Help me optimize my epic caster.

[King-Strawberry]

Also anyone in the giants an experience game, kindly stay out ;)
Jace Martell is currently at ecl 25, but has leveled up twice and I have no idea where to go with my build. As you can see it is quite ac centered, butlooking throught the ELH I noticed that I would have trouble hitting higher level things at all (even with touch attacks) not to mention bypassing SR. Anyone have any advice?


http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=378991

[Kumori]

So you have Epic Spellcasting, have you done anything with it? If not, how much gold, XP, and time do you have to play around with it? How badly is your DM going to allow you to break the game using it?

[Elric VIII]

Incantatrix is always a nice addition to Iot7V. IIRC, Arcane Preparation will let you get the both versions of Metamagic Effect.

I am also noticing a severe lack of Persistent Spell. That's a big one on a defense-focused caster (and an offense-focused caster, and a utility caster, and really any type of caster).

[King-Strawberry]

I have never played an epic spellcaster before, so basically I'm not sure what to do with it :smallredface:.
But I was under the impression that my spellcraft bonus wasn't high enough (I probably misunderstood something though.)
But dm is quite open to the epic spells other players have given him for consideration, he has yet to say no to any. But at this point we have a ton of time, not to mention xp & gold.

Looking over incantrix, I'm not sure I like the idea of prohibiting a school, I like them all. What makes the class so good?
I'm also fairly feat starved, otherwise I would have persistant, Although there are probably a few I have that aren't necessary.

[Calanon]

I'm confused as to how you are a Saint when you have no Exalted Bonus feats...


In order to qualify for sainthood, a character must meet the
following qualifications, as well as any additional requirements
set by the DM:

• Must be of good alignment
• Must have at least three exalted feats
• Must never have lost the benefit of exalted feats or class abilities
because of committing an evil act, even if the character
properly atoned
• Must at all times behave in a way the DM considers to be
exemplary of the exalted path described in this book
• Must be at least 6th level
• Must make an extraordinary sacrifice (not necessarily his or
her life) for the good of another

Epic Spellcasting is how you optimize an Epic Caster... Personally? I disagree... Because I believe at Epic level a Spellcaster should be making 1st-9th spells able to perform things that make them completely over the top (Example: Creating a Massive Forcecage around an entire city or completely wiping an entire country off the map with an Apocalypse from the Sky Metamagick'd into oblivion) although I will admit that Epic Spellcasting is sooo good and if offered it I will GLADLY take it <3

Anywho! Multispell, Automatic Metamagic feats are always good preferably quicken, I enjoy building a Netherese Arcanist using Improved Heightened Spell to make those 10-13th lvl Spell slots do something, If your going to be a Blaster I recommend Metamagic abuse out the wazoos. My former friend once Maximized, Empowered, Enhanced, Intensified a Violated Chain Lightning (All as an 11th level Spell and claimed she could get it lower)... Needless to say the guy wasn't standing up after that...

EDIT: She didn't Maximize it

Mailman builds... just looking at them makes you think "Yeah sure its cool" and then you see them play...

[King-Strawberry]

I was under the impression that saint was just a template? Oh..
“Saint” is an acquired template that can be added to any living creature of good alignment that is not an outsider or an elemental (referred to hereafter as the “base creature”). See Sainthood in
Chapter 2 for more information about becoming a saint. I guess I missed that part :smalleek: If I even noticed it when I first found the template I must have thought it was just fluff.

[Slipperychicken]

For epic spells, you want DC mitigation. For permanent/buff spells, you can increase the casting time by 10min for -20 DC. You could take Leadership and have all your caster minions help you out in rituals. You could get summons to provide spell slots as well. You could find some non-leadership caster buddies and get them to help you. Get the other party casters to help you with epic slots. If you get the DC down to zero, it takes no time or cash to research.


The Reflect seed looks good, as it lets you ignore spell levels 1-9 (which is most of them), as well as regular attacks, when they get through your other defenses. The summon seed too, as you can get permanent summoned buddies. Just be sure to get non-slotted rings of counterspells so no one dispels those buffs.

[Snowbluff]

No Item Familiar for the epic Spellcrafting DCs... this saddens me greatly.

[tyckspoon]

I have never played an epic spellcaster before, so basically I'm not sure what to do with it :smallredface:.
But I was under the impression that my spellcraft bonus wasn't high enough (I probably misunderstood something though.)


