[PF] What's the best polearm out there?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I was thinking of makin' a phalanx fighter and I was wondering what the most effective weapon for such a character to use. They can wield two-handed spears and polearms as a one-handed weapon. Spears seem the most common for a legionnaire kind of character, but from rumors I've heard that spears aren't all that useful. What's the best option?

[Zubrowka74]

Roman troops wielded the pilum, which is not a polearm but really long javelin.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Yeah but in Pathfinder the pilum is used specifically for throwing.

[Aegis013]

I think Guisarme is the best option, reach and trip capabilities. It might not fit your intended theme too well, but you could always refluff it.

[Blyte]

if you have the feat to burn, and a fighter should, then the best polearm is the exotic fauchard. d10 18-20x2 reach, trip

[Marlowe]

Why would a PHALANX fighter use a ROMAN weapon?:smallconfused:

[Cazaril]

Is the Bohemian earspoon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemian_earspoon) ever statted out in one of the supplements? :smallbiggrin:

[Blyte]

Why would a PHALANX fighter use a ROMAN weapon?:smallconfused:

from the "phalanx formation" wiki

"Before the formation of the Roman Republic, the Romans had originally employed the phalanx themselves,[22] but gradually evolved more flexible tactics resulting in the three-line Roman legion of the middle period of the Roman Republic. The phalanx continued to be employed by the Romans as a tactic for their third military line or triarii of veteran reserve troops armed with the hastae or spear.[23] Rome would eventually conquer most of the Macedonian successor states, and the various Greek city-states and leagues. These territories were incorporated into the Roman Republic, and as these Hellenic states had ceased to exist, so did the armies which had used the traditional phalanx formation. Subsequently, troops raised from these regions by the Romans would have been equipped and fought in line on the Roman model."

[grarrrg]

Anyone else notice that there are more polearms with guy's names than any other weapon?

Bill
Lance

That is all.

[Coidzor]

Anyone else notice that there are more polearms with guy's names than any other weapon?

Bill
Lance

Bill's mostly just a coincidence/quirk of English and I think Lance is named after the weapon.

[grarrrg]

Bill's mostly just a coincidence/quirk of English and I think Lance is named after the weapon.

Either way, I vote the OP should use either one.
He should also pretend to be insane and think that his Polearm is really an intelligent item, or better yet, think it's an actual person.

"Have you met my friend Bill? No? Let me introduce you *pain*"

[Marlowe]

Then there's Edgar ("Treasured Spear") and Roger ("Glorious Lance").

Blyte, you know that passage you quoted essentially says; "Romans used Phalanx formation in their very early history, but stopped."

A Roman-themed Phalanx fighter makes as much sense as a French-themed Barbarian. Although that would be funny.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Why would a PHALANX fighter use a ROMAN weapon?:smallconfused:
The Phalanx Fighter as described in Advanced Player's Guide is meant to represent the archetype of the soldier with spear and shield who works best when working in concert with his battle-brothers, an archetype represented by both the Greek phalanx and the Roman legions. Besides, Romans don't exist on Golarion. Aztlanti did.

[Marlowe]

Well, there's the thing. Romans largely abandoned the use of spears after their first few encounters with the Gauls. Unless somebody was thinking of very early Republic or even Kingdom of Rome they don't fit the archtype at all.

[avr]

A Roman-themed Phalanx fighter makes as much sense as a French-themed Barbarian. Although that would be funny.
You've never seen the Asterix comics then?

[Bhaakon]

Yes, but then they started using spears again in the late empire.

As for the original question, guisarme for tripping or lucerne hamer for sundering are both good. I happen to think that fauchard is worth the EWP feat to get reach, trip, and a 18-20 crit range, particularly since you're going to be missing out on the 1.5x two-handed bonus to strength and power attack damage.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Well, there's the thing. Romans largely abandoned the use of spears after their first few encounters with the Gauls. Unless somebody was thinking of very early Republic or even Kingdom of Rome they don't fit the archtype at all.

Really? What weapons did they use then? Forgive me, but most of my knowledge of Romans came from RTS games. :smallredface:

[avr]

Short swords & later what D&D'd probably call a long sword. Step outside the legions proper and I expect you'd still find some spearmen around in the auxiliaries though.

