) is standard action. Throw in Snap Kick for some real fun (penalties from the same source do not stack, so it's only -2 no matter how many extra attacks it gives you).

Also, from the Monk fighting styles you can get Dodge and Mobility to meet prereqs.


Use it with sword sage!
>The most obvious use for last... From early levels swordsage has ways to get teleportation but only until very late it becomes a swift action. This effectively lets you use first to teleports to make one and two[second port is a move action, no reason you can't spend your standard action on an attack OR a first teleport to make two attacks at two different people!] attacks before the swift portation comes in play. Besides 2 dread monk levels, there is virtually no reason not to take advantage of this ^^

Monk 2 is hardly a dead level on melee characters. It is actually quite a good class (average HD, 4 skill points from a good list, 3 good saves, 3 bonus feats) as long as you only take 2 levels of it.

Assassin's Stance comes in really handy here because you can teleport into flanking positions. Child of Shadow also triggers off the movement, so that's a nice perk as well.

Once you get up to the swift action teleport you can use all 3 on the first round, one on the second round (full round action to refresh, leaves your swift open, and does not have the Warblade restriction of not initiating maneuvers while refreshing), and 2 on the 3rd round. Works better with Shadow Pouncing, but Sun School maximizes the ILs.

[Red_Dog]

Thanks man! You could also suggest some stuff that comes to mind! ^^


The Eldritch Claws feat (Dr358) would let you make claws as a free action and use them in the attack that triggers.
So I am guessing its a Le No on Eldritch Blast? Well I would guess as much ^^


Once you get up to the swift action teleport you can use all 3 on the first round, one on the second round (full round action to refresh, leaves your swift open, and does not have the Warblade restriction of not initiating maneuvers while refreshing), and 2 on the 3rd round. Works better with Shadow Pouncing, but Sun School maximizes the ILs.

***EDIT. I looked up ToB. It requires a standard action to initiate most strike maneuvers.
***There is only one question I have. Could Sword Sage use attack maneuvers with every Attack he gets from Setting Sun school[feat]? basically you get an attack action from it, could Maneuver strikes be used in conjunction?

This than makes an AMAZING sage that basically does 3 maneuver strikes per round and next round refreshes/rearranges everything with a full round action, than swift action ports and uses another Strike Maneuver!

This could be GOLD!!! ^^ If this is true, I sooo want one of these to play now! ^^******

NOW a better question is How one deals great damage without using maneuvers? Boosts are still fair game, but they take the precious swift action away which is bad. Could one initiate BullRush as an attack? Would make for a fun "Dimension Crusher" build ^^... all silliness aside... what would open do for damage to at least stay relevant in the face of ... well everyone but the gimpiest of all...

P.S. also good catch on variant monk. I for some reason though he could do it without variants. But getting Improved Trip WITHOUT the dread Combat expertise on lvl2 is rather amazing... Thx man ^^
***EDIT P.S.2 I also go what you you meant for elocator... That is actually quite Golden as it means 2 to 3 attacks at full bonus. By the nature of most Psi-classes BAB is low so usually it results in BAB 15 below. This however means that all 3 of the portaion attacks can happen before 15 BAB even acquired. I honestly might drastically change a set of NPCs from warlocks to Elocators... as this seems freaking great ^^ Also same question, how would one deal damage? What powers boost your attacks as I am still familiarizing myself with psionics[do not have all powers in memory ^^]***

[Hazzardevil]

So I am guessing its a Le No on Eldritch Blast? Well I would guess as much ^^

Sorry doesn't work, Eldritch Blast is an SLA used as a standard action, not an attack action. A lot of warlock homebrew would allow this to work though.



***EDIT. I looked up ToB. It requires a standard action to initiate most strike maneuvers.
***There is only one question I have. Could Sword Sage use attack maneuvers with every Attack he gets from Setting Sun school[feat]? basically you get an attack action from it, could Maneuver strikes be used in conjunction?

No for the same reasons the warlock can't, maneuvers and Eldritch blasts that activate as a standard action, not an attack action.
This than makes an AMAZING sage that basically does 3 maneuver strikes per round and next round refreshes/rearranges everything with a full round action, than swift action ports and uses another Strike Maneuver!

