If you were to play a Mary Sue.... [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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Gobidobo

2012-03-23, 09:26 PM

What race would she be, and what would she wear?

lol

Calanon

2012-03-23, 09:29 PM

a human and a star fleet commanders uniform :smallwink:

Particle_Man

2012-03-23, 09:29 PM

I'm gonna go with Gold Dragon, because Gentlemen Prefer Blondes. :smallbiggrin:

Captain Six

2012-03-23, 09:32 PM

I'd play a Dungeon Master racial progression. Anything else runs the risk of failing or being wrong at some point.

Gobidobo

2012-03-23, 09:37 PM

a human and a star fleet commanders uniform :smallwink:

LOLOLOL That's a great answer! :biggrin: Very clever! LOL

I'm gonna go with Gold Dragon, because Gentlemen Prefer Blondes. :smallbiggrin:

Ohhh That's cute!!!! LOL :)

I'd play a Dungeon Master racial progression. Anything else runs the risk of failing or being wrong at some point.

LOL that's cute!

Johel

2012-03-23, 10:04 PM

Chaotic Good Drow Ranger, anyone ?

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2012-03-23, 10:06 PM

Chaotic Good Drow Ranger, anyone ?

Somebody already did that Mary Sue, you can't just copy it!

Coidzor

2012-03-23, 10:09 PM

Gestalt half-vampire Steel Dragon with Loredrake and Wyrm of War followed by wizard and warblade levels and then choice wizard PrCs such as incantatrix.

Ravens_cry

2012-03-23, 10:19 PM

Somebody already did that Mary Sue, you can't just copy it!
Actually, I think that is completely within the spirit of the question.

Zale

2012-03-23, 10:32 PM

The Bandicoot

2012-03-23, 10:48 PM

I'd make a Mary Sue but then I'd have to commit seppuku with a rusty spork stolen from Lord Sheogorath himself.

Snowbluff

2012-03-23, 10:48 PM

Yeah, definitely has to be Cha based. XD

Zale

2012-03-23, 10:50 PM

I'd make a Mary Sue but then I'd have to commit seppuku with a rusty spork stolen from Lord Sheogorath himself.

/tangent/ Hyperbole and Half avatar? /tangent/

I've read My Immortal.

It was terrifying. The spelling.. oh gods the spelling.. will the English language ever be the same?

Calanon

2012-03-23, 10:53 PM

Morithias

2012-03-23, 10:55 PM

Half-nymph vampire.

I don't think I need to explain it.

Zale

2012-03-23, 11:02 PM

Its **** like this that makes me never want to RP ever again :smallannoyed:

I give her half a standard action before the party decides to evict her from the group :smallannoyed:

Talking is a free action. :smallamused:

So she can launch into her long, tangled, rambling backstory forever, pausing the entire world in a turnless dead-lock.

Wars will flash-freeze as both sides find themselves unable to take their turns. Wizards will be stuck flying through the sky, fireballs in midair..

Behold the terror that is MARY SUE!

http://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx249/Zale13/evilsmiley.jpg

And my example is no where near as bad as the infamous Ebony Dark'ness Dementia Raven Way, Vampiric Wizardess..

Coidzor

2012-03-23, 11:04 PM

Half-nymph vampire.

I don't think I need to explain it.

Half-nymph, half-vampire "catgirl"

Snowbluff

2012-03-23, 11:05 PM

Half-nymph vampire.

I don't think I need to explain it.

Replace Vampire with Necropolitan and then I can safely say I've done this. Except that 100% of the Twilight and Mary Sue traits were caused by the DM and one of the PCs who is my BFFAEAEAEAEAEAEAEAFEAREAEAEAEAEAEAEAE...

You know, as much time I spent straightening the DM out and gaining infractions for advice for that campaign, I don't know if I'll ever have another one like it.

erikun

2012-03-23, 11:07 PM

Half-nymph vampire.

I don't think I need to explain it.
It's a Mary Sue; you never need to explain it. :smallwink:

For me, I'll just make a great wyrm epic dragon that had amnesia and grew up in a human village, thus giving him the human bonus feats and +0 LA/0 RHD after he regained his memory. Oh, and he is a wizard who spontaneously casts from all his memorized spells, can memorize an unlimited number of spells, and can memorize any spell he can find.

But in exchange, he'd give up his familiar. Because I'm not a munchkin, dang it! :smallfurious:

INoKnowNames

2012-03-23, 11:16 PM

Has someone beaten me into asking about how a Mary Sue character works with Traits and Flaws? :smalltongue:

Hiro Protagonest

2012-03-23, 11:25 PM

She'd be appalling. :smallamused:

Wonder how long 'til the party killed her.
My character would sleep with her and stick a knife in her chest afterwards.
Edit: Wording changed.

Has someone beaten me into asking about how a Mary Sue character works with Traits and Flaws? :smalltongue:

That's somewhere between Mary Sue and Black Hole Sue (someone who's ugly, weak, slow, easily exhausted, uncharismatic, gullible, and dumb, although they usually have one good trait out of that list, yet people still love them).

Nerd-o-rama

2012-03-23, 11:26 PM

I played a Mary Sue once. Changeling (automatic Mary Sue) Duskblade (wizard and fighter!) eventually going into Jade Phoenix Mage (reincarnation of an ancient hero) and Changeling Recaster (broken as hell) if I could swing both. She was fun. Had a giant robot and was coordinating on retconning her into the long-lost bastard princess of Karrnath (naturally, she was an orphan who was pseudo-adopted by a wandering Valenar swordmaster) with another player who would have been her human half-brother.

Christ Eberron with Giant Robots had the most insane characters. Sigil Prep (wherein I was also fortunate enough to play but picked the blandest character possible) might have had us beat in number of Mary Sues, or at least their longevity, but some of the EWGR folks were just really out there.

Coidzor

2012-03-23, 11:30 PM

.Christ Eberron with Giant Robots had the most insane characters.

Dragonmech or what?

Nerd-o-rama

2012-03-23, 11:32 PM

Dragonmech or what?

Just regular Eberron as a comedy with some homebrewed giant robots. Basically armor that increased size and Strength and had some spell-like abilities.

Coidzor

2012-03-23, 11:36 PM

Yeah, definitely has to be Cha based. XD

Disciple of Mym C'sil, eh? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175468)

Nerd-o-rama

2012-03-23, 11:37 PM

Oh, and I realized the other day while trying to get Charisma to everything that you could make a pretty Sueish character out of a Bard/Paladin/Battle Dancer (for Cha to AC while unarmored and/or naked) who sings and dance-fights everything to death. For bonus points, she'd be most effective as a Magic-blooded Draconic Half-Nymph.

EDIT: Paladin of Sune for immunity to Charisma damage/drain.

INoKnowNames

2012-03-23, 11:49 PM

I'd knock her up and stick a knife in her chest afterwards.

.... What exactly do you mean by the underlined? :smalleek:

That's somewhere between Mary Sue and Black Hole Sue (someone who's ugly, weak, slow, easily exhausted, uncharismatic, gullible, and dumb, although they usually have one good trait out of that list, yet people still love them).

The actual definitions tend to vary, but a Black Hole Sue (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlackHoleSue)is someone who warps the entire universe that they are involved in to their whims. Essentially a Mary Sue (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue)on steroids.

Now that I think about it, quite a few "optimized characters" have flaws similar to the type that are used in Sue: random defects that don't actually hurt the character at all. Like Murky Eyes. Or Shaky (if melee) / Non-Combatant (if ranged).

At least most characters don't pretend to make good things be considered flaws. "Oh, I have too many spell slots!" "I can't stop rolling Natural 20s!" "I have all 18s in all of my stats!"

Hiro Protagonest

2012-03-23, 11:57 PM

.... What exactly do you mean by the underlined? :smalleek:

*sigh*

My character would sleep with her. She's probably the most attractive mortal in the world, if not the most attractive.

Calanon

2012-03-23, 11:59 PM

Now that I think about it, quite a few "optimized characters" have flaws similar to the type that are used in Sue: random defects that don't actually hurt the character at all. Like Murky Eyes. Or Shaky (if melee) / Non-Combatant (if ranged).

At least most characters don't pretend to make good things be considered flaws. "Oh, I have too many spell slots!" "I can't stop rolling Natural 20s!" "I have all 18s in all of my stats!"

The only flaw we are allowed to take at our table is "Pathetic" , "Feeble", "Forlorn" and "Vulnerable" and we are only allowed one :smallannoyed: usually to prevent any form of Mary Sue work...

On a side note: Jade Dragons Asura avatar looks so Bad ass... I love it <3

INoKnowNames

2012-03-24, 12:17 AM

*sigh*

My character would sleep with her. She's probably the most attractive mortal in the world, if not the most attractive.

Oh. That's kinda what I figured, but I just had to make sure. :smalleek:

Also, there are so many different things wrong with that plan. :smallsigh:

The only flaw we are allowed to take at our table is "Pathetic" , "Feeble", "Forlorn" and "Vulnerable" and we are only allowed one :smallannoyed: usually to prevent any form of Mary Sue work...

On a side note: Jade Dragons Asura avatar looks so Bad ass... I love it <3

I'd allow flaws so long as the person actually acts them out and has them as an issue. It's just that most use them for free feats and never touch them again.

I still need to make an avatar... :smallfrown:

Calanon

2012-03-24, 12:22 AM

I'd allow flaws so long as the person actually acts them out and has them as an issue. It's just that most use them for free feats and never touch them again.

The reason why we pick those flaws is because its difficult to RP those flaws, you can't act Pathetic in front of someone you have any idea how many penalties you get for that? How do you even act "Forlorn"? The basis around that Flaw is that you don't have a Familiar? Are you supposed to make comments constantly about how you are SO bad at magic that to compensate you never made a Familiar?

INoKnowNames

2012-03-24, 12:26 AM

The reason why we pick those flaws is because its difficult to RP those flaws, you can't act Pathetic in front of someone you have any idea how many penalties you get for that? How do you even act "Forlorn"? The basis around that Flaw is that you don't have a Familiar? Are you supposed to make comments constantly about how you are SO bad at magic that to compensate you never made a Familiar?

I guess I see what you mean, although I'm certain someone more resourceful than me could note a way to be able to roleplay those flaws.

shimmercat

2012-03-24, 12:30 AM

I played a character who was pathetic once. I think (no wait, I KNOW) that all of the other players wanted to strangle me the entire time. The character WAS pathetic, though.

Never again.

OracleofWuffing

2012-03-24, 12:40 AM

Well, I guess I got beaten to the all of the visually pleasing half-nymphs (I guess half-nymph succubus or something but that's stretching it and it was kinda already covered by that one thing), so I'll just say I'll play a plain old human, with a plain old centaur cohort (http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/6048/cent1.jpg).

MukkTB

2012-03-24, 12:59 AM

What makes it a Mary Sue?
http://adventuresofcomicbookgirl.tumblr.com/post/13913540194/mary-sue-what-are-you-or-why-the-concept-of-sue-is

I think the definition boils down to 'characters I don't like.' But playing mix and match race/class/templates is just munchkin power gaming. If Mary Sue is anything its about being part of the story too much. A power gamer isn't trying to fit into the story. He's trying to win a tactical board game. Vampiric Constructed Half Dragon Half Ogre Pounce Barbarian disregards the story for power. Not exactly Mary Sue. Son of the King, ladies man, worshiped by everyone, and chosen one sounds a lot more like Mary Sue to me.

But to be honest I've bailed on the concept. I don't bother calling any character a Mary Sue anymore. I just look to this checklist to figure a characters worth.
Does the character fit well in the setting and the story?
Is the character interesting?
Can I suspend my disbelief in regards to the character?
Do I have a strong emotional reaction to the character? (Not the author, the character. 'I hate Jim because he is a slimeball' is much different than 'I hate Jim because the author is shoving him down my throat.')
Does the author show me things or try to make me accept them by trying to tell me what to think?

Vampiric Constructed Half Dragon Half Ogre Pounce Barbarian probably doesn't fit the story well. Where did it come from? Did the DM describe a setting where this would make sense? This kind combination fits into a lighthearted setting or a pure optimization game.
http://shawntionary.com/chainmailbikini/?p=37
In a serious 'RP' setting it breaks the tone of the game and makes some people angry. For example Carpet Man fits in with the tick. He would not have fit in The Dark Knight without serious overhaul.
Possible Problem - Fitting in with the story's setting and tone.

Son of the King, ladies man, worshiped by everyone, and chosen one can also be annoying. I'm not going to believe that this character is a ladies man if you tell me he is. I'm not going to believe this character s a ladies man if he says stupid things to chicks and still picks them up. I'm only going to believe it if the author puts suave words in his mouth that really sound like girls might fall for them.
Possible Problem - Suspension of disbelief + Author telling and not showing.

Acanous

2012-03-24, 01:14 AM

Actually Mary Sue applies more to Nightwing than to Batman >.>

If I were to play a Mary Sue, Paladin of Freedom/Bard half-fey Dragonborn Human.

Morph Bark

2012-03-24, 05:14 AM

A level 1 Changeling Strongheart Halfling Something with every Half-Template ever, then Dustform Creature and Incarnate Construct (it was a traumatizing past after all), then every Lycanthrope template ever, then Vampire.

Flaw: Too Perfect. Grants an infinite amount of feats to compensate for how big a flaw it is.

nedz

2012-03-24, 05:30 AM

I played one once, it was awful. Don't talk to me about Mary Sues.

Immortal Warforged commoner with rediculous Int. Forever tasked to do menial things.

FMArthur

2012-03-24, 05:47 AM

I think Silverbrow humans would make the best Mary Sues; it's a human naturally and looks human, but it has a strange hair color, probably a funny eye color and comes with latent magical talent from the bloodline of a powerful creature of magic (silver dragons). Okay so it's just a free Dragonblood subtype, but you can get into all sorts of great magicky options with that for a wide variety of character types.

Coming with LA 0 and a human bonus feat is useful and more powerful than something of higher LA, and I think it's important for a Mary Sue to at least start out being as human as possible - preferably unaware of her super special heritage - otherwise you miss out on the valuable self-insertion points that practically define the otherwise nebulous concept of a 'Mary Sue'.

As for what to wear... I have no idea. Super-pretty elegant clothing is just par for the course for fantasy heroines, Sue or not. That's just what you do, you know? I don't even know where on the scale of meek to revealing is appropriate for the most special person ever. I think I would side with meek because it's probably closer to its lonely-young-girl author's style and the dudes would still be tripping over each other to pursue her anyway.

Or maybe her impossibly long silver hair is shaped into clothes or something. She's just that special. :smalltongue:

Hiro Protagonest

2012-03-24, 12:09 PM

Also, there are so many different things wrong with that plan. :smallsigh:

Wrong as in "this changes the game's rating to M" (which, isn't really wrong IMO) or wrong as in "won't work"? Because I doubt just killing her on the spot is any better.

Zale

2012-03-24, 12:49 PM

Wrong as in "this changes the game's rating to M" (which, isn't really wrong IMO) or wrong as in "won't work"? Because I doubt just killing her on the spot is any better.

She'll just come back.

Her sadness from the sheer tragedy of her young will touch they hearts of the gods themselves, in an act of mercy, they will revive her in order to give her a second chance at life!

Aka: The gods themselves couldn't stand her. They universally decided to send her back to the material plane before she screwed up things for them.

Zombimode

2012-03-24, 12:50 PM

The funny thing is, Mary Sues are real :smallbiggrin:
Ive actually met a girl that had like 4 culturaly different ancestors and regardless of her foreing origins spoke perfect german (the official language where I live). She had long wailing black hair, a perfect body and was overall of stunning beauty. She did half a dozend different kinds of sports, including martial arts and medieval swordfighting, was very intelligent and successful in university. She was neither arrogant or full of herself, but instead very nice and easy to talk to.

I would have called shenanigans on the DM but I havent found him yet :smalltongue:

Hiro Protagonest

2012-03-24, 01:17 PM

She'll just come back.

Her sadness from the sheer tragedy of her young will touch they hearts of the gods themselves, in an act of mercy, they will revive her in order to give her a second chance at life!

