Bruiser Brainstorming (formerly a Grappling Class?)

[Daverin]

Looking through a couple of searches on the forums, I feel there is no real attempt to work on a class that focuses on grappling and wrestling style techniques. Of course, as with any concept, it is something that can be done with existing classes. Still, I always like it when a concept gets special focus through a class. So, two questions.

1) Now, I hold that, if it fits for your concept, anything can make sense as a base class. That said, I acknowledge that the more specific the focus of a class, the more sense it makes to be prestige. Is a grappler feasible as a base class, or would it be better to use a prestige, and if so, which classes would be the preferred candidates for entry?

2) What are some abilities that a grappling focused class would need to be viable/effective?

This is more just of a brainstorming thread atm, but I am thinking of trying to take a stab at the concept. Also, I do know that a few homebrewed disciplines have grappling included to some degree, so that would be something I would consider using.

EDIT: Now want to expand this to full blown brawler that is the epitome of "Charles Atlas Superpowers." They still will have grappling as a major route for those who want it. Also, as stated below, I am looking for, in the best case scenario, a tier 3 that has the versatility of tier 1, but without the gamebreaking, if at all possible. Currently, my working class name is simply "Bruiser".

[Grinner]

There's a prestige class in Complete Warrior worth looking at for inspiration. I think it's the Reaping Mauler.

[Hyudra]

The main hurdles are pretty big ones:

1) Flavorwise, it's hard to justify what's ostensibly going to be a medium sized character grappling large, huge and colossal enemies, which is what can happen at mid-high levels.

2) Mechanically, you've got huge grapple modifiers on the part of those large, huge and colossal enemies that you're going to have to deal with and get around.

[zlefin]

IIRC there's a grappling based alternate class in pathfinder; i forget whether its' for fighter or monk; monk I think.
One of the MOST important mechanical abilities a grappler class needs is the ability to NEGATE freedom of movement spell/effects.

found the PF monk archetype:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/tetori

[Daverin]

The main hurdles are pretty big ones:

1) Flavorwise, it's hard to justify what's ostensibly going to be a medium sized character grappling large, huge and colossal enemies, which is what can happen at mid-high levels.

2) Mechanically, you've got huge grapple modifiers on the part of those large, huge and colossal enemies that you're going to have to deal with and get around.

1) Yeah, I imagine that one could be hard to do. I honestly would not feel terrible just pulling the "extraordinary" card and calling it a day. I don't know, maybe mention something about calling on the spirit of giants, titans, and hecatonchieres? Still, I also kind of like that image; imagining my character just pinning a dragon is kind of hilarious, in a good way. :smallbiggrin:

2) Definitely one of the most obvious problems to overcome. Would it be too lazy just to negate size bonuses against the grappler?


IIRC there's a grappling based alternate class in pathfinder; i forget whether its' for fighter or monk; monk I think.
One of the MOST important mechanical abilities a grappler class needs is the ability to NEGATE freedom of movement spell/effects.

Hey thanks for the link! And negating freedom of movement style effects definitely is a good idea.

Also, I'm not sure, but I feel a grappler should be able to perform a wide range of debilitating effects, like breaking a back or crushing an arm sort of deal. So things like momentary paralysis, reduction of action economy, and special debuffs dealing with disabled limbs. Thoughts?

[Steward]

The grapple mechanic itself is fairly unpopular, so a lot of people tend to shun it. I definitely agree thought that a prestige class around it would need to be able to negate freedom of movement -- which every third monster has for some reason -- and some way of wrestling with creatures significantly larger than themselves. Another good idea I think would be a way to use tentacles or super-stretching arms or something like that to grapple multiple enemies at once at higher levels.


Also, I'm not sure, but I feel a grappler should be able to perform a wide range of debilitating effects, like breaking a back or crushing an arm sort of deal. So things like momentary paralysis, reduction of action economy, and special debuffs dealing with disabled limbs. Thoughts?

Definitely! And to add to this, maybe a way to pick foes up and throw them.