You're thinking about it backward. The key to optimizing Epic Spells isn't to see how high you can get your Spellcraft; it's figuring out how low you can get the DC on the spell you want. One of the most efficient ways to use it is creating long-lasting buffs for yourself; check out the Fortify seed. I'll walk you through one quick here:

Base DC for the seed: 17.
Base Effect:
You or a target you touch gets +1 Enhancement to a stat for 20 hours.

That's not terribly useful, is it? Well, let's start playing with it. We'll try to get you something that can replace that Cloak of Charisma, because the epic stat-boosting items are among the least efficient uses of gold ever printed.

Duration: Increase Duration by 100%, x7. This will make it last a little bit over a week. +14 DC (28.)

Increase Effect: +1 more bonus/2 DC. Trying to match your cloak, so we need +11 more effect. +22 DC (50.)

Now, as is, this is a useful spell, but it's a bit outside your current safe Spellcraft check. It's also kind of expensive, so we turn to Mitigating Factors:

Increase Casting Time: increase by 1 minute, 9x. -18 (32.)
Reduce Target Options: Change from 'touch' to 'personal.' -2 (30.)

30 DC is quite doable, and reasonably affordable for your ECL. But if you want to really make it good, acquire a Rod of Excellent Magic and add in

XP Cost: 2,000 XP (supplied by Rod of Excellent Magic, 1/day) -20.

End DC: 10.
End effect: +12 Charisma for a week at a time.
End cost: Less than 3/4 of what you paid for that Epic Cloak of Charisma, including the cost of the Rod of Excellent Magic as a one-time investment. And then you go and make the same spell in a Dexterity variant, and a Con variant, or whatever other stats you feel you need, as well as for any saves you're concerned about and Natural Armor- since they have a week duration, you can just cast 1/day as part of your morning routine and keep up to 7 such buffs in rotation.

[Calanon]

You're thinking about it backward. The key to optimizing Epic Spells isn't to see how high you can get your Spellcraft; it's figuring out how low you can get the DC on the spell you want. One of the most efficient ways to use it is creating long-lasting buffs for yourself; check out the Fortify seed. I'll walk you through one quick here:

Base DC for the seed: 17.
Base Effect:
You or a target you touch gets +1 Enhancement to a stat for 20 hours.

That's not terribly useful, is it? Well, let's start playing with it. We'll try to get you something that can replace that Cloak of Charisma, because the epic stat-boosting items are among the least efficient uses of gold ever printed.

Duration: Increase Duration by 100%, x7. This will make it last a little bit over a week. +14 DC (28.)

Increase Effect: +1 more bonus/2 DC. Trying to match your cloak, so we need +11 more effect. +22 DC (50.)

Now, as is, this is a useful spell, but it's a bit outside your current safe Spellcraft check. It's also kind of expensive, so we turn to Mitigating Factors:

Increase Casting Time: increase by 1 minute, 9x. -18 (32.)
Reduce Target Options: Change from 'touch' to 'personal.' -2 (30.)

30 DC is quite doable, and reasonably affordable for your ECL. But if you want to really make it good, acquire a Rod of Excellent Magic and add in

XP Cost: 2,000 XP (supplied by Rod of Excellent Magic, 1/day) -20.

End DC: 10.
End effect: +12 Charisma for a week at a time.
End cost: Less than 3/4 of what you paid for that Epic Cloak of Charisma, including the cost of the Rod of Excellent Magic as a one-time investment. And then you go and make the same spell in a Dexterity variant, and a Con variant, or whatever other stats you feel you need, as well as for any saves you're concerned about and Natural Armor- since they have a week duration, you can just cast 1/day as part of your morning routine and keep up to 7 such buffs in rotation.

ooo I enjoy using a Rod of Epic Spellcasting, multiple uses with each spell casted. this would reduce it to 20 instead of 10 but it is a little cheaper and of course the ability to use it more then once a day should off set that cost. besides by the time you are able to cast Epic spells making a 20 on a Spellcraft check should be child's play. :smallbiggrin: Of course its all about preference, if you only plan to cast one Epic Spell per day then the Rod of Excellent Magic is perfect.

[Kumori]

You're thinking about it backward. The key to optimizing Epic Spells isn't to see how high you can get your Spellcraft; it's figuring out how low you can get the DC on the spell you want. One of the most efficient ways to use it is creating long-lasting buffs for yourself; check out the Fortify seed. I'll walk you through one quick here:

Base DC for the seed: 17.
Base Effect:
You or a target you touch gets +1 Enhancement to a stat for 20 hours.