Aka: The gods themselves couldn't stand her. They universally decided to send her back to the material plane before she screwed up things for them.
Then I don't see how just killing her right off the bat would work, and she would succeed on all saves so Imprisonment wouldn't work.

Hm... get her to draw from the Deck of Many Things. It is the one truly impartial force in existence.

The funny thing is, Mary Sues are real :smallbiggrin:
Ive actually met a girl that had like 4 culturaly different ancestors and regardless of her foreing origins spoke perfect german (the official language where I live). She had long wailing black hair, a perfect body and was overall of stunning beauty. She did half a dozend different kinds of sports, including martial arts and medieval swordfighting, was very intelligent and successful in university. She was neither arrogant or full of herself, but instead very nice and easy to talk to.

I would have called shenanigans on the DM but I havent found him yet :smalltongue:

But if she's not among the best in the world in all the sports she plays, it doesn't count! :smalltongue:

...

Does she have a single parent, is she adopted, or does she have a stepparent? Daughter of a god/goddess is the most plausible explanation, especially daughter of Athena/Minerva.

I think you win this thread. All in favor?

Shadowknight12

2012-03-24, 01:19 PM

Race: God.
Outfit: Whatever the hell she wants.

Yora

2012-03-24, 01:22 PM

I think a chaotic good alignment would be a requirement. You can't really sue out with any other alignment.

Hiro Protagonest

2012-03-24, 01:24 PM

I think a chaotic good alignment would be a requirement. You can't really sue out with any other alignment.

Neutral good also works, but yeah, any other really doesn't.

Asta Kask

2012-03-24, 01:30 PM

I don't know, but she better had big boobs. That's all I'm saying.

Gobidobo

2012-03-24, 04:05 PM

It's a Mary Sue; you never need to explain it. :smallwink:

For me, I'll just make a great wyrm epic dragon that had amnesia and grew up in a human village, thus giving him the human bonus feats and +0 LA/0 RHD after he regained his memory. Oh, and he is a wizard who spontaneously casts from all his memorized spells, can memorize an unlimited number of spells, and can memorize any spell he can find.

But in exchange, he'd give up his familiar. Because I'm not a munchkin, dang it! :smallfurious:

That had me laughing for like 10 minutes. <3 lmao :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

I have a headache now. :( hahaha!

Oh, and I realized the other day while trying to get Charisma to everything that you could make a pretty Sueish character out of a Bard/Paladin/Battle Dancer (for Cha to AC while unarmored and/or naked) who sings and dance-fights everything to death. For bonus points, she'd be most effective as a Magic-blooded Draconic Half-Nymph.

EDIT: Paladin of Sune for immunity to Charisma damage/drain.

LOLOLOLOLOL You guys are so funny! <3

Well, I guess I got beaten to the all of the visually pleasing half-nymphs (I guess half-nymph succubus or something but that's stretching it and it was kinda already covered by that one thing), so I'll just say I'll play a plain old human, with a plain old centaur cohort (http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/6048/cent1.jpg).

Pretty sweet artwork! Thanks for the link! :D Clever idea! :)

What makes it a Mary Sue?
http://adventuresofcomicbookgirl.tumblr.com/post/13913540194/mary-sue-what-are-you-or-why-the-concept-of-sue-is

I think the definition boils down to 'characters I don't like.' But playing mix and match race/class/templates is just munchkin power gaming. If Mary Sue is anything its about being part of the story too much. A power gamer isn't trying to fit into the story. He's trying to win a tactical board game. Vampiric Constructed Half Dragon Half Ogre Pounce Barbarian disregards the story for power. Not exactly Mary Sue. Son of the King, ladies man, worshiped by everyone, and chosen one sounds a lot more like Mary Sue to me.

But to be honest I've bailed on the concept. I don't bother calling any character a Mary Sue anymore. I just look to this checklist to figure a characters worth.
Does the character fit well in the setting and the story?
Is the character interesting?
Can I suspend my disbelief in regards to the character?
Do I have a strong emotional reaction to the character? (Not the author, the character. 'I hate Jim because he is a slimeball' is much different than 'I hate Jim because the author is shoving him down my throat.')
Does the author show me things or try to make me accept them by trying to tell me what to think?

Vampiric Constructed Half Dragon Half Ogre Pounce Barbarian probably doesn't fit the story well. Where did it come from? Did the DM describe a setting where this would make sense? This kind combination fits into a lighthearted setting or a pure optimization game.
http://shawntionary.com/chainmailbikini/?p=37
In a serious 'RP' setting it breaks the tone of the game and makes some people angry. For example Carpet Man fits in with the tick. He would not have fit in The Dark Knight without serious overhaul.
Possible Problem - Fitting in with the story's setting and tone.

Son of the King, ladies man, worshiped by everyone, and chosen one can also be annoying. I'm not going to believe that this character is a ladies man if you tell me he is. I'm not going to believe this character s a ladies man if he says stupid things to chicks and still picks them up. I'm only going to believe it if the author puts suave words in his mouth that really sound like girls might fall for them.
Possible Problem - Suspension of disbelief + Author telling and not showing.

Sounds like a character someone in my group would make. lol

I think my group consists of people that play in a style that would annoy the hell out of everyone else. I don't know what it's like playing with other people. They're the only group I've ever played with. They're all power gamers.. But they all like to play different things. One likes to play fighters (usually huge & strong, ladies man type), one likes to play magic users (scantily clad women most of the time), one likes to play diplomats (usually some unsuspecting race- like a gnome or dwarf) & I like to play sneaky & fast or small & terrible.. Like the one time I played an evil awakened multi (3) headed dire rat that had some template (forgot the name) where it could produce clones of itself (just plain dire rats with max hd) & my toon also had hive mind & legion possessed templates.. teehee.. xD Think Willard on crack. :)

I think Silverbrow humans would make the best Mary Sues; it's a human naturally and looks human, but it has a strange hair color, probably a funny eye color and comes with latent magical talent from the bloodline of a powerful creature of magic (silver dragons). Okay so it's just a free Dragonblood subtype, but you can get into all sorts of great magicky options with that for a wide variety of character types.

Coming with LA 0 and a human bonus feat is useful and more powerful than something of higher LA, and I think it's important for a Mary Sue to at least start out being as human as possible - preferably unaware of her super special heritage - otherwise you miss out on the valuable self-insertion points that practically define the otherwise nebulous concept of a 'Mary Sue'.

As for what to wear... I have no idea. Super-pretty elegant clothing is just par for the course for fantasy heroines, Sue or not. That's just what you do, you know? I don't even know where on the scale of meek to revealing is appropriate for the most special person ever. I think I would side with meek because it's probably closer to its lonely-young-girl author's style and the dudes would still be tripping over each other to pursue her anyway.

Or maybe her impossibly long silver hair is shaped into clothes or something. She's just that special. :smalltongue:

that sounds pretty cool! :D good thinking! :D

I think a chaotic good alignment would be a requirement. You can't really sue out with any other alignment.

Why? lol

Kaeso

2012-03-24, 04:26 PM

Whoo boy, a Mary Sue, let's see.

Her name would be Mireille Vlar'ar'nth'ar'rnth'il (Because French names are generally regarded as classy and adding a lot of apostrophes is cool and elven) and she'd be the most beautiful half elf the world has ever seen. Her human father was strong, wise and kind and her elven mother beautiful, caring and intelligent but the big bad elves and the big bad humans hated her for being different even though they were all madly in love with her and her beautiful brown hair that appears to be blonde in certain sunlight but could also appear black on tuesdays when you squint your eyes, so she was exiled. This made her very depressed even though every man she ever meets falls badly in love with her. She decided to become a bard and she doesn't solve her problems through combat, but through her gracious dances and her innocent charm that makes everybody love her. Yes, even that humanoid consuming dragon.... that is generally known for being evil and sadistic.... and permanently has mind black activated.... and is undead.

And then there's this vampire that sparkles in the sunlight and....
No, I know what I just made up was bad but continuing with this would be downright cruel.

EDIT: Oh, her clothes, forgot about those. They have to be beautiful dresses (even though she's an adventurer) made of the finest materials (even though she's an adventurer) that changes colour in certain light and cover her body completely but for some inexplicable reason still shows off her perfect body and makes everybody fall in love with her, including a shirtless werewolf.

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-03-24, 04:27 PM

What race would she be, and what would she wear?

lol

Gender? Clothing? Pun-pun craves not these things

Calanon

2012-03-24, 04:48 PM

Gobidobo

2012-03-24, 07:31 PM

Talya

2012-03-24, 07:43 PM

Honor Harrington.

(What? She is!)

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-03-24, 08:33 PM

Roxxy

2012-03-24, 08:41 PM

I'd be a middle aged redheaded human detective with an odd obsession with my sunglasses and a knack for showing up everywhere something is going on precisely on time. I'd also do the entire Miami Dade PD's job for them.

Pie Guy

2012-03-24, 09:00 PM

Guys, we're overlooking Incarnum (then again, who doesn't?). Because what's more Sue-ish than using the purified essence of goodness to fight your enemies?

Also, Azurin.

Hiro Protagonest

2012-03-24, 09:45 PM

Guys, we're overlooking Incarnum (then again, who doesn't?). Because what's more Sue-ish than using the purified essence of goodness to fight your enemies?

Also, Azurin.

...I am now imagining an evil Sue necrocarnate. She's loved by everyone except those uptight goods. Even the souls she torture for power. Personification of Evil is Sexy, and often deals with goods by seducing them to evil.

Also, I missed the remark wayy back about the Black Hole Sue. I meant Anti-Sue.

INoKnowNames

2012-03-25, 01:59 AM

Wrong as in "this changes the game's rating to M" (which, isn't really wrong IMO) or wrong as in "won't work"? Because I doubt just killing her on the spot is any better.

It's not the rating that I specifically called out as wrong (although that certainly is something). It's the plan. If you had relations with a Mary Sue, you'd instantly be mind controlled by the totally awesome pleasure. The Will Save for even maintaining your own thought processes and not becoming one of her slaves is over 9000.

And if you -did- some how survive, and then tried to kill her... good luck with that.

And if you did kill her, she'd some how be able to produce an offspring from your ... donation ... and the offspring would be 10x worse than she because it has yet another personal nemesis.

She'll just come back.

Her sadness from the sheer tragedy of her young will touch they hearts of the gods themselves, in an act of mercy, they will revive her in order to give her a second chance at life!

Aka: The gods themselves couldn't stand her. They universally decided to send her back to the material plane before she screwed up things for them.

Also this. Suicide is probably your best option.

The funny thing is, Mary Sues are real :smallbiggrin:
Ive actually met a girl that had like 4 culturaly different ancestors and regardless of her foreing origins spoke perfect german (the official language where I live). She had long wailing black hair, a perfect body and was overall of stunning beauty. She did half a dozend different kinds of sports, including martial arts and medieval swordfighting, was very intelligent and successful in university. She was neither arrogant or full of herself, but instead very nice and easy to talk to.

I would have called shenanigans on the DM but I havent found him yet :smalltongue:

The thing is, that's a very interestingly built character, but unless all of the players, npcs, and the Dm do as she says, it's still a perfectly legitimate build. Although her ability score rolls are probably abnormally high...

Also, I missed the remark wayy back about the Black Hole Sue. I meant Anti-Sue.

If TvTropes is to be believed, the way most flaws are used in D&D still would leave most characters as simply Mary Sues (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue) rather than Anti-Sues (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AntiSue). Feel free to take a look, and you tell me. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SchmuckBait) :smallamused:

Gobidobo

2012-03-25, 06:03 AM

...I am now imagining an evil Sue necrocarnate. She's loved by everyone except those uptight goods. Even the souls she torture for power. Personification of Evil is Sexy, and often deals with goods by seducing them to evil.

Also, I missed the remark wayy back about the Black Hole Sue. I meant Anti-Sue.

You're speaking my language. :smallbiggrin: Down with the goody-goody-gum-drops! :smallfurious::smallfurious:

:smallwink: :smallbiggrin:

Dairuga

2012-03-27, 08:56 AM

Half-Dragon, Half-Fey, Half-Celestial, Half-Fiend Allurin (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Allurin_%283.5e_Race%29).. with levels of Bard.

Oh, and because of her traumatizing and dramatic past, she has an LA of 0, casts as a sorcerer her level (Her dragon ancestor was the king of dragons), a cleric of her level (Her grandmother was a goddess), and can sneak attack (Her mother was a succbus, and like, sneaky) , rage (Her demon blood makes her angry!), wildshape (Because she's part fey :smallwink:)..

Oh and everyone, everywhere loves her, except for those evil squares who hate her.

She has long, black hair like falling obsidian and with rainbowy streaks like in oil and eyes that are sky blue and seem to peer into your soul (She reads minds, 'cuz she's part Elan). And her clothing is all black, cause she's depressed about her past but never cries because it was soo bad that she wants to hide her emotions, except when she doesn't, and it's like a awesome top (Like that one you can see in <expensive store name>, except that it's made of of, like, unicorn hair silk by pixies or something.) And these pants that totally make her look awesome, with fifty pairs of shoes that her endless admirers carry around for her, along with her other outfits (One for every round! :D), and anyway, she looks just like <attractive female celebrity> except that she's even prettier and guys follow her everywhere, even if they thought they liked someone else, lol...

.

Hahahahahaah, oh god. This had me laughing for minutes.
This is.. Just. Priceless.

And of course, let us not forget. Her mother is a succubus, and cause she's part succubus, she can also kiss like one, cuz' succubusses are like, awesome kissers, and everyone wants to kiss her. But only when she wants to, of course, and she can tell anyone she doesn't like to go to hell, cause they won't get any kisses. Oh, and she can suggest as a succubus except at a +4 as opposed to normal succubuses, cuz' she's part goddess, which gives her, like, divine looks.

Oh, and because she's a bard, she can use mass suggestion on everyone that have their attention on her. She's really bad at playing a harmonica, which is her absolutely most favourite instrument of all time, and she got one by her very fifth boyfriend on her fourteenth birthday, so instead she threw it away and started singing, which she became, like, amazing at. her voice is like the softest of silk, sweeping across the mind of everyone who hears it, making everyone shed tears and feeling sorry, because they are reminded about the bad things that happened in their past, and stuff.

And she's sorta ditzy at times, which is really bad with her. It's so bad that she gets, like, five free feats to make up for it. She can stumble in the middle of a city, and -everyone- will notice. Everyone within 500 feet will instantly see her falling, and feel compelled to help her, which is super embarrasing. She wants to die every time it happens, but she's strong tho, so it's like, okay. She never says hooow bad this really bad flaw makes her feel, which makes her such a deep character.

Ravens_cry

2012-03-27, 09:44 AM

Even though I know it's a joke I feel dirty reading some of the above posts.
It's just ,gah.:smalleek:
Mary Sues of this magnitude should not be joked about. They should be expunged from existence. Deleted, refuted and destroyed lest they tamper with the very fabric of narrative, nay, the universe.
It's really, really just too much.

Nerd-o-rama

2012-03-27, 10:02 AM

Yeah at least mine were within the realms of game rules and normal setting considerations.

...except the giant robot.

Hiro Protagonest

2012-03-27, 11:10 AM

FMArthur

2012-03-27, 11:36 AM

I have an idea on how to kill Mary Sues!

Step 1. Cast Genesis
Step 2. Convince her to let you Plane Shift her there.

I reject your reality and substitute my own! And in my reality, Mary Sues are reduced to core-only elf monks with 20 point buy and no templates, and they lose their inhuman charm.

The perfect plot arc for her to demonstrate through strength of will just how powerful she really is! Thank goodness that overwhelming hardship weakens- oh wait, strengthens Mary Sues every time. Uh, yeah. Good luck!

Kaeso

2012-03-27, 11:41 AM

I have an idea on how to kill Mary Sues!

Step 1. Cast Genesis
Step 2. Convince her to let you Plane Shift her there.

I reject your reality and substitute my own! And in my reality, Mary Sues are reduced to core-only elf monks with 20 point buy and no templates, and they lose their inhuman charm.