This could be GOLD!!! ^^ If this is true, I sooo want one of these to play now! ^^******


NOW a better question is How one deals great damage without using maneuvers? Boosts are still fair game, but they take the precious swift action away which is bad. Could one initiate BullRush as an attack? Would make for a fun "Dimension Crusher" build ^^... all silliness aside... what would open do for damage to at least stay relevant in the face of ... well everyone but the gimpiest of all...
The same way none TOB characters do. Power Attacking. The problem is, you won't have the best BAB in the world.

P.S. also good catch on variant monk.

[Red_Dog]

=>Hazzardevil

Thx on confirming the warlock things man! ^^


The same way none TOB characters do. Power Attacking. The problem is, you won't have the best BAB in the world.

The issue is that while you can PA, you are not Frenzied Berserker nor can you use Shock Trooper.

I looked thru some boosts (I could be missing stuff), and so far can't find a sizable damage increase... One can always cross-bread with ze old Dungeon Crusher and than just pop out of shadows slam people into walls and than do that again [As far as I understand BulRushing, Tripping and Disarming CAN be done in place of an attack]. Or pick up Improved trip[thru Monk as it was pointed out] and trip away...

So any other ideas on dealing extra damage [at least around 10-15 to at least begin to matter]?

Other discussion ideas are still just as welcomed ^^

P.S. Sword-sage actually can pseudo do all three attacks using the Desert Wind teleport maneuver... However it stops from doing the cool cycle of fullround refreshing-swift teleport-attack that Elric VIII showed. Could do for time being and later swapped I guess ^^

P.S.2. Also totally appreciate the Input! ^^

[Elric VIII]

WRT Eldritch Claws: It's a feat for Warlocks that lets them turn their EB into a set of claws as a free action. They deal damage equal to EB damage + unarmed Strike damage + Str, although they require a normal attack, not a touch attack.

[Answerer]

The Beast Strike feat can then allow your Unarmed Strike damage to add your Claw damage, so you get:

Unarmed Strike = Unarmed Strike + Claw = Unarmed Strike + (Unarmed Strike + Eldritch Blast)

Yes, that is Unarmed Strike twice. No, there's no stacking rule that would prevent this, due to the wording on the feats.

But anyway, yeah, Complete Warrior is almost an entire waste of a book. Lots of the options are somehow even worse than many of the poorest options in Core.

[Red_Dog]

Elric VIII =>

Thx ^^ I generally stay away from Dragon Mag... but to people who use it, this can be very useful ^^ Plus warlock is feat starved, 2 levels of monk while WILL delay the DD, will give him some variation room...

Answerer =>

Interesting trick... Couldn't find the feat you referred to. I am assuming its 3.0 or Dragon Mag?

Also, yes yes I know the book's faults. But that's not why I am bringing this up = P I generally want to find obscure uses for these things simply because why not? ^^ Any martial class would benefit from this second look so the class can expand building options ^^ Hell the sun setting chool feat seems to be useful to even T3 frontrunners like Sword Sage. I am sure any tricks that we can collectively find, will help most classes fighting in melee ^^

[Elric VIII]

Beast Strike is Dr355. Although I don't really understand the stigma that Dragon Magazine has. True, some things arent' very balanced, but that's true of many things found in splatbooks as well. That's why we have DMs, to adjudicate on a case-by-case basis.

[Particle_Man]

Well I assume you know about things like Hexblade + ACF (PHB II) + Paladin of Tyranny as Mr. Debuff (there was also a great stunning weapon from I think DMG II but it gots nerfed a bit in MIC), and the Rogue/Swashbuckler + that feat from Complete Scoundrel that lets one keep getting sneak attack as one advances as a Swashbuckler as a +19 BAB character with 10d6 SA at level 20.

And there was that one trick to optimize the Samurai, of all things, into an intimidation-monster.

[TheTick]

Rogue/Swashbuckler + that feat from Complete Scoundrel that lets one keep getting sneak attack as one advances as a Swashbuckler as a +19 BAB character with 10d6 SA at level 20.

Daring Outlaw.