That's not terribly useful, is it? Well, let's start playing with it. We'll try to get you something that can replace that Cloak of Charisma, because the epic stat-boosting items are among the least efficient uses of gold ever printed.

Duration: Increase Duration by 100%, x7. This will make it last a little bit over a week. +14 DC (28.)

Increase Effect: +1 more bonus/2 DC. Trying to match your cloak, so we need +11 more effect. +22 DC (50.)

Now, as is, this is a useful spell, but it's a bit outside your current safe Spellcraft check. It's also kind of expensive, so we turn to Mitigating Factors:

Increase Casting Time: increase by 1 minute, 9x. -18 (32.)
Reduce Target Options: Change from 'touch' to 'personal.' -2 (30.)

30 DC is quite doable, and reasonably affordable for your ECL. But if you want to really make it good, acquire a Rod of Excellent Magic and add in

XP Cost: 2,000 XP (supplied by Rod of Excellent Magic, 1/day) -20.

End DC: 10.
End effect: +12 Charisma for a week at a time.
End cost: Less than 3/4 of what you paid for that Epic Cloak of Charisma, including the cost of the Rod of Excellent Magic as a one-time investment. And then you go and make the same spell in a Dexterity variant, and a Con variant, or whatever other stats you feel you need, as well as for any saves you're concerned about and Natural Armor- since they have a week duration, you can just cast 1/day as part of your morning routine and keep up to 7 such buffs in rotation.

He has fast healing 10. With a spell you're going to cast 1/week, you might as well use some backlash damage to drop the DC more, allowing the effect to be increased well beyond the cloak's abilities.

[King-Strawberry]

To keep the saint template would you guys recommend Vow of Poverty? seems like I would get some pretty awesome bonuses that would basically do the same as all the magic items I have.

[tyckspoon]

He has fast healing 10. With a spell you're going to cast 1/week, you might as well use some backlash damage to drop the DC more, allowing the effect to be increased well beyond the cloak's abilities.

That'll only safely absorb 2d6 of backlash, and if you want to have more than one of this kind of spell up you can't use the backlash on more than one of them. Not really worth it for just another -2 mitigation, unless you're really desperate to squeeze out 1 more point of bonus.

Alternate cheap mitigation technique: (This is one to use on a designated Buff Day, since it requires most of your best spell slots)
Design the spell as a Ritual, using the 'helpers contribute spell slots' option. Spend all your 9th level spells on Summon Monster IX for Couatls. Couatls have 4th level spell slots, so each one you summon this way is worth -7 in mitigation.

Significantly cheesy version of above: Greater Planar Binding a small squad of Planetars. Planetars have 9th level spell slots, and are also excellent minions in general if you get them to serve you for longer than it takes to help with your spell.

Edit:

To keep the saint template would you guys recommend Vow of Poverty? seems like I would get some pretty awesome bonuses that would basically do the same as all the magic items I have.

They will ban me if I put the font size of this as big as it needs to be for appropriate emphasis. No. No no no no.

You will get much better results from using your money appropriately, especially because Vow of Poverty does not have provisions for scaling into the Epic ECLs. Ditch the Cloak of Charisma, or at least cut it back to a lesser bonus- the 440,000 GP difference between the +10 and +12 versions could buy you a +4 Tome of Charisma instead of the +2 you're using with more than 300k change.

[gorfnab]

Looking over incantrix, I'm not sure I like the idea of prohibiting a school, I like them all. What makes the class so good?

Well here's a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159360) that explains most of it.
Specifically look at the 4th post by Eldariel.


Make sure you're looking at the right Incantatrix. The one online is the 3.0 version which while alright, is not really broken (though Improved Metamagic is still too good). Player's Guide to Faerun contains the right one.

As for why it's incredibly powerful, something I was able to dig up from some thread where the question came up in:

"And the biggest power of [Incantatrix] comes from the following abilities:

Cooperative Metamagic [Level 2]: Basically, you can apply a metamagic feat you know to a spell an ally casts (you could just have your familiar cast these spells with Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability [SpC Level 6 Universal] if you need to work "alone") 3+Int times per day. At best, you apply Persistent Spell [CArc] and enjoy the 3+Int persisted buffs on the party. Lots of other good metamagic exists too though.

