Spellcasting Rogue

[Dairuga]

So, allright. I am trying to introduce D&D to a friend, and when I asked what kind of character he would like to play; he said he didn't know. Because, there's so much out there, and he does not have the faintest clue of what he can choose. So when I asked him about character concepts he enjoyed, he said he'd want to use magic, and sneak around a lot.

So my question is; What kind of classes could cover that? Essentially, a rogue / Wizard hybrid. Granted, yes, I already know of the Spellthief class, but is there anything else out there? As far as I understood, Spellthieves never get very good at spells, and to be effective, there has to be spellcasters around them for them to steal spells from. And Unseen Seer requiers you to have prior spellcasting classes that US advances.

So aside from those two, are there any other classes that meshes Rogue's sneaking, hiding and possibly sneak attacking skills with arcane magic?

[Rhaegar14]

Well, the obvious answer would be Arcane Trickster. His more competent friend, the Daggerspell Mage, is also an option I would point to.

Edit: In fact, the latter option can be put on top of Spellthief, since it only requires +1d6 sneak attack. Take the feat Master Spellthief out of Complete Scoundrel to allow all arcane caster levels to stack with Spellthief for Steal Spell and so the character can cast in light armor. Then play a Humanoid with the Human subtype (either strictly Human, or depending on DM interpretation, anything half-human) and take the Able Learner feat at 1st level, which would essentially make all Rogue class skills class skills for whatever class the character takes levels in.

[Pilo]

Spellthief(CS) or Beguiler(PHB2) or Bard(Core).

Not exactly what you want but Mystic ranger may fit too.

[Dairuga]

Wonderful suggestions, to the both of you. I will look into beguiler; as well as arcane trickster. That, and daggerspell mage, sounds really promising.

[Rhaegar14]

A note on the Daggerspell Mage suggestion; if you want to do the Master Spellthief and Able Learner thing, the build will be feat-starved if flaws are not in play, since the PrC is built around TWF and additionally requires a mostly-useless feat (Weapon Focus).

[Rejusu]

Factotum. It's not as arcane focused as some as the other suggestions, but it makes a better rogue than a rogue and gets spells as spell-like abilities. They also make great party faces, especially if you play a changeling and grab the 1st Changeling rogue substitution level.

[Greymane]

Might I also recommend the Psychic Rogue? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) You can just say it's magic. It's sneaky and has 'magic' right from the get-go.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Psychic Rogue is a good option.

Your prestige classes are basically Spellwarp Sniper, Daggerspell Mage, and Arcane Trickster, and I suggest no more than two of the three (with Arcane Trickster being one of them). Sad as this sounds, Spellthief is probably your easiest entry method for any of them (a Spellthief that takes Practiced Spellcaster at 6th level has an Arcane Caster level of 5th, which qualifies for Daggerspell Mage; however, such a character wouldn't be able to enter into Arcane Trickster or Spellwarp Sniper until 12th level, and being that the former is a 10/10 caster level and full Sneak Attack progressing PrC, it might be worth it to be the "ugly duckling" for the first part of his career just to get into that one early).

Shadowcasters (from Tome of Magic) don't qualify for Arcane Trickster, but they come close (they don't cast third-level "arcane" spells, but instead cast mysteries), and Arcane Trickster can advance Shadowcaster. You could, theoretically, go Shadowcaster 5/Assassin 5/Arcane Trickster 10 (advancing Shadowcaster), if Assassin doesn't make you queasy. Otherwise, if you'd allow it, Rogue 3/Shadowcaster 5/Arcane Trickster 10/whatever 2 would be playable (with some help given to Shadowcaster, such as bonus mysteries based on a casting stat, or just adding one to each number or something). Sneak Attack can be used with both Umbral Touch (melee touch, 5d6 damage, Slow effect on a failed save) and Arrow of Dusk (ranged touch, 2d4 damage, nonlethal), and Bolster provides a ton of temporary hit points, which can give a newer player a margin for error.

[mattie_p]

My vote, if you are just introducing him to D&D, is to give him a simple class, or classes, to start with. People being introduced to the game for the first time should probably not have to run from splatbook to splatbook in order to have a character. Just make him a multi-class rogue/wizard and be done with it.