[Snowbluff]

Depending on how you read Aptitude Weapon, you can apply the Weapon Style feats to anything you have the enhancement one. :smallbiggrin:

[Snowbluff]

Depending on how you read Aptitude Weapon, you can apply the Weapon Style feats to anything you have the enhancement one. :smallbiggrin:

[Red_Dog]

Thx for responses guys! ^^

=>Particle_Man


Well I assume you know about things like Hexblade + ACF (PHB II) + Paladin of Tyranny as Mr. Debuff (there was also a great stunning weapon from I think DMG II but it gots nerfed a bit in MIC), and the Rogue/Swashbuckler + that feat from Complete Scoundrel that lets one keep getting sneak attack as one advances as a Swashbuckler as a +19 BAB character with 10d6 SA at level 20.

And there was that one trick to optimize the Samurai, of all things, into an intimidation-monster.

I am quite aware of Hexblade ^^. I love that class, however I wanted to save that for later as a lot of people are tired of me discussing Hexblades as it is hehe ^^

Samurai... is unfortunately outshined by Scarlet Corsair. They both get this ability to AoE Intimidate at the same level, only corsair's effect lasts the number of rounds equal to Cha mod. [To get into Scarlet COrsair, one simply needs full BAB and one lvl dip of a Sneak Attacking Fighter Variant]

Swashbuckler on the other hand we can discuss[we can discuss anything of course, if some one wants to pick Hexblade or even samurai, sure I'm game]...

Swashbuckler
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Its hard to discuss the whole class without its own thread... but we can Try ^^ I guess keeping in mind, that this is mostly for new "combo" uses and not redeeming the class's tier ^^.

=>Ambiguous Dodge Bonus. If the DM counts it as replacing dodge, than Swashbuckler can easily get Elusive Target. To further save on feats, he can try again convincing the DM to let him get Mobility armor[Person_man mentioned it in the other thread. Its from MiC]

=>Ok social skills set & 4 points per round. Self explanatory...

=>Improved Flanking could work with Vexing Flanker well to stack a nice +6 to hit.

=>Of course daring outlaw that mentioned is almost mandatory. However since few feats need BAB+6 to qualify and you get a feat at lvl6... sometimes its best to move back the rouge dip. However one of the most powerful feats> Staggering strike is almost impossible to get by lvl6 when you only mix Rouge and Swashbuckler
>Also another note. By sacrificing one point of BAB and taking Rouge 1 & Something "sneak attacky 1" [with Variant Fighter no sacrificing BAB!], You can get an extra sneak attack d6 over all. [Fighter's hit die is also better]
>Another note could be made, that if rouge comes as a starting class, a human able learner suddenly gains the benefit of a great skill list.

=>A note to be made on ACFs... Swashbuckler get very little love in this department.
>Oddly enough, the potentially best ACF from Complete Mage [Arcane Stunt Swift action SLA that usually gives mobility] replaces... Grace. Normally you would LOVE to replace it. however, without Grace, there is no Daring Outlaw. It would take some DM bribing to let this one slide.
>Drow ACF[NOTE! You do not need to be a drow!, same applies to drow variant fighter and if you are going for extra d6 of Sneak Attack, than also take that feature. Free +2 I and bonus vs flatfooted? yes plz!] is... meh. Its nice. but so is Acrobatic Charge.
>PHBII ACF is... well if you are going to dual wield, than yeah, grab it. It scales a bit faster and does not need a dreaded target like dodge bonus does.

=>Int synergy... sigh... While you can pump int to score some extra damage it won't be great on a daring outlaw... this ability shines like a lighting bolt when Factotum takes Swashbuckler 3 dip. Than it suddenly becomes gold. Likewise, Psychic Rouge and Lurk can attempt to benefit from this as well as their power point pool is tied to Int. Free Weapon Finesse will help them greatly too.

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That's all I got on Swashbuckler... Not much.. Input is appreciated as well as any other suggestions! ^^

P.S. So... no one came up with a good damage dealing technique while using just one attack?[referring to the Setting Sun School feat from earlier]

[Metahuman1]

Put a persisted blade spell up (Friendlily caster, UMD check or some manner of Dm house ruling/homebrew/general shenanigans.) and he's basically got the +6 flanking bonus where ever he goes.


Juice up youf bluff check like mad and take a few levels of beguiler to feint as a swift action, meaning if either your already on top of your target when you open up your full attack or have Pounce, say form a 1 lvl dip in Barbarian using either Frenzy form cityscape for extra dex or UA Whirling Frenzy for an extra attack, you can have a +8 to Hit (+10 on Frenzy.) +4 to damage, against a flat footed target, while your getting sneak attacks.

