Druid help?

[aphoticConniver]

Hello forums. I made a maaajor mistake when I made my druid, and forgot to take Natural Spell.
Here's what he is so far:

Male Human Druid 5/Scout 1/Daggerspell Shaper 4
Chaotic Neutral
STR 16, DEX 18, CON 16, INT 13, WIS 20, CHA 16
Feats: Improved Initiative, Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Defense, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Dagger)

Now, because my DM is a bit touchy on letting us retrain a few games into the campaign, what would you guys suggest as some awesome spells/morphs to help alleviate the problem until I get to 12th level?

[NOhara24]

Hello forums. I made a maaajor mistake when I made my druid, and forgot to take Natural Spell.
Here's what he is so far:

Male Human Druid 5/Scout 1/Daggerspell Shaper 4
Chaotic Neutral
STR 16, DEX 18, CON 16, INT 13, WIS 20, CHA 16
Feats: Improved Initiative, Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Defense, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Dagger)

Now, because my DM is a bit touchy on letting us retrain a few games into the campaign, what would you guys suggest as some awesome spells/morphs to help alleviate the problem until I get to 12th level?

Doesn't matter. Still a druid. You're fine. Just let your animal companion do the dirty work while you cast spells.

[aphoticConniver]

Doesn't matter. Still a druid. You're fine. Just let your animal companion do the dirty work while you cast spells.

The problem being... and this is embarassing... my Ape got pulled over a wall and massacred by enemy soldiers. How can I make myself more viable until a replacement is found?

[Leon]

Natural Spell is a major crutch that many are unable to release themselves from - you'll have a good Character without it and if you really need it pick it up later.

The core of what makes a Druid powerful is the great spell list - the pet and the shapes are all secondary to that and as long as you have your casting you will be a strong force to be reckoned with.

[Godskook]

The problem being... and this is embarassing... my Ape got pulled over a wall and massacred by enemy soldiers. How can I make myself more viable until a replacement is found?

Doesn't matter. Still a Druid.

Some helpful advice:

1.Deadly precision grants you some SA dice. There's two versions, I forget which books, and one's the double of the other(+1 for 1d6, +2 for 2d6).

2.Collision is flat 5 damage for +2 bonus. With a decent crit-chance, this is probably your highest source of damage without a caveat.

3.Viscious gives a +2d6 damage increase, and is highest source of damage you can find.

4.A similar thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201034

[gartius]

As a druid advances in level, the animal’s power increases as shown on the table. If a druid releases her companion from service, she may gain a new one by performing a ceremony requiring 24 uninterrupted hours of prayer. This ceremony can also replace an animal companion that has perished.

highlighted important bit here-you get your animal companion back after performing the ritual. That means your replacment companion is only a day away.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, just find some place to meditate for 24 hours an you get a new animal companion. Consider something better than an Ape, like Crocodile, Fleshraker, or if you want a flying mount, a Dire Bat. It doesn't matter if you are in the middle of a dungeon or on an airship, the animal will come.

[aphoticConniver]

Ok, I replaced my animal companion with a wolf, to take advantage of the bonuses, and it's the best I could do was an animal from the base list. Our DM is kind of a stickler. Also, he's running us through the Dungeonland campaign, so... any spells that would be recommended without spoiling anything?

[Private]

I can't remember what the casting progression for Dagger Spellshaper is, but the "Bite of the ____" spells, from Spell Compendium, are pretty great buffs if you are wading into melee. If you want to Wildshape, just cast it as a buff first then Wildshape, and you should be good to go.

As far as Wildshape forms, without hitting a prestige like Master of Many Forms or Planar Shepherd, you probably won't get a whole lot to work with. Your basic animals are about it. I love druids, trust me, but I just hate Wildshaping into animals.

Everyone else is right though. Druids will be competent regardless. If you want to focus on your Wildshaping, consider another prestige.

[aphoticConniver]

Since this is my first time playing a Daggerspell Shaper, are there any tips for, say, decent touch spells I should Daggercast? I plan on using the Bite line for a lot of buffing, and Call Lightning as my main ranged attack, seeing as a liberal application of Create Water, according to our DM, would allow 1/3rd of the damage to anyone standing in the puddle besides the target.

[NOhara24]

Since this is my first time playing a Daggerspell Shaper, are there any tips for, say, decent touch spells I should Daggercast? I plan on using the Bite line for a lot of buffing, and Call Lightning as my main ranged attack, seeing as a liberal application of Create Water, according to our DM, would allow 1/3rd of the damage to anyone standing in the puddle besides the target.

Daggerspell what now? Don't be silly, just sit back and let your wolf do the work. Either join him in tearing faces off, or sit back and throw save-or-suck spells or blasty types.

[Gavinfoxx]

Ok, I replaced my animal companion with a wolf, to take advantage of the bonuses, and it's the best I could do was an animal from the base list. Our DM is kind of a stickler. Also, he's running us through the Dungeonland campaign, so... any spells that would be recommended without spoiling anything?

Why is the best you could do an animal from the base list? You are a level 4 Druid. You are able to get stuff from the higher list than the base one.... Your score of Knowledge Nature when you Take 10 is presumably quite high, and you only need 10+HD to know about other stuff. Also, several of the creatures you could call are in summon nature's ally II (Crocodile Anyone??). Why are you limited to wolf?

Look at these stats:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#animalCompanion
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direBat.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/crocodile.htm

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dogRiding.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wolf.htm

Why would you EVER EVER EVER choose Wolf? You are not limited by what is appropriate to the area in any way other than the fact that you can't summon a wolf or something underwater. Why is the DM nerfing your class this way?

[Godskook]

Since this is my first time playing a Daggerspell Shaper, are there any tips for, say, decent touch spells I should Daggercast? I plan on using the Bite line for a lot of buffing, and Call Lightning as my main ranged attack, seeing as a liberal application of Create Water, according to our DM, would allow 1/3rd of the damage to anyone standing in the puddle besides the target.

If you read the link I posted, one of the guys on the second page gives a *LOT* of good druid spells for you, including some that can be used with daggercast(He'll reference the ability when describing that spell).