:smallfurious: YOU FOOL! Do you realize what you have done?
A special (elf) female that's extremely beautiful yet lonely (loss of inhuman charm), strong (lvl 20) yet weak (monk, core only) and all alone. You did not end the Mary Sue, you only made here stronger!

Giegue

2012-03-27, 11:42 AM

If I was playing Naruto D20 and wanted to play a Mary Sue I'd just stat Itachi. :smallamused:

Also, your all forgetting something important. You cannot have a Mary Sue without her having at least 1 divine rank. That's basically mandatory. The more divine ranks, the better.

Hiro Protagonest

2012-03-27, 11:45 AM

:smallfurious: YOU FOOL! Do you realize what you have done?
A special (elf) female that's extremely beautiful yet lonely (loss of inhuman charm), strong (lvl 20) yet weak (monk, core only) and all alone. You did not end the Mary Sue, you only made here stronger!

She's not lonely, she still has regular charm plus her beauty. I should change it to level 1 wizard though.

The Glyphstone

2012-03-27, 11:49 AM

Honor Harrington.

(What? She is!)

Which is why Webber is focusing on other characters and letting her be the plot device rather than the VP character. Mostly. Whenever his editor lets him get away with it.

I still don't get this. Any Weber fan who's read the books can clearly see that Hamish is his Mary Sue/Author Avatar. Well, except for those heretics who support Benjamin.:smallbiggrin:

Kaeso

2012-03-27, 12:17 PM

She's not lonely, she still has regular charm plus her beauty. I should change it to level 1 wizard though.

But she no longer has a horde of men (and women!) to drool over her, fight over her, proclaim her love for her, sell everything they own for her, wage wars for her and die for her. She must be so lonely.

FMArthur

2012-03-27, 01:07 PM

I can't wait for the fascinating non-Sue adventure of people who miss Sue being unable to deal with her absence and questing to get her back to save them from everything.

Does that sound more appealing or less appealing as a story direction? :smallamused:

JadePhoenix

2012-03-27, 01:31 PM

Whenever someone calls their character a 'toon' I die a little inside

Talya

2012-03-27, 01:34 PM

The Glyphstone

2012-03-27, 01:42 PM

Coidzor

2012-03-27, 02:10 PM

Whenever someone calls their character a 'toon' I die a little inside

As do I. :/ So annoying. Unless they're actually playing Toon, or whatever that RPG is.

Wanna try that one sometime, I must admit.

Ravens_cry

2012-03-27, 02:32 PM

As do I. :/ So annoying. Unless they're actually playing Toon, or whatever that RPG is.

Wanna try that one sometime, I must admit.
Yeah, it is definitely among the ones I want to play. I love the general wackiness of the old Golden Age cartoons, and being able to play that?
Sign me up!

Morph Bark

2012-03-27, 03:18 PM

FMArthur

2012-03-27, 03:24 PM

In all seriousness, RPG characters are far more acceptible places for Mary Sues than in fiction. This is because RPG characters are actually supposed to represent the player in the story, or at least someone the player would like to be every once in a while. Likewise, minimizing one's flaws and maximizing one's abilities is a normal part of character development, which you do just to survive.

As such, almost all of us have played a Mary Sue to one extent or another. It doesn't mean they'd make a good story in novel form.

I think of it the other way, actually - a 'Mary Sue' in a story is fine, because they're the central character of the story. At their worst and most abhorrent, all a Sue can do is ruin their own story's readability. In a group RPG, though, that Mary Sue is now poisoning everyone's story, not just their own - the other players and the DM (or, if it's a Sue NPC, all of the players).

You're talking about separate qualities of Mary Sue-ism having their effect on games, though.

We've arrived at the unclarity of the definition of the term again. Talya is talking about Mary Sues as self-inserts with fantasy-polish shining away flaws and buffing up unrealistically positive traits, and Glyphstone is talking about Mary Sues as characters that the entire story bends itself around. I think it takes both to be a full Mary Sue, but others lump all idealistic self-inserts in with plotbenders, and I won't say that's totally wrong because they do represent sort of the same authorial flaw in different magnitudes. It could be either a broad category or a narrow archetype and people don't agree on it.

Talya

2012-03-27, 03:25 PM

You're talking about separate qualities of Mary Sue-ism having their effect on games, though.

We've arrived at the unclarity of the definition of the term again. Talya is talking about Mary Sues as self-inserts with fantasy-polish shining away flaws and buffing up unrealistically positive traits, and Glyphstone is talking about Mary Sues as characters that the entire story bends itself around. I think it takes both to be a full Mary Sue, but others lump all idealistic self-inserts in with plotbenders, and I won't say that's totally wrong because they do represent sort of the same authorial flaw in different magnitudes. It could be either a broad category or a narrow archetype and people don't agree on it.

Uh, yeah. What he said. (Far more eloquently than I would have. Thank you.)

Gobidobo

2012-03-27, 04:25 PM

bugs bunny is a mary-sue (or is it gary-sue?) lol everyone loves bugs bunny! :)

what if you had a campaign where everyone in the group was a mary/gary sue?

wait- wouldn't that just be star trek voyager, the RPG? :smallbiggrin:

j/k

Calanon

2012-03-27, 05:12 PM

So today I decided I'd just put together every breedable creature in DnD ever and throw all the Half-templates and every official Lycanthrope template on a Mongrelfolk and see what happens.

Now I got a character who is hideous, but awesomely beautiful, super-strong in nearly every way, very smart despite being just a child and the dumbest of her kind, immune to nearly everything, inhuman senses and with a ton of magical abilities.

And this is all just at birth.

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I am eager to see how this turned out... :smallamused:

Hiro Protagonest

2012-03-27, 05:36 PM

But she no longer has a horde of men (and women!) to drool over her, fight over her, proclaim her love for her, sell everything they own for her, wage wars for her and die for her. She must be so lonely.

Lonely by the standards of mere mortals. And even gods. She wouldn't even be considered lonely by the standards of Olidammara/Cayden Calien, or very "successful" succubi.

Also, never mind the level 1 wizard thing. That would just make her a "budding flower", and "weak but strong", especially with full splat access. Change it to level 5 wizard, but she can never gain or lose levels (or just make it run on E6 rules), so she'll always be reasonably powerful but not too powerful.

If she can't stand not having the world fight over her, then I'll kill her on the spot after taking away most of her powers. Oh yeah, the plane also strips her of any mechanical benefits that were bestowed by DM/DM-approved fiat (including items that the DM made/player-made-and-DM-approved).

Calanon

2012-03-27, 05:41 PM

Lonely by the standards of mere mortals. And even gods. She wouldn't even be considered lonely by the standards of Olidammara/Cayden Calien, or very "successful" succubi.

Also, never mind the level 1 wizard thing. That would just make her a "budding flower", and "weak but strong", especially with full splat access. Change it to level 5 wizard, but she can never gain or lose levels (or just make it run on E6 rules), so she'll always be reasonably powerful but not too powerful.

If she can't stand not having the world fight over her, then I'll kill her on the spot after taking away most of her powers. Oh yeah, the plane also strips her of any mechanical benefits that were bestowed by DM/DM-approved fiat (including items that the DM made/player-made-and-DM-approved).

I think we've discussed what happens when a Mary Sue dies...

The Gods in there eternal sympathy and mercy (i lol'd) decide to elevate the poor Mary Sue to godhood... and even then the greatest overdeity would feel so much sympathy as to surrender his position to the fledgling Godling automatically pushing her to Overdeityhood... and even this would not be enough for the martyr known as "Mary Sue"

Gobidobo

2012-03-27, 05:42 PM

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I am eager to see how this turned out... :smallamused:

lol!! i second the motion. xD

Hiro Protagonest

2012-03-27, 05:49 PM

I think we've discussed what happens when a Mary Sue dies...

The Gods in there eternal sympathy and mercy (i lol'd) decide to elevate the poor Mary Sue to godhood... and even then the greatest overdeity would feel so much sympathy as to surrender his position to the fledgling Godling automatically pushing her to Overdeityhood... and even this would not be enough for the martyr known as "Mary Sue"

But I stripped her of her Sue powers! I should just skip the tricky no-loophole wording and just say "stripped of all Mary Sue powers and abilities".

Besides, if she became an overdeity, we wouldn't have to worry about her anymore. Sure, people might pray to her, but she really couldn't be involved in the world anymore. And bad things happen to those who wish to become greater than overdeities. The original creator of the universe himself would be forced to take action, and he cannot be swayed by any influence that comes from the descendants of the ones he created.

Alternatively, I could just trap her soul in a gem. Or, you know, Deck of Many Things, the one truly impartial force in the universe that mortals and gods know of.

The Glyphstone

2012-03-27, 05:53 PM

INoKnowNames

2012-03-27, 06:01 PM

I don't think Jade Dragon understands what exactly a Mary Sue is...

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-03-27, 08:18 PM

Alternately, crib Ed Greenwood's notes. Elemenster is probably the most iconic Gary Stu/Self Insert of the genre.

Edog

2012-03-28, 01:50 AM

Calanon

2012-03-28, 06:53 AM

Hmm... I wonder if its to late to make a Faustian Deal to have the entire idea of a "Mary Sue"-ish character to be completely removed from creation... Heironeous knows my soul is going so deep into Perdition that its never coming back... On the bright side I'll be away from all Mary Sues since the Nine Hells is like so totally ugly that she'd NEVER be there...

...What did I just summon? :smallconfused:

Morph Bark

2012-03-28, 07:26 AM

I am eager to see how this turned out... :smallamused:

I had to remove your spoilerblock to fit this in here, but here you go. :smalltongue:

Maly Suano
CR 71, according to the templates

Formerly human, or rather its ancestors, they were bred with outsiders, elementals, dragons, giants, fey, aberrations and other humanoids. From this extensive breeding process, Maly Suano was born. As beautiful as a divine being, Maly Suano’s appears as an androgynous youth with small green crystal scales on its cheeks, shoulders, elbows and knees. Pristine white feathered wings sprout from its shoulders and long black hair falls down its back. Its eyes have glowing blue cornea and pupils and its irises glow red. The creature glistens in the sun, but the light reveals a look on its face that shows the pain it holds deep inside, hidden from others in secret.

Medium Giant (human, reptilian, shapechanger)
Commoner 1/Lycanthrope 43
Hit Dice 1d4+14 plus 43d8+1270 (1480 hp)
Initiative +8
Speed 40 ft, fly 80 ft (good)
Armour Class 61 (+4 Dex, +47 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 57
Base Attack Bonus/Grapple +32/+36
Attack Bite +53 melee (1d6+21)
Full Attack Bite +53 melee (1d6+21) and gore +48 melee (1d6+21) and 2 claws +37 melee (1d6+10) and 2 tentacles +37 melee (1d4+10)
Space/Reach 10 ft/10 ft
Special Attacks awesome beauty, breath weapon, change shape, rend (2d6+33), spell-like abilities
Special Qualities blindsight 60 ft, DR 10/magic, DR 5/piercing, DR 10/silver, darkvision 60 ft, fast healing 5, immunity to acid, cold, confusion/insanity, disease, electricity, enchantments, energy drain, fire, poison, sleep and sonic, low-light vision, scent, SR 54, water breathing
Saves Fort +38, Ref +30, Will +29
Abilities Str 52, Dex 24, Con 38, Int 14, Wis 24, Cha 22
Skills Appraise +3, Balance +11, Bluff +8, Climb+22, Disguise +55, Hide +13, Jump +27, Listen +63, Move Silently +10, Perform (sing) +55, Search +7, Sleight of Hand +4, Spot +63
Feats (15+B) Aberration Blood (tail) [33], Alertness (B), Blind-Fight [21], Combat Reflexes [42], Dodge [6], Endurance [1], Flyby Attack [12], Enlarge Breath [30], Improved Flyby Attack [15], Improved Initiative (B), Inhuman Reach [36], Mage Slayer [18], Mobility [9], Pierce Magical Concealment [21], Maximize Breath [24], Heighten Breath [27], Stand Still [39], Steadfast Determination [3], Track (B)
Flaws Too Perfect (grants no feats because Maly Suano doesn’t need any)
Treasure Lots of jewelry made from platinum, gold, silver, bronze, copper, brass, adamantine and mithral, set with emeralds, rubies, sapphires, diamonds, topazes and crystals in every colour, totalling 28,340,000 gp in worth

Ability Drain (Su): Maly Suano’s bite can drain 1d4 points of Constitution if the victim fails a Fortitude save (DC 46). Maly Suano can use this ability three times per day.

Alternate Forms (Su): Maly Suano may take the form of any Humanoid creature, as if using an alter self spell cast by a 9th-level sorcerer, except it allows Maly Suano to take only Humanoid forms instead of Giant forms. Maly Suano may do this at will as a standard action.

Awesome Beauty (Su): This ability affects all humanoids within 30 ft of Maly Suano. Those who look directly at it must succeed on a Will save (DC 16) or be shaken for 1 minute. A creature that remains in range and continues to look at Maly Suano must continue to make saving throws against this ability every round. A successful saving throw while already shaken does not free the creature from the effect of the initial failed save. A failed save throw while shaken resets the duration of the shaken condition. Maly Suano can suppress or resume this ability as a free action. This is a mind-affecting fear effect.

Blood Dependency (Ex): If Maly Suano does not use its blood drain special attack against at least one living foe each day, it must make a DC 15 Fortitude save or become fatigued. Each day after the first that it does not drink blood directly from a living creature, the DC increases by 1 until it fails the save and becomes fatigued. After that, it must make a DC 20 Fortitude save each week (with the DC increasing by 1 each week thereafter) that it does not use its blood drain or become exhausted.
The fatigue or exhaustion caused by blood dependency cannot be eliminated by rest (though magic can offset the condition until Maly Suano fails another save). Using its blood drain ability eliminates Maly Suano’s fatigue immediately, or reduces exhaustion to fatigue.

Blood Drain (Ex): As a half-vampire, Maly Suano can suck blood from a living victim with its fangs by making a successful grapple check. If it pins the foe, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution drain each round the pin is maintained. It can’t drain more points of Contitution in a single hour than its Constitution score. When a half-vampire drains a victim’s Constitution, it gains 5 temporary hit points, no matter how many points it drains. Temporary hit points gained in this way last for up to 1 hour.

Breath Weapon (Su): Maly Suano’s breath weapon is a 30 ft line of prismatic light that deals 6d8 points of acid damage, 6d8 points of cold damage, 6d8 points of electricity damage, 6d10 points of fire damage, 6d8 points of force damage and 6d8 points of sonic damage. A successful Reflex save (DC 46) reduces damage by half. Creatures who fail their Reflex save are also blinded for 1d4 rounds. Creatures caught in the line must also succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 46) and a Will save (DC 46). Those who fail the Fortitude save gain 1 negative level and are deafened for 1d4 rounds. Those who fail the Will save are panicked for 1d4 rounds. If directed at a body of water, this breath weapon evaporates 1 cubic foot of water per point of damage dealt. Maly Suano can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage with its breath weapon. It can use its breath weapon once every 1d4 rounds.

Cause Rain (Su): Maly Suano can breathe storm clouds three times per day, cuasing rain. The rain lasts for 2d4 hours and extends in a 2-mile radius centered on Maly Suano.

Change Shape (Su): As a standard action, Maly Suano can change into a pseudonatural half-beast form, tentacle and hairy and all tooth and claw, but yet still divinely beautiful and strong.
Medium Hybrid: Str +46, Dex +34, Con +34, +28 natural armor, 50 ft, climb 20 ft, swim 30 ft, fly 40 ft (good), bite secondary attack (1d6+Str)
Maly Suano cannot be flanked in its Hybrid Form, and it’s not subject to critical hits. Material Plane creatures take a -1 morale penalty on attack rolls against Maly Suano in this form
Bite +76 melee (1d6+44), 2 claws +49 melee (1d4+22), 4 tentacles +49 melee (1d4+22)
Blindsense (Ex): A dire bat uses echolocation to pinpoint creatures within 40 feet and so does Maly Suano in its Hybrid Form. Opponents still have total concealment against it unless it can actually see them.
Disease (Ex): Filth fever—bite, Fortitude DC 63, incubation period 1d3 days, damage 1d3 Dex and 1d3 Con. The save DC is Constitution-based. Maly Suano’s bite attack applies the filth fever disease while in its Hybrid Form.
Ferocity (Ex): A boar is such a tenacious combatant that it continues to fight without penalty even while disabled or dying, and so does Maly Suano in its Hybrid Form.
Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, Maly Suano must hit with a bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake.
Hold Breath (Ex): Maly Suano can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 4 x its Constitution score before it risks drowning.
Keen Scent (Ex): Maly Suano can notice creatures by scent in a 180-foot radius and can detect blood in the water at a range of up to 1 mile.
Pounce (Ex): If Maly Suano charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.
Rake (Ex): Attack bonus +49 melee, damage 1d6+22.
Trip (Ex): If Maly Suano hits with a bite attack, it can attempt to trip the opponent (+44 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip Maly Suano.