[absolmorph]

The dodge bonus does not count as the Dodge feat, RAW. There are other sources of dodge bonus than the feat, regardless of the class feature having an almost identical mechanic.

The Int bonus to damage is capped by your class level, so a Swashbuckler 3/Factotum 17 can only get a +3 to damage from it.

[Particle_Man]

The Int bonus to damage is capped by your class level, so a Swashbuckler 3/Factotum 17 can only get a +3 to damage from it.

Now that leads to a weird thought. Is there a way to get a Swashbuckler 20 with an Int score of 50, for the +20 Int bonus?

[Red_Dog]

The dodge bonus does not count as the Dodge feat, RAW. There are other sources of dodge bonus than the feat, regardless of the class feature having an almost identical mechanic.

The Int bonus to damage is capped by your class level, so a Swashbuckler 3/Factotum 17 can only get a +3 to damage from it.

Yeah, the dodge bonus is technically no dodge feat. You are correct, hence I mentioned to ask a DM on this matter. But regardless I guess. ^^

Also you are wrong=>

She applies her Int bonus (if any) as bonus on damage rolls (in addition any str bonus she may have) with any light weapon, as well as any other weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse... If Target is immune to precision damage, its immune to Insightful Strike... Swashbuckler can not use this ability while wearing medium or heavy armor and carrying medium or heavier load
Almost quote.

I read it 3 times. No where does it says that Int to Dmg caps by the swashbuckler level. I am not sure where are you getting this than 0_o. As far as I am aware there is no cap, and swashbuckler 3 is a great dip... The rest of the class is what we should discuss as its near beyond repair heh ^^.

[Metahuman1]

Yeah, the dodge bonus is technically no dodge feat. You are correct, hence I mentioned to ask a DM on this matter. But regardless I guess. ^^

Also you are wrong=>

Almost quote.

I read it 3 times. No where does it says that Int to Dmg caps by the swashbuckler level. I am not sure where are you getting this than 0_o. As far as I am aware there is no cap, and swashbuckler 3 is a great dip... The rest of the class is what we should discuss as its near beyond repair heh ^^.

I think he's thinking of the duelist PrC from the Dungeonmasters guide. There fluff section even says there called "Swashbucklers." and they get in Int to Armor Class up too there class level.

[FMArthur]

I don't think three Swashbuckler levels are a great dip on a Factotum and I honestly get the feeling that people who recommend it haven't played it.

You are significantly delaying awesome class features pretty much no matter where you take the Swashbuckler levels (and cut off 7th level spells/Cunning Brilliance entirely), your spellcasting goes from decent to embarrassing (both in spell level and caster level, which you can't take Practiced Spellcaster to remedy), and you're poorer at other class features you already have.

In exchange for basically setting 3 levels on fire, you improve your damage with weak or exotic weapons. Weapon damage is not something a Factotum really needs much help with, and in general is something that anyone can excel at by just spending feats anyway.

[Snowbluff]

I don't think three Swashbuckler levels are a great dip on a Factotum and I honestly get the feeling that people who recommend it haven't played it.

You are significantly delaying awesome class features pretty much no matter where you take the Swashbuckler levels (and cut off 7th level spells/Cunning Brilliance entirely), your spellcasting goes from decent to embarrassing (both in spell level and caster level, which you can't take Practiced Spellcaster to remedy), and you're poorer at other class features you already have.

In exchange for basically setting 3 levels on fire, you improve your damage with weak or exotic weapons. Weapon damage is not something a Factotum really needs much help with, and in general is something that anyone can excel at by just spending feats anyway.

How does 5 in Iaijutsu Master sound, then? I'd like to here your opinion. :smallsmile:

[Shyftir]

I once created a Swashbuckler/Rogue/Invisible Blade/Master Thrower build.

It doesn't stand up to caster or anything but its pretty solid T3. In the upper teens your throwing like 12 daggers, with int bonus dmg vs. an almost always flat-footed opponent, per round. Can we say "fan of knives."

The main thing was using swashbuckler and rogue to quickly qualify for the prestige classes and maxing bluff to get great use out of Invisible Blade's free action feint. Late game all loot was spent on Tomes to boost stats.