[Little Brother]

Most PrCs for druids are terrible. You should ignore them. Druid 12 is where you want to be.

Honestly, the best druids are Wildshape-focused ones. Get Aberrant Wildshape. Your WBL at 12 is 88K. Buy the Wildshape Amulet for 40K(Magic of Faerun) and the Skin of Ka-something(DR324). Each one boosts your effective WS level by 4, though the skin cloak thingy gives you a -6 penalty on Cha-based stuffs due to smelling like a rotting corpse(Which you can ignore by getting a Heward's Handy Haversack to store it in when not adventuring). Now you can Wildshape into an Ethergaunt(Black, I think, the high level one) for 17th level Wizard casting. Say hello to Shapechange. From there, you can turn into a Solar for high-level Cleric casting, or whatever you want, you're a high level wizard with a better meatshield than the fighter, a larger selection of spells(Theoretically, but they can just wish/shapechange into what you have, but you get it earlier), and can turn into a Cryohydra with the right feat, and can just refresh your spells by dismissing and redoing the Wildshape.

Or you can just turn into any of the other high-powered Aberrations. Or use Frozen shape or whatever to become a Cryohydra, or really whatever you want. Hell, you could even go Druid 10 or 11 with WS boosters, then turn into a Beholder, gouge your eye out, and go Beholder Mage.

Or, you could just go the Planar Shepard route. Or just sit back and throw spells with a super meatshield. Or just be a full caster and be a god. Whatever you do, take Natural Spell. Remember, Natural Bond lets you treat your Fleshraker as a no-adjustment pet. Also, TAKE NATURAL SPELL. Really, it's worth saying twice.

This help?

[Private]

Most PrCs for druids are terrible. You should ignore them. Druid 12 is where you want to be.

Honestly, the best druids are Wildshape-focused ones. Get Aberrant Wildshape. Your WBL at 12 is 88K. Buy the Wildshape Amulet for 40K(Magic of Faerun) and the Skin of Ka-something(DR324). Each one boosts your effective WS level by 4, though the skin cloak thingy gives you a -6 penalty on Cha-based stuffs due to smelling like a rotting corpse(Which you can ignore by getting a Heward's Handy Haversack to store it in when not adventuring). Now you can Wildshape into an Ethergaunt(Black, I think, the high level one) for 17th level Wizard casting. Say hello to Shapechange. From there, you can turn into a Solar for high-level Cleric casting, or whatever you want, you're a high level wizard with a better meatshield than the fighter, a larger selection of spells(Theoretically, but they can just wish/shapechange into what you have, but you get it earlier), and can turn into a Cryohydra with the right feat, and can just refresh your spells by dismissing and redoing the Wildshape.

Or you can just turn into any of the other high-powered Aberrations. Or use Frozen shape or whatever to become a Cryohydra, or really whatever you want. Hell, you could even go Druid 10 or 11 with WS boosters, then turn into a Beholder, gouge your eye out, and go Beholder Mage.

Or, you could just go the Planar Shepard route. Or just sit back and throw spells with a super meatshield. Or just be a full caster and be a god. Whatever you do, take Natural Spell. Remember, Natural Bond lets you treat your Fleshraker as a no-adjustment pet. Also, TAKE NATURAL SPELL. Really, it's worth saying twice.

This help?

I could be wrong, but as far as I know, Wildshaping, even with the Aberration Wildshape feat, does not give you any Ex, Su, or Spell-like abilities. I see no way that you would gain the Spellcasting abilities of the Ethergaunt just by being a Druid with a feat and some amulets.

I do, however, agree with the Cryohydra idea. Also, Planar Shepherd is obviously hands-down the best druid PrC, but it tends to be so good that DMs ban it.

I also don't think a DM would let you qualify for the Beholder Mage PrC just because you can Wildshape into a beholder.

[Gavinfoxx]

There is the spell Enhance Wild Shape, and also Exalted Wild Shape feat gets you some abilities, which might cause you to get more stuff from normal animal forms, and also Planar Shepherd does get you some useful stuff... there are ways to get SOME useful abilities, here and there...

[aphoticConniver]

The problem being is that I'm already locked into the choices I already made for my class, although I'm looking at taking possibly Master of Many Forms for 11th level by fudging around my feats a teeny bit, seeing as TWD and II are near useless. Also, I was chosen as the group's main offensive spellcaster, and we have a Cleric, a Rogue, and a Paladin besides myself.

EDIT: I'm currently awaiting an answer if I can flip to Druid 10, bringing up the argument that the rest of the party has 10 levels in their respective classes, and plan to prestige into Shadowdancer, possibly Blackguard, if the Paladin falls, and Radiant Servant of Pelor.

[Private]

The problem being is that I'm already locked into the choices I already made for my class, although I'm looking at taking possibly Master of Many Forms for 11th level by fudging around my feats a teeny bit, seeing as TWD and II are near useless. Also, I was chosen as the group's main offensive spellcaster, and we have a Cleric, a Rogue, and a Paladin besides myself.

EDIT: I'm currently awaiting an answer if I can flip to Druid 10, bringing up the argument that the rest of the party has 10 levels in their respective classes, and plan to prestige into Shadowdancer, possibly Blackguard, if the Paladin falls, and Radiant Servant of Pelor.

If your DM allows Planar Shepherd, it really doesn't matter what you start with, because you will be full WIN. Otherwise, straight Druid is a good option, and MoMF is great for Wildshaping, but will give you no spellcasting progression. If your party wants you to be the caster, that won't be your best choice.

[aphoticConniver]

If your DM allows Planar Shepherd, it really doesn't matter what you start with, because you will be full WIN. Otherwise, straight Druid is a good option, and MoMF is great for Wildshaping, but will give you no spellcasting progression. If your party wants you to be the caster, that won't be your best choice.

Couple of things. I'm not sure how useful Planar Shepherd would be, seeing as, in the current world, all Summon spells are rendered useless, and I don't think the planes would spill over. Are there any other decent PrCs to give full casting, or is straight druid best?