Metamagic Effect [Level 3]: You can apply a metamagic feat you know to an effect in place. Basically, this allows you to persist another 3+Int spells of your choice - this time you can even cast them yourself. Again, take any metamagic that can be applied to constant effect and apply it for free.

Instant Metamagic [Level 7+9]: This is only 1/2 times per day, but it's a free metamagic on a spell you cast. You can persist two additional spells or boost your Boom Booms on the fly (something like Twin Spell, Quicken Spell or such is fun)

Improved Metamagic [Level 10]: All your metamagic costs are reduced by 1 to a minimum of 1. In English, this allows you to stack a ****ton of metamagic feats on an offensive spell and deal few hundred points of damage with a level 9 slots. Combined with Arcane Thesis [PHBII], 0-adjustment metamagic feats (such as Invisible Spell [Cityscape] & Sanctum Spell [CArc]) and enough feats to reduce the cost of a single metamagic feat (Practical Metamagic [RoD], Easy Metamagic [Dragon 325] & co.) and you can be dealing a few hundred points of damage from slot, the same level as the original spell. And Quicken it for good measure. There are other and more conservative uses for this but they're all busted.


Of course, because Incantatrix isn't broken enough with the above abilities, you also get 4 free metamagic feats, ability to steal effects cast by other spellcasters, ability to apply metamagic to Wands & al. (like an Artificer indeed), etc. Basically, the class is just nuts. In so many ways it's not even funny. Remove 3 of the above 4 abilities and it's still worth taking."


*Editor's Note: Errata nerfs Instant Metamagic to maximum of the highest level spell you can cast. Still useful, and e.g. Sanctum Spell and Earth Spell can pump up your maximum level but not broken. Still v. good.*

[legomaster00156]

I just think it's funny that you need help optimizing something with Epic spellcasting. Here, let me give you an example of Epic spellcasting:

Spell name: I Win
Seed: Does it matter?
Spellcraft DC: Mitigated down to nothing.
Effect: You win D&D.

[The Glyphstone]

To keep the saint template would you guys recommend Vow of Poverty? seems like I would get some pretty awesome bonuses that would basically do the same as all the magic items I have.

Holy crap no.

1) Vow of Poverty stops giving bonuses at level 20.
2) Even at level 20, you're only getting 60-70% of what full WBL could buy you.

Taking VoP normally is shooting yourself in the foot. Taking VoP in Epic levels is strapping bottles of nitroglycerin to your ankles and going bungee jumping.

[Calanon]

I just think it's funny that you need help optimizing something with Epic spellcasting. Here, let me give you an example of Epic spellcasting:

Spell name: I Win
Seed: Does it matter?
Spellcraft DC: Mitigated down to nothing.
Effect: You win D&D.

That is such a strained look on Epic Spellcasting... :smallannoyed: I am really curious to know if anyone has ever made and deployed an Epic Spell in a game that could completely destroy the world they inhabit (and No, Karsus' Avatar does not count)



Holy crap no.

1) Vow of Poverty stops giving bonuses at level 20.
2) Even at level 20, you're only getting 60-70% of what full WBL could buy you.

Taking VoP normally is shooting yourself in the foot. Taking VoP in Epic levels is strapping bottles of nitroglycerin to your ankles and going bungee jumping.

You could always ask your DM if s/he'll allow the Epic Vow of Poverty (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=707.0) :smallamused:

[King-Strawberry]

You could always ask your DM if s/he'll allow the Epic Vow of Poverty Theoretically, if my dm did allow it, would it still be equivalent to shooting myself in the foot?

[Calanon]

Theoretically, if my dm did allow it, would it still be equivalent to shooting myself in the foot?

...Ehh... Yes... but I've never played with the VoP seriously... and to be more accurate its like throwing a grenade in your pants... Only take the VoP if your entire party is on board with the idea otherwise you will literally have people throwing gold or Magical Items at you in an attempt to make you break your vow and thus completely cripple your character (Which isn't how it works...)

EDIT:

Dissecting the Epic VoP would take WAY to long if anyone wants to do it go ahead.

[King-Strawberry]

Okay seems like I'd just be better of finding some other way to keep the template, (I really like some of the abilities and would prefer to keep it)

[Calanon]

Okay seems like I'd just be better of finding some other way to keep the template, (I really like some of the abilities and would prefer to keep it)

Well if your going to be taking Exalted Feats lets look at the acceptable ones that don't take away from your character.