Not optimized, you say? Yeah, that's right. It's not optimized in the sense of being a power-gamer. He's not a power-gamer, he's a beginner. And all the rules for the classes are in the same book he's going to need to learn to play the game, it'll be easier for him to learn to play the game with just one book he needs to reference.

:smallcool:You might even say that it is "optimal" for a first-timer.:smallsmile:


Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

[Rejusu]

My vote, if you are just introducing him to D&D, is to give him a simple class, or classes, to start with. People being introduced to the game for the first time should probably not have to run from splatbook to splatbook in order to have a character. Just make him a multi-class rogue/wizard and be done with it.

Not optimized, you say? Yeah, that's right. It's not optimized in the sense of being a power-gamer. He's not a power-gamer, he's a beginner. And all the rules for the classes are in the same book he's going to need to learn to play the game, it'll be easier for him to learn to play the game with just one book he needs to reference.

I agree with the sentiment but not the execution. Danger is they'll end up with something that's not just unoptimized but also fairly sub-optimal and end up bored or disheartened with how weak their character is. Danger is if you leave a new player to their own devices they'll pick something like Fighter or even... Samurai and then end up in a party of batman wizards.

So yeah I agree that you shouldn't overcomplicate it, keep the number of books to a minimum, but at least encourage them to pick a relatively decent class. Even if they have to dip into a splatbook for it.

[Particle_Man]

Beguiller is pretty compact and decent so that would be my first choice. Illusions and "sneaking around" go together rather well.

Spellthief could be good too, with a lot of help from you on the DM side. Make sure that there is usually some magic-using type for the ST to steal from. This could be fun as you can mix up the magic-using types and so the ST will be stealing new and different things on different adventures.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

A bit of multiclassing, but I'm always a fan of Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer (CM).

For a quick and dirty, I'd go Psychic Rogue or Beguiler.

[Jodah]

I would go beguiler. It is the rogue that uses magic to be more rogue-y. In all it is a good class, full casting, good selection, opportunity to learn more, good skill points, and all the appropriate skills, etc. But the character will not be a blaster.

[gorfnab]

Here's a handbook that may hold some ideas: Sneak Attacking Spellcasters (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240)

[nedz]

Warlock - its nice and easy. What ever they play will be low OP in practice. Quite good at infiltration, but you might want to introduce them to multiclassing: fold in some Rogue.

[Inferno]

I would agree with Beguiler. Besides what has been mentioned it is a great start for introducing some important concepts at the core of the game. (like the vast amount of options available to solve an encounter without direct hp damage)

[Azoth]

Sorry but for Unseen Seer it is better to go rogue1/wiz5/USS10/ArcTrick4. Practiced spellcaster negates the caster level losses entirely, you get better skill points, trapfinding, better reflex save, and it doesn't cost you another feat to be good. The armor issue is solved with the mage standard +1 mithral twilight chain shirt, or if you can survive without able learner and drop fire elf instead of human finishing with AbChamp4 instead of ArcTrick4 and relyin on extended shields and greater luminous armors.

[KutuluKultist]

finishing with AbChamp4 instead of ArcTrick4 and relyin on extended shields and greater luminous armors.

I wonder what such a character would rely on before level 17. Also, improving your AC is the least of your concerns at that level.

[Azoth]

Eh it is something to do with your low level spell slots mostly. By level 8 at the latest I am running around with +1 blurring bracers of armor and have a handful of greater mirror images prepped for the day. Gotta love a 1 in 8 chance of being successfully targeted, and a 20% miss chance even if they target the real you. Throw in a phantom battle/legion of sentinels for auto flanking in a 10'-20' radius and go stabbing people to your hearts content. Or if you didn't drop evocation use blacklight for full concealment and have some fun.

By the time of those last 4 levels anything that gives full casting is fine though considering you will most likely be running with a persisted hunters eye for atleast 6d6 extra damage, wraith strike so armor means nothing, and cloud of knives for a free action sneak attack around. If you can spare the spell slot a persisted phantom blade will give you another free attack a round. Coupled with two weapon fighting and the right buffs...well good luck to the enemy when they try to kill you.

[Keld Denar]

AbChamp4 instead of ArcTrick4 and relyin on extended shields and greater luminous armors.