Minotaur Cunning (Ex): Maly Suano has a +4 bonus on Intelligence checks to escape maze spells and the ability to determine which direction is north automatically.

Roar (Ex): Maly Suano can roar three times per day, creating a sound resembling metal scraping against stone. All creatures within 60 ft are automatically deafened for 1 round (no save).

Sound Imitation (Ex): Maly Suano can imitate any voice or sound it has heard. Will save DC 16 to detect the ruse.

Spell-like abilities: DCs are Charisma-based (10 + spell level + 6).
At will--charm person, disguise self, empathy.
5/day--plane shift.
3/day--blink, blur, darkness, detect law, ethereal jaunt, holy aura, poison, protection from evil, protection from law, unholy aura.
2/day--horrid wilting, obscuring mist.
1/day--acid fog, aid, air walk, blasphemy, bless, burning hands, chain lightning, charm (mass), charm monster (mass), cone of cold, confusion, contagion, control water, control weather, control winds, cure serious wounds, desecrate, destruction, detect evil, dispel evil, dominate person, earthquake, elemental swarm*, enlarge person, enthrall, eyebite, faerie fire, fire shield, fire seeds, firestorm, flaming sphere, fog cloud, gaseous form, geas/quest, geas (lesser), glitterdust, hallow, hold monster, holy smite, holy word, ice storm, implosion, incendiary cloud, insanity, invisibility, invisibility (greater), invisibility (mass), iron body, magic stone, neutralize poison, Otto’s irresistible dance, produce flame, reduce person, remove disease, resurrection, scintillating pattern, sleep, speak with animals, soften earth and stone, spike stones, stinking cloud, stone shape, stoneskin, suggestion, suggestion (mass), summon monster IX**, Tasha’s hideous laughter, telekinesis, touch of idiocy, unhallow, unholy blight, wall of fire, wall of stone, water breathing, whirlwind, wind wall.

*Elemental Swarm can be used 1/day for each of the four elemental types.
**Summon Monster IX can be used 1/day to summon only celestials, 1/day to summon only fiends and 1/day to summon only pseudonatural animals or vermin. Select any celestial or fiendish animal or vermin that could be summoned by summon monster IX, but apply the pseudonatural template to the creature in place of the celestial or fiendish template.

Water Fire (Su): Six times per day, Maly Suano can surround itself in an aura of ghostly, flickering, multi-coloured flames while touching or submerged in water. The flames cause damage to any creature touching Maly Suano. Any creature that successfully hits Maly Suano with a natural weapon or a melee weapon causes the attacker to take 1d6 points of fire damage. This ability lasts for 1 minute or until it comes in contact with normal or magical fire. If the water fire is dispelled by fire, Maly Suano cannot activate this ability again for 2d6 minutes.

Barknotes:
For Maly Suano’s Half-Doppelganger part I made it so Maly Suano could simply access all Humanoid forms instead of just three, as if applying the Half-Doppelganger template several times, but not allowing the Wisdom bonus to stack with itself each time.

For the Half-Dragon parts I applied a special rule, being that I would not allow the ability score bonuses and such to stack from multiple Half-Dragon templates, otherwise Maly Suano would have over 500 Strength, over 200 Constitution and over 100 Intelligence, Charisma and natural armor. Furthermore, I sort of merged all the breath weapons together, adding up their damage (but making energy damage of the same type overlap) and area (hence a 30 ft line) and allowing Maly Suano to use it at will every 1d4 rounds. This for the sake of making it easy for me mostly, otherwise Maly Suano would have 32 different breath weapons! Merging the breath weapons might create a bit of an overkill attack, but I figure that that makes up for the much lower ability scores and natural armor, plus creating a much more elegant outcome. For this reason, I also had any Half-Dragon templates beyond the first apply only a +1 CR modifier.

For the Half-Fey part, I simply allowed Maly Suano to have the “X or Y 1/day” spell-like abilities as “X and Y 1/day”. Kind of like applying the Half-Fey template twice, except in limited fashion. The fey blood is strong in this one. Besides, some of the SLAs refer to spells that were removed from the 3.5 update.

For the Half-Janni part, I simply counted its Planar Jaunt ability to be the same as Planeshift, even though it’s normally limited to a handful of planes. It doesn’t really matter much when you can already shift to any plane a bunch of times per day, so one can just fluff it as the abilities synergizing and upgrading Planar Jaunt to Planeshift.

I have left out some of the Mongrelfolk abilities, because they are not relevant (no ranks in UMD, no longer Humanoid type, etc).

For the spell-like abilities, I simply did not feel like looking up all the spell levels to calculate the DCs for the spells that have them. :P

Calanon

2012-03-28, 07:36 AM

I had to remove your spoilerblock to fit this in here, but here you go. :smalltongue:

Maly Suano
CR 71, according to the templates

Formerly human, or rather its ancestors, they were bred with outsiders, elementals, dragons, giants, fey, aberrations and other humanoids. From this extensive breeding process, Maly Suano was born. As beautiful as a divine being, Maly Suano’s appears as an androgynous youth with small green crystal scales on its cheeks, shoulders, elbows and knees. Pristine white feathered wings sprout from its shoulders and long black hair falls down its back. Its eyes have glowing blue cornea and pupils and its irises glow red. The creature glistens in the sun, but the light reveals a look on its face that shows the pain it holds deep inside, hidden from others in secret.

Medium Giant (human, reptilian, shapechanger)
Commoner 1/Lycanthrope 43
Hit Dice 1d4+14 plus 43d8+1270 (1480 hp)
Initiative +8
Speed 40 ft, fly 80 ft (good)
Armour Class 61 (+4 Dex, +47 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 57
Base Attack Bonus/Grapple +32/+36
Attack Bite +53 melee (1d6+21)
Full Attack Bite +53 melee (1d6+21) and gore +48 melee (1d6+21) and 2 claws +37 melee (1d6+10) and 2 tentacles +37 melee (1d4+10)
Space/Reach 10 ft/10 ft
Special Attacks awesome beauty, breath weapon, change shape, rend (2d6+33), spell-like abilities
Special Qualities blindsight 60 ft, DR 10/magic, DR 5/piercing, DR 10/silver, darkvision 60 ft, fast healing 5, immunity to acid, cold, confusion/insanity, disease, electricity, enchantments, energy drain, fire, poison, sleep and sonic, low-light vision, scent, SR 54, water breathing
Saves Fort +38, Ref +30, Will +29
Abilities Str 52, Dex 24, Con 38, Int 14, Wis 24, Cha 22
Skills Appraise +3, Balance +11, Bluff +8, Climb+22, Disguise +55, Hide +13, Jump +27, Listen +63, Move Silently +10, Perform (sing) +55, Search +7, Sleight of Hand +4, Spot +63
Feats (15+B) Aberration Blood (tail) [33], Alertness (B), Blind-Fight [21], Combat Reflexes [42], Dodge [6], Endurance [1], Flyby Attack [12], Enlarge Breath [30], Improved Flyby Attack [15], Improved Initiative (B), Inhuman Reach [36], Mage Slayer [18], Mobility [9], Pierce Magical Concealment [21], Maximize Breath [24], Heighten Breath [27], Stand Still [39], Steadfast Determination [3], Track (B)
Flaws Too Perfect (grants no feats because Maly Suano doesn’t need any)
Treasure Lots of jewelry made from platinum, gold, silver, bronze, copper, brass, adamantine and mithral, set with emeralds, rubies, sapphires, diamonds, topazes and crystals in every colour, totalling 28,340,000 gp in worth

Ability Drain (Su): Maly Suano’s bite can drain 1d4 points of Constitution if the victim fails a Fortitude save (DC 46). Maly Suano can use this ability three times per day.

Alternate Forms (Su): Maly Suano may take the form of any Humanoid creature, as if using an alter self spell cast by a 9th-level sorcerer, except it allows Maly Suano to take only Humanoid forms instead of Giant forms. Maly Suano may do this at will as a standard action.

Awesome Beauty (Su): This ability affects all humanoids within 30 ft of Maly Suano. Those who look directly at it must succeed on a Will save (DC 16) or be shaken for 1 minute. A creature that remains in range and continues to look at Maly Suano must continue to make saving throws against this ability every round. A successful saving throw while already shaken does not free the creature from the effect of the initial failed save. A failed save throw while shaken resets the duration of the shaken condition. Maly Suano can suppress or resume this ability as a free action. This is a mind-affecting fear effect.

Blood Dependency (Ex): If Maly Suano does not use its blood drain special attack against at least one living foe each day, it must make a DC 15 Fortitude save or become fatigued. Each day after the first that it does not drink blood directly from a living creature, the DC increases by 1 until it fails the save and becomes fatigued. After that, it must make a DC 20 Fortitude save each week (with the DC increasing by 1 each week thereafter) that it does not use its blood drain or become exhausted.
The fatigue or exhaustion caused by blood dependency cannot be eliminated by rest (though magic can offset the condition until Maly Suano fails another save). Using its blood drain ability eliminates Maly Suano’s fatigue immediately, or reduces exhaustion to fatigue.

Blood Drain (Ex): As a half-vampire, Maly Suano can suck blood from a living victim with its fangs by making a successful grapple check. If it pins the foe, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution drain each round the pin is maintained. It can’t drain more points of Contitution in a single hour than its Constitution score. When a half-vampire drains a victim’s Constitution, it gains 5 temporary hit points, no matter how many points it drains. Temporary hit points gained in this way last for up to 1 hour.

Breath Weapon (Su): Maly Suano’s breath weapon is a 30 ft line of prismatic light that deals 6d8 points of acid damage, 6d8 points of cold damage, 6d8 points of electricity damage, 6d10 points of fire damage, 6d8 points of force damage and 6d8 points of sonic damage. A successful Reflex save (DC 46) reduces damage by half. Creatures who fail their Reflex save are also blinded for 1d4 rounds. Creatures caught in the line must also succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 46) and a Will save (DC 46). Those who fail the Fortitude save gain 1 negative level and are deafened for 1d4 rounds. Those who fail the Will save are panicked for 1d4 rounds. If directed at a body of water, this breath weapon evaporates 1 cubic foot of water per point of damage dealt. Maly Suano can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage with its breath weapon. It can use its breath weapon once every 1d4 rounds.

Cause Rain (Su): Maly Suano can breathe storm clouds three times per day, cuasing rain. The rain lasts for 2d4 hours and extends in a 2-mile radius centered on Maly Suano.

Change Shape (Su): As a standard action, Maly Suano can change into a pseudonatural half-beast form, tentacle and hairy and all tooth and claw, but yet still divinely beautiful and strong.
Medium Hybrid: Str +46, Dex +34, Con +34, +28 natural armor, 50 ft, climb 20 ft, swim 30 ft, fly 40 ft (good), bite secondary attack (1d6+Str)
Maly Suano cannot be flanked in its Hybrid Form, and it’s not subject to critical hits. Material Plane creatures take a -1 morale penalty on attack rolls against Maly Suano in this form
Bite +76 melee (1d6+44), 2 claws +49 melee (1d4+22), 4 tentacles +49 melee (1d4+22)
Blindsense (Ex): A dire bat uses echolocation to pinpoint creatures within 40 feet and so does Maly Suano in its Hybrid Form. Opponents still have total concealment against it unless it can actually see them.
Disease (Ex): Filth fever—bite, Fortitude DC 63, incubation period 1d3 days, damage 1d3 Dex and 1d3 Con. The save DC is Constitution-based. Maly Suano’s bite attack applies the filth fever disease while in its Hybrid Form.
Ferocity (Ex): A boar is such a tenacious combatant that it continues to fight without penalty even while disabled or dying, and so does Maly Suano in its Hybrid Form.
Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, Maly Suano must hit with a bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake.
Hold Breath (Ex): Maly Suano can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 4 x its Constitution score before it risks drowning.
Keen Scent (Ex): Maly Suano can notice creatures by scent in a 180-foot radius and can detect blood in the water at a range of up to 1 mile.
Pounce (Ex): If Maly Suano charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.
Rake (Ex): Attack bonus +49 melee, damage 1d6+22.
Trip (Ex): If Maly Suano hits with a bite attack, it can attempt to trip the opponent (+44 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip Maly Suano.

Minotaur Cunning (Ex): Maly Suano has a +4 bonus on Intelligence checks to escape maze spells and the ability to determine which direction is north automatically.

Roar (Ex): Maly Suano can roar three times per day, creating a sound resembling metal scraping against stone. All creatures within 60 ft are automatically deafened for 1 round (no save).

Sound Imitation (Ex): Maly Suano can imitate any voice or sound it has heard. Will save DC 16 to detect the ruse.

Spell-like abilities: DCs are Charisma-based (10 + spell level + 6).
At will--charm person, disguise self, empathy.
5/day--plane shift.
3/day--blink, blur, darkness, detect law, ethereal jaunt, holy aura, poison, protection from evil, protection from law, unholy aura.
2/day--horrid wilting, obscuring mist.
1/day--acid fog, aid, air walk, blasphemy, bless, burning hands, chain lightning, charm (mass), charm monster (mass), cone of cold, confusion, contagion, control water, control weather, control winds, cure serious wounds, desecrate, destruction, detect evil, dispel evil, dominate person, earthquake, elemental swarm*, enlarge person, enthrall, eyebite, faerie fire, fire shield, fire seeds, firestorm, flaming sphere, fog cloud, gaseous form, geas/quest, geas (lesser), glitterdust, hallow, hold monster, holy smite, holy word, ice storm, implosion, incendiary cloud, insanity, invisibility, invisibility (greater), invisibility (mass), iron body, magic stone, neutralize poison, Otto’s irresistible dance, produce flame, reduce person, remove disease, resurrection, scintillating pattern, sleep, speak with animals, soften earth and stone, spike stones, stinking cloud, stone shape, stoneskin, suggestion, suggestion (mass), summon monster IX**, Tasha’s hideous laughter, telekinesis, touch of idiocy, unhallow, unholy blight, wall of fire, wall of stone, water breathing, whirlwind, wind wall.

*Elemental Swarm can be used 1/day for each of the four elemental types.
**Summon Monster IX can be used 1/day to summon only celestials, 1/day to summon only fiends and 1/day to summon only pseudonatural animals or vermin. Select any celestial or fiendish animal or vermin that could be summoned by summon monster IX, but apply the pseudonatural template to the creature in place of the celestial or fiendish template.

Water Fire (Su): Six times per day, Maly Suano can surround itself in an aura of ghostly, flickering, multi-coloured flames while touching or submerged in water. The flames cause damage to any creature touching Maly Suano. Any creature that successfully hits Maly Suano with a natural weapon or a melee weapon causes the attacker to take 1d6 points of fire damage. This ability lasts for 1 minute or until it comes in contact with normal or magical fire. If the water fire is dispelled by fire, Maly Suano cannot activate this ability again for 2d6 minutes.

Barknotes:
For Maly Suano’s Half-Doppelganger part I made it so Maly Suano could simply access all Humanoid forms instead of just three, as if applying the Half-Doppelganger template several times, but not allowing the Wisdom bonus to stack with itself each time.