[Coidzor]

I believe the late Roman Empire's Comitatenses moved back to shield and spear fighting with a backup sword of some variety though. Believe the Byzantines continued to use them for a fair bit.

[Marlowe]

You've never seen the Asterix comics then?


Those are Gauls, not Franks.:smallbiggrin:the point was it DOES make some sense and isn't completely wrong (since the French were barbaric at some point) but that it most certainly (last Thursday for example) isn't the most obvious (and the Sunday before that) or appropriate hook.


Yes, but then they started using spears again in the late empire

That they did. Although by that point they'd stopped becoming the Roman Legions in all but name and had essentially become a barbarian mercenary army.


Really? What weapons did they use then? Forgive me, but most of my knowledge of Romans came from RTS games.

It sounds as though whoever wrote the APG was thinking of Spartans and assumed everyone in the ancient world was the same. It's a bad idea to generalize since Romans were around for a thousand years (two thousand, if you count Byzantium). BUT the "classical" legionary kit is big shield, pilum (s) and gladius (shortsword). The Pila are for disrupting the enemy formation on approach (they were designed to catch in the enemies shield), the Gladius is for infighting, and the shield is for being a shield. This kit really was designed around beating Gauls.

[grarrrg]

Yes, but then they started using spears again in the late empire.

As for the original question, guisarme for tripping or lucerne hamer for sundering are both good. I happen to think that fauchard is worth the EWP feat to get reach, trip, and a 18-20 crit range, particularly since you're going to be missing out on the 1.5x two-handed bonus to strength and power attack damage.

Have you met my other friends?
Gus and Luke?

Gus Arme
Luke R. N. Hammer?

[deuxhero]

A Roman-themed Phalanx fighter makes as much sense as a French-themed Barbarian. Although that would be funny.

*drinks tea and imitates every British sterotype he knows*

What do you mean? The French are all Barbarians! Everyone knows tea is better if you...


(Sorry, it had to be)

[Coidzor]

What's this about axe-wielding French barbarians? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisca)

[Blyte]

Blyte, you know that passage you quoted essentially says; "Romans used Phalanx formation in their very early history, but stopped."

A Roman-themed Phalanx fighter makes as much sense as a French-themed Barbarian. Although that would be funny.

allow me to reiterate

from the "phalanx formation" wiki

"Before the formation of the Roman Republic, the Romans had originally employed the phalanx themselves,[22] but gradually evolved more flexible tactics resulting in the three-line Roman legion of the middle period of the Roman Republic. The phalanx continued to be employed by the Romans as a tactic for their third military line or triarii of veteran reserve troops armed with the hastae or spear.[23] Rome would eventually conquer most of the Macedonian successor states, and the various Greek city-states and leagues. These territories were incorporated into the Roman Republic, and as these Hellenic states had ceased to exist, so did the armies which had used the traditional phalanx formation. Subsequently, troops raised from these regions by the Romans would have been equipped and fought in line on the Roman model."

it actually says the Romans used the phalanx throughout their existence, but evolved and conquered those who failed to. notice that the Roman phalanx fighters also used Roman weapons, which was what I had intended for you to key in on initially, since you seemed to scoff at the notion of this.

[Marlowe]

Groan...If it even MENTIONS Triarii then it refers only to early republic. The particular troop classification went out with Marius.

The rest says ENTIRELY the reverse of what you seem to believe. Macedonia used the Phalanx and were beaten by the Romans, who were using the more flexible cohort system. Subsequently the Phalanx was considered obsolete. You've started with a false assumption and you've twisted the entire passage around it.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

This conversation has taken an odd turn. I was just wondering what a good two-handed polearm/spear was to use with the Phalanx Fighter's class features. :smallredface:

[Blyte]

Why would a PHALANX fighter use a ROMAN weapon?:smallconfused:

let me put it simply, because Roman Phalanx soldiers used Roman weapons.

[Acanous]

To be fair, the game could be set during the early stage of the roman empire.

Or not on earth at all :p

This is Pathfinder, you get *2 damage with Power Attack one-handed. *3 if you 2 hand it.