Something about "luminous" and "rogue" just doing go together...

Its hard to hide when you glow in the dark brighter then Chernobyl.

[nedz]

Something about "luminous" and "rogue" just doing go together...

Its hard to hide when you glow in the dark brighter then Chernobyl.

So long as you are not playing a stealth orientated rogue it should work fine. I'm not sure how this works with the tactics stated however.

Non stealth orientated rogue may seem like an oxymoron, but it is possible - just a little unusual.

[mighty mazar]

I would just have him roll a sorc, and give him some stealthy class skills. Bogging a new player down with advanced classes will just confuse him. Usually after a few sessions he will have a better grasp on things, and know what class is best for him.

[Boci]

I would just have him roll a sorc, and give him some stealthy class skills. Bogging a new player down with advanced classes will just confuse him. Usually after a few sessions he will have a better grasp on things, and know what class is best for him.

Not true. Beguilers have a set spell list, which actually makes them easier for newer players than a sorceror.

[Azoth]

I do agree that it is odd to see a non stealth based rogue, but I have played them to effect. They tend to be tumble/trap disabling/knowledge devotion using magical glass cannons. It isn't really optimal in most instances, but can be fun to have the moment of entering a room full of enemies and being nigh untouchable while providing your own flankers for the entire room, and bringing stabbity death to all.

[MesiDoomstalker]

How about a toned done Killer Gnome Build? Less "mimic everything with super Shadow spells" and more "sneak around with more flexible spell slots and Illusion goodness." Not strictly "Spellcasting Rogue" but since he want's to sneak around a lot, and Whisper Gnomes are excellent at that plus Shadowcraft Mage makes sneaking/spell casting mix work very well. Like I said, toned down, so you'd might go Illusionist Specialist 3/Master Specialist 2/Shadowcraft Mage 5/"Rogue" 1/Rogue-Wizard Gish 9.

I'd like to have played that as my first character.

EDIT: Forgot that the build I suggested is early entry which is a bit much for a starter character. How about this:
Ilusionist 3/Master Specialist 4/Shadowcraft Mage 5/"Rogue" 1/Rogue-Wizard Gish 7

EDIT the second: Even if you don't go full Killer Gnome, consider Shadowcraft mage as it first level power gives him the ability to hide without real concelament.

[nedz]

So long as you are not playing a stealth orientated rogue it should work fine. I'm not sure how this works with the tactics stated however.

Non stealth orientated rogue may seem like an oxymoron, but it is possible - just a little unusual.I do agree that it is odd to see a non stealth based rogue, but I have played them to effect. They tend to be tumble/trap disabling/knowledge devotion using magical glass cannons. It isn't really optimal in most instances, but can be fun to have the moment of entering a room full of enemies and being nigh untouchable while providing your own flankers for the entire room, and bringing stabbity death to all.
Oh - there are plenty of options: Face being the most obvious, but things like a really good Forger or some other "technical specialist" can also work. To be good at stealth takes 4 skill points per level (Hide, Move S, Spot, Listen); these can be spent elsewhere.

How about a toned done Killer Gnome Build? Less "mimic everything with super Shadow spells" and more "sneak around with more flexible spell slots and Illusion goodness." Not strictly "Spellcasting Rogue" but since he want's to sneak around a lot, and Whisper Gnomes are excellent at that plus Shadowcraft Mage makes sneaking/spell casting mix work very well. Like I said, toned down, so you'd might go Illusionist Specialist 3/Master Specialist 2/Shadowcraft Mage 5/"Rogue" 1/Rogue-Wizard Gish 9.

I'd like to have played that as my first character.

EDIT: Forgot that the build I suggested is early entry which is a bit much for a starter character. How about this:
Ilusionist 3/Master Specialist 4/Shadowcraft Mage 5/"Rogue" 1/Rogue-Wizard Gish 7

EDIT the second: Even if you don't go full Killer Gnome, consider Shadowcraft mage as it first level power gives him the ability to hide without real concelament.

Beguiler 7 / Shadowcraft Mage 5
with Advanced Learning for Shadow Conjuration
A Beginner running an ilusionist may be too much though ?
Still 7 levels is plenty of time to learn I suppose.