For the Half-Dragon parts I applied a special rule, being that I would not allow the ability score bonuses and such to stack from multiple Half-Dragon templates, otherwise Maly Suano would have over 500 Strength, over 200 Constitution and over 100 Intelligence, Charisma and natural armor. Furthermore, I sort of merged all the breath weapons together, adding up their damage (but making energy damage of the same type overlap) and area (hence a 30 ft line) and allowing Maly Suano to use it at will every 1d4 rounds. This for the sake of making it easy for me mostly, otherwise Maly Suano would have 32 different breath weapons! Merging the breath weapons might create a bit of an overkill attack, but I figure that that makes up for the much lower ability scores and natural armor, plus creating a much more elegant outcome. For this reason, I also had any Half-Dragon templates beyond the first apply only a +1 CR modifier.

For the Half-Fey part, I simply allowed Maly Suano to have the “X or Y 1/day” spell-like abilities as “X and Y 1/day”. Kind of like applying the Half-Fey template twice, except in limited fashion. The fey blood is strong in this one. Besides, some of the SLAs refer to spells that were removed from the 3.5 update.

For the Half-Janni part, I simply counted its Planar Jaunt ability to be the same as Planeshift, even though it’s normally limited to a handful of planes. It doesn’t really matter much when you can already shift to any plane a bunch of times per day, so one can just fluff it as the abilities synergizing and upgrading Planar Jaunt to Planeshift.

I have left out some of the Mongrelfolk abilities, because they are not relevant (no ranks in UMD, no longer Humanoid type, etc).

For the spell-like abilities, I simply did not feel like looking up all the spell levels to calculate the DCs for the spells that have them. :P

... Why is Mongrelfolk Necessary... :smallconfused:

DigoDragon

2012-03-28, 07:54 AM

As do I. :/ So annoying. Unless they're actually playing Toon, or whatever that RPG is.
Wanna try that one sometime, I must admit.

It's a fun game system for quick one-night adventures. Useable in any genre too.

Speaking of, I had a mary sue from a Toon game my brother ran. Dimwitted wolfgirl demon with a size-changing ability and luck that was inversely proportional to how intelligent her ideas were.
Since INT was her dump stat, she never failed at anything that didn't require thought. :smallbiggrin:

and then my brother handed her a two-color Rubik's cube...

Morph Bark

2012-03-28, 09:29 AM

... Why is Mongrelfolk Necessary... :smallconfused:

Because there aren't Half-Orc, Half-Elf, Half-Goblin, Half-Gnome, Half-Halfling and Half-Dwarf templates. With this, Maly Suano is still human at its(/her/his) core, but with the blood of a load of other creatures mixed in. :smallwink:

Talya

2012-03-28, 12:48 PM

I still don't get this. Any Weber fan who's read the books can clearly see that Hamish is his Mary Sue/Author Avatar. Well, except for those heretics who support Benjamin.:smallbiggrin:

I only got through the first 6 books or so before I got fed up with it.

The Glyphstone

2012-03-28, 01:33 PM

I only got through the first 6 books or so before I got fed up with it.

I still maintain that people who consider Honor a Sue of any kind are missing Weber's entire theme and message of the series (that he's quite serious about, since it's a common thread in all his writings), but YMMV. Though we're digressing off the topic a bit too far.

Zale

2012-03-28, 04:23 PM

But I stripped her of her Sue powers! I should just skip the tricky no-loophole wording and just say "stripped of all Mary Sue powers and abilities".

Besides, if she became an overdeity, we wouldn't have to worry about her anymore. Sure, people might pray to her, but she really couldn't be involved in the world anymore. And bad things happen to those who wish to become greater than overdeities. The original creator of the universe himself would be forced to take action, and he cannot be swayed by any influence that comes from the descendants of the ones he created.

Alternatively, I could just trap her soul in a gem. Or, you know, Deck of Many Things, the one truly impartial force in the universe that mortals and gods know of.

There is only one force stronger than the whims of Mary Sue. (http://www.interrobangstudios.com/potluck/index.php?strip_id=1062)

Ravens_cry

2012-03-28, 06:17 PM

There is only one force stronger than the whims of Mary Sue. (http://www.interrobangstudios.com/potluck/index.php?strip_id=1062)
No! You'll only make it spread (http://www.interrobangstudios.com/potluck/index.php?strip_id=1066)!:smalleek:

INoKnowNames

2012-03-28, 06:37 PM

http://imaginelifewithoutx.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/motherofgod.png?w=325&h=368

Hunter Noventa

2012-03-28, 06:48 PM

My current campaign has a Mad Scientist and his Sentai team of mecha pilots, he broek the campaign because his own villain and his evil robot schemes have sorta usurped the main plot for a while now.

This is a Pathfinder/3.5 Gestalt game, where my character is basically what you'd get if you made a Nanoha character based on the God Gundam.

My character is the God Gundam. As a catgirl. And is usually fighting alongside a sentai team. This campaign is almost Mary Sue incarnate, if it weren't for the other characters.

Ravens_cry

2012-03-28, 06:55 PM

And there in lies some of the differences. A parody Mary Sue often has certain traits, but if a character can share the spotlight with other character, they probably are not a Mary Sue.
To paraphrase Syndrome, if everyone is a Mary Sue, no one is.
Aside from that, a lot of RPG player characters probably would be Mary Sue if you wrote out their adventures because the story is about them, and focuses on them, and it is a rare DM who will shift perspective for a third person 'cutscene', though I have heard it happening.
The original dark drow was probably a fun character to play, a badass outsider who rejected his evil culture who has a magic panther and duel wields twin scimitar, yeah baby.
Put that bad boy in print on the other hand . . .

Taelas

2012-03-28, 07:01 PM

A Mary Sue is a force of plot so strong that she does not need to adhere to established canon--established canon is wrenched, hauled, and crushed into shape fitting the Sue.

It doesn't matter if the setting doesn't allow for a half-dragon half-vampire half-nymph half-succubi elf princess who was taught all classes at once and is perfect at all of them, and who is the most beautiful creature to ever live. She forces herself into existence.

Only she doesn't fight, because that's mean. Instead, she defeats her opponents through the power of friendship and love. (Only platonic love, because her One True Love is Out There--though no one can tell exactly who that is, as she's chased by every major male character (both good and bad).)

That is also why she will only use Good magic, even though if she wanted to use Evil magic, she would totally be the best evah at it, but she doesn't.

And her tears can raise the dead. (This is very handy, as the only time she cries is when one of the friends has died, and she has to mourn them.)

The original dark drow was probably a fun character to play, a badass outsider who rejected his evil culture who has a magic panther and duel wields twin scimitar, yeah baby.
Put that bad boy in print on the other hand . . .
Actually, Drizzt was never a player character. He was made up for the first Drizzt novel (the first book of the Icewind Dale trilogy). In fact, the book wasn't supposed to be about Drizzt at all; it was originally meant to be about his friend Wulfgar. Salvatore made up Drizzt when he needed a sidekick for Wulfgar. (The way he describes it, he came up with him pretty much instantaneously when put on the spot by an editor.)

Ravens_cry

2012-03-28, 09:17 PM

Actually, Drizzt was never a player character. He was made up for the first Drizzt novel (the first book of the Icewind Dale trilogy). In fact, the book wasn't supposed to be about Drizzt at all; it was originally meant to be about his friend Wulfgar. Salvatore made up Drizzt when he needed a sidekick for Wulfgar. (The way he describes it, he came up with him pretty much instantaneously when put on the spot by an editor.)
Oh dear.:smalleek:
It is a bit funny though, the first I read was Streams of Silver, years before I played D&D, but couldn't find the other two.
Now I own the first and third but not the second.

MukkTB

2012-03-29, 02:03 AM

Honor is powerful, favored by the world, and without any serious flaws. However I don't think the blame should be the same.

First of all Honor Harrington is just Horatio Hornblower IN SPACE. Horatio started from the bottom and worked his way up. Its expected that Honor should do the same. Furthermore Honor is a victim of the length of the series. The book formula is that the good guys win in the end. Drama demands a challenge. Therefore there is a hard situation which they beat. Then they have to beat a harder situation in the next book, and again, and again. Fighting one other ship in a backwater grew into fighting the entire Terran empire.

Also I'm still fairly peeved at peoples use of Sue. Being a badly written character is a "crime." Being a female with a power fantasy is not. Its the quality of the writing that important.

Edit - Also any of you guys complaining about Sues who DON'T have power fantasies raise your hands. I mean those ones of you who are playing point buy 10 commoners. Everyone else here is a hypocrite who just upset that somebody else's power fantasy went 'too far' or wasn't told well enough.

Morph Bark

2012-03-29, 04:59 AM

And there in lies some of the differences. A parody Mary Sue often has certain traits, but if a character can share the spotlight with other character, they probably are not a Mary Sue.
To paraphrase Syndrome Commander Badass, if everyone is a Mary Sue, no one is.
Aside from that, a lot of RPG player characters probably would be Mary Sue if you wrote out their adventures because the story is about them, and focuses on them, and it is a rare DM who will shift perspective for a third person 'cutscene', though I have heard it happening.
The original dark drow was probably a fun character to play, a badass outsider who rejected his evil culture who has a magic panther and duel wields twin scimitar, yeah baby.
Put that bad boy in print on the other hand . . .

Fixed that for you.

Ravens_cry

2012-03-29, 06:25 AM

Fixed that for you.
As much as I love the Commander, a hot, sexy love that transcends gender and medium, I was paraphrasing Syndrome.

Talya

2012-03-29, 06:26 AM

Also I'm still fairly peeved at peoples use of Sue. Being a badly written character is a "crime." Being a female with a power fantasy is not. Its the quality of the writing that important.

If Honor Harrington was written well, this wouldn't be an issue. The fact is, the series reads like a some 13 year old's fantasy. Furthermore, she's not a woman. She's a boy's masculine hero given a superficial sexual reassignment. In literary terms, she's Athena.

Morph Bark

2012-03-29, 07:16 AM

As much as I love the Commander, a hot, sexy love that transcends gender and medium, I was paraphrasing Syndrome.

I actually thought first of the comic (http://thepunchlineismachismo.com/archives/540) and wasn't entirely sure if it was the Commander or Jared and apparently went with the wrong one. Didn't even think of what he said in the movie until now. :smalltongue:

Calanon

2012-03-29, 07:20 AM

If Honor Harrington was written well, this wouldn't be an issue. The fact is, the series reads like a some 13 year old's fantasy. Furthermore, she's not a woman. She's a boy's masculine hero given a superficial sexual reassignment. In literary terms, she's Athena.

Will you marry me? :smallbiggrin:

Fixed that for you. :cool:

Fixed, needed Sunglasses :smalltongue:

As much as I love the Commander, a hot, sexy love that transcends gender and medium, I was paraphrasing Syndrome.

I'll just leave it at this... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZI7BjHqvC0&feature=player_detailpage#t=7s)

Anywho! Everybody by now should know how I (and I'm confident how everyone else) feels about Mary Sue... She makes Baator seem more pleasant then where ever she is currently "living" :smallannoyed:

INoKnowNames

2012-03-29, 07:20 AM

Hm... What exactly do you guys define as a Mary/Marty Sue for this sort of thing? A lot of people have Power Fantasies, and if it's bad enough it could lapse into that definition, but I don't think that alone justifies it unless it's, as mentioned, really bad. Like a Level 1 Commoner on a 10 point buy defeating Multiple Gods in Battle at Once due to Munkining.

I feel like there should be things in the game that exist that are as good, if not better, than you at certain things. You have to be challenged by something. Unless you specifically specialize in that field, anyway. And if you do, you can't also be a -master- of every single other field; someone has to be able to beat you in things you don't focus on, and you can't be able to focus on everything.

Although a lot of what a M-Sue is stems more from the reaction of the world to them. Being marveled at a warrior-type going into battle against a Dragon and winning is acceptable. That'd a pretty good accomplishment, and one of the standards of the generic fantasy type. The entire universe, good or bad, bowing at your feet every time you so much as fart, and giving into your every single demand, or pretty much anything that can really be called out as ridiculous (like the preceeding sentence) is where M-Sue seems like an appropriate tag.

Man on Fire

2012-03-29, 07:27 AM

Sentient tank wearing F-16

Talya

2012-03-29, 08:09 AM

Will you marry me? :smallbiggrin:

Awww. My husband might get irritated, though. And the legal status of polyandry in Canada is still tied up in the courts.

Nerd-o-rama

2012-03-29, 09:10 AM

There are a lot of different versions of Mary Sue. For my examples, it really depends on where you want to draw the line:

My real character (Changeling Duskblade Jade Phoenix Mage Orphan Princess Mecha Pilot) was someone who shouldn't have normally existed within the bounds of her setting, but I got away with it because it was a comedy game. She was more over-the-top than...some of the other characters, but she didn't hog the entire plotline. She fit some of the most common Mary Sue criteria, but not all.

My hypothetical character is just a build that I compared to "Mary Sue" because he or she would gain so many, many benefits just from sheer force of personality (Charisma). It was also inspired by another character I played with who pulled many of the same tricks and was also arguably a Mary Sue but, again, did not take over the plot. She was just pretty much invincible and impossible to dislike. That game benefited from being a sandbox where she could go off and do her own things and the other characters could go off and do their own things.

Really, the nature of D&D as a cooperative game with rules (no matter how easily those rules are warped and broken into unintentional monstrosities) prevents most player characters from being True Mary Sues, because it's just about impossible to warp the world to your liking without steamrolling everyone you're playing with. You can get over-the-top and ridiculous characters, but to really be a Mary Sue, you need everyone else's out of character cooperation, coerced or willing.

Now, DMPCs on the other hand...

INoKnowNames

2012-03-29, 09:21 AM

The only reason I assumed your upper example to be a Mary Sue is because you referenced Burning Gundam (yes, I know he's really God Gundam, but I grew up liking Burning a bit more as a name). And Domon, if not a Mary Sue, was at least strattling the line toward Boring Invincible Hero. You -knew- how every single match would end when he fought. Unless he randomly lost or tied in a match. And his finger would still be involved.

There are a lot of examples of characters that do have lots of social skills and such that use them as much as they can, but I don't think it's in the execution. I don't think it's the odd, obtuse character builds and weird combinations of talents, at least not by themselves.

Yeah, it's definitely a reaction. It's how others treat that character or are compared to them that really determines the Suishness, rather than what they do. If it's appropriate for the world, or if others are about that possess other special qualities, then it's probably not Suish. But when you have that character that can do -everything- perfectly without any worry, and who warps everything to be just the way they want it, and absolutely no one or no thing can do anything about it, then it gets Suish.

Upper Tier characters and DMPCs are very good at being Sues.

Nerd-o-rama

2012-03-29, 10:37 AM

The Glyphstone

2012-03-29, 10:44 AM

First of all Honor Harrington is just Horatio Hornblower IN SPACE. Horatio started from the bottom and worked his way up. Its expected that Honor should do the same. Furthermore Honor is a victim of the length of the series. The book formula is that the good guys win in the end. Drama demands a challenge. Therefore there is a hard situation which they beat. Then they have to beat a harder situation in the next book, and again, and again. Fighting one other ship in a backwater grew into fighting the entire Terran empire.

There's also the timeskip framework Weber uses, that I think gets lost on a lot of people. It looks like she just shrugs off the worst injuries and traumas without lasting effect, but that's because Weber has months or years go by in between books, where her physical and psychological treatment periods can be glossed over. I tend to see Honor's successes as evidence she's not (supposed to be) a Sue of any sort, because Weber is an absolute sadist towards her - like you said, the escalation of the conflict over 13 books and 21 years of warfare, but he just keeps raising the tempo in the horrible things he does to her then taking 'time off' to heal so he can do it all over again, but worse. And that's bypassing the bit where, in At All Costs:

She was scheduled to die in the final battle, and have the narrative take up with her children once they were of age. Flint screwed up the timeline, though - but you don't deliberately kill off, or intend to kill off, your own avatar/Sue and leave her dead, that's an essential element of the trope.

If Honor Harrington was written well, this wouldn't be an issue. The fact is, the series reads like a some 13 year old's fantasy. Furthermore, she's not a woman. She's a boy's masculine hero given a superficial sexual reassignment. In literary terms, she's Athena.

