Elf Scout Optimazation

[F0X7713]

Hey all, I am going to be starting a new campaign in about a week and I was wondering if anyone had some tips or ideas to help me optimize my Scout's DPs. I am also the skill monkey in the party, but I want to focus on my character's damage output as much as possible. Any ideas or suggestions would be great! ^_^

[JackMage666]

TWF + A dip in Lion Totem Barbarian to nab Pounce gives you a way to charge and dish out alot of attacks that add Skirmish. I'm sure some tips from the Ubercharge mount would be applicable here, too.

Improved Skirmish in Complete Scoundrel gives you more Damage/AC if you move 20 ft instead of 10.

[Fenryr]

How much you wanna optimize? Just a bit? Multiclass? Only feats?

Must read. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872250/The_Scouts_Handbook)

[gorfnab]

Are you going ranged or melee focused?

[Rhaegar14]

Let me be the first to say "you should play a Swift Hunter." Take the Trapfinding variant for Ranger out of Dungeonscape to get Disable Device onto their class skill list (by the way, Scout is errata'd to have Disable Device as a class skill, which is very good to know if your DM is fond of traps).

Take four levels of Scout, then make the rest of your class levels Ranger levels, and take the Swift Hunter feat out of Complete Scoundrel, which allows your Ranger and Scout levels to stack for Skirmish damage and Favored Enemy bonuses. Combine with Travel Devotion (move as a Swift action 3/day) out of Complete Champion and Improved Manyshot out of Expanded Psionics Handbook (fire multiple arrows as a Standard action, all of which gain bonus precision damage). Improved Skirmish is also very nice, but nonessential to the functioning of the build and should be postponed until it "comes fully online," so to speak.

Or, if you would rather smack things than shoot them, do the same thing but with Two-Weapon Fighting and JackMage's Barbarian suggestion.

[Flickerdart]

If you want a strong alternative to Swift Hunter, you can do that, but you'll need to multiclass even more. Unseen Seer and Swiftblade are both very good PrCs for the Scout (both advance skirmish damage, after a fashion) who likes a little magic in his cereal.

[nedz]

Go Ranged OR Melee NOT both. Scout can be feat intensive even with their bonus feats.

You can dip arcane classes for more options.
Warlock 2 - mainly for the invocations and Det Magic - though the range touch is occasionally handy. Quite flavourful, not really geared for dps.
Wizard 3 - int synergy for skills and level 2 utilities. There are a few dps enhancers though.

Swift Hunter is probably better.

[DrMike105]

For the record, travel devotion is once per day for one minute. You can burn turn undead for more uses, which is why cloistered cleric dips are great.

[Yuukale]

I built this aiming for dmg output, see if it's of any use:



Here's an old build I came up with last year and was wondering what would be your thoughts on it.

Elf - 80points
Str: 10
Dex: 34
Con: 10
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Cha: 10

1/Scout 1 Skirmish +1d6 / Level Feat:Travel Devotion

2/(Cloistered*) Cleric of Solonor 1 Turn Undead; Elf, War domain. (Domain swapped Feats: Point Blank Shot; Weapon Focus (Longbow); Knowledge Devotion)

3/Scout 2 Precise Shot
4/Scout 3 Skirmish +2d6 / +1 AC
5/Rogue 1 Sneak Attack +1d6
6/Scout 4 Level Feat: Rapid Shot / Scout Bonus Feat: Swift Ambusher
7/Rogue 2
8/Rogue 3 Sneak Attack +2d6
9/Rogue 4 Level Feat: Improved Skirmish
10/Rogue 5 Sneak Attack +3d6
11/Rogue 6
12/Rogue 7 Sneak Attack +4d6 / Level Feat: Woodland Archer
13/Rogue 8
14/Rogue 9 Sneak Attack +5d6
15/Rogue 10 Special Ability (Bonus Feat: Craven) / Level Feat: Expeditious Dodge
16/Rogue 11 Sneak Attack +6d6
17/Rogue 12
18/Rogue 13 Sneak Attack +7d6 / Special Ability (your choice) / Level Feat: Improved Precise Shot
19/Rogue 14
20/Rogue 15 Sneak Attack +8d6



Skirmish Total: Skirmish: +7d6 / +7 AC
Sneak Attack Total: Sneak Attack: +8d6

Equipment:

Tome [Dex]+5 137,5k

Bracers of Murder 8k (11th)
Goggles of the Ebon Hunter 18k (14th)
Rogue's Vest 18k (14th)
Mantle of the Predator 8k (11th)
Scout's Headband 3.4k (8th)
Skirmisher's Boots 3.2k (8th)
Gloves of Dexterity +4 16K
Dragon's Eye Amulet 55k (18th)

Ring of Blinking 27k (16th)
Ring of Vanishing 30k (16th)

Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis 10.8k (stealth shenanigans)
Tome of Worldly Memory 1.5k (helps knowledge devotion)
Nightstick 7.5k (makes up for the low charisma and... 1min/use and 3 times a day is enough for travel devotion usage, isn't it?)