[Leon]

If you are playing a "caster" the not having wildshape or natural spell is going to be no loss.
Holt Warden from Complete Champ is a good one, may require a bit of hand wave to get in but other wise its a good plant orientated caster with some neat abilities and class features that stack or change depending if you already have that ability from elsewhere.

[Godskook]

Most PrCs for druids are terrible. You should ignore them. Druid 12 is where you want to be.

.......

This help?

Miss the part where he's already in Daggerspell Shaper?

[aphoticConniver]

Question about the Planar Shepherd: Is it possible to use the "normal" planes for the class? Ethereal, Shadow, Astral, all that jazz. Because we're not in Eberron, and I'm a bit doubtful he'll let me take the class with planes that powerful.

[Little Brother]

I could be wrong, but as far as I know, Wildshaping, even with the Aberration Wildshape feat, does not give you any Ex, Su, or Spell-like abilities. I see no way that you would gain the Spellcasting abilities of the Ethergaunt just by being a Druid with a feat and some amulets.

Wild Shape (Su)
At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the alternate form special ability, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. Each time you use wild shape blah blah blah

A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume one or more specific alternate forms.
...
The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.

Medium-Size Aberration (Extraplanar)
...
Special Attacks: Enslave, spells, stupefying gaze

Miss the part where he's already in Daggerspell Shaper?I was under the impression that he was still kicking around the build.

It doesn't matter, though. He can still buy the wildshape boosters and get Aberrant Wildshape.

By the way: Beg and plead for the ability to retrain ITWF and TWD. They are terrible.I mean, really. They don't affect your wildshaping, and when you aren't an animal, you really should not be in melee.That's what your pet is there for. Or, you can go to a town and buy a couple of PsyRefs. It'll cost a bit, but you'll want a bunch of other things, and don't want those.

[aphoticConniver]

Ok, here's what I have if he lets me go to a 10th level druid. I plan on taking Planar Shepherd next level, so if anyone could answer my question about using core planes as focus, that'd be cool.
Varkus Treeblade
Female Human Druid 10
Chaotic Neutral
Representing Jason
Strength
16
(+3)
Dexterity
18
(+4)
Constitution
16
(+3)
Intelligence
13
(+1)
Wisdom
20
(+5)
Charisma
16
(+3)
Size:
Medium
Height:
5' 8"
Weight:
110 lb
Skin:
Pale
Eyes:
Blue
Hair:
Blonde Wavy


Total Hit Points: 87
Speed: 30 feet
Armor Class: 18 = 10 +4 [leather] +4 [dexterity]
Touch AC: 14
Flat-footed: 14
Initiative modifier:
+4
= +4 [dexterity]
Fortitude save:
+10
= 7 [base] +3 [constitution]
Reflex save:
+7
= 3 [base] +4 [dexterity]
Will save:
+12
= 7 [base] +5 [wisdom]
Attack (handheld):
+10/+5
= 7 [base] +3 [strength]
Attack (unarmed):
+10/+5
= 7 [base] +3 [strength]
Attack (missile):
+11/+6
= 7 [base] +4 [dexterity]
Grapple check:
+10/+5
= 7 [base] +3 [strength]
Light load:
Medium load:
Heavy load:
Lift over head:
Lift off ground:
Push or drag:
76 lb. or less
77-153 lb.
154-230 lb.
230 lb.
460 lb.
1150 lb.
Languages:
Common Druidic Sylvan
+1 Corrosive Dagger [1d4+1d6+3, crit 19-20/x2, range inc 10 ft., 1 lb., light, piercing]
Dagger [1d4+2, crit 19-20/x2, range inc 10 ft., 1 lb., light, piercing]
+2 Leather armor [light; +4 AC; max dex +7; check penalty 0; 15 lb.]
Feats:
Two-Weapon Fighting

Nightbringer Initiate

Fast Wild Shape

Extra Wild Shape

Extend Spell

Traits:
Skill Name
Key
Ability
Skill
Modifier
Ability
Modifier
Ranks
Misc.
Modifier
Appraise
Int
1 =
+1


Balance
Dex*
6 =
+4

+2 [tumble]
Bluff
Cha
3 =
+3


Climb
Str*
3 =
+3


Concentration
Con
3 =
+3


Craft_1
Int
9 =
+1
+8

Craft_2
Int
1 =
+1


Craft_3
Int
1 =
+1


Diplomacy
Cha
3 =
+3


Disguise
Cha
3 =
+3


Escape Artist
Dex*
4 =
+4


Forgery
Int
1 =
+1


Gather Information
Cha
3 =
+3


Handle Animal
Cha
11 =
+3
+8

Heal
Wis
5 =
+5


Hide
Dex*
16 =
+4
12

Intimidate
Cha
3 =
+3


Jump
Str*
5 =
+3

+2 [tumble]
Knowledge (nature)
Int
13 =
+1
+10
+2 [druid]
Knowledge (planes)
Int
5 =
+1
+4

Listen
Wis
13 =
+5
+8

Move Silently
Dex*
16 =
+4
12

Perform_1
Cha
3 =
+3


Perform_2
Cha
3 =
+3


Perform_3
Cha
3 =
+3


Perform_4
Cha
3 =
+3


Perform_5
Cha
3 =
+3


Ride
Dex
6 =
+4

+2 [handle animal]
Search
Int
1 =
+1


Sense Motive
Wis
5 =
+5


Spot
Wis
5 =
+5


Survival
Wis
7 =
+5

+2 [druid]
Swim
Str**
3 =
+3


Tumble
Dex*
10 =
+4
+6

Use Rope
Dex
4 =
+4


* = check penalty for wearing armor
Craft_1 >=5 ranks gives +2 on related appraise checks.
Handle Animal >=5 ranks gives +2 on wild empathy checks.
Know Nature >=5 ranks gives +2 on survival checks above ground.
Zero-level Druid spells: 6 per day