So your issue is more with how Weber writes his female protagonists in general, then? They all pretty much follow the same general template, tweaked to the specific universe he's writing in...and geez, don't ever go near his Safehold books; the protagonist there spends all of 2 chapters from the first book as a woman before literally being sex-changed into a man for the next 5 books and counting, earning a single throwaway joke about the issue in said 5 books.

Talya

2012-03-29, 10:59 AM

There's also the timeskip framework Weber uses, that I think gets lost on a lot of people. It looks like she just shrugs off the worst injuries and traumas without lasting effect, but that's because Weber has months or years go by in between books.

I actually never had an issue with the injuries. There are just so many Sueish components of her stories, even apart from her immediately becoming the best at anything she tries to do (eg. commanding a starship, hand-to-hand combat, pistol duelling, sword-fighting, piloting...oh, there's Astrogation math. She sucks at that...the traditional irrelevant sue token flaw).

For example:

(1) She has a speshul magikal cat! (And --this should be a separate point, but i'm feeling generous ... she has developed plot-unrelated psionic powers herself and is able to read the cat's mind, even though nobody else with a similar bond to a speshul magikal cat can do so!)
(2) She's drop-dead gorgeous, but thinks she is ugly.
(3) You can tell whether a newly introduced character is good or evil based on their opinion of HH.
(4) Manticore is so lucky she was the one in command at {insert battle here}, because nobody else could have done what she did. (Nevermind that she routinely trashes starships and loses the majority of her crew to gruesome deaths in every single book, while surviving relatively unscathed herself.)
(5) She's an (attempted) rape victim!
(6) She's given titles of nobility ...in two separate nations no less! And it's amazing how she carries ranks in two active navies.

INoKnowNames

2012-03-29, 11:20 AM

Yeah, comedy game. (Incidentally, I like Burning as a name better than God because it fits the name pattern with Shining and Rising. Arguably even Dark Gundam fits better than Devil because they're all descriptors for the sun. I'm on the fence there, but I like all of the other names better in their original form.)

God Finger sounds cool, but I like Burning Finger more. Darkness Finger isn't quite as good as Devil Finger, but as a theme the "Shining, Rising, Burning, Dark" does do better than God and Devil.

And Domon, for all that he wins fights easily, still faces a fair bit of hardship, especially toward the end of the show.

Oh don't give me that. Even the villains complain about how he wins his fights the second he spams his Burning Finger / Sekiha Ten Yoken (spell check needed). Even the bad guys complain that that's all he does. In Universe, his Suishness is lampshaded. We all know that in the end, we just need to wait for the music que and he's going to finger his enemy and that'll be the end of it.

EDIT: Hey, did I reference G Gundam in this thread or did you read EWGR? Or were you talking to Hunter Noventa and I'm dumb?

I think you referenced your first character having part God Gundam, actually.

Otherwise, yeah, agreed with what you said. The difference between over-the-top/overpowered and Mary Sue is in how the world reacts to them instead of the other way around.

I'm hoping not to have that issue in one of my games, actually. I recommended to the Dm a villain that he could use if he wanted any subplots to add, one who is involved in my character's backstory, and I think he's taken a shine to them. He seems to be the current Big Bad, if not at least the first focus in the game.... hopefully the other players don't mind that much.... I just asked nicely! I didn't think it'd actually work!

The Glyphstone

2012-03-29, 11:27 AM

I actually never had an issue with the injuries. There are just so many Sueish components of her stories, even apart from her immediately becoming the best at anything she tries to do (eg. commanding a starship, hand-to-hand combat, pistol duelling, sword-fighting, piloting...oh, there's Astrogation math. She sucks at that...the traditional irrelevant sue token flaw).

[QUOTE](eg. commanding a starship, hand-to-hand combat, pistol duelling, sword-fighting, piloting...oh, there's Astrogation math. She sucks at that...the traditional irrelevant sue token flaw).
The only thing she's ever 'the best at' is tactics. She's good in hand-to-hand combat because she's a genetically augmented superhuman who only fights normals (though considering that's also a very Sue-ish trait, a wash here), and I suspect that was only added so she can actually put up a fight in the ending books against Mesa's own supermen. The pistol-dueling and sword-fighting were iffy, but keep in mind she had been training with pistols since childhood versus an equally trained duelist and had 2 years of dedicated practice with swords (since she was a psychological wreck with nothing better to do), and fighting someone who'd never fought with a sword outside sport-sparring matches...if you bit an Army special forces trooper fresh out of training against a karate master who's never stepped outside the dojo, I'd bet on similar results. It's the timeframe thing again, it's easy to forget that she's actually a seventy year old woman with the body of a 20-year old racking up the commensurate experiences and practice.

I'd say her 'traditionally irrelevant flaw' is more the one her enemies lampshade in War of Honor, the fact that she's so inept at deception and lying that she's incredibly easy to manipulate when you punch her Responsibility button. But of course, her combat awesome is enough that she wins out even when you manipulate her into an impossible fight.

For example:

(1) She has a speshul magikal cat! (And --this should be a separate point, but i'm feeling generous ... she has developed plot-unrelated psionic powers herself and is able to read the cat's mind, even though nobody else with a similar bond to a speshul magikal cat can do so!)

This is rather amusing, actually, because of how frequently Weber lampshades the 'Oh, it's a special magical pet' thing in-universe from other characters. He practically starts beating you over the head with it in the later books (though you've got me on the psychic empathy bit, I have no idea - yet - why this was necessary, though it'll likely tie into the Mesa mega-arc eventually).

(2) She's drop-dead gorgeous, but thinks she is ugly.
Dunno about this, I always got the impression even other characters thought she was pretty, but not outright gorgeous - that's reserved for her mother.

(3) You can tell whether a newly introduced character is good or evil based on their opinion of HH.
Aside from Klaus Hauptman, you've got this one - 13 books in and he still doesn't like her, they're just firm allies in political agreement. Though again, the rise of Mesa muddies this - they very much want her dead and hate her, but are also Genre Savvy enough to know not to take her seriously unlike all her previous enemies. Ultimately, the Good or Evil is just because she's the public face of Good - if they're Evil, of course they will dislike/hate her. A better litmus test is Competent/Incompetent; for a Sue, all who oppose her will become weak and ineffectual, which is very much not the case.

(4) Manticore is so lucky she was the one in command at {insert battle here}, because nobody else could have done what she did.

She gets the majority of the screentime, but White Haven's almost as bad here despite being offscreen.

(Nevermind that she routinely trashes starships and loses the majority of her crew to gruesome deaths in every single book, while surviving relatively unscathed herself.)
Weber lampshades this twice, actually - once from the perspective of some lower-deck crewmen who end up on her roster (and yes, they are evil and die horribly:smallbiggrin:), and once from Hamish Alexander later in the series, right about the time she stops being given direct command of ships. Though I think he deserves more credit, linked back to your Point 1 - she never gets badly physically maimed by her wrecked ships, but it always takes a toll on her mentally...Nimitz is both a secondary character and an easy out for 'why hasn't she retired with crippling PTSD after three books'.

(5) She's an (attempted) rape victim!
No argument here. I despise Rape Is The New Dead Parents, and consider it Weber's biggest mistake with her.

(6) She's given titles of nobility ...in two separate nations no less! And it's amazing how she carries ranks in two active navies.
On patriarchal Grayson you've got a point - the whole point of Manticore's nobility structure is that you can earn admission to it, so it's hardly exceptional considering her other accomplishments, deserved or otherwise. The two-navies thing is weird, but they are allied, and she's very much not unique in this regard...it's quoted that something like 1/3 of Grayson's Navy is actually Manticorans 'on loan', because it's a tiny dirtball backwater.

Nerd-o-rama

2012-03-29, 11:35 AM

Oh don't give me that. Even the villains complain about how he wins his fights the second he spams his Burning Finger / Sekiha Ten Yoken (spell check needed). Even the bad guys complain that that's all he does. In Universe, his Suishness is lampshaded. We all know that in the end, we just need to wait for the music que and he's going to finger his enemy and that'll be the end of it.

I'm not talking about fights. The actual Gundam fights? Domon's ****ing unstoppable. But he has to deal with His brother, his master, and his brother - again - dying, even though they weren't nearly the villains they made themselves out to be in the end.

It's not that he's not boringly invincible in fights, it's that there's a good deal of emotional tragedy outside of the fights. He doesn't lose (except occasionally needing his ass saved from the Devil Gundam in the first half), but he loses people he cares about. Makes him somewhat less boring, in my opinion, and in the end, he does have to learn to deal with his main character flaw of not being able to relate to people outside of punching them.

I think you referenced your first character having part God Gundam, actually.

Well, she did call Shocking Grasp Shocking Finger once.

I'm hoping not to have that issue in one of my games, actually. I recommended to the Dm a villain that he could use if he wanted any subplots to add, one who is involved in my character's backstory, and I think he's taken a shine to them. He seems to be the current Big Bad, if not at least the first focus in the game.... hopefully the other players don't mind that much.... I just asked nicely! I didn't think it'd actually work!

No, that's just writing a good backstory/plothooks. Just because your character's story becomes a prominent part of the campaign's story doesn't mean your character is warping the world, any more than Darth Vader being Luke Skywalker's father makes Luke a Mary Sue (now, Luke is a Sue in the novels, but that's unrelated to his story prominence).

The Glyphstone

2012-03-29, 11:37 AM

It's not that he's not boringly invincible in fights, it's that there's a good deal of emotional tragedy outside of the fights. He doesn't lose (except occasionally needing his ass saved from the Devil Gundam in the first half), but he loses people he cares about. Makes him somewhat less boring, in my opinion, and in the end, he does have to learn to deal with his main character flaw of not being able to relate to people outside of punching them.

Considering this thread has been derailed in two completely different directions simultaneously, I find this one point of overlap between said derails quite entertaining.:smallcool:

Talya

2012-03-29, 11:45 AM

Lampshading does not absolve one of responsibility for creating the sue-trait!

(It does, however, make for great comedy if used properly.)

INoKnowNames

2012-03-29, 11:49 AM

I'm not talking about fights. The actual Gundam fights? Domon's ****ing unstoppable. But he has to deal with His brother, his master, and his brother - again - dying, even though they weren't nearly the villains they made themselves out to be in the end.

It's not that he's not boringly invincible in fights, it's that there's a good deal of emotional tragedy outside of the fights. He doesn't lose (except occasionally needing his ass saved from the Devil Gundam in the first half), but he loses people he cares about.

Whether or not that adds to his Sue-level or not is definitely up for grabs, but I did appreciate those losses a bit.

Makes him somewhat less boring, in my opinion, and in the end, he does have to learn to deal with his main character flaw of not being able to relate to people outside of punching them.

I'm not sure if that's a flaw, if you ask me. He did score his team mates, his master's respect, and his girlfriend (and alenby) through that trait.

Well, she did call Shocking Grasp Shocking Finger once.

Yes! Everyone shall have Adjective Fingers!

No, that's just writing a good backstory/plothooks.

I just hope the other players are okay with it... For a bit, I thought everyone suggested things to him and I just lucked out... and now it seems like a few are annoyed by it... I didn't mean to ruin a game...

Just because your character's story becomes a prominent part of the campaign's story doesn't mean your character is warping the world, any more than Darth Vader being Luke Skywalker's father makes Luke a Mary Sue (now, Luke is a Sue in the novels, but that's unrelated to his story prominence).

I suppose the biggest problem is that the game hasn't had much else to be able to immediately focus on. Even though it's been like a month in posting, we're on our second day in character.

And yeah, the Starwars Novels are kinda.... eh. Especially since the entire series just sorta repeats...

Considering this thread has been derailed in two completely different directions simultaneously, I find this one point of overlap between said derails quite entertaining.:smallcool:

It's fun when stuff comes together, even if for a moment before flying apart again.

The Glyphstone

2012-03-29, 11:55 AM

Lampshading does not absolve one of responsibility for creating the sue-trait!

(It does, however, make for great comedy if used properly.)

It's more the fact that the same points where he lampshades it are the same points in the storyline (after you gave up) where it stops appearing so frequently, giving the impression he realized what he was doing and consciously started reigning himself in, and giving himself an in-setting Take That in the process. Book 6+ is where he really ramps up the 'let's abuse Honor' complex he's got, while simultaneously patching the more egregious problems with the narrative structure.

Talya

2012-03-29, 11:59 AM

I did get past the book where she took the converted freighter into Silesian space (with the evil people who lampshade that HH kills all her crew.)

The Glyphstone

2012-03-29, 12:12 PM

Okay, that was book 5, so you've been there. 6 is where she gets captured and sentenced to death. Obviously (because there are 7 more books) she escapes, though the manner of how it's arranged is pretty awesome, and the end of Book 6 is where the 'sucks to be Honor' trend cranks up.

MukkTB

2012-03-29, 01:08 PM

Talya

2012-03-29, 01:16 PM

David Weber is good for his space battles. Beyond that... meh whatever.

D&D players doni't have any business calling another player a Mary Sue. Not when they're running characters smarter than any mortal, strong as giants, capable of wielding eldritch magic, of kicking monster ass. D&D is a self insert power fantasy. At the core you guys are making fun of people who can't tell good stories but think they can. Its not the power fantasy. Its not the self insertedness. Its the qualty of the storytelling. At least be honest if you're going to mock people.

yeah, see...

In all seriousness, RPG characters are far more acceptible places for Mary Sues than in fiction. This is because RPG characters are actually supposed to represent the player in the story, or at least someone the player would like to be every once in a while. Likewise, minimizing one's flaws and maximizing one's abilities is a normal part of character development, which you do just to survive.

As such, almost all of us have played a Mary Sue to one extent or another. It doesn't mean they'd make a good story in novel form.

The Glyphstone

2012-03-29, 01:17 PM

David Weber is good for his space battles. Beyond that... meh whatever.

More his naval battles in general, primarily because he gleefully embraces Space Is An Ocean in his physics. His other flagship series, the Safehold books, is almost 100% Age of Sail fleets + tactics, and there the ocean-going fight scenes are also the best part of his books.

Taelas

2012-03-29, 01:17 PM

Uh, seeing as we're using the term Mary Sue, I think that's kind of obvious, skipper.

Hazzardevil

2012-03-29, 01:20 PM

I find it hard to understand why no-one has mentioned the 1000 8 ft tall men who dress in blue and white armour, with a blue and red armoured leader who is the spiritual liege of all other angels of death in the grim dark future.

kardar233

2012-03-29, 01:27 PM

We don't talk about him.

No, the grim dark doomed universe is just as doomed as ever, and you don't Falcon Punch greater daemons. You get sliced in half and like it.

Talya

2012-03-29, 01:28 PM

hamishspence

2012-03-29, 01:30 PM

Marneus Calgar of the Ultramarines Chapter (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Marneus_Calgar#.T3Sp-FFBToA)

Talya

2012-03-29, 01:32 PM

I know nothing about Warhammer.

The Glyphstone

2012-03-29, 01:35 PM

hamishspence

2012-03-29, 01:44 PM

I know nothing about Warhammer.

The TV tropes Warhammer 40K page sums it up fairly well. Some 40K characters do seem to be having quite successful lives at the moment (based on the most recent books with them in).

Ciaphas Cain springs to mind.

Das Platyvark

2012-03-29, 04:27 PM

INoKnowNames

2012-03-29, 04:47 PM

Honestly, I don't know if I'm entirely justified in classifying her as such, but she annoys me enough that I like to. (She scored a 74 on the Mary Sue litmus test (http://www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm), but I may have had slight bias in filling it out :smalltongue: )

Ooooooh, a Test. I gotta fill this out twice, since I've got 2 characters (the aforementioned possible campaign ruined for attaching himself to the plot, and a Healer who will most likely score very high on the test, probably being very close to a Purity Sue) I'd like to judge.

Edit: Do I have to include things that would rank as Class Features or things provided by Race or Stats? Like knowing 4 languages beyond Common because of a high Intelligence, or having different hair than a human because he's specifically a Silverbrow Human?