Armor:
Mithral Chainshirt of Freedom +5 100k
Greater Crystal of Mind Cloaking 10k(12th)

Weapon:
Splitting Deadly Precision Assassination Longbow +5 162k
Witchlight Reservoir Crystal 5k
Quiver of Ehlonna 1.800K

Totals: 750.700k / 9.3K left (perhaps some divine favor, blessed aim and arrow mind wands?)


AC: 25/ 32 when skirmishing and 34 if you get to trigger expeditious dodge

Strategy and Attacks:

With this build, you can be your party's scout and dish out some heavy punishment, by as often as possible, triggering both the skirmish and the sneak attack conditions. You should stay within the 30ft range but always on the move, to benefit from the skirmish and E.Dodge AC bonus.

The Freedom property in the armor is there to keep you safe from grapples and stuff like that, and the crystal to prevent mental shenanigans from mages.

Spot the Weak Point, Ring of Blinking and Ring of Vanishing provide you means to apply as often as possible your sneak attack damage in addition to the skirmish dmg.


Rapid shot: 35/+35/+35/+35/+30/+30/+25/+25

If an arrow misses, all the subsequent ones have +4 to hit due to "woodland archer" feat.

Attacks Breakdown:

Base Attack Bonus: +15/+10/+5
Point Blank Shot: +1
Weapon Focus: +1
Goggles of Ebon Hunter: +1
Bracers of Murder +2
Weapon: +5
Dexterity: +12

Damage if all arrows hit:

8d8 bow + 64d6 skirmish + 88d6 sneak attack +16d6 witchlight reservoir + 240 / not to mention knowledge devotion

Damage Breakdown:
1d8 longbow
7d6 Skirmish + 1d6 Vest
8d6 S.A. + 1d6 Vest + 1d6 D.P + 1d6 Assassination
2d6 witchlight reservoir
1 Point Blank Shot +2 Skirm Boots +5 Enhancement +2 Bracers + 20 Craven

[Flickerdart]

Witchlight Reservoir is melee only.

[Yuukale]

hmm my bad, but nonetheless, I hope my build still matches his request.

[Red_Dog]

Whats the starting level?

Are multiclassing penalties in Play?

If so, than a problem with building Swift hunter is in penalties. I play with them, but some people ignore them.

You can however leap-frog Ranger & Scout to avoid it.
Or you can always play a Wood Elf and have a typical 4Scout/16 Ranger swifthunter build.

Note that swift hunter can be used with Elusive Target/Improved Trip, but than you might want to dip Fighter 2 and only have Scout 3[ to avoid penalties]. Also note that you can swap your combat style to wildshaping ranger for extra movement as if you are using Elusive Target you are going to want a shield.

Just do not forget to yell obscenities at enemy as much as you can so they would attack you as you pass by ^^

[F0X7713]

Let me be the first to say "you should play a Swift Hunter." Take the Trapfinding variant for Ranger out of Dungeonscape to get Disable Device onto their class skill list (by the way, Scout is errata'd to have Disable Device as a class skill, which is very good to know if your DM is fond of traps).

Take four levels of Scout, then make the rest of your class levels Ranger levels, and take the Swift Hunter feat out of Complete Scoundrel, which allows your Ranger and Scout levels to stack for Skirmish damage and Favored Enemy bonuses. Combine with Travel Devotion (move as a Swift action 3/day) out of Complete Champion and Improved Manyshot out of Expanded Psionics Handbook (fire multiple arrows as a Standard action, all of which gain bonus precision damage). Improved Skirmish is also very nice, but nonessential to the functioning of the build and should be postponed until it "comes fully online," so to speak.

Or, if you would rather smack things than shoot them, do the same thing but with Two-Weapon Fighting and JackMage's Barbarian suggestion.

Yes, This build seems amazing! I am definitely going to be going this route! Now I have seen some builds that don't have the rangers spells and have replaced them with other things, would that be wise?

For everyone else thank you for your input! Sorry I wasn't that clear!

I am starting at lvl 1, I am going to be going ranged, I am the skill monkey for the group, and I know my DM does like traps... So there is that. Basically what I will be wanting my character to do is be ahead of the party, and see what they can't until we get to lvl 4 (When the wizard gets scry) and I want to be in the one running around shooting stuff all the time.

Out party as of now consists of:
Elf Scout
Elf Wizard
Human Fighter
Human Knight

Anything else I should know? (Basically any other opinions! I love getting all of your input! =])

[F0X7713]

And just curious, which should I level up more, scout or ranger, because it seems the scout has better options as far as the extra feats and the ability he gains as a scout in comparison to the ranger. Just a thought, not really sure on that one.

[Flickerdart]

Ranger. Extra BAB is huge when you're sinking attack bonus into Rapid Shot or Manyshot, the bonus combat style feats don't hurt, and there are a lot of nice Ranger spells in PHB2 and the Spell Compendium.