First-level Druid spells: 6 (4+2) per day

Second-level Druid spells: 5 (4+1) per day

Third-level Druid spells: 4 (3+1) per day

Fourth-level Druid spells: 4 (3+1) per day

Fifth-level Druid spells: 3 (2+1) per day

Human:
Extra feat at first level (already included)
Four extra skill points at first level (already included)
One extra skill point at each additional level (already included)
Druid:
Spontaneous Casting (summon nature's ally)
Animal Companion
Wild Empathy
+2 on Knowledge (nature) and Survival (already included)
Woodland Stride (level 2)
Trackless Step (level 3)
Resist Nature's Lure (level 4)
Wild Shape (level 5)
Venom Immunity (level 9)
A Thousand Faces (level 13)
Timeless Body (level 15)
High wisdom gains bonus spells daily





Class
HP rolled

Level 1:
Druid
8

Level 2:
Druid
8

Level 3:
Druid
1

Level 4:
Druid
8
+1 to wisdom
Level 5:
Druid
2

Level 6:
Druid
6

Level 7:
Druid
8

Level 8:
Druid
7
+1 to wisdom
Level 9:
Druid
3

Level 10:
Druid
6



Varkus Treeblade's Equipment:
16 lb

2 lb
_____
18 lb
Weapons / Armor / Shield (from above)
Holly and mistletoe
Spell component pouch

Total
Also...
40 ft. rope +1 Corrosive Ironwood Dagger named "Kingslayer" +2 Leather Armor
Krovall
Medium-Size Animal
Hit dice: 63
Initiative +4 (Dex)
Speed 50 feet
AC: 22 ( +4 Dex +8 natural)
Attacks: Bite +10 melee (Weapon Finesse);
Damage 1d8+4 (bite);
Special Qualities: Scent
Saves: Fort +8; Ref +10; Will +3
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 18, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Hide +5; Listen +6; Move Silently +6; Spot +10; Survival +1;
Feats: Weapon Finesse (Bite)
Improved Natural Attack
Link, share spells
Evasion
Devotion
Multiattack (or a second primary attack at -5, as applicable)
Bonus tricks: 4

[Madara]

Why would you EVER EVER EVER choose Wolf? You are not limited by what is appropriate to the area in any way other than the fact that you can't summon a wolf or something underwater. Why is the DM nerfing your class this way?

:smallsmile: hahaha!! "Why is your DM nerfing the Druid class?" :smallbiggrin:

Priceless... *Wipes a tear from his eye*

[Randomguy]

<snip>

YOU DON'T GET SPELLS FROM TURNING INTO SOMETHING. Ever. Not even with shapechange. Tier 1 classes are powerful enough without being able to get the abilities of other tier 1 classes. Check the rules compedium; it specifies spellcasting as being neither extraordinary nor supernatural, meaning you just can't get it that way.


You can still shapechange into something that has supernatural abilities that mimic spells, though. Like the gibbering orb.

[Little Brother]

YOU DON'T GET SPELLS FROM TURNING INTO SOMETHING. Ever. Not even with shapechange. Tier 1 classes are powerful enough without being able to get the abilities of other tier 1 classes. Check the rules compedium; it specifies spellcasting as being neither extraordinary nor supernatural, meaning you just can't get it that way.


You can still shapechange into something that has supernatural abilities that mimic spells, though. Like the gibbering orb.Give me a page.

The rules compendium, the PHB(P180-ish, I think), the MM, and so on said that everything has a type. Things with no listed type are Extraordinary. Therefore, you get spells from turning into things with spells.

One of the reason tier 1 classes are tier 1 is that they all get each other's abilities.

[Leon]

Why would you EVER EVER EVER choose Wolf?

Why not, nothing has to be absolutely the best mechanical choice. If it suits the person playing its a good choice.

[sonofzeal]

Why would you EVER EVER EVER choose Wolf? You are not limited by what is appropriate to the area in any way other than the fact that you can't summon a wolf or something underwater. Why is the DM nerfing your class this way?
....possibly because he was in a forest? Riding Dogs are from planes, Dire Bats are from deserts, and crocs you can probably guess.

Also, familiarity.

Also, maybe he wanted the Trip special attack, but base land speed was more important than combat ability for various utility reasons.

Also, thematic reasons. If the character has a lupine theme, there's nothing wrong with keeping with that even when there's other good options. It's not like he'll suck as a result. He's still a caster with a good list, and a lot of skillpoints to spend on useful skills.

[Private]

Give me a page.

The rules compendium, the PHB(P180-ish, I think), the MM, and so on said that everything has a type. Things with no listed type are Extraordinary. Therefore, you get spells from turning into things with spells.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=12959208
One of the reason tier 1 classes are tier 1 is that they all get each other's abilities.

There is no such place that any rule is specifically stated to go either way, from what I understand. Read how these people argued it out.

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3908.0

I don't want to hijack this thread to argue about something that the OP doesn't care about, but realize that you are in the vast minority if you think Wildshape gives you the spells of the form you assume.

[ShriekingDrake]

YOU DON'T GET SPELLS FROM TURNING INTO SOMETHING. Ever.

I'm not sure--one way or the other--whether this is true (mostly because I've never seen a rule that states it directly one way or the other). Be that as it may, there are certainly ways to get the spell-like abilities of creatures. For instance, druids who can wild shape into elementals get: "In addition to the normal effects of wild shape, the druid gains all the elemental’s extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities." Granted, the base elementals don't seem to have any spell-like abilities, but I would not put it past optimizers to find a way to leverage this.

[Little Brother]

There is no such place that any rule is specifically stated to go either way, from what I understand. Read how these people argued it out.

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3908.0

I don't want to hijack this thread to argue about something that the OP doesn't care about, but realize that you are in the majority if you think Wildshape gives you the spells of the form you assume.Fixed, unless you're going to argue that any rage beyond the typical one(IE Tireless Rage, Mighty Rage, Whirling Frenzy, and so on) are all disabled in an AMF.

But, sure, I'll drop it.

@OP: If you really want a wolf, at least get a dire wolf or something. Or Warbred. Or anything. Your wolf will die in seconds.