[FMArthur]

How does 5 in Iaijutsu Master sound, then? I'd like to here your opinion. :smallsmile:

If you've got the charisma for it, the damage is certainly excellent, but you've still got to invest in ways to ensure it, which is nontrivial IIRC. It's a trade with gains and losses, but I'd rather take more Factotum levels if I was already a Factotum than devote 5 levels and 2 otherwise useless feats to it. You're much, much less effective at your Factotum gimmicks due to the hits you take to level, skill points, and feats to the point where some of your features would lose their relevance for your ECL.

Really I'd rather do it with something more charisma-focused, more martially inclined and less dependent on its class level, like a Crusader (maybe with a Marshal dip). I certainly do like Iaijutsu Master, it's just that Iaijutsu Focus isn't nearly exclusive to Factotums anyway.

[Red_Dog]

FMArthur=>

I've statted and played Factotums before. The things is => Factotum is like crack. You start taking levels in it and before you know it, all your feats are forever and ever Font of Inspiration, your remaining levels are Factotum and you try to do anything you can to retrain old feats into more FoI = ]

Jokes aside=>
Yes 1-20 Factotum is amazing. Yes factotums don't "need" melee damage more than they have already. However, if one wants to simply add more synergy to the class, Swashbuckler 3 is a great way to do it IMO. Also keep in mind, that swashbuckler 3 can ACF for an arcane stunt that will also be tied to your Int! Its really not as bad as you make it IMO. Making arguments about loosing higher level spells is moot. Why? Because they lead to a simple logical answer=> 1-20lvlWizard[or any other T1]. Everyone who is NOT playing a T1 is by default has less growth room. And yes Factotum will loose higher level casting. However, IMO in a 10-15 lvl game, with a swashy Dip you'll see more front line action. Of course its up to everyone's taste.
**Also you can add your abnormally high Int to dmg thru normal Factotum tricks by burning FoI. With the dip, you get double Int to dmg**

Shyftir=>
That is an interesting build... Insightful strike does NOT have a range on its pseudo precision damage... Sure the sneak attack won't work but Int bonus... Palm throw will Specifically work with this shenaneganery as its not Str bonus and has no range at which it can work.

Ha, that is actually quite nice.

Although If I had to do it, I'd go with Lurk or Psychic rouge + Swashy 3 + Master Thrower. Both of those classes get power point synergy for better Int. In reality one does not need to finish Master thrower. ONE level in it nets you the Palm Throw & quick draw. If one wants more BAB, you can intermingle MT's levels with the main class. If one doesn't, only 4 out of 20 lvls will not be psychic ^^! And that is not bad at all!

[dextercorvia]

I'm afraid there is no way to apply Insightful Strike at range (except maybe bloodstorm blade). Insightful Strike applies to light weapons and finesseable weapons. Both of these are melee designations. If you throw a dagger, it is a thrown weapon, rather than a light weapon.

[Answerer]

I'm... not sure where that comes from? I mean, the dagger is listed in the Light Weapons section, and I don't see anything that suggests it becomes anything but a Light Weapon when you throw it. It is still treated as Light for the purposes of TWF penalties, for instance. Do you have a cite on that?

[dextercorvia]

I'm... not sure where that comes from? I mean, the dagger is listed in the Light Weapons section, and I don't see anything that suggests it becomes anything but a Light Weapon when you throw it. It is still treated as Light for the purposes of TWF penalties, for instance. Do you have a cite on that?

Its in the title.


Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons

This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon’s size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.

When you throw it, it isn't considered a melee weapon, therefore, not a light or finesseable one. Daggers specifically are treated as two different kinds of weapons, Light if you use them in melee, and Thrown if you throw them. TWF is the exception to this, which does treat them as light, for the purpose of calculating the penalty only. Note that they have to tell you how to treat darts, etc., since they are thrown only weapons.

[Answerer]

Its in the title.

When you throw it, it isn't considered a melee weapon, therefore, not a light or finesseable one. Daggers specifically are treated as two different kinds of weapons, Light if you use them in melee, and Thrown if you throw them. TWF is the exception to this, which does treat them as light, for the purpose of calculating the penalty only. Note that they have to tell you how to treat darts, etc., since they are thrown only weapons.
I don't buy it. The dagger is still a "melee weapon" even when not being used in melee. There is nothing there that suggests it changes, and the special exception for TWF is not actually in the rules anywhere, which suggests that a special exception is not necessary in the case of the dagger.