[nedz]

Ranger. Extra BAB is huge when you're sinking attack bonus into Rapid Shot or Manyshot, the bonus combat style feats don't hurt, and there are a lot of nice Ranger spells in PHB2 and the Spell Compendium.
Which is why you use Mystic Ranger if you are not the hand to hand type.

[Flickerdart]

Eh, Mystic Ranger is so good that is isn't very sporting to use it, especially in a party with a Knight and a Fighter.

[F0X7713]

Yeah, you're right the BAB is really worth it, but I am still not sure if I want to have the spells from the ranger. Honestly the spells that are most appealing at the cure spells bcuz we have no dedicated healer...

Also, what is a "cloistered" class? I can't find what that is anywhere.. I saw that one guy get travel devotion as his first feat and it seemed pretty appealing.

[Flickerdart]

Also, what is a "cloistered" class? I can't find what that is anywhere.. I saw that one guy get travel devotion as his first feat and it seemed pretty appealing.
Cloistered Cleric is an alternate class for Clerics in the SRD/UA. It has poor BAB and crappy HD but 6 skill points per level, and gains the Knowledge domain as a bonus domain (which everyone immediately trades for Knowledge Devotion).

[F0X7713]

So is that a wise play, doing that to get the travel devotion then going on with scout for 4 levels then ranger for the rest?

Also, our DM as let us know that money isn't going to be as plentiful this game (I am not sure if that means its going to be lower than average or what exactly that means, just know that there will be less gold for me), does that really hurt me? I am going to try to base my class knowing that, not really banking on powerful items.

Any suggestions for that? =)

[Darrin]

Yeah, you're right the BAB is really worth it, but I am still not sure if I want to have the spells from the ranger. Honestly the spells that are most appealing at the cure spells bcuz we have no dedicated healer...


Ranger spells add a huge amount of flexibility and utility to a build (particularly if you have access to the Spell Compendium, PHBII, etc.). However, if that doesn't fit your concept, there are two versions of the Ranger without spells... the first is in Complete Warrior, but you can skip it because it stinks. The second is in Complete Champion, where the Champion of the Wild ACF gives you access to a limited number of bonus feats instead of spell levels. (Unfortunately, most of the bonus feats are lame or useless.)

However... if your party doesn't have a healer, then I'd recommend keeping the spells and ask the party to chip in on a few wands of CLW. This lets you stay on top of most of the out-of-combat healing.



Also, what is a "cloistered" class? I can't find what that is anywhere.. I saw that one guy get travel devotion as his first feat and it seemed pretty appealing.

Cloistered Cleric can be found here (http://srd.realmspire.com/unearthedCoreClass.html#cloistered-cleric), in the Unearthed Arcana section of the SRD. Since you're an elf, you can worship Sehanine Moonbow and pick up three domains/devotions: Elf domain (Point Blank Shot as a bonus feat), Travel Devotion (move up to your speed as a swift action), and Knowledge Devotion (free action knowledge check to gain bonus attack/damage). The only real drawbacks are it dings up your BAB slightly, and could cause some multiclass XP headaches if your DM is into that nonsense.

Swift Hunter builds can be a bit tricky because you run into a bottleneck of feats around 6th level, where you're trying to get Swift Hunter/Manyshot/Greater Manyshot/Improved Skirmish/Improved Rapid Shot all at the same time, which tends to shove some important feats up to 9th or 12th level. Once that all gets sorted out, it can get considerably nifty.

[F0X7713]

Cloistered Cleric can be found here (http://srd.realmspire.com/unearthedCoreClass.html#cloistered-cleric), in the Unearthed Arcana section of the SRD. Since you're an elf, you can worship Sehanine Moonbow and pick up three domains/devotions: Elf domain (Point Blank Shot as a bonus feat), Travel Devotion (move up to your speed as a swift action), and Knowledge Devotion (free action knowledge check to gain bonus attack/damage). The only real drawbacks are it dings up your BAB slightly, and could cause some multiclass XP headaches if your DM is into that nonsense.

Swift Hunter builds can be a bit tricky because you run into a bottleneck of feats around 6th level, where you're trying to get Swift Hunter/Manyshot/Greater Manyshot/Improved Skirmish/Improved Rapid Shot all at the same time, which tends to shove some important feats up to 9th or 12th level. Once that all gets sorted out, it can get considerably nifty.

Yeah, he does do the XP stuff with multiclassing, which is why I am going to be a wood elf because I can avoid the penalty that way. And I don't start the campaign until next Monday, so we will have to see how things go as far as money.

[nedz]

Eh, Mystic Ranger is so good that is isn't very sporting to use it, especially in a party with a Knight and a Fighter.

What, your complaining that I'm over optimising ?:smallbiggrin:
I do note that there's a Wizard in the party too, Mystic Ranger isn't that good.