[Gavinfoxx]

You do know that you don't actually have to choose an animal from a place you are, because the creature isn't coming from nearby. It is coming to you, out of the mists from wherever it was, as it were, because you are a champion of nature, and nature provides to you. And that Druids tend to have extremely high Knowledge: Nature, so they are basically familiar with all animals ever, except possibly EXTREMELY high hit dice animals? Read the description of knowledge nature. Basic familiarity with an animal is DC 10+ HD of the animal. You can Take 10 on knowledge skills. What exactly is the total score you have on Knowledge Nature when you take 10 on it, hmmm?

Also, lets see some issues with that build in the spoilers:

1.) Strength is high. you are level 10. You don't need to spend any time outside of Wild Shape unless this is an urban campaign, so you don't need strength. Further, you won't be fighting outside of wild shape, so this is superfluous

2.) Dexterity is high. You are level 10. See Strength. You have absolutely no reason to spend any time outside of Wild Shape past level 8.

3.) You seem to be fighting with daggers with two weapon fighting for some reason. You have no reason to do this. Do not buy the daggers, remove two weapon fighting. If you want to fight with multiple weapons, fight with claws. If you want magic weapons, get a necklace that enchants your natural attacks, either the one from the DMG or the one from Savage Species.

4.) You have the feat Fast Wild Shape for some reason. It's completely unnecessary; you are going to spend most of the time when there might be trouble in Wild Shape anyway, so there is no reason to wait until combat starts to Wild Shape. You dont have to spend any time outside fo Wild Shape, remember.

5.) Your armor is not Wilding Armor, it is not Leather Barding for your favorite fighting form, it is not Beastform Armor, and it does not have a Wilding Clasp attached to it. Remember, spend most of your time in Wild Shape to fight.

6.) You don't have your only necessary feat: Natural Spell

7.) You don't have any items that let you communicate while in Wild Shape. There is even one in the DMG, the Cursed Amulet of Thought Projection. However, the MIC one, Pearl of Speech, is far superior. Get one for your animal companion, too

8.) You seem to have several feats focused on Wild Shape, but you don't take any of the good ones that you can take at level 9 (after you change Natural Spell for your level 6 feat, I mean), like, for example, Frozen Wild Shape, or if you change to Neutral Good, Exalted Wild Shape.

[aphoticConniver]

You do know that you don't actually have to choose an animal from a place you are, because the creature isn't coming from nearby. It is coming to you, out of the mists from wherever it was, as it were, because you are a champion of nature, and nature provides to you. And that Druids tend to have extremely high Knowledge: Nature, so they are basically familiar with all animals ever, except possibly EXTREMELY high hit dice animals? Read the description of knowledge nature. Basic familiarity with an animal is DC 10+ HD of the animal. You can Take 10 on knowledge skills. What exactly is the total score you have on Knowledge Nature when you take 10 on it, hmmm?

Also, lets see some issues with that build in the spoilers:

1.) Strength is high. you are level 10. You don't need to spend any time outside of Wild Shape unless this is an urban campaign, so you don't need strength. Further, you won't be fighting outside of wild shape, so this is superfluous

2.) Dexterity is high. You are level 10. See Strength. You have absolutely no reason to spend any time outside of Wild Shape past level 8.

3.) You seem to be fighting with daggers with two weapon fighting for some reason. You have no reason to do this. Do not buy the daggers, remove two weapon fighting. If you want to fight with multiple weapons, fight with claws. If you want magic weapons, get a necklace that enchants your natural attacks, either the one from the DMG or the one from Savage Species.

4.) You have the feat Fast Wild Shape for some reason. It's completely unnecessary; you are going to spend most of the time when there might be trouble in Wild Shape anyway, so there is no reason to wait until combat starts to Wild Shape. You dont have to spend any time outside fo Wild Shape, remember.

5.) Your armor is not Wilding Armor, it is not Leather Barding for your favorite fighting form, it is not Beastform Armor, and it does not have a Wilding Clasp attached to it. Remember, spend most of your time in Wild Shape to fight.

6.) You don't have your only necessary feat: Natural Spell

7.) You don't have any items that let you communicate while in Wild Shape. There is even one in the DMG, the Cursed Amulet of Thought Projection. However, the MIC one, Pearl of Speech, is far superior. Get one for your animal companion, too

8.) You seem to have several feats focused on Wild Shape, but you don't take any of the good ones that you can take at level 9 (after you change Natural Spell for your level 6 feat, I mean), like, for example, Frozen Wild Shape, or if you change to Neutral Good, Exalted Wild Shape.

The problem is, I'm kinda stuck because I had to replace him in, like, 5 minutes and I just picked the first decent one I saw. I'll talk to him about it, but what would some decent Core Rulebook ones be?

1: We rolled our stats, and that's what I happened to get.
2: See 1.
3: If he even lets me switch from my Druid/Scout/Daggerspell Shaper combination, I can't change any of my equipment.
4: I tend to wait until combat to cast Call Lightning so, in case I cannot move or get to an opponent in Wild Shape, I still have an action to do.
5: See 3.
6: He sees me as an extremely overpowered character after some antics pouncing on his soldiers with a dire lion, so I'm not allowed to take Natural Spell until level 12.
7: See 3.
8: I'm staying CN, but you bring up a good point about Frozen Wild Shape. What are some good forms to use with the feat?

EDIT: Good news! I'm able to switch to Druid 10/Planar Shepherd 1 when we level up.

[sonofzeal]

8: I'm staying CN, but you bring up a good point about Frozen Wild Shape. What are some good forms to use with the feat?
Cryohydra. That is all.

[aphoticConniver]

Cryohydra. That is all.

Isn't that a Huge creature? I wouldn't be able to use that until 15, unless I'm mistaken. Any Large forms that would be useful?

[Gavinfoxx]

Isn't that a Huge creature? I wouldn't be able to use that until 15, unless I'm mistaken. Any Large forms that would be useful?

Well, okay. You're right on this... you could get a change (perhaps via an Atonement cast by an Exalted, Neutral Good character?) to Neutral Good and take Exalted Wild Shape at level 9, and then take Dragon Wild Shape at level 12, and Frozen Wild Shape at level 15 for Cryohydra.