For darts, yes, it is.

[Flickerdart]

You can throw a dagger, or a greatsword, or a box of puppies. That doesn't make any of them stop being melee weapons.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Totemist2 nets you the option of Blink Shirt bound to Totem for unlimited move-action teleportation.

[dextercorvia]

You can throw a dagger, or a greatsword, or a box of puppies. That doesn't make any of them stop being melee weapons.

But does it count as a light weapon when thrown? My reasoning may be off, but I was sure that I had seen otherwise.

[Hazzardevil]

But does it count as a light weapon when thrown? My reasoning may be off, but I was sure that I had seen otherwise.

It is a light weapon, I've seen it written by the sage somewhere I think.

[Hazzardevil]

But does it count as a light weapon when thrown? My reasoning may be off, but I was sure that I had seen otherwise.

It is a light weapon, I've seen it written by the sage somewhere I think.

[dextercorvia]

I stand, if not connected, at least uncertain. Carry on then.

[Swiftest]

Here are a few things off the top of my head from Complete Warrior that I haven't seen mentioned here:

Shock Trooper and Combat Brute are two fairly solid feats are common in Ubercharger builds. Heedless Charge (Shock Trooper maneuver) is fantastic for anyone who will be trying to maximize his charging damage, which is a lot of melee.

Lightning Mace Style is used in some fairly simple infinite damage loops I think.

Warshaper is a fairly powerful 4 level prc when combined with changeling if you look at it RAW -- since you could have one of every natural attack at maximum size all the time as well as crit immunity and permanent fast healing with only 4 levels.

War Chanter is one of 2 (I think) prestige classes that let bards use 2 songs at once making them fairly common in many IC optimization builds.

Zen Archer (for which CW is not the only 3.5 source I think) is used in many cleric archer type builds.

Arcane Strike isn't too bad on the right gish type for one big melee hit.

Thousands of builds use Karmic Strike along with a certain dude's Gambit to wreak havoc with AoO's.

I've seen far too many awesome Hulking Hurler throwing builds to dismiss the awesomeness of that prc.

Personally I always liked the fluff and feel to the book. Most of the feats are marginal, sure, but there are certainly some gems.

[Red_Dog]

Thank you everyone for replying! ^^

Swiftest=>

I was thinking of stuff that people don't use ^^ But thank you for posting! ^^
================================================>
So... a new gimmick on the agenda! ^^

Favorite Power Attack

The feat is basically another multiplier that stacks with leap attack and combat brute. So ideas on how to use it? I got one for now, but IMO its pretty neat ^^

=> Stack Favorite enemies! Unearthed Arcana gives several class variants that all gain Favorite enemy by trading something for it
Barbarian trades Rage, which means he can still get pounce!!!
Paladin trades Lay on Hands, Turning, Remove disease. Turning is nice and can be used, but mostly this doesn't seem like its worth it as it needs feat sinks, remove disease is horrible, but it prevents trading it for Curse-braking. Of well I guess.
Druid looses proficiencies & wildshape. Again, tough trade but you still have spells.

To do this well, IMO a base for a build should be either Druid or Paladin. Druid is still T1, so discussing him again seems pointless ^^. A Paladin of Freedom on the other hand could start with Barbarian 1/Ranger 1 and than Continue with being Paladin. This gives 3 favorite enemies of the bat. By lvl12(unfortunately this is the soonest you can get this AND shock trooper AND Leap Attack because of a blasted +4 BAB requirement) you could Power Attack at a Much Higher modifier[x3 x2 = x5 by D&D math, or am I wrong?] that's normally inaccessible for all but Frenzied Berserkers. With 3 Favorite enemies you should be able to cover most enemies that you will face in the campaign.

Also, a 3 level start of Barbarian/Ranger/Paladin could be a good start for a straight fighter as he/she will have enough bonus feats to get everything needed to abuse both Leap Attack AND Combat Brute and rack up Serius multipliers! ^^

As a bonus question, I am not quite sure how will these favorite enemies stack? Would they have 3 independent tracks of stacking? Or will they all stack in one big track giving you +6 on your first pick by lvl3?O_o
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So that's my gimmick for today! ^^ All new stuff is as usual welcomed for discussion as well ^^