[F0X7713]

So I guess the way I am gonna go with it is:

1)Scout- Point Blank Shot, Skirmish (+1d6), trapfinding (BAB-0)
2)Scout- Battle fortitude +1, uncanny dodge (BAB-1)
3)Scout- (not sure what feat for this spot.. Help?), Fast movement +10 ft., skirmish (+1d6, +1 AC), trackless step (BAB-2)
4)Scout- Bonus Feat= Precise Shot(BAB-3)
5)Scout- Evasion, skirmish (+2d6, +1 AC) (I only did this because I wont have Swift hunter yet, and I didn't want to loose the Skirmish bonus, unless that is not how it works, then I would start going ranger here.) (BAB-3)
6)Ranger- Swift Hunter, 1st favored enemy, Track, wild empathy (BAB-4)
7)Ranger- Combat Style Archery, Getting Rapid Shot, Skirmish (+2d6, +2 AC) (BAB-5)
8) Ranger- Endurance (BAB-6/1)
9) Ranger- Manyshot, Animal companion-Wolf (Because they are awesome, and its the one thing I don't care if its optimal)

That is what I am thinking up to level 9. Questions:
How can I move and use manyshot to get skirmish? It says it takes a full action, thus I cannot move and then shoot, right? That is something I have been struggling with, and its really making me wonder lol.
I think the next feat I would take would be Improved Skrimish. Any objections to that?
Should I ever level up Scout again for any reason? I am assuming no, but just thought I would check.
And Finally, are there any other ideas or opinions you guys can think of to improve this build?

Thanks a ton!!! =)

[F0X7713]

What, your complaining that I'm over optimising ?:smallbiggrin:
I do note that there's a Wizard in the party too, Mystic Ranger isn't that good.

The wizard is new, brand new, first game new lol. However DnD has been pretty easy to understand for him, and I told him that the Wizard is one of the most powerful in the game, but I don't think he is going to look far enough into it to make himself 100% optimized. I am gonna make sure he is at least 80% though because we don't have a healer, and we need to kill things as fast as humanly possible so our tank (the knight) doesn't go down. XP

[Flickerdart]

That's not how it works - you'll get that Skirmish regardless of whether or not you took Scout 5 or Ranger 1 at 5th. Scout 5 also sucks.

I would suggest redoing the early levels as Scout 1/Ranger 2/Scout 3 though, since that sets you up to take Swift Hunter using your Scout 4 bonus feat.

[nedz]

That's now how it works - you'll get that Skirmish regardless of whether or not you took Scout 5 or Ranger 1 at 5th. Scout 5 also sucks.

I would suggest redoing the early levels as Scout 1/Ranger 2/Scout 3 though, since that sets you up to take Swift Hunter using your Scout 4 bonus feat.

Going with this, and your build list, I'd suggest.
Level 3 Feat Precise Shot
Level 6 bonus Feat Swift Hunter
Level 6 Feat Improved Skirmish
but others make take a different view.

[F0X7713]

That makes way more sense, and yes, scout 5 does suck. So I will only have to take 3 levels in scout then?

And Nedz, your reply didn't make much sense, I already have swift hunter in the revised build, and I wouldn't get a bonus feat at 6 because I'm a ranger.

And can anyone answer my green question asked above?? :)

[Flickerdart]

Level 4 of Scout is a good level - it grants +1 BAB and a bonus feat. Take it.

[F0X7713]

Got it. Perfect, this build is definitely looking really good. ^_^

Now... I still don't get this...


How can I move and use manyshot to get skirmish? It says it takes a full action, thus I cannot move and then shoot, right? That is something I have been struggling with, and its really making me wonder lol. Can someone please answer this for me? Thanks.

[Flickerdart]

Manyshot is a standard action.

[F0X7713]

Got it. Perfect, this build is definitely looking really good. ^_^

Now... I still don't get this...

Can someone please answer this for me? Thanks.

Or move and use rapid shot. Basically I am trying to figure out if there is any way at all to apply Skirmish to a full attack...

[nedz]

This was based on Flickerdart's suggestion

1)Scout 1- Point Blank Shot
2)Ranger 1
3)Ranger 2 - Precise Shot
4)Scout 2
5)Scout 3
6)Scout 4- Swift Hunter (B), Improved Skirmish

[F0X7713]

Okay, I understand that, but what I am asking, is at level 8 I am not going to be able to do the following:

Move, attack with many shot applying Skirmish, then use my second attack, with manyshot and apply my skirmish to that.

Unless I am missing something really obvious or really lame, I don't think I can do the above correct?

[F0X7713]

This was based on Flickerdart's suggestion

1)Scout 1- Point Blank Shot
2)Ranger 1
3)Ranger 2 - Precise Shot
4)Scout 2
5)Scout 3
6)Scout 4- Swift Hunter (B), Improved Skirmish

Gotchya, that makes total sense, thanks man! ^_^

[Flickerdart]

No, that's...what?

Manyshot is a standard action. You only have one of those. Besides which, you'll need Greater Manyshot before you can apply Skirmish damage more than once.