Intuitive Attack: Adds your Wisdom to your attacks instead of your Str... depending on your build this can be a "gift from god" :smallbiggrin:

Nymph's Kiss: +1 bonus skill point at every level... other stuff that nobody seems to care about for some reason...

Touch of Golden Ice: Eh... uhh... yeah... uhh... I'll come back later...

Words of Creation: ...Eh... I'll come back later...

Besides showing that I don't know jack diddly about Exalted feats :smallannoyed: Nymph's Kiss and then Intuitive Attack are the most useful Exalted feats (This is my opinion!)

[Snowbluff]

Touch of Golden Ice is actually very strong, but you have to get quite a few hits per turn and hope one results in a save fail if you want it to do anything at Epic levels. It does, like, 3d6 dex damage or something crazy IIRC.

Words of Creation is good for Bards. Well, OP if you're going for Inpsire Courage Awesomemization. Doubling your IC is just so sweet.

[Kumori]

That'll only safely absorb 2d6 of backlash, and if you want to have more than one of this kind of spell up you can't use the backlash on more than one of them. Not really worth it for just another -2 mitigation, unless you're really desperate to squeeze out 1 more point of bonus.

Not quite true. With the spell being only used once/week, he could load it up with say 40d6 backlash damage (140 average) and be fully recovered from casting in under 3 minutes. It'd be dangerous if you were attacked immediately after casting, but you should be able to find a few minutes of safety.

[Calanon]

Not quite true. With the spell being only used once/week, he could load it up with say 40d6 backlash damage (140 average) and be fully recovered from casting in under 3 minutes. It'd be dangerous if you were attacked immediately after casting, but you should be able to find a few minutes of safety.

The Backlash would repeat every single round while casting the spell... He'll die before he even finishes casting the spell :smallconfused: Backlash abusing Epic Spells are... well impossible since you can't really abuse Backlash damage unless your Epic spell heals you while your casting it... Not sure any DM, even one playing through "How the Mighty are fallen" would allow this and everyone in that module is an Epic Spellcaster by 3.5 standards

Epic Spellcasting while very flexible and often debunked as "Homebrew" does have rules... Unlike Homebrew which just says "I want this, this, this and this and theres nothing saying I can't take it"

Epic Spellcasting is more like "I have read the rules and regulations for crafting an Epic spell, filled out the necessary paper work, waited in like A to get transferred to line B only to find out I filled out the wrong paper work so that I can wait in line C to get the proper paper work... Lets see if I get approved"

Besides... I like Epic Magic :smallsmile: Whenever I'm working on one I get a better sense that I'm RP'ing my character the way that I want to...

[Kumori]

The Backlash would repeat every single round while casting the spell...

:smalleek: Oops... I guess I had forgotten that... Don't really play a whole lot of epic, so most of my knowledge is just from playing around with character creation as opposed to real (lol) experience. And rereading it, the backlash damage happens per round of the duration of the spell... Ouch.


Epic Spellcasting is more like "I have read the rules and regulations for crafting an Epic spell, filled out the necessary paper work, waited in like A to get transferred to line B only to find out I filled out the wrong paper work so that I can wait in line C to get the proper paper work... Lets see if I get approved"

An image of 'Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy' pops into mind when reading that. I can see a Vogon lady saying "You need a Presidential Spellcraft DC Mitigation form. Those are blue."

[The Glyphstone]

Didn't someone once do the math and find that directly replicating Meteor Swarm through Epic Spellcasting would cost something like half a million GP? The system is binary - abuse mitigation for ridiculous OP effects, or play it 'as intended(?)' and be pretty much useless.

[Slipperychicken]

Didn't someone once do the math and find that directly replicating Meteor Swarm through Epic Spellcasting would cost something like half a million GP? The system is binary - abuse mitigation for ridiculous OP effects, or play it 'as intended(?)' and be pretty much useless.

I get the feeling that, when writing the Epic rules, the devs chucked some massive numbers around and hoped it would sound epic. This is especially true regarding gold piece values. It's broken both ways: you either spend titanic resources for mediocre effects, or spend practically nothing for game-smashing effects.

[gomipile]

The Backlash would repeat every single round while casting the spell...

It's actually worse than that: "For spells with durations longer than instantaneous, the backlash damage is per round." So, that's per round of the duration of the spell, not the casting time. The moral of the story is: friends don't let friends use backlash on spells with significant duration.