[3.5] Tripping Half Dragon Build Advice

[Gullara]

Alright, so first off I'm gonna mention that this build is far from optimized. I'm sure that'll become clear in a moment, but I just wanted to mention that it isn't my intent to be optimized. That said, this character is for a campaign that'll ideally get as far level 20, so I want to stay relevant.

So we start on level 6. My first levels look like this.

Half Silver Dragon LA
Half Silver Dragon LA
1: Fighter
2: Fighter
3: Dragon Samurai
4: Dragon Samurai

A couple notes. My DM cuts the Half dragon LA down to 2 and is allowing LA buyoff. He also makes the BAB requirements for Dragon Samurai 2 rather than 5 if you're a half dragon. Oh, and he gave Dragon Samurai full BAB.

Okay, so the what I'm going for right now is basically throwing around breath weapons, and when I can't do that I'll use my spiked chain for tripping. Feats look like this. (I intend to get the feat that lets you use your breath weapon ever 1d4 round on level 6 when I qualify.)

1 Flaw: Stand Still
1 Flaw: Power Attack
1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain)
1 Fighter: Combat Expertise
2 Fighter: Improved Trip
3: (Nothing as of yet)

And my attributes are as follows. I'm playing a dwarf and the point buy is 32.

Str: 24
Dex: 10
Con: 21
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Cha: 8

So, right now I'm looking for a second PrC to go into, or perhaps a base class. I was looking through my books, but couldn't really find anything that appealed to me. All books are allowed except for Dragon Magazines, though I am avoiding ToB for my own reasons. So can anyone help me out? Both general advice and PrC suggestions are welcome.

[Aegis013]

I know you said you're avoiding ToB for your own reasons, but a dip in crusader as your 9th level can net you Thicket of Blades, which is excellent for trip-focused characters. So much so that I think it's still worth mentioning.

You could replace the two levels of fighter with two levels of Wolf Totem Barbarian. You'll lose combat expertise (which, iirc, can't be used simultaneously with power attack, and power is just better anyway), but you'll gain fast movement, rage, etc.

If your DM would allow it, you could also trade out fast movement for Pounce (which is awesome) via Lion Spirit Totem ACF, but that's not especially important for tripping.

Also, look into Karmic Strike and Rolibar's Gambit feats.

[Gullara]

Well, the main reason I'm avoiding ToB is because I don't really understand it, and I'm trying to avoid a certain amount of complexity. (I'm rather new to DnD.) That said, I could probably handle a dip. I do have one question though. How can I qualify for Thicket of Blades with only a single level of Crusader?

As for the Barbarian levels, I had completely forgotten about that. That said, the DM is allowing feat retraining and allowing us to retrain prerequisites. So the question is, is pounce/fast movement and rage 1/day better than another fighter feat in the near future? Either way I get rid of Combat Expertise.

And as for those two feats, I'll have to consider them. They might be hard to qualify for, however.

[Rhaegar14]

Well, the main reason I'm avoiding ToB is because I don't really understand it, and I'm trying to avoid a certain amount of complexity. (I'm rather new to DnD.) That said, I could probably handle a dip. I do have one question though. How can I qualify for Thicket of Blades with only a single level of Crusader?

How dip and multiclass friendly it is is one of the things that is beautiful about ToB. Much like a spellcaster, the level of maneuver you can take is based on your initiator level; you can take 1st-level maneuvers at 1st level, 2nd-level at 3rd, 3rd-level at 5th, etc.

However, you add half of your total levels in all other classes to your martial adept level to determine your effective initiator level. So, if you take Crusader 1 at level 9, you have 8 levels in other classes, for +4 to your initiator level. So you have a total initiator level of 5, which allows you to take 3rd-level maneuvers.

[Gullara]

Ah, I gotcha. That's pretty nice. I might just have to do that dip then. *nodnod*

[Averis Vol]

a very typical feat for trippers that bears mention is knockdown. deal 10 dmg get a free trip attempt, theres also whirlwind+trip paired with it. you have the dex and if you plan on going back into fighter, the feats can be had within a few levels. take a look into the MiC, theres some items in there that will allow you to lay out your breath weapon and still full round those near you (belt of battle i think?)

hope some of this helps.

[mattie_p]

So, if you take Crusader 1 at level 9, you have 8 levels in other classes, for +4 to your initiator level. So you have a total initiator level of 5, which allows you to take 3rd-level maneuvers.