Spear is a solid option- can be used melee, can be thrown, can be set against a charge. I'd have one around just in case, it's not like you don't have the STR to carry multiple weapons.

[Coidzor]

This conversation has taken an odd turn. I was just wondering what a good two-handed polearm/spear was to use with the Phalanx Fighter's class features. :smallredface:

Something that allows tripping or disarming or gives a bonus to such.

Alternatively, if such exists, something that can be used to attack or make a grapple at distance without putting one's self at risk from the grappled creature at the user's discretion.

It's pretty simple, you want something that synergizes with whatever option you want to be using more often.

So... Do you want to trip? Do you want to disarm? Do you want to focus on maximizing your damage? Do you want to hope for doing damage and occasionally locking down something with grappling and then inevitably be disappointed when it turns out no such hypothetical tool exists as would allow for that?

Just saying "Phalanx Fighter" is useless to us.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I just want to make an effective character that uses these class features (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/phalanx-soldier). I want to make a character who takes those class features and doesn't suck in a fight. :smallredface:

[Benly]

I was just wondering what a good two-handed polearm/spear was to use with the Phalanx Fighter's class features.

Since you're asking about the class features specifically and not general strategy, there is only one that directly informs your choice of weapon: you'll want something with the brace property since the immediate-ready class feature requires it. (Coidzor seems to have misread: you don't get a bonus to trip or disarm from your class features, you only get a bonus to defend against it. You do get a bonus to bull rush and overrun, but no polearm directly improves those.)

The highest-damage braceable polearm is a lucerne hammer; the bec de corbin has better critical damage and the bardiche has a wider critical range. Use one of those if you don't want to use any special maneuvers. If you want to trip, use a halberd. If you want to disarm, use a bill. Honestly, this is all very cut-and-dried because polearms of a given class are largely minor variations on one another, so you pick the minor variation that does the thing you want.

This is all from the perspective of playing to the phalanx fighter's specific abilities. There may be better options (you may want to grapple with a mancatcher as suggested, for example) but the phalanx soldier's abilities do not play directly into them except for wearing a shield at the same time; to be honest a regular fighter would be better at that one, since he would have the benefit of Weapon Training.

edit: To be clear, the phalanx soldier's abilities bear more on the shield and on boosting adjacent allies than they do on the polearm. The bigger question might be whether or not you want a weapon with reach, which will depend largely on whether or not your allies will be in melee (and hence whether closing in or standing back keeps you adjacent to more of them).

[Archpaladin Zousha]

A lot of this boils down to the fact that most of my characters have only used swords, so I've got no clue how polearms, or even two-handed weapons in general handle in combat. :smallredface:

[Marlowe]

You will like them.

[Sir_Mopalot]

I love polearms, and the biggest difference between them that you'll find is that reach gives you far more opportunities to make attacks of opportunity. Keep a strong eye on being able to make as many as possible, and have them be as effective as possible. You won't be 4e Fighter good at it, but you will be better at MMO style "tanking" than most classes or archetypes are, so consider how you'll attract fire and how you'll then deal with it.

[Answerer]

Honestly, the difference between weapons in 3.x is really not that significant in general.

[Coidzor]

(Coidzor seems to have misread: you don't get a bonus to trip or disarm from your class features, you only get a bonus to defend against it. You do get a bonus to bull rush and overrun, but no polearm directly improves those.)


I was talking about a tripping weapon or a weapon that gave a bonus to either tripping or disarm. From the weapon.

[Snowbluff]

You should also take a few Shield Bash feats. IIRC, you can't hit adjacent targets with your polearms, and either Armor Spike or Shield Bashes should be able to help.

[Benly]

I was talking about a tripping weapon or a weapon that gave a bonus to either tripping or disarm. From the weapon.

Yeah, reading it over again after I realized you were talking about it as a general strategy thing. I made that assumption because the OP was asking repeatedly for specifically things that work with the Phalanx Soldier's class features rather than general polearm advice, and the Phalanx Soldier doesn't have any strong reason to specifically lean towards tripping or disarm that any other character lacks but does have an ability that looks like it would be if you skim it instead of reading closely. In terms of general "how does a polearm wielder play" it's reasonable advice, and the OP did ask that in a later post, so sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

You should also take a few Shield Bash feats. IIRC, you can't hit adjacent targets with your polearms, and either Armor Spike or Shield Bashes should be able to help.
Doesn't really help if I'm using a tower shield, though.