Wait, he only lets you get Natural Spell at L12? Sigh...

Also, if he doesn't want to let some stuff change, use the retraining rules in Players Handbook II. Look at those extensively, and try to use as many of them as possible! Also, just sell some of your gear... like that dagger. Will you be able to train out stuff when you get Natural Spell, or before then? And the utility of Frozen Wild Shape depends on if he lets you use things from more than just MM1 and Frostburn that have frozen themes... otherwise Exalted Wild Shape probably gives you the most bang for your buck, especially if you can get Assume Supernatural Ability or something.

Lets see here...

Get an Atonement to Exalted Neutral Good. Use rebuilding/retraining rules from Players Handbook II as much as possible. Sell your gear and get useful stuff. Remember those pearls of speech are like 750 gp or something crazy low like that!

So this is the best I can figure as to what is going on, and my suggestions:

L1: Two-Weapon Fighting (Retrain to something like Assume Supernatural Ability ASAP. Remember, at level 1, you can assume new forms magically, via spellcasting, so you qualify for it. Choose something broadly useful which is in lots of creatures like Fast Healing or something.)
Hu: Nightbringer Initiate
L3: Extend Spell
L6: Fast Wild Shape (retrain to something like Multiattack when you get access to Natural Spell, since you can wild shape by level 6, you qualify for multiattack at level 6)
L9: Extra Wild Shape (retrain to Exalted Wild Shape as soon as you get access to Natural Spell and become exalted/Neutral Good. Or maybe even immediately as soon as you get access to Exalted/NG!)
L12: Natural Spell (or Dragon Wild Shape if, since Dragons are natural spellcasters, he lets you cast spells while in Dragon Wild Shape forms without access to Natural Spell. Ask him about that.)
L15: Dragon Wild Shape or Frozen Wild Shape (or Natural Spell if the dragon spellcasting thing works and you take Dragon Wild Shape at L12)

Here's a list of Dragon Wild Shape forms:

http://web.archive.org/web/20080919131238/http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-404381

Good luck!

[aphoticConniver]

Well, okay. You're right on this... you could get a change (perhaps via an Atonement cast by an Exalted, Neutral Good character?) to Neutral Good and take Exalted Wild Shape at level 9, and then take Dragon Wild Shape at level 12, and Frozen Wild Shape at level 15 for Cryohydra. EDIT: Natural Spell at level 12, if that is the earliest you can get it...

EDIT:

Also, if he doesn't want to let some stuff change, use the retraining rules in Players Handbook II. Look at those extensively. Also, just sell some of your gear... like that dagger. Will you be able to train out stuff when you get Natural Spell? Why doesn't he want you to have Natural Spell by level freaking 10??? And Frozen Wild Shape depends on if he lets you use things from more than just MM1 and Frostburn that have frozen themes... otherwise Exalted Wild Shape probably gives you the most bang for your buck.

Lets see here...

Get an Atonement to Exalted Neutral Good. Use rebuilding/retraining rules from Players Handbook II as much as possible! Sell your gear and get useful stuff. Remember those pearls of speech are like 750 gp or something crazy low like that!

So this is the best I can figure as to what is going on, and my suggestions:

L1: Two-Weapon Fighting (Retrain to something like Assume Supernatural Ability ASAP. Remember, at level 1, you can assume new forms magically, via spellcasting, so you qualify)
Hu: Nightbringer Initiate
L3: Extend Spell
L6: Fast Wild Shape (retrain to something like Multiattack when you get access to Natural Spell)
L9: Extra Wild Shape (retrain to Exalted Wild Shape as soon as you get access to Natural Spell and become exalted/Neutral Good. Or maybe even immediately as soon as you get access to Exalted/NG!)
L12: Natural Spell (or Dragon Wild Shape if, since Dragons are natural spellcasters, he lets you cast spells while in Dragon Wild Shape forms without access to Natural Spell. Ask him about that.)
L15: Dragon Wild Shape or Frozen Wild Shape (or Natural Spell if the dragon spellcasting thing works and you take Dragon Wild Shape at L12)

Here's a list of Dragon Wild Shape forms:

http://web.archive.org/web/20080919131238/http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-404381

Good luck!

The reason I wasn't planning on an alignment change is because we have a LG Paladin, an LG Cleric, a NG Rogue, and a CN Druid being myself. Would Chaotic Good perhaps work? I won't have as much fun as, say, being CN, but if Exalted Wild Shape is that big a thing then I suppose it would be worth it.
And I'll see what I can do about retraining. Thanks for the help!

[Gavinfoxx]

Druids have to be Neutral. Neutral Good is the only alignment that an Exalted Druid can be.

As for the Planar Shepard plane, remember that "Core" D&D is Greyhawk, so look at the planar cosmology of Greyhawk, as well as the various planar books that talk about the Great Wheel.

I generally prefer the planes that are 'pure nature' sorts of Planes -- Arboria and such. But in general, pick a plane based on either a theme you like, OR forms you want... remember the first set of creatures you get with Planar Shepard is Magical Beast Wild Shape, so start scouring books for useful, low HD, Magical Beast forms. With Exalted Wild Shape, Planar Shepard's Magical Beast Wild Shape, the level 4 spell Enhance Wild Shape, and maybe even Assume Supernatural Ability for something useful like Fast Healing or something (ie, for when you get Cryohydra...), you can get a LOT of useful stuff. Remember, the planes of pure nature tend to have most all the Magical Beast type creatures, so you can get stuff like Earth Gliding from magical beasts (very useful, from the Stone Flyer creature from the FR Underdark book), or other useful abilities, like burrowing through stone (from Bluespawn Ambusher, from Monster Manual IV, in addition to the same from Thoqqua, for example). Girallon is a solid combat form in general, and can probably wear certain types of armor without major modification.

Mostly, look at the various polymorph threads for ideas of creatures you might like to change into, and choose a plane where these creatures are likely to exist (again, the pure nature planes are likely to have the most Magical Beasts...)