[Lateral]

How can I move and use manyshot to get skirmish? It says it takes a full action, thus I cannot move and then shoot, right? That is something I have been struggling with, and its really making me wonder lol.

Yeah, you're missing something- Manyshot is a standard action. Remember to also take Greater Manyshot, otherwise you'll only get Skirmish damage once.

[F0X7713]

No, that's...what?

Manyshot is a standard action. You only have one of those. Besides which, you'll need Greater Manyshot before you can apply Skirmish damage more than once.

LOL Yeah, sorry for being confusing. In the later levels, when my BAB is 15/10/5, what me and my group was trying to figure out is if we could add skirmish to the full attack, which we all deemed was pretty much impossible unless we house-rulled that the scout could move before a full attack to apply the skirmish to her attacks.

[Flickerdart]

There's a whole thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) about how to move and full attack in the same round.

[F0X7713]

0.o

Well then... Excuse me a moment while I absorb all that information.

[F0X7713]

Hmm... I think what I could do is talk to my DM and see if I take the Champion of the Wild Ranger from the Complete Champion's book since I would be giving up my spellcasting, and the feats I would get out of that would be "okay", I could get the travel domain and thus getting the feat it comes with. I think that would actually be awesome.

[F0X7713]

Oh, and can anyone tell me where I can find the feat Vital Shot? I saw it in one of the dragon magazines (310 if I am not mistaken) but it only gives me a brief description, and I wanted to see if it was anywhere, because I think being able to add my Dex to my ranged attacks would be pretty amazing as well.
=D

[Rhaegar14]

Oh, and can anyone tell me where I can find the feat Vital Shot? I saw it in one of the dragon magazines (310 if I am not mistaken) but it only gives me a brief description, and I wanted to see if it was anywhere, because I think being able to add my Dex to my ranged attacks would be pretty amazing as well.
=D

You're thinking of Dead Eye, which is in Dragon Magazine Compendium, but I'd honestly save it for later; it requires Weapon Focus (which means it's eating up two feat slots), and you don't have the feats to spare until you have Greater Manyshot up. Also, on this note, I would actually recommend saving Scout 4 for your 7th character level, which would allow you to take Manyshot for your bonus feat, then Greater Manyshot at 9th level (otherwise, you're level 12 before you can get Greater Manyshot)

As for other general advice (since you asked for it), for Ranger favored enemies, pick things like Undead, Constructs, Oozes, and other stuff that is immune to your Skirmish damage so your usefulness doesn't plummet when you're required to fight them.

A dip into Cloistered Cleric and Travel Devotion is also an excellent way to get multiple attacks and move, using things like Nightsticks and the Undeath Domain to get extra turn attempts to burn. You generally want to go one route or the other, however, and that depends largely on how okay you are with dropping off from ~level 6 until level 9, when everyone else is making multiple attacks and you really can't yet. Are flaws allowed?

[F0X7713]

You're thinking of Dead Eye, which is in Dragon Magazine Compendium, but I'd honestly save it for later; it requires Weapon Focus (which means it's eating up two feat slots), and you don't have the feats to spare until you have Greater Manyshot up. Also, on this note, I would actually recommend saving Scout 4 for your 7th character level, which would allow you to take Manyshot for your bonus feat, then Greater Manyshot at 9th level (otherwise, you're level 12 before you can get Greater Manyshot)

As for other general advice (since you asked for it), for Ranger favored enemies, pick things like Undead, Constructs, Oozes, and other stuff that is immune to your Skirmish damage so your usefulness doesn't plummet when you're required to fight them.

A dip into Cloistered Cleric and Travel Devotion is also an excellent way to get multiple attacks and move, using things like Nightsticks and the Undeath Domain to get extra turn attempts to burn. You generally want to go one route or the other, however, and that depends largely on how okay you are with dropping off from ~level 6 until level 9, when everyone else is making multiple attacks and you really can't yet. Are flaws allowed?

What exactly do you mean by flaws? Flaws in a build or...? (Sorry, not super good with all the DnD terms. Like MAD, what does that mean!?)

[Rhaegar14]

Flaws are an alternate rule out of Unearthed Arcana. You are allowed to take up to two flaws at 1st level, and in exchange, take a bonus feat for each flaw. Their penalties can be harsh, but the idea is to pick something that's not super relevant to your build (for instance, melee attacks on a Swift Hunter archer). Some DMs aren't fans, because they allow for min/maxing, but they also help some builds that need certain feats to work properly start working earlier.

Edit: Oh, and scratch that 7th-level Manyshot thing. It's not on the list of Scout bonus feats.

[F0X7713]

Gotchya, I am not sure, I just sent him a text asking him, but I would even be willing to take a -1 from Vulnerable to also get the second feat, in addition to Noncombatant.

[F0X7713]

Well, as of now, I am going to assume he will be fine with me taking flaws. When exactly do I get the extra feats, whenever I want? It doesn't say in the description of the book, It just says, "Each flaw a player selects entitles his character to a bonus feat."