The Glyphstone

2012-03-29, 06:36 PM

Ooooooh, a Test. I gotta fill this out twice, since I've got 2 characters (the aforementioned possible campaign ruined for attaching himself to the plot, and a Healer who will most likely score very high on the test, probably being very close to a Purity Sue) I'd like to judge.

Edit: Do I have to include things that would rank as Class Features or things provided by Race or Stats? Like knowing 4 languages beyond Common because of a high Intelligence, or having different hair than a human because he's specifically a Silverbrow Human?

Of course you do. Being a Silverbrow Human or being a Half-God Half-Vampire-Half-Werewolf-Half-Elf are both races, and the Sue Test knows no mercy.

In fact, Silverbrow Human would score you points for appearance, and more points for having a nonhuman ancestor.

Hiro Protagonest

2012-03-29, 06:46 PM

Edit: Do I have to include things that would rank as Class Features or things provided by Race or Stats? Like knowing 4 languages beyond Common because of a high Intelligence, or having different hair than a human because he's specifically a Silverbrow Human?

Not for the unusual physical traits. For example, I wouldn't count Moonsilver Tattoos and a Tell against Lunars, and whether a particular trait is "unusual" depends on race/class combo (unless the character has more than one template).

INoKnowNames

2012-03-29, 07:05 PM

Of course you do. Being a Silverbrow Human or being a Half-God Half-Vampire-Half-Werewolf-Half-Elf are both races, and the Sue Test knows no mercy.

In fact, Silverbrow Human would score you points for appearance, and more points for having a nonhuman ancestor.

Oh come on, there's a difference between being born of 500 different races yet being completely unintelligble from an "attractive" human being and being a hybrid of one, especially of Dragons, since Dragons are like freaking Zeus....

Since Silverbrow Humans are considered a Race, do I have to say yes to "Eye/Hair Coloration not normally found in species"? And I fluffed my Bardic Fascinate Ability to work a bit like "Hypnotic Eyes", (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HypnoticEyes) because Persuading people with Music to be hypnotised just seemed lame. Does that make me cost points with "Eyes with Unusual Qualities" and/or "particularly piercing gaze"?

Not for the unusual physical traits. For example, I wouldn't count Moonsilver Tattoos and a Tell against Lunars, and whether a particular trait is "unusual" depends on race/class combo (unless the character has more than one template).

The character in question is a Bard//Cruasder 7. I can post his sheet if you wouldn't mind judging a bit.

This is an interesting topic...

Nerd-o-rama

2012-03-29, 08:30 PM

The character in question is a Bard//Cruasder 7. I can post his sheet if you wouldn't mind judging a bit.

Well if you're playing gestalt that's kind of an automatic Mary Sue.

In this case, I'm using "Mary Sue" in the sense of "thing I don't like".

kardar233

2012-03-29, 08:38 PM

Trust me, you're better off. The mark of a Sue in the Warhammer verse(s) is how horribly they can die while still completely failing in everything they could ever hope to have accomplished, to where characters try to out-fail each other and it eventually wraps around into utter success (because the only thing more grimdark than total failure is having your enemy fail even worse because of your failure).

The mark of a Sue in 40K is someone who succeeds against the onrushing hordes of murderous everythings in a repeatable fashion. The mark of 40K is that the evil guys will always win eventually, and heroics are inevitably useless.

As I posted elsewhere:

There is no worth of the individual. You could be Count Leon Heinrich von Trumpador the Seventeenth, the greatest warrior to come out of Mordia's training academies, but that won't stop you from having your torso evaporated by some untrained idiot waving his gun over his head. There is no "Hero Immunity"; just because you're the main character it doesn't mean that you suddenly become invulnerable to everything short of shurikens and lightning. In a fight between a character and five faceless mooks, you bet on the faceless mooks. No matter how cool, awesome or well-trained you are, you can and will still die to the unnamed, faceless masses. Because there are more of them.

INoKnowNames

2012-03-29, 08:41 PM

Well if you're playing gestalt that's kind of an automatic Mary Sue.

In this case, I'm using "Mary Sue" in the sense of "thing I don't like".

Well that's not very fair. You can dislike things and like -some- Mary Sues, and you can like things and dislike Mary Sues, so you're totally not being fair here. I call shenanigans.

Seriously though, the campaign is Gestalt (though the NPCS seem to still be Single Class NPCs, so only actual enemies seem to be a threat). There's quite a diverse party, maybe I should have them take this test, too. See who ranks where.

I'm not sure what I can write off as (it's a class ability and we're playing D&D) and what is a genuine mark of Sueness when it comes to things that, while yes I'm guilty of, it's completely appropriate on my character sheet with absolutely no shenanigans and completely rules as written and approved by the DM.

The Glyphstone

2012-03-29, 08:43 PM

INoKnowNames

2012-03-29, 08:49 PM

Just gleefully embrace the Sueosity and don't stress about it. This whole thing came about from the claim/point that most PCs would qualify as Sues if placed into any sort of fictional novel context anyways.

http://www.niubie.com/up/2008/04/noooooo.jpg
Laugh and you go to hell.

I don't want to have written a bad character and made a good game less than it could be! ;.;

Although I'm at least not ranking in 50+. I'm in about mid 20-30, give or take, considering what may or may not be allowed to automatically qualify. Is it my fault that the Bard has so many abilities to roll with?

Hiro Protagonest

2012-03-29, 09:07 PM

River Song :smallsigh:

Honestly, I don't know if I'm entirely justified in classifying her as such, but she annoys me enough that I like to. (She scored a 74 on the Mary Sue litmus test (http://www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm), but I may have had slight bias in filling it out :smalltongue: )

Alright, I tried that for my Exalted character. Got 51 out of 93 (91 main section, 2 in part 4), but hey, I'm supposed to be a special person with unique and powerful abilities when playing a Solar/Lunar/Abyssal/Infernal. My character doesn't exactly have a tragic backstory or most Sue personality traits (thinks of self as ugly, exceedingly modest, etc.), though.

Ravens_cry

2012-03-29, 09:14 PM

I got a 28 for my first (free form) RPG character, so not bad I guess.
The trouble is that one can make an Anti-Sue that is still very much a Sue. After all, a 180 degree turn is just a mirror image.

Coidzor

2012-03-29, 09:25 PM

I'm in about mid 20-30, give or take, considering what may or may not be allowed to automatically qualify. Is it my fault that the Bard has so many abilities to roll with?

20-30 is perfectly fine as long as you're not acting up. :smallconfused:

3.X Bards don't really get all that much in the way of unique abilities, though I suppose you'd take a minimum or 3 or so points from the musical section as a given. Especially since if your bard exists, odds are there's other bards in the setting...

My Wildshaping Ranger/Master of Many Forms got most of his 21 score because we're playing in a setting where druids are relatively rare and the fact that I have to have a patron deity granting me my piddly number of spells rather than it being hazy like in the default. He'd have been like a 16 or so without those setting tweaks.

INoKnowNames

2012-03-29, 09:51 PM

Another character I've planned out (and I'm not surprised at this at all), could potentially score a 92 on this test. Female Human Healer of 18 Years who will take Sacred Vow, Vow of Non Violence, and Vow of Peace. And earn Saint Hood. Also, she has a Wolf Wild Cohort that will eventually be augmented through the Exalted Companion Template, and will be joined by a Quoatl Companion. And since she took Dynamic Priest at 1st level, all of her abilities are governed by her Charisma.... Oh, and her Mom and family through them were Celestials (Mom being just half, so the Healer doesn't get the template. It just justifies her spellcasting).

I completely expected a result like this for her, actually. Purity Sue is one of the more common types, and it's not like she's specifically making the world bend to her just because. She's doing it as a servant to the Gods, essentially acting like Jesus.

Ravens_cry

2012-03-29, 10:35 PM

@INoKnowNames (last page):
Yeah. . . that might actually turn out to be a Mary Sue in game, considering how disruptive those feats potentially can be to a party as a whole.
I'm not saying it's not workable, just take care.

INoKnowNames

2012-03-29, 10:39 PM

Yeah. . . that might actually turn out to be a Mary Sue in game, considering how disruptive those feats can be to the party as a whole.
I'm not saying it's not workable, just take care.

I know that one's going to end up being quite a gamble, but it's one that's been fully expected and everyone's aware that that's the path she's going to take. It'll be hard, but fun, and I've actually already come to like her as a character.

On a random note, Leadership is banned in that game, so that's one thing she won't be abusing.

Talakeal

2012-03-29, 10:43 PM

INoKnowNames

2012-03-29, 10:48 PM

That test is very odd, or I am not using it right.

I am not sure how to make a character in any sort of heroic fiction that isn't a borderline Sue, and most characters in my setting score several hundred.

It's also weird that a person who has "real" qualities such as life experience, making mistakes, and having regrets is far more Sue than someone who simply sits around in their mansion for their whole life telling their harem how awesome they are.

And the fact that the into to the test tells you that these are just indicators and not to take them too seriously, but at the end tells you that there is no hope for your characters and you need to start over from scratch.

Most things created by fans are. Otherwise, we could use this to determine what circle of Hell we belong in. (http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv) On a random note, I just took it, and landed Purgatory. Holy Crap!

It's still ultimately about how the world responds to the characters. For the second character I quized, I can see the results being a lot lower, at least if no one attempts to push the Charisma = Appearance aspect, and note that some of the things, like converting bad people to good or gaining respect from peers, might be understandable if the character becomes a genuine Saint.

It's kinda hard not to respect the Pope. Or Mother Teresa.

Crasical

2012-03-29, 11:08 PM

If I was going to play a Mary Sue, I'd play a Half Elf Bard with Perform: Oratory. She'd be beautiful and fey and wonderful. I'd pump Diplomacy and then use the racial variant of bard for half-elves to swap Fascinate for Calm Emotions, so anytime a battle would break out I'd bust that out and steal the spotlight by calming everyone down and then diplomancing the evildoers into following her most wonderful purityness. Being able to be a relationship-destroyer and seduce any canon NPC I set my sights on is just a bonus.

Coidzor

2012-03-30, 12:31 AM

Another character I've planned out (and I'm not surprised at this at all), could potentially score a 92 on this test. Female Human Healer of 18 Years who will take Sacred Vow, Vow of Non Violence, and Vow of Peace.

....That's just a bad mixture with regards to playing the game, especially for the people playing with you. :smalleek:

INoKnowNames

2012-03-30, 12:39 AM

....That's just a bad mixture with regards to playing the game, especially for the people playing with you. :smalleek:

It might actually work for the group, and felt right for the type of character. The build, anyway, not the mountain of sueish traits she's potentially infested with.

So far, no one else has objected, and the roleplaying's been decent OOC and IC.

Infact, if anything, I've had more negative reaction to the Crusader//Bard than the Healer. Although to be fair, the Healer doesn't have a Rival NPC as the current Big Bad. Still, Bardic Knack + Jack of All Trades makes him pretty darn good at lots of things, if his spells can't compensate, and he kicks butt with his Maneuvers...

Ravens_cry

2012-03-30, 03:22 AM

Well, best of luck to you. If you and the party can make it work, than good on you all. :smallsmile:

Nerd-o-rama

2012-03-30, 09:06 AM

The Charismancer Sue I mentioned playing in a game with also had Vow of Nonviolence and, I think, Peace at some point or another. It wasn't disruptive in this case because, as mentioned, it was a sandbox game. If anyone wanted to righteously beat something up, they adventured without her. Or helped her out with the undead or something, I forget if they count for VoPeace.

Oh, and regarding the gestalt thing, I was mostly joking. I just won't play in a gestalt game; if anyone else does that's their business. (I would count it as a special trait for Sue-scoring purposes unless everything in the setting has it, but then again, that Sue-scoring test is kind of completely pointless because it doesn't take context into account. The version for fanfic OCs is much more useful than the one for original characters in original stories.)

Whammydill

2012-03-30, 09:12 AM

She'd have to be a half-elf with the best qualities of both parents, weird hair color.

She'd also wear a shirt that says "I played a Mary Sue and all I got was the Jumping Cold Robbies!"

INoKnowNames

2012-03-30, 04:56 PM

Well, best of luck to you. If you and the party can make it work, than good on you all. :smallsmile:

Thanks for the vote of confidence, although it doesn't seem like it's as bad as people make it out to be.

The Charismancer Sue I mentioned playing in a game with also had Vow of Nonviolence and, I think, Peace at some point or another. It wasn't disruptive in this case because, as mentioned, it was a sandbox game. If anyone wanted to righteously beat something up, they adventured without her. Or helped her out with the undead or something, I forget if they count for VoPeace.

She sounds quite a bit like the Healer I've got going on, although yeah, slaying Undead is perfectly fine. Undead and Constructs, actually.

Oh, and regarding the gestalt thing, I was mostly joking. I just won't play in a gestalt game; if anyone else does that's their business. (I would count it as a special trait for Sue-scoring purposes unless everything in the setting has it, but then again, that Sue-scoring test is kind of completely pointless because it doesn't take context into account. The version for fanfic OCs is much more useful than the one for original characters in original stories.)

Tests like that are fun, even if they are pointless.

She'd have to be a half-elf with the best qualities of both parents, weird hair color.

She'd also wear a shirt that says "I played a Mary Sue and all I got was the Jumping Cold Robbies!"

A Half-Elf with a Bonus Feat, Extra Skill Points, and Elf Racial Traits? Not bad...

Jumping Cold Robbies?

Zale

2012-03-30, 06:59 PM

Otherwise, we could use this to determine what circle of Hell we belong in. (http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv) On a random note, I just took it, and landed Purgatory. Holy Crap!

Apparently, I'm going to the Sixth Level of Hell - The City of Dis

For Heretics.

:smallsmile:

Ravens_cry

2012-03-30, 07:10 PM

Apparently, I'm going to the Sixth Level of Hell - The City of Dis

For Heretics.

:smallsmile:
I got Second Level. :smalltongue:
Sweet, hanging in the breeze with Cleopatra and Helen of Troy, row!:smallbiggrin:

INoKnowNames

2012-03-30, 07:30 PM

Apparently, I'm going to the Sixth Level of Hell - The City of Dis

For Heretics.

:smallsmile:

Heh. The last time I took that test, I was such a bad person back then, I maxed 5th, 7th, and 9th. :smallamused:

I got Second Level. :smalltongue:
Sweet, hanging in the breeze with Cleopatra and Helen of Troy, row!:smallbiggrin:

I was under a bit of a different interpretation of being molested by wind... :smalleek:

Calanon

2012-03-30, 08:18 PM

Apparently, I'm going to the Sixth Level of Hell - The City of Dis

For Heretics.

:smallsmile:

Eighth Level of Hell - The Malebolge... Hmm... Almost got the 9th ring... So close!

The Mentalist

2012-03-30, 08:32 PM

Maly Suano
CR 71, according to the templates

Formerly human, or rather its ancestors, they were bred with outsiders, elementals, dragons, giants, fey, aberrations and other humanoids. From this extensive breeding process, Maly Suano was born. As beautiful as a divine being, Maly Suano’s appears as an androgynous youth with small green crystal scales on its cheeks, shoulders, elbows and knees. Pristine white feathered wings sprout from its shoulders and long black hair falls down its back. Its eyes have glowing blue cornea and pupils and its irises glow red. The creature glistens in the sun, but the light reveals a look on its face that shows the pain it holds deep inside, hidden from others in secret.