This is a true statement. However, Thicket of Blades has a prerequisite of one devoted spirit maneuver. Therefore you must ensure that you take at least one Devoted Spirit maneuver among all those learned, technically prior to learning Thicket of Blades, and one without a prerequisite of "one Devoted Spirit Maneuver". Thus, you can't learn Thicket of Blades and Defensive rebuke alone from the Devoted Spirit discipline, using each to qualify for the other.

[Gullara]

a very typical feat for trippers that bears mention is knockdown. deal 10 dmg get a free trip attempt, theres also whirlwind+trip paired with it. you have the dex and if you plan on going back into fighter, the feats can be had within a few levels. take a look into the MiC, theres some items in there that will allow you to lay out your breath weapon and still full round those near you (belt of battle i think?)

hope some of this helps.

Ah, cool, thanks. I'll look into those. Especially Knockdown.


This is a true statement. However, Thicket of Blades has a prerequisite of one devoted spirit maneuver. Therefore you must ensure that you take at least one Devoted Spirit maneuver among all those learned, technically prior to learning Thicket of Blades, and one without a prerequisite of "one Devoted Spirit Maneuver". Thus, you can't learn Thicket of Blades and Defensive rebuke alone from the Devoted Spirit discipline, using each to qualify for the other.

Right, I'll keep that in mind.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I just want to note that Wolf Totem Barbarians gives you Improved Trip as a bonus feat without needing Combat expertise (which also means you no longer need Int 13) and best part is that since both Wolf totem and Spirit Lion Totem ACF trade different things you can combine them :smallbiggrin:

[Rhaegar14]

This is a true statement. However, Thicket of Blades has a prerequisite of one devoted spirit maneuver. Therefore you must ensure that you take at least one Devoted Spirit maneuver among all those learned, technically prior to learning Thicket of Blades, and one without a prerequisite of "one Devoted Spirit Maneuver". Thus, you can't learn Thicket of Blades and Defensive rebuke alone from the Devoted Spirit discipline, using each to qualify for the other.

But you can pick up Foehammer, which is Mountain Hammer but for the Devoted Spirit discipline, and is a fantastic maneuver in its own right.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I know you said you're avoiding ToB for your own reasons, but a dip in crusader as your 9th level can net you Thicket of Blades, which is excellent for trip-focused characters. So much so that I think it's still worth mentioning.

*snip*

Unfortunately, this isn't true. In all of the ToB classes, when you get down to the stance section in their initial class descriptions, it specifies that you may choose a 1st level stance, not any stance that you qualify for.

So you'd have to dip Crusader 2 to get Thicket of Blades.

[Dusk Eclipse]

It is a debated topic weather the "A crusader starts playing with a level 1 stance" applies to character who multiclass into the class later, personally I don't think that it applies for such characters as they are definitely not starting to play; but you and your DM may think and rule otherwise.

Having said that, crusader is NEVER a bad dip for any melee character in my opinion, so a two level dip is not a bad idea per se.

[Venser]

Hello :)

I once played a trip character. I don't know much about dragon samurai class(honestly never heard of it) but I can give you some advice on the feat selection.

IMO, drop the samurai and just go with the fighter for bonus feats. I would choose:
Combat expertise
Improved Trip
Whirlwind attack
Something to help you get a better reach
Something to help you gain some bonuses while tripping

And, if you are going to go above level 20, multiclass with rogue and take sneak attack of opportunity :)

[Gullara]

I just want to note that Wolf Totem Barbarians gives you Improved Trip as a bonus feat without needing Combat expertise (which also means you no longer need Int 13) and best part is that since both Wolf totem and Spirit Lion Totem ACF trade different things you can combine them :smallbiggrin:

That was actually mentioned previously, but it's good advice none the less. However, I tihnk I'll stick with fighter levels. Just because having more Int and being a fighter fit the fluff a lot better, and since I can retrain combat expertise and get something better the first time I level up. (Provided I don't need it for any prereqs later.)


But you can pick up Foehammer, which is Mountain Hammer but for the Devoted Spirit discipline, and is a fantastic maneuver in its own right.

I'll have to look into that one... as soon as I can get at my books.


Unfortunately, this isn't true. In all of the ToB classes, when you get down to the stance section in their initial class descriptions, it specifies that you may choose a 1st level stance, not any stance that you qualify for.