[F0X7713]

Edit: Oh, and scratch that 7th-level Manyshot thing. It's not on the list of Scout bonus feats.

Yeah I saw that as well, and that is no big deal, I don't have to get that right away, as long as my first attack is more powerful I guess that is fine, and getting it at lvl 12 isn't that terrible! ^_^

[F0X7713]

*bump* ^_^

[nedz]

Rangers get Manyshot for free at Ranger 6, which is level 10 for this build. So Greater Manyshot at 12th ?
The Alternative is to delay Scout 4 until 10th, in which case you will get Ranger 6 at level 9 and this means you can take Greater Manyshot then. It will delay your scout bonus feat until 10th however.
This is delayed gratification but you will have a major bump of three feats at levels 9 and 10.
Two options

Level 6: Improved Skirmish Level 9: Swift Hunter
3d6 skirmish at 6th, 4d6 skirmish at 9th
Level 6: Swift Hunter Level 9: Improved Skirmish
2d6 skirmish at 8th, 4d6 skirmish at 9th

I've ignored the AC and favoured enemy bumps, they are secondary benefits to be frank.

[F0X7713]

I an probably going to take Swift hunter a bit earlier, I think I don't mind having improved skirmish until later ^_^

[Rhaegar14]

I an probably going to take Swift hunter a bit earlier, I think I don't mind having improved skirmish until later ^_^

Now that I number-crunch a bit, you would need ~9 levels of Ranger for Swift Hunter to give you more Skirmish damage than Improved Skirmish, and about 5 for them to be equal. If flaws are allowed, start as a Ranger at 1st level (also make sure you have at least 17 Dex), then take Weapon Focus (ranged weapon of choice), Point Blank Shot, and Dead Eye as your three 1st-level feats and you have Dex to damage.

If multiclassing penalties are not in play, I might recommend a Fighter dip somewhere around level 7. While it won't strictly be the best thing ever in the long run, it will get you Manyshot, then Greater Manyshot at level 9, and level 12 is a LOOOOOONG time to be waiting for multiple attacks on any weapon-based damage build. If you're starting at level 12, disregard this advice, but a small drop in damage in the long run is better than 5 or 6 levels of being behind or borderline useless. Hell, if you find yourself really impatient, take Fighter 2 and get Greater Manyshot at level 8, then Improved Skirmish or Swift Hunter (whichever you don't have yet) at 9.

[F0X7713]

1)Scout- Point Blank Shot, Skirmish (+1d6), trapfinding (BAB-0)
2)Ranger-1st favored enemy, Track, wild empathy (BAB-1)
3)Scout- Precise Shot, Battle fortitude +1, uncanny dodge (BAB-2)
4)Scout- Fast movement +10 ft., skirmish (+1d6, +1 AC), trackless
step (BAB-3)
5)Scout- Bonus feat- Swift hunter (BAB-4)
6)Ranger- Improved Skirmish, Combat style, thus getting Rapid Shot Skirmish(+2d6, +1 AC or +4d6, +3AC if I move 20+') (BAB-5)
7)Ranger- Endurance (BAB-6/1)
8) Ranger- Animal companion-Wolf, Skirmish(+2d6, +2 AC or +4d6, +4AC if I move 20+') (BAB-7/2)
9) Ranger- Manyshot, 2nd favored enemy, Skirmish(+2d6, +2 AC or +4d6, +4AC if I move 20+') (BAB-8/3)

Well, what do you guys think now after the revisions? I am probably going to have to take greater manyshot later at 12, unless I can get the feats from the flaws, because then I will take many shot at 7 and then greater at 9. I am really liking it so far, and thanks everyone for your help! Any more advice or comments or whatever would be greatly appreciated!! =)

Edit: Of course, if I can go with the Champion of the Wild and convince my DM to take the Travel Devotion Feat which will allow me to move my speed as a swift action, then I am surely doing that.
@ Rhaegar14: If I get to use flaws, which I think I am going to, can't I just get manyshot at 7 and then greater manyshot at 9, and not have to dip into fighter at all?

[Flickerdart]

Don't take Scout past level 4. It loses you BAB and gives you nothing.

[F0X7713]

Don't take Scout past level 4. It loses you BAB and gives you nothing.

