Questions about the Dawn War

[Christopher K.]

Hey, my campaign's moving closer and closer to a direction in which a cult summons a demon who has been imprisoned since before the end of the Dawn War. Which gods would such a demon know of the existence of and which ones would he not? (For the record, he was sealed before Io was split, before Torog was confined to the Underdark, and before Haramathur's sacrifice)

For sure, I know that he is unaware of Vecna, Tiamat, Bahamut, and The Raven Queen, but other than that, who else was active during that time?

[hamishspence]

Didn't Asmodeus not become a deity till the very later period of the Dawn War?

There was a long gap between the death of He Who Was and the release of power to Asmodeus, allowing to make the jump from imprisoned archdevil to deity (while he killed his deity for power, the other gods denied him that power till much later).

Maybe this demon will be unaware of the death of He Who Was?

[Giggling Ghast]

Erathis, definitely. Tharizdun and Zehir. Pelor. Moradin and Avandra. Sehanine and Melora. Bane and Kord had different names back then. Corellon and Grummsh are relatively new on the scene.

[Mandrake]

I hope I don't play the devil's advocate here, but weren't the first demons created when they went ballistic over the Seed of Evil (Shard in the bottom of Elemental Chaos) which was planted there by Tharizdun?

If the term "demon" is just fluffy name for UnspeakableEvilBadass, then ignore this comment. Correct me if I'm mistaken, of course.

(Maybe check something about Obygliths or whatever their name.)

[hamishspence]

Demons are "creatures of the Abyss"

Some were spawned from the Abyss itself.
Some were elementals/primordials tainted by the energies of the Abyss and transformed (Demogorgon, for example)
The Obyriths came from another universe entirely- which they'd brought to the brink of destruction- the shard was their projection into this universe, and when Tharizdun planted it, he created a gateway, which they came through- as their universe was dying. Pazuzu and Dagon are two of the Obyriths.

Demonomicon is the source for this.

[Vknight]

He's know of Asmodeus as a Arch-Devil/God
Depending on his situation

He would not know of Demon-gorgon, Dagon, or Orcus

[Christopher K.]

I hope I don't play the devil's advocate here, but weren't the first demons created when they went ballistic over the Seed of Evil (Shard in the bottom of Elemental Chaos) which was planted there by Tharizdun?

If the term "demon" is just fluffy name for UnspeakableEvilBadass, then ignore this comment. Correct me if I'm mistaken, of course.

(Maybe check something about Obygliths or whatever their name.)

Wasn't the Seed planted during the Dawn War, though? And yeah, there are some ties to Obyriths, but this guy definitely is not one.

[Mandrake]

Demons are "creatures of the Abyss"

Some were spawned from the Abyss itself.
Some were elementals/primordials tainted by the energies of the Abyss and transformed (Demogorgon, for example)
The Obyriths came from another universe entirely- which they'd brought to the brink of destruction- the shard was their projection into this universe, and when Tharizdun planted it, he created a gateway, which they came through- as their universe was dying. Pazuzu and Dagon are two of the Obyriths.

Demonomicon is the source for this.

Monster Manual, page 52 - The birth of the Abyss. The Abyss was made when Tharizdun planted the Bad Seed into the depths of Elemental Chaos which was Primordial's playground, and he did it before the Dawn War. Out of that Abyss were the demons born. So, yes, the Demons existed even before Dawn War (so you're ok with that idea of him not knowing about some gods). But Tharizdun he'd know.

Edit: Since he created the first of them, see Demonomicon, page 7 and onwards.

[hamishspence]

Demonomicon does confirm this (and tells us why Asmodeus went evil in the first place- due to the manipulations of Pazuzu).

So logically, for him to know of Asmodeus going evil, he should know of those first few Demon Lords as well.

[Hazzardevil]

St. Cuthburt would have been around wouldn't he?
He said something about law without free will being meaningless or some such before the Pact Primeval was written.
Found the quote.
“Yes, retribution is the basis of all law.”