[Coidzor]

Doesn't really help if I'm using a tower shield, though.

Probably don't wanna do that though.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Probably don't wanna do that though.

Why not? Don't Phalanx Fighters get special benefits from wielding Tower Shields?

[Crasical]

I'm disappointed no-one suggested that chainsaw glaive, even thought it's not mathmatically the best option.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I'm disappointed no-one suggested that chainsaw glaive, even thought it's not mathmatically the best option.
You mean the ripsaw glaive, the gnome-invented weapon? :smallconfused:

[Crasical]

That's the one. Terrible idea, but it amuses me to no end.

[Otomodachi]

Am I reading Ready Pike correctly? It mentions nowhere in it that you must currently be wielding the weapon. Isn't this a way to change weapons as an immediate action? If so, it's very in line for what I picture when I think of this type of character fighting (having just watched Immortals (7/10) last night).

My advice is don't get too focused on the polearm. I would use a heavy shield until level 9, when you get a bonus for tower shield use (as opposed to alleviating a penalty).

Levels 1-9 I would probably use polearm/heavy shield and pick up some shield bashing feats, yes. Quick draw will be important, down the line. Once you get Shield Ally I would switch to Tower Shield. Be willing to drop your polearm and quick draw your close-fighting weapon as necessary.

Tripping is your friend, as it will keep people from getting inside the reach of your polearm.

I'm not sure who mentioned spear as a good bet, but I want to second that- being able to throw it is nice, situationally.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Am I reading Ready Pike correctly? It mentions nowhere in it that you must currently be wielding the weapon. Isn't this a way to change weapons as an immediate action? If so, it's very in line for what I picture when I think of this type of character fighting (having just watched Immortals (7/10) last night).

My advice is don't get too focused on the polearm. I would use a heavy shield until level 9, when you get a bonus for tower shield use (as opposed to alleviating a penalty).

Levels 1-9 I would probably use polearm/heavy shield and pick up some shield bashing feats, yes. Quick draw will be important, down the line. Once you get Shield Ally I would switch to Tower Shield. Be willing to drop your polearm and quick draw your close-fighting weapon as necessary.

Tripping is your friend, as it will keep people from getting inside the reach of your polearm.

I'm not sure who mentioned spear as a good bet, but I want to second that- being able to throw it is nice, situationally.
Can longspears be thrown? I thought the point of these features was the ability to weild polearms that normally require two hands with one hand.:smallconfused:

[Otomodachi]

Well, sort of. The point of these features is to be a phalanx fighter. :P

See, look, being able to wield some 2-handed weapons in one hand is good. But it's not game-breaking. It's not good enough that it's always going to be the best option. Basically, what I was trying to suggest when I mentioned the spear, was that I recommend having a moderately enchanted (compared to the rest of your weapons) spear so you have a ranged option that plays to your strengths, in this case (theoretically, still not sure if I am reading Ready Pike correctly) drawing immediately. It's not the hugest trick, but it's worth investing a little in.

Sometimes, you'll want to use two hands on your polearm. You'll do more damage that way, most likely.

Sometimes, you won't want to use a polearm at all, because the enemy has an effective way to get inside your reach and hinder you from getting away from them.

Reading through the class features yet again, my impression is still that the "one handed polearm" is maybe 25% of the repertoire for this kit. The meat, in my opinion, is using your shield to aid your party. Don't get too wrapped up in Phalanx Fighting, there's other goodies there, too. :)

[Benly]

Am I reading Ready Pike correctly? It mentions nowhere in it that you must currently be wielding the weapon. Isn't this a way to change weapons as an immediate action? If so, it's very in line for what I picture when I think of this type of character fighting (having just watched Immortals (7/10) last night).


You're not, sadly. In the context of the brace ability, "ready" refers to using a readied action to prepare an attack, normally against a charge.