Awesome Thanks ^_^

[Darrin]

1)Scout- Point Blank Shot, Skirmish (+1d6), trapfinding (BAB-0)
2)Ranger-1st favored enemy, Track, wild empathy (BAB-1)
3)Scout- Precise Shot, Battle fortitude +1, uncanny dodge (BAB-2)
4)Scout- Fast movement +10 ft., skirmish (+1d6, +1 AC), trackless
step (BAB-3)
5)Scout- Bonus feat- Swift hunter (BAB-4)
6)Ranger- Improved Skirmish, Combat style, thus getting Rapid Shot Skirmish(+2d6, +1 AC or +4d6, +3AC if I move 20+') (BAB-5)
7)Ranger- Endurance (BAB-6/1)
8) Ranger- Animal companion-Wolf, Skirmish(+2d6, +2 AC or +4d6, +4AC if I move 20+') (BAB-7/2)
9) Ranger- Manyshot, 2nd favored enemy, Skirmish(+2d6, +2 AC or +4d6, +4AC if I move 20+') (BAB-8/3)


I'd consider trying to get Greater Manyshot at 9th. If you wait on taking Scout 4 until 10th level, you've got Scout 3/Ranger 6, and you pick up Manyshot as your combat style, allowing you to take Greater Manyshot at 9th. You can then take Scout 4 and take Improved Skirmish as your Scout bonus feat.



Edit: Of course, if I can go with the Champion of the Wild and convince my DM to take the Travel Devotion Feat which will allow me to move my speed as a swift action, then I am surely doing that.


For Champion of the Wild, take Far Shot at Ranger 4, Improved Rapid Shot at Ranger 8, Sharp-Shooting at Ranger 11, and then the last one for Ranger 14 is a bit of a toss-up: Blind-Fight, Eyes in the Back of Your Head, Improved Favored Enemy, or Ranged Pin... nothing really great left, but one of these might be occasionally useful.

Also, you may want to consider adding Dragonborn of Bahumat (Races of the Dragon) to get flight. Flying archers vs. groundpounders = dead pincushions. Costs 100 GP, Con +2/Dex -2, which may muck things up a bit on a Dex-based build, but you can pointbuild around it or just pick up some Gloves of Dex. Dragonborn also adds Fighter as a favored class, in case you need to dip for a feat or two. You can also use Dragonborn to swap one of your existing feats (such as Track or Endurance) for Dragon Tail (natural weapon attack) or Dragon Wings (get a breath weapon *and* flight).

For your first two favored enemies, Swift Hunter lets you do precision damage to enemies that are normally immune: Constructs, Elementals, Oozes, Plants, and Undead. (Swarms, too, but that's a template, not a creature type, and not all swarms are vermin.) Your first two favored enemies should probably be Undead or Constructs, since those tend to be the most common. Elementals is probably best for your third pick... they don't show up as often, but the bigger ones can be very nasty. Oozes and Plants tend to be slow or immobile, so unless you blow a Spot check, you can usually walk away/around or burninate them from range.

There are a couple more ACFs to consider:

Spiritual Connection ACF (Complete Champion): Trades wild empathy (this never did anything for us except tell us an animal was hungry/angry... which was kinda self-evident to begin with) for speak with animals or speak with plants 3/day. You're much more likely to get a friendly reaction from an animal if you can speak to it directly, and you're more likely to get much more specific information out of the DM on key plot points.

Spiritual Guide ACF (Complete Champion): Trades your animal companion for a divine bonus on a handful of skills, and commune with nature 1/day. Actually, I don't recommend this one because I like Distracting Attack better (see below), but maybe your group can't take advantage of the flanking/sneak attack stuff.

Distracting Attack ACF (PHBII): Trades your animal companion for the ability to render an enemy as "flanked" with a successful attack. The Ranger's animal companion advances so slowly, it's basically just a bloody smear waiting to happen, sucking up resources to keep it alive that could be better spent elsewhere. If you've got a rogue or some other dedicated sneak-attacker in the party, get this. If you really want an animal companion, it's better to pick one up via the Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) feat. (If your DM allows flaws, there's one in Dragon #327 called "Loner" that lets you trade your animal companion for a bonus feat. But it also prevents you from getting one later, such as with Beastmaster or Wild Cohort.)

Skilled City-Dweller ACF (Cityscape Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)): Trade Ride for Tumble as one of your Ranger class skills. Skirmish doesn't trigger on a mount's movement (although *many* people ignore this as one of WotC's more boneheaded rulings), so you won't be riding much, and maxing out Tumble is a big part of being a highly-mobile skirmisher.

Arcane Hunter ACF (Complete Mage): Argh... extremely tempting, but dealing skirmish damage to undead/constructs at lower levels is probably the better deal.

Spell Reflection ACF (Complete Mage): I've never been clear on whether this is worth giving up Evasion. I'm leery of the limited uses per day, while you never run out of uses for Evasion. Never used this ACF myself... anyone else had a chance to use this?

There are some Planar Ranger substitution levels in the Planar Handbook, but unless you're trying to pick up a Planar Touchstone feat or the campaign involves a lot of planeshifting, you can probably skip those.



@ Rhaegar14: If I get to use flaws, which I think I am going to, can't I just get manyshot at 7 and then greater manyshot at 9, and not have to dip into fighter at all?

You get Manyshot at Ranger 6 via your Combat Style, so you want to avoid picking it up anywhere else... because otherwise when you get to Ranger 6, you get diddley squat. The quickest way to do this is Scout 3/Ranger 6, taking Greater Manyshot as your 9th level feat. The Scout 4 bonus feat offers a little more flexibility, since you can use it to pick up Improved Skirmish.