So you'd have to dip Crusader 2 to get Thicket of Blades.


It is a debated topic weather the "A crusader starts playing with a level 1 stance" applies to character who multiclass into the class later, personally I don't think that it applies for such characters as they are definitely not starting to play; but you and your DM may think and rule otherwise.

Having said that, crusader is NEVER a bad dip for any melee character in my opinion, so a two level dip is not a bad idea per se.

Ah well, something to talk to the DM about. I'm sure we can work something out.


Hello :)

I once played a trip character. I don't know much about dragon samurai class(honestly never heard of it) but I can give you some advice on the feat selection.

IMO, drop the samurai and just go with the fighter for bonus feats. I would choose:
Combat expertise
Improved Trip
Whirlwind attack
Something to help you get a better reach
Something to help you gain some bonuses while tripping

And, if you are going to go above level 20, multiclass with rogue and take sneak attack of opportunity :)

Dragon Samurai is in the Miniatures Handbook by the way. Basically, all it really does for me is add 1d8 breath weapon damage per level. This stacks with my existing half dragon breath weapon. So right off it'd be doing 8d8 damage and could potentially get as high as 16d8 damage.

The main reason I'm taking it is it gives me some damage to throw around in addition to tripping. Not to mention that my DM gave it full BAB rather than 3/4. It also is pretty nice for fluff reasons.

As for dropping Dragon Samurai, eh, I dunno. While Fighter feats would probably be more practical, I think I'll still stick with Dragon Samurai. Perhaps I'll take fighter levels for the rest, though.

[Dusk Eclipse]

How attached are you to the fluff of classes as written? Because you can easily refluff your barbarian levels to a more civilized upbringing.

Rage: Instead of Foaming at the mouth and growling, you simply focus so much on your enemies and how to kill them that you push out other thoughts from your head.

Pounce: Pure speed attained through dedication and training.

Improved Trip: Combat pragmatism or simply being in tune with the flow and eb of the battle allowing you to attack your enemies in a manner that they loose their balance under your well timed and controlled hits.

Also note that if you retrain combat expertise you also loose access to improved trip as the former is a pre-requisite of the latter.

[Aegis013]

Unfortunately, this isn't true. In all of the ToB classes, when you get down to the stance section in their initial class descriptions, it specifies that you may choose a 1st level stance, not any stance that you qualify for.

So you'd have to dip Crusader 2 to get Thicket of Blades.

How about Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades as your 9th level feat?

[Gullara]

How attached are you to the fluff of classes as written? Because you can easily refluff your barbarian levels to a more civilized upbringing.

Rage: Instead of Foaming at the mouth and growling, you simply focus so much on your enemies and how to kill them that you push out other thoughts from your head.

Pounce: Pure speed attained through dedication and training.

Improved Trip: Combat pragmatism or simply being in tune with the flow and eb of the battle allowing you to attack your enemies in a manner that they loose their balance under your well timed and controlled hits.

Also note that if you retrain combat expertise you also loose access to improved trip as the former is a pre-requisite of the latter.

I'm not all that attached to the fluff as written. I suppose I just haven't been thinking all that creatively lately. I'll have to reconsider. Seems like a good choice anyway.

As for the retraining, my DM is allowing us to retrain prereqs and keep what we needed them for. Aka, he's being rather nice. :smalltongue:


How about Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades as your 9th level feat?

Hrm, I'm a bit feat starved actually, so that might not be the best plan. I'd be better off getting it through the splash or nothing.

[mattie_p]

It is a debated topic weather the "A crusader starts playing with a level 1 stance" applies to character who multiclass into the class later, personally I don't think that it applies for such characters as they are definitely not starting to play; but you and your DM may think and rule otherwise.

Having said that, crusader is NEVER a bad dip for any melee character in my opinion, so a two level dip is not a bad idea per se.

I'll agree here with Dusk Eclipse. Where two rule sources conflict, the primary source trumps it. And within a book, the specific rule trumps the general rule. The primary source on multiclassing, regardless of class, is the players handbook, which has a specific order of things that you do when you gain a level in any class. The last step of that is class features. The multiclass paragraph talks about specific class features that modify the general rule of gaining an ability (turn undead, uncanny dodge, and how they stack). Likewise, the multiclass paragraphs in ToB talks specifically about the initiator level, which trumps the general rule of gaining 1st level maneuvers/stances at crusader 1.