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2811
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=519
http://web.archive.org/web/20080611085922/http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-226959

[Leon]

Would Chaotic Good perhaps work? I won't have as much fun as, say, being CN

Aside from not progressing as a Druid since they require a N in their Alignment, if you want Exalted you will need to be NG




You do know that you don't actually have to choose an animal from a place you are, because the creature isn't coming from nearby. It is coming to you, out of the mists from wherever it was, as it were, because you are a champion of nature, and nature provides to you. And that Druids tend to have extremely high Knowledge: Nature, so they are basically familiar with all animals ever, except possibly EXTREMELY high hit dice animals? Read the description of knowledge nature. Basic familiarity with an animal is DC 10+ HD of the animal. You can Take 10 on knowledge skills. What exactly is the total score you have on Knowledge Nature when you take 10 on it, hmmm?

Still makes a Wolf a valid choice for a Companion.



1.) Strength is high. you are level 10. You don't need to spend any time outside of Wild Shape unless this is an urban campaign, so you don't need strength. Further, you won't be fighting outside of wild shape, so this is superfluous

2.) Dexterity is high. You are level 10. See Strength. You have absolutely no reason to spend any time outside of Wild Shape past level 8.

They have Overall good stats so they may as well have them used - Only thing i'd change is move the 13 into CHA and put the 16 in INT




3.) You seem to be fighting with daggers with two weapon fighting for some reason. You have no reason to do this. Do not buy the daggers, remove two weapon fighting. If you want to fight with multiple weapons, fight with claws. If you want magic weapons, get a necklace that enchants your natural attacks, either the one from the DMG or the one from Savage Species.

Daggers and TWF are part of Daggerspell shaper PrC of which the PC has 4 levels in. It has several abilities tied to the daggers you wield.




6.) You don't have your only necessary feat: Natural Spell

No feat is required to play a character (unless its a requirement for a PrC that you want for your PC)

[Coidzor]

Why not, nothing has to be absolutely the best mechanical choice. If it suits the person playing its a good choice.

That's... That's not how good and bad choices work. If it fit the situation, on the other hand...


I'm not sure--one way or the other--whether this is true (mostly because I've never seen a rule that states it directly one way or the other). Be that as it may, there are certainly ways to get the spell-like abilities of creatures. For instance, druids who can wild shape into elementals get: "In addition to the normal effects of wild shape, the druid gains all the elemental’s extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities." Granted, the base elementals don't seem to have any spell-like abilities, but I would not put it past optimizers to find a way to leverage this.

From the later MMs, there's a few creatures who explicitly have (EX) abilities that grant them spellcasting who are otherwise modeled in the same way as other creatures with innate spellcasting.

So there's that. Most of them would require something like MOMF to transform into in the first place though, IIRC. Or Shapechange...

[Gavinfoxx]

Exalted Wild Shape makes all your animal forms Celestial, and gives you blink dog and unicorn forms, WITH all the Supernatural Abilities intact, and possibly gives you other magical beast forms as well...

Also... you might want to look at this thing I wrote some time ago:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/17bYfVxcXM8uKmxtQAOHgKN7MNchvqcMw31R-k-NPrTw/edit?authkey=CLWf4ugH



No feat is required to play a character (unless its a requirement for a PrC that you want for your PC)


Actually, Natural Spell has long been regarded as the only necessary feat for a Druid who does not trade away her Wildshape for Shapeshifting Druid. It's known as the main example of a feat tax, which should have been part of the class, and characters are generally (barring corner cases), advised to take the feat as soon as they are allowed to do so.

[Leon]

That's... That's not how good and bad choices work. If it fit the situation, on the other hand...


If its what the person feels like is a good choice for the PC then its a good choice for them even if the rest of the world thinks otherwise. I like Boars and will try to have one as a Companion for such a class where ever possible (there have been times when a Boar doesn't fit - such as a PC who was from a arboreal culture and flew a lot, didn't make sense to have one so i chose a hawk)

[Gavinfoxx]

If its what the person feels like is a good choice for the PC then its a good choice for them even if the rest of the world thinks otherwise. I like Boars and will try to have one as a Companion for such a class where ever possible (there have been times when a Boar doesn't fit - such as a PC who was from a arboreal culture and flew a lot, didn't make sense to have one so i choose a hawk)

Leon.. the thing is, someone is here for mechanical advice. He is asking for help playing the numbers aspect of the game better. He is asking for ways to achieve advantage. So we are responding with ideas to do that, irrelevant of 'value' judgement on the choices. We give him what is mechanically optimal for his situation, and he makes a choice on whether or not those abilities fit his character or not. It's the same with the wolf thing... a level 1 druid could choose a Riding Dog animal companion and just say it is a breed that looks like a wolf, or just call it a wolf that happens to have the stats of a riding dog. Whatever. Just like a character with access to level 4 animal companions should probably take a Fleshraker, Crocodile, or Dire Bat. These increase the amount of versatility the character has, the things he can do, the problems he can solve, and what he brings to the table.

Remember that Druids are essentially divinely empowered champions of nature. At like level 12, maybe level 15, and CERTAINLY level 18, they are essentially demigods of nature. They are the class that is perhaps the least constrained by their culture out there, and they innately know things that other people don't know. It doesn't MATTER what their base cultures says, or what they could possibly have experienced, because when (by meditating and communing), they get a +16 check to Knowledge Nature, that means that they know a lot of details about damn near every animal anywhere -- because Nature Itself empowers them.

And if you are from an arborial culture ... why didn't you choose a Dire Bat (L4 animal companion), or Dire Eagle (L7 animal companion) or Dragonhawk (L10 Animal Companion) or Roc (L16 animal companion)? They all fit, and they are BETTER than just an Eagle!

[Coidzor]

If its what the person feels like is a good choice for the PC then its a good choice for them even if the rest of the world thinks otherwise.

No, it isn't. To say that is to make the entire concept of good and bad meaningless.