[Communard]

I think you guys are overcomplicating things, there's already a spellcasting rogue and it's called a Bard :p

[Azoth]

All I have to say to that is...I will now make a perform (precusion) check to inspire you to new heights of ability while we try to infilitrate this deadly lair of death to find the magical McGuffin to save the land!

[Greyfeld85]

If you're not a stickler on the whole "magic" thing, you could have him play a Swordsage. Some Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw would make him pretty lethal, and there are plenty of maneuvers that feel very magick-y. As long as you can teach him how stances and maneuvers work, it makes things simple because you don't have to screw around with multiclassing and prestige classing to keep the character from sucking.

Though if you're looking for more roleplay heavy instead of a quick-and-dirty combat game, I'd agree with the Beguiler.

[nedz]

I'd point him at Spellthief, Warlock, Beguiler and Bard and see which he would prefer to play. Maybe just describe the four classes in general terms and see which ignites the players interest.

[Waker]

nedz has pointed out what I believe to be the best options for what your player wants.
Spellthief- Good for dealing with magical enemies. Between the ability to steal spells, resistance and absorbing hostile spells they are very arcane oriented. Downside is they are somewhat underwhelming spellcasters themselves.
Beguiler- Excellent list of skills and spells. Probably the most sneaky spellcaster available.
Bard- With a nearly unmatched skill selection, bards can do just about anything. Their flexible spell list can let them hide, heal, buff, summon or whatever.
Warlock- Weak skill list, but because many invocations can last 24-hours, you can fly, become invisible and more for the stealth-oriented player. Bonus points for being very easy for a new player, since they don't have to keep track of spells per day.

For a new player I would say let them play around with a Warlock first, but help them with the invocation choices. Beguiler would be the next best choice, since you don't have to bother with spell choices, you simply know every spell on your list and can cast spontaneously. Bard is a bit more work, since some spells are less useful than others. Spellthief is in my opinion not terribly strong and has more to worry about compared to the Warlock.

[MesiDoomstalker]

For those who are suggesting Bards, there is one issue. Bards can't be Silent. They can't apply Silent Spell to their spells and most of their class abilities require a perform check, which unless this person wants a dancing Bard, will also make sound. Not very sneaky. We made the jump from "being sneaky" to "being a rogue." I don't think this guy will complain if he isn't "Rogue-ish" if he is sufficiently sneaky. Something to think about.

[Waker]

The spells a bard casts aren't all that much more dependent on sound than those used by a Beguiler, especially if you take the Silent Spell feat and as for Bardic Performance you can use the Subsonics feat. Granted that you can't take the feat until lvl 9, but there aren't that many situations where you need to use Bardic music and need to worry about making noise, since you are most likely in a battle.

[nedz]

PH p100
Silent Spell
Special: Bards spells cannot be enhanced by this metamagic feat.

[Waker]

Curses, foiled again. Well, at least Bards aren't required to shout out the verbal components of their spells.

Originally posted by Some Other Forum Member
Quote:
Bards are required to shout out the verbal components of their spells.
Crap!

[MesiDoomstalker]

Curses, foiled again. Well, at least Bards aren't required to shout out the verbal components of their spells.

Crap!

Page 174 of Player's Handbook: Components, Verbal Section:


To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice.

Shout, no. Speak loudly enough that even a casual listener will hear with little difficulty, yes.

[Kaeso]

Essentially, a rogue / Wizard hybrid. Granted, yes, I already know of the Spellthief class, but is there anything else out there?

1. Choose bard
2. Trade bardic knowledge for bardic knack (PHB II)
3. Take "Jack of all trades feat"
4. In every skill you haven't invested your skill points in, you automatically get half your bard level as your "ranks" (thanks to the jack of all trades feat, this means all skills in existance, even the obscure ones like autohypnosis or iajutsu)
5. Be the ultimate skillmonkey while still having spellcasting up to spell level 6 and other useful goodies.
6. For added cheese take sublime chord at level 10 to gain spell casting up to spell level 9. Congratulations, you're a sorcerer with at least 10 "ranks" in every skill in existance, proficiency with light armor and bardic music.

If that's not a good enough spellcasting rogue, I don't know what is.