Heironeous and presumable Hextor were all around during the beginning when the Pact Primeval was written.

What books is the Dawn War mentioned in? I've never heard of it before.

[Mandrake]

But he doesn't need to know about what happened to Asmodeus or He Who Was - Asmodeus (in his "Fall by Pazuzu story" was GUARDING Tharizdun's prison). So, he might know of Asmodeus simply as an exarch of He Who Was, if he even paid attention to him.

So the important question is - when did your demon perish? There are certain things which he couldn't possibly know, but the rest depends on that...

[hamishspence]

St. Cuthburt would have been around wouldn't he?
He said something about law without free will being meaningless or some such before the Pact Primeval was written.
Found the quote.
“Yes, retribution is the basis of all law.”

That's 3rd ed. 4e may not have quite the same backstory- or St Cuthbert for that matter.

[DeltaEmil]

No St. Cuthberd in PoLand, nope.

[hamishspence]

Which is not to say you can't make one up, as a minor deity- perhaps someone who attained the demigod epic destiny and started accruing worshippers.

In 3rd ed's Deities & Demigods, it does say he was mortal once, after all.

[Hazzardevil]

Which is not to say you can't make one up, as a minor deity- perhaps someone who attained the demigod epic destiny and started accruing worshippers.

In 3rd ed's Deities & Demigods, it does say he was mortal once, after all.

Looks like Deities and Demigods conflict, which makes Fiendish Codex 2 the correct one because it is newer. Which means that somehow during the first creation of mortals and the Pact Primeval he became a god and then said that quote which turned him into a greater deity.

[Giggling Ghast]

There is no St. Cuthbert in default 4E. No Hextor either.


What books is the Dawn War mentioned in? I've never heard of it before.

The Dawn War was the great battle between the gods and the primordials for control of the world.

[hamishspence]

Looks like Deities and Demigods conflict, which makes Fiendish Codex 2 the correct one because it is newer.
Technically, both can be true...


Which means that somehow during the first creation of mortals and the Pact Primeval he became a god and then said that quote which turned him into a greater deity.

...like this.

Note also that the FC2 Pact Primeval account is emphasised as being just a story- which changes depending on who's telling it- it may have some truth in it, but that doesn't mean it's completely true.

He's referred to as a "godling" just before he speaks that quote- so it's not that implausible that he was one of the first mortals to ascend.

Since in the present day (Deities & Demigods) he's an intermediate deity- it may be that he's lost power since his "greater deity days" around the making of the Pact Primeval.

[KillianHawkeye]

St. Cuthburt would have been around wouldn't he?
He said something about law without free will being meaningless or some such before the Pact Primeval was written.
Found the quote.
“Yes, retribution is the basis of all law.”

Heironeous and presumable Hextor were all around during the beginning when the Pact Primeval was written.

What books is the Dawn War mentioned in? I've never heard of it before.


Looks like Deities and Demigods conflict, which makes Fiendish Codex 2 the correct one because it is newer. Which means that somehow during the first creation of mortals and the Pact Primeval he became a god and then said that quote which turned him into a greater deity.

Hi! Welcome to the D&D 4E section of the boards. You seem to have lost your way.... :smallamused:

[sgtpimenta]

The Dawn War was the great battle between the gods and the primordials for control of the world.

Yeah, but what book(s) does explain these cool details that all the cool kids seems to know?

[hamishspence]

The Plane Above, and Demonomicon, are two good places. Also Heroes of the Elemental Chaos.

[Mandrake]

Check out Monster Manual, in the sidebars about Elder Elemental Eye and Birth of the Abyss. Also, Divine Power has some nice sidebars too (like the one about Raven Queen), all talking about time before present. It's real fun.

[KillianHawkeye]

Primal Power also fills in a lot of gaps about what the ancient Primal Beasts were up to back then.