[aphoticConniver]

Just another question: Say I would like to stay CN, to balance out our party and, seeing as our Paladin is.. well.. a paladin, and my character was just turned into a lady... I think I'll have fun taking advantage of chivalry. But that's beside the point. Best plane, both for magical beast forms and the Planar Bubble ability?

EDIT: On the discussion about good/bad, I believe it's not a good or bad choice, more a mechanically good vs a flavorfully good choice.

[Gavinfoxx]

There are two axis of choice:

Mechanically optimal ------ Mechanically Suboptimal

Flavor appropriate for a given concept ---- not flavor appropriate for a given concept

In other words, there are four quadrants of choice here. A Cross, not a line.

Ideally, we want to find ideas that are in the upper right quadrant -- that are both flavor appropriate for a given choice, AND mechanically optimal.

Anyway, OP: I've given you lots of ideas and lots of things to look into, and a series of questions to ask your DM (Will you allow chaotic good druids? Will you allow changes to how exalted wild shape works, perhaps renaming the feat and making it non exalted? Will you allow retraining? Can I sell my items for half their list value sometime soon? Can Dragon forms cast spells while wild shaped without needing Natural Spell? How about other talking forms like Unicorns, which can often cast spells too? Can I, as time goes on, ask what creatures, for wild shape purposes, are in my chosen plane and expect reasonable answers to the question? Are Wilding Clasps available? Are Necklaces of Natural Attack available? Monks Belts? Pearls of Speech? Can I find someone with the Atonement spell to change my alignment? Can I come up with Magical Beasts from various monster manuals to add to Exalted Wild Shape feat and show them to you? How about cold themed creatures for Frozen Wild Shape? Will I be able to retrain a large number of feats that suddenly become obsolete when I finally get Natural Spell? Why does he seem to think that 'soldiers' are supposed to be a real threat for characters at level 10, and a reason to delay Natural Spell to level 12? Mundane melee characters and creatures without lots of supernatural abilities or spellcasting are supposed to not be a threat by this point, etc. etc. etc.)

Lets put it this way. Wild Shaping into a Unicorn means you can talk while Wild Shaped. This might (ask the DM) mean you can cast spells without Natural Spell. Same with the Dragons.

[Leon]

Leon.. the thing is, someone is here for mechanical advice.
And they have happily chosen a Wolf as a Replacement for a lost companion. What ever advice you give doesn't mean they have to use it - they think wolves are a decent so its a good choice while you may think otherwise a Wolf is a valid mechanical choice for the player involved.



And if you are from an arborial culture ... why didn't you choose a Dire Bat (L4 animal companion), or Dire Eagle (L7 animal companion) or Dragonhawk (L10 Animal Companion) or Roc (L16 animal companion)? They all fit, and they are BETTER than just an Eagle!

The hawk worked well, no need to keep getting bigger and bigger animal when a small one did what i needed it to. Then again i don't need the companion for a melee substitute (or have a need to live in a animal form).

[Gavinfoxx]

What about as a flying mount? Was there any particular reason you were de-optimizing and choosing inferior choices? Was the rest of the party monk/fighter/paladin or something?

[Leon]

Winged Elf. Rest of party was Aristocrat/Wizard, Paladin/cleric/PrC (cant recall what PrC it was but the PC was very effective at melee damage and had a large Hp pool) and occasionally a Fighter/Rogue



I don't optimize, i try to make good characters and do so by how i think they should be/would do things. Sometimes that results in the PC having flaws or difficulties with other party members but they can often make for a better character in the end.

[aphoticConniver]

I've decided to go on an ice-theme. What are some decent cold-based spells?

[Coidzor]

Blizzard, Fimbulwinter, Sleetstorm, Control Winds, Control Weather.

Frostburn has a couple that lower the ambient temperature by a grade or two or three to make it so that people can get hypothermia and frostbite and such.

There's some grease-analogues that deal with ice as well, IIRC.

[Gavinfoxx]

Lots of great stuff in Frostburn.

I statted out a mostly-ice themed Druid to take out an encamped army.

She's basically a Stealth Bomber....

http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=54924

Blizzard, Call Avalanche, Boreal Wind, Arctic Haze, Obscuring Snow, Blood Snow, Snowsight...

Lots of spells to improve her ability to hide, her ability to see at night, and to rain icy death on an entire army, from standoff distance, from the air, as a Desmodu Guard Bat...

[aphoticConniver]

Alright, so the good news is that my DM is letting me, at 11th level, retrain to 10th level Druid. I would like to take the Planar Shepherd prestige class, so what would a decent plane be for that? Also, what are some good feats to swap ITWF, TWD, Improved Initiative, and Weapon Focus with, assuming the following:
1. I would like to stay CN.
2. Natural Spell is unavailable.
3. Preferably as close to Core as possible.

Much thanks for any help!

EDIT: I am also creating my own deity for the druid, themed around Soviet Russia for comedy reasons. Any tips would be much appreciated.

[nedz]

...
6: He sees me as an extremely overpowered character after some antics pouncing on his soldiers with a dire lion, so I'm not allowed to take Natural
...
EDIT: Good news! I'm able to switch to Druid 10/Planar Shepherd 1 when we level up.
Am I the only person to see a problem here ?


...
EDIT: I am also creating my own deity for the druid, themed around Soviet Russia for comedy reasons. Any tips would be much appreciated.

In Soviet Russia you create the gods. I think we are done here:smallbiggrin:

They should reside in Red Machanus, but thats not Chaotic, or is it ?
Maybe they are a parody of some lawful entity which has a realm in a Red coloured Mechanus analog sub plane of Limbo ?

[aphoticConniver]

Am I the only person to see a problem here ?


In Soviet Russia you create the gods. I think we are done here:smallbiggrin:

They should reside in Red Machanus, but thats not Chaotic, or is it ?
Maybe they are a parody of some lawful entity which has a realm in a Red coloured Mechanus analog sub plane of Limbo ?

Perhaps I worded it the wrong way. He's letting me retrain to Druid 10 next level, and I intend to take Planar Shepherd. It does seem a bit overpowered, and I'm our party's main damage-caster. So what would a good PrC to take that has full casting progression?