If you can use flaws, then you want to spend them on Travel Devotion (maybe twice, you can take it more than once) or Weapon Focus + Dead-Eye.

Something else to consider later: You get +1d6 Skirmish damage every 4 levels, but you can accelerate that a bit with some PrCs. A 2-level dip into Highland Stalker, for example, gets you +1d6 Skirmish, rather than waiting for another 4 levels of Ranger. Dragon Devotee and Unseen Seer can also advance Skirmish damage. In fact, if you want to multiclass the bejeezus out of Swift Hunter, you can get up to 8d6 Skirmish (10d6 with Improved Skirmish):

Scout 4/Ranger 6/Dragon Devotee 4/Unseen Seer 4/Highland Stalker 2

[GnomeGninjas]

Get a horse, it can move 20 feet(activating improved skirmish)without giving you a penalty and you can full attack. I don't even think you will need ranks in ride because you will probably have enough dexterity to auto pass guide with knees checks. You might want the horse as your animal companion because at 8th level a wolf won't contribute (much) to combat. (forgot about skirmish not triggering on a mounts move) Knowledge devotion is a good feat, even without any knowledge skills you will get +1 to hit and damage on all attacks. Also check out the energy bow. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a)

[F0X7713]

You get Manyshot at Ranger 6 via your Combat Style, so you want to avoid picking it up anywhere else... because otherwise when you get to Ranger 6, you get diddley squat. The quickest way to do this is Scout 3/Ranger 6, taking Greater Manyshot as your 9th level feat. The Scout 4 bonus feat offers a little more flexibility, since you can use it to pick up Improved Skirmish.

I don't mind loosing one feat if I can get Swift Hunter and Improved Skirmish by 6 and Manyshot and greater Manyshot by 9. Swift hunter and Imp. Skirmish is pretty important imo so that I can deal the damage I need to. Last night I was up until 1 making an excel sheet for my character, and I am quite please with the way it turned out. He is going to be quite a boss if you ask me.

Darrin, thank you for all your other thoughts and advice! I thought about trading the lonewolf flaw with the Vulnerable flaw, but I am like the idea of a companion more and more. Sure, it's a little extra effort, and it probably won't be as optimal, but that's okay with me. ^_^

Thank you everyone for all your help and advice! I will surely keep everyone posted on how my character turns out, and you'll be the first to know about any questions or concerns. But please!! Keep posting Ideas or thoughts, unless you have nothing else Playground. I think I am going to make a new thread for a Knight (since my Fiance is going to be playing the knight, and I am pretty sure she wont take all the time she needs to to do all the reading for her character).

Thanks again playground!!!! =D

[Flickerdart]

If you really want a companion, use the feat from the flaw to pick up a Wild Cohort. They scale better than a Ranger's pet, and don't care about what you take levels in.

[Gavinfoxx]

You should take your first level as Ranger. There are lots and lots of juicy alternative class features to choose! The main one I am thinking of is the trapfinding one, cause the DM likes traps, and you should have FULL trapfinding from level 1.

Skilled City Dweller (Tumble For Ride), from Cityscape Web Enhancement
Spiritual Connection, from Complete Champion
Trap Expert, from Dungeonscape
maybe Arcane Hunter, from Comlpete Mage.

[Flickerdart]

You should take your first level as Ranger. There are lots and lots of juicy alternative class features to choose! The main one I am thinking of is the trapfinding one, cause the DM likes traps, and you should have FULL trapfinding from level 1.

Skilled City Dweller (Tumble For Ride), from Cityscape Web Enhancement
Spiritual Connection, from Complete Champion
Trap Expert, from Dungeonscape
maybe Arcane Hunter, from Comlpete Mage.
Ranger at 1st level blows. Scout gives you 8 extra skill points and the same Trapfinding. Ranger gives you 2 extra HP and the ability to cry yourself to sleep.

[F0X7713]

Ranger at 1st level blows. Scout gives you 8 extra skill points and the same Trapfinding. Ranger gives you 2 extra HP and the ability to cry yourself to sleep.

LOL!!! So true though ^_^

[nedz]

Ranger at 1st level blows. Scout gives you 8 extra skill points and the same Trapfinding. Ranger gives you 2 extra HP and the ability to cry yourself to sleep.

Well Ranger 1 doesn't blow, but your right. Any Ranger ACFs you wanted could be taken when you take your first level of Ranger.

[Gavinfoxx]

Scouts don't get Disable Device at level 1. Rangers with the Trapfinding ACF do get Disable Device at level 1. If you are a trapfinder, you need Disable Device maxxed. You might even want to be human and take Able Learner or something.

[Yuukale]

they forgot to put DDevice as scout's skill. it was errata-ed

[Flickerdart]

Tch. If you're going to dip anything for Trapfinding, then it should be Barbarian for Trapkiller, because Trapkiller is badass.