Medium Giant (human, reptilian, shapechanger)
Commoner 1/Lycanthrope 43
Hit Dice 1d4+14 plus 43d8+1270 (1480 hp)
Initiative +8
Speed 40 ft, fly 80 ft (good)
Armour Class 61 (+4 Dex, +47 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 57
Base Attack Bonus/Grapple +32/+36
Attack Bite +53 melee (1d6+21)
Full Attack Bite +53 melee (1d6+21) and gore +48 melee (1d6+21) and 2 claws +37 melee (1d6+10) and 2 tentacles +37 melee (1d4+10)
Space/Reach 10 ft/10 ft
Special Attacks awesome beauty, breath weapon, change shape, rend (2d6+33), spell-like abilities
Special Qualities blindsight 60 ft, DR 10/magic, DR 5/piercing, DR 10/silver, darkvision 60 ft, fast healing 5, immunity to acid, cold, confusion/insanity, disease, electricity, enchantments, energy drain, fire, poison, sleep and sonic, low-light vision, scent, SR 54, water breathing
Saves Fort +38, Ref +30, Will +29
Abilities Str 52, Dex 24, Con 38, Int 14, Wis 24, Cha 22
Skills Appraise +3, Balance +11, Bluff +8, Climb+22, Disguise +55, Hide +13, Jump +27, Listen +63, Move Silently +10, Perform (sing) +55, Search +7, Sleight of Hand +4, Spot +63
Feats (15+B) Aberration Blood (tail) [33], Alertness (B), Blind-Fight [21], Combat Reflexes [42], Dodge [6], Endurance [1], Flyby Attack [12], Enlarge Breath [30], Improved Flyby Attack [15], Improved Initiative (B), Inhuman Reach [36], Mage Slayer [18], Mobility [9], Pierce Magical Concealment [21], Maximize Breath [24], Heighten Breath [27], Stand Still [39], Steadfast Determination [3], Track (B)
Flaws Too Perfect (grants no feats because Maly Suano doesn’t need any)
Treasure Lots of jewelry made from platinum, gold, silver, bronze, copper, brass, adamantine and mithral, set with emeralds, rubies, sapphires, diamonds, topazes and crystals in every colour, totalling 28,340,000 gp in worth

Ability Drain (Su): Maly Suano’s bite can drain 1d4 points of Constitution if the victim fails a Fortitude save (DC 46). Maly Suano can use this ability three times per day.

Alternate Forms (Su): Maly Suano may take the form of any Humanoid creature, as if using an alter self spell cast by a 9th-level sorcerer, except it allows Maly Suano to take only Humanoid forms instead of Giant forms. Maly Suano may do this at will as a standard action.

Awesome Beauty (Su): This ability affects all humanoids within 30 ft of Maly Suano. Those who look directly at it must succeed on a Will save (DC 16) or be shaken for 1 minute. A creature that remains in range and continues to look at Maly Suano must continue to make saving throws against this ability every round. A successful saving throw while already shaken does not free the creature from the effect of the initial failed save. A failed save throw while shaken resets the duration of the shaken condition. Maly Suano can suppress or resume this ability as a free action. This is a mind-affecting fear effect.

Blood Dependency (Ex): If Maly Suano does not use its blood drain special attack against at least one living foe each day, it must make a DC 15 Fortitude save or become fatigued. Each day after the first that it does not drink blood directly from a living creature, the DC increases by 1 until it fails the save and becomes fatigued. After that, it must make a DC 20 Fortitude save each week (with the DC increasing by 1 each week thereafter) that it does not use its blood drain or become exhausted.
The fatigue or exhaustion caused by blood dependency cannot be eliminated by rest (though magic can offset the condition until Maly Suano fails another save). Using its blood drain ability eliminates Maly Suano’s fatigue immediately, or reduces exhaustion to fatigue.

Blood Drain (Ex): As a half-vampire, Maly Suano can suck blood from a living victim with its fangs by making a successful grapple check. If it pins the foe, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution drain each round the pin is maintained. It can’t drain more points of Contitution in a single hour than its Constitution score. When a half-vampire drains a victim’s Constitution, it gains 5 temporary hit points, no matter how many points it drains. Temporary hit points gained in this way last for up to 1 hour.

Breath Weapon (Su): Maly Suano’s breath weapon is a 30 ft line of prismatic light that deals 6d8 points of acid damage, 6d8 points of cold damage, 6d8 points of electricity damage, 6d10 points of fire damage, 6d8 points of force damage and 6d8 points of sonic damage. A successful Reflex save (DC 46) reduces damage by half. Creatures who fail their Reflex save are also blinded for 1d4 rounds. Creatures caught in the line must also succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 46) and a Will save (DC 46). Those who fail the Fortitude save gain 1 negative level and are deafened for 1d4 rounds. Those who fail the Will save are panicked for 1d4 rounds. If directed at a body of water, this breath weapon evaporates 1 cubic foot of water per point of damage dealt. Maly Suano can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage with its breath weapon. It can use its breath weapon once every 1d4 rounds.

Cause Rain (Su): Maly Suano can breathe storm clouds three times per day, cuasing rain. The rain lasts for 2d4 hours and extends in a 2-mile radius centered on Maly Suano.

Change Shape (Su): As a standard action, Maly Suano can change into a pseudonatural half-beast form, tentacle and hairy and all tooth and claw, but yet still divinely beautiful and strong.
Medium Hybrid: Str +46, Dex +34, Con +34, +28 natural armor, 50 ft, climb 20 ft, swim 30 ft, fly 40 ft (good), bite secondary attack (1d6+Str)
Maly Suano cannot be flanked in its Hybrid Form, and it’s not subject to critical hits. Material Plane creatures take a -1 morale penalty on attack rolls against Maly Suano in this form
Bite +76 melee (1d6+44), 2 claws +49 melee (1d4+22), 4 tentacles +49 melee (1d4+22)
Blindsense (Ex): A dire bat uses echolocation to pinpoint creatures within 40 feet and so does Maly Suano in its Hybrid Form. Opponents still have total concealment against it unless it can actually see them.
Disease (Ex): Filth fever—bite, Fortitude DC 63, incubation period 1d3 days, damage 1d3 Dex and 1d3 Con. The save DC is Constitution-based. Maly Suano’s bite attack applies the filth fever disease while in its Hybrid Form.
Ferocity (Ex): A boar is such a tenacious combatant that it continues to fight without penalty even while disabled or dying, and so does Maly Suano in its Hybrid Form.
Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, Maly Suano must hit with a bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake.
Hold Breath (Ex): Maly Suano can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 4 x its Constitution score before it risks drowning.
Keen Scent (Ex): Maly Suano can notice creatures by scent in a 180-foot radius and can detect blood in the water at a range of up to 1 mile.
Pounce (Ex): If Maly Suano charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.
Rake (Ex): Attack bonus +49 melee, damage 1d6+22.
Trip (Ex): If Maly Suano hits with a bite attack, it can attempt to trip the opponent (+44 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip Maly Suano.

Minotaur Cunning (Ex): Maly Suano has a +4 bonus on Intelligence checks to escape maze spells and the ability to determine which direction is north automatically.

Roar (Ex): Maly Suano can roar three times per day, creating a sound resembling metal scraping against stone. All creatures within 60 ft are automatically deafened for 1 round (no save).

Sound Imitation (Ex): Maly Suano can imitate any voice or sound it has heard. Will save DC 16 to detect the ruse.

Spell-like abilities: DCs are Charisma-based (10 + spell level + 6).
At will--charm person, disguise self, empathy.
5/day--plane shift.
3/day--blink, blur, darkness, detect law, ethereal jaunt, holy aura, poison, protection from evil, protection from law, unholy aura.
2/day--horrid wilting, obscuring mist.
1/day--acid fog, aid, air walk, blasphemy, bless, burning hands, chain lightning, charm (mass), charm monster (mass), cone of cold, confusion, contagion, control water, control weather, control winds, cure serious wounds, desecrate, destruction, detect evil, dispel evil, dominate person, earthquake, elemental swarm*, enlarge person, enthrall, eyebite, faerie fire, fire shield, fire seeds, firestorm, flaming sphere, fog cloud, gaseous form, geas/quest, geas (lesser), glitterdust, hallow, hold monster, holy smite, holy word, ice storm, implosion, incendiary cloud, insanity, invisibility, invisibility (greater), invisibility (mass), iron body, magic stone, neutralize poison, Otto’s irresistible dance, produce flame, reduce person, remove disease, resurrection, scintillating pattern, sleep, speak with animals, soften earth and stone, spike stones, stinking cloud, stone shape, stoneskin, suggestion, suggestion (mass), summon monster IX**, Tasha’s hideous laughter, telekinesis, touch of idiocy, unhallow, unholy blight, wall of fire, wall of stone, water breathing, whirlwind, wind wall.

*Elemental Swarm can be used 1/day for each of the four elemental types.
**Summon Monster IX can be used 1/day to summon only celestials, 1/day to summon only fiends and 1/day to summon only pseudonatural animals or vermin. Select any celestial or fiendish animal or vermin that could be summoned by summon monster IX, but apply the pseudonatural template to the creature in place of the celestial or fiendish template.

Water Fire (Su): Six times per day, Maly Suano can surround itself in an aura of ghostly, flickering, multi-coloured flames while touching or submerged in water. The flames cause damage to any creature touching Maly Suano. Any creature that successfully hits Maly Suano with a natural weapon or a melee weapon causes the attacker to take 1d6 points of fire damage. This ability lasts for 1 minute or until it comes in contact with normal or magical fire. If the water fire is dispelled by fire, Maly Suano cannot activate this ability again for 2d6 minutes.

Barknotes:
For Maly Suano’s Half-Doppelganger part I made it so Maly Suano could simply access all Humanoid forms instead of just three, as if applying the Half-Doppelganger template several times, but not allowing the Wisdom bonus to stack with itself each time.

For the Half-Dragon parts I applied a special rule, being that I would not allow the ability score bonuses and such to stack from multiple Half-Dragon templates, otherwise Maly Suano would have over 500 Strength, over 200 Constitution and over 100 Intelligence, Charisma and natural armor. Furthermore, I sort of merged all the breath weapons together, adding up their damage (but making energy damage of the same type overlap) and area (hence a 30 ft line) and allowing Maly Suano to use it at will every 1d4 rounds. This for the sake of making it easy for me mostly, otherwise Maly Suano would have 32 different breath weapons! Merging the breath weapons might create a bit of an overkill attack, but I figure that that makes up for the much lower ability scores and natural armor, plus creating a much more elegant outcome. For this reason, I also had any Half-Dragon templates beyond the first apply only a +1 CR modifier.

For the Half-Fey part, I simply allowed Maly Suano to have the “X or Y 1/day” spell-like abilities as “X and Y 1/day”. Kind of like applying the Half-Fey template twice, except in limited fashion. The fey blood is strong in this one. Besides, some of the SLAs refer to spells that were removed from the 3.5 update.

For the Half-Janni part, I simply counted its Planar Jaunt ability to be the same as Planeshift, even though it’s normally limited to a handful of planes. It doesn’t really matter much when you can already shift to any plane a bunch of times per day, so one can just fluff it as the abilities synergizing and upgrading Planar Jaunt to Planeshift.

I have left out some of the Mongrelfolk abilities, because they are not relevant (no ranks in UMD, no longer Humanoid type, etc).

For the spell-like abilities, I simply did not feel like looking up all the spell levels to calculate the DCs for the spells that have them. :P

I know that this was all meant as a joke but with different fluff this could actually be a very interesting character.

Ravens_cry

2012-03-30, 09:13 PM

I was under a bit of a different interpretation of being molested by wind... :smalleek:
Nothing is perfect.:smalltongue:
Molested, especially back then, didn't just have a sexual connotation.

INoKnowNames

2012-03-30, 09:16 PM

Nothing is perfect.:smalltongue:
Molested, especially back then, didn't just have a sexual connotation.

True, but Molestation in the Lust level of Hell? Probably isn't as enjoyable as one might try to assume.

Eighth Level of Hell - The Malebolge... Hmm... Almost got the 9th ring... So close!

Unless you're a Masochist, I'm pretty sure the score is by Golf Standards - the Lower the Better.

Hiro Protagonest

2012-03-30, 09:28 PM

I got stuck in Dis, since I don't believe in God (I believe there is some sort of divine being, but it's just as likely to be the Eberron pantheon as it is the Christian God). Man, God sure is stingy about who he lets into Heaven in the old faith. Of course, Limbo is also a pretty good place, it's just that you constantly get hit over the head with the fact that you could be somewhere better.

Talakeal

2012-03-30, 09:48 PM

Coidzor

2012-03-30, 09:50 PM

There aren't nearly enough greed-based questions for proper devotees of Tiamat... adventurers.

INoKnowNames

2012-03-30, 09:51 PM

Oh crap, I just realised we aren't supposed to bring religion into the board. :smalleek:

Hiro Protagonest

2012-03-30, 09:54 PM

Don't want to bring religion onto this board, so I can't really say more, but Dante is mostly based off of medieval folklore and greek mytghology rather than the Bible, and his depiction of Hell has very little scriptural support.

Gluttony myself btw. I imagine lot's of my fellow fat-beards will end up there if that test is correct.

Yeah, I was a little worried when I made that post, especially since I haven't been sure where the line is before... I'll probably decide to edit it.

I didn't really think Greek Mythology had a lot to do with it. There were some Greek underworld monsters, though.

Talakeal

2012-03-30, 09:56 PM

Yeah, I was a little worried when I made that post, especially since I haven't been sure where the line is before... I'll probably decide to edit it.

I didn't really think Greek Mythology had a lot to do with it. There were some Greek underworld monsters, though.

The whole notion of people being punished forever in the afterlife in a manner that reflects their crimes in life is a Greek concept.

Tvtyrant

2012-03-30, 09:58 PM

A Silver Great Wyrm dragon who shifts into a silver haired and purple eyed elf maid, who is a captain on a Spelljammer ship for the elvish starfleet.

Or a vampire shadowcrafter Gnome who can alter reality at will.

Hiro Protagonest

2012-03-30, 10:05 PM

The whole notion of people being punished forever in the afterlife in a manner that reflects their crimes in life is a Greek concept.

Really? I just thought all punishment for sins was eternal, except for purgatory. Although the Norse do have the "nothing is eternal" thing.

And I edited my post, you mind editing the quote?

Ravens_cry

2012-03-30, 10:08 PM

True, but Molestation in the Lust level of Hell? Probably isn't as enjoyable as one might try to assume.

I honestly can not figure out how that is supposed to even work by your interpretation.
Besides, one of my goals in life is to visit a hurricane; I love high winds.
Yes, I am insane.:smallbiggrin:

Calanon

2012-03-30, 10:28 PM

I believe there is some sort of divine being, but it's just as likely to be the Eberron pantheon as it is the Christian God

Hmmm... I can... oddly relate to this :smallconfused:

EDIT: Anywho! If i were Mary Sue, I'd probably kill myself to save my party the time planning for it... :smalltongue:

Morithias

2012-03-31, 12:47 AM

Most things created by fans are. Otherwise, we could use this to determine what circle of Hell we belong in. (http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv) On a random note, I just took it, and landed Purgatory. Holy Crap!

Eighth level of hell - The Malebolge.

Wait...I thought Malebolge was the sixth level of hell...Glasya's level, and CANIA was the eighth level. *goes to check the codex 2*

Nerd-o-rama

2012-03-31, 06:31 AM

The D&D Nine Hells are based on Dante about as much as Dante is based on, say, Greek mythology.

Trying desperately not to contribute to the real world religion discussion here.

Whammydill

2012-03-31, 08:25 AM

A Half-Elf with a Bonus Feat, Extra Skill Points, and Elf Racial Traits? Not bad...

Jumping Cold Robbies?

Jumping Cold Robbies was the affliction the crew came down with in the Mary Sue story.

Whammydill

2012-03-31, 08:27 AM

Jumping Cold Robbies was the affliction the crew came down with in the Mary Sue story.

Edit: Mary Sue less so, of course.

Ravens_cry

2012-03-31, 08:39 AM

I thought it was Pedal Transient Paraesthesia.:smallbiggrin:
(Different Mary Sue, I know)

Nerd-o-rama

2012-03-31, 01:03 PM

Edit: Mary Sue less so, of course.

The edit button is right next to the quote button, you know.

Hiro Protagonest

2012-03-31, 03:49 PM

The edit button is right next to the quote button, you know.

Yeah, I think he clicked the wrong one and didn't bother to look at the quote tags.

As for a Mary Sue's appearance, I think she should have a slight hourglass figure with a D cup. She'd be 5'10, and have emerald green eyes, except to some people they appear blue, and they're gold on Sundays. She'd have flaming red hair, except it looks brown from certain angles, an when she's in direct sunlight on days where the sun is particularly bright it looks blonde, and when she wears dark colors it looks black.