[Daverin]

I definitely was thinking of how to make grappling able to AoE; only thing is I want to avoid getting "too" weird, like stretchy arms, unless I cannot think of anything else.

I think I am going to find the hulking hurler and see what I can take that isn't broken for throwing rules. Need ammo? Pick up a kobold. :smalltongue:

I suppose, somehow, I should make a grappling class make grappling itself more simplified.

[Spiryt]

The main hurdles are pretty big ones:

1) Flavorwise, it's hard to justify what's ostensibly going to be a medium sized character grappling large, huge and colossal enemies, which is what can happen at mid-high levels.


Well, flavorwise it's also hard to justify medium sized character smacking huge and colossal enemies with axe, or even fists (aside from the fact that monk doesn't work well in general), inevitably in their knees regions, trying to do anything to them, or even trying to get close enough...

Since D&D anyway leaves 'reality' behind at mid-high levels, it's not that much of a problem.

Problem is that grappling indeed suffers from size differences way more than most of other stuff....

And that melee/'mundane' classes tend to be sadly 'one trick' to do much, while sensibly, grappling character should be able to do the rest of fighting pretty well, and vice versa...

[Daverin]

True. Honestly, I am quite willing to extend it to a sort of "strongman" class in general, with grappling, throwing things, and maybe a little bit of environmental destruction, which hopefully will allow me to give them multiple tricks. As far as flavor goes, I am likely thinking of creating some link between their class and the hecatonchires, whose mythical strength and many arms sound great for grappling/pugilism/throwing symbolism. Call it hecator or something cheesy like that. :smalltongue:

[Steward]

If you need a name, you can always call it something dumb like 'Scion of Hecatoncheires'.

(Though honestly, 'Wrestler' would probably work if you need a generic name that doesn't require.)

[playswithfire]

Also, I'm not sure, but I feel a grappler should be able to perform a wide range of debilitating effects, like breaking a back or crushing an arm sort of deal. So things like momentary paralysis, reduction of action economy, and special debuffs dealing with disabled limbs. Thoughts?

I don't know if it's the direction wou want to go in, but in the Tome of Tactics project linked in my signature, there's a martial disciple called Giant's Grib the focuses on grappling and has several lock maneuvers, culminating in snapping an opponent's neck. There are also a couple feats, one of which gives WIS to grapple checks and a prestige class that focuses on unarmed combat, specifically grappling, tripping, and disarming.

[Daverin]

Yeah, Erestler works just because popular image from pro wrestling leaves us with much more than just grappling. And, honestly, I am sure in a fantasy world, there is a way to perform pro wrestling moves, even the flashy impractical ones, and make it work. :smalltongue:

So, things to consider:

- Make grappling larger opponents easier

- Prevent freedom of movement

- Debuffs, usually revolving around disabling the target

- Throwing opponents and objects in general

- Some way to allow multi-grappling

Other things:

- Integrate straight-up pugilism or some heavy-handed unarmed combat as well, for when you just need to punch it in the face more than anything

- Likely involve some bonuses to charging. You are the ultimate in sticking to a target, you need to get to them first. Also includes ways to escape various momvement stoppers.

- The banishing flat. For those who don't know, it is a reference to Zangief from Street Fighter, where he basically backhands, and he is able to negate projectiles. So if a fireball is coming your way, you smack it away. Yes, this is for purely blatant shout-out and cool factor reasons. :smalltongue:

- Superior carrying and strength application for size and actual ability.

- A little bit of environmental destruction. Punch small craters that suck to walk through, or cause little fissures that can rock opponents around.

- General toughness. Dude is assumed to be an armorless wrestling strongman who just goes straight for an opponent. He darn well better be able to last!

Other thoughts? Any thoughts on the above?

[Steward]

- A little bit of environmental destruction. Punch small craters that suck to walk through, or cause little fissures that can rock opponents around.

Definitely! I can totally see the big strong character stomping the ground to create a fissure. I've always felt like melee characters should have a small amount of battlefield control abilities. Nothing like the reality-rewriting power of a wizard or a cleric, but some way to manipulate the field of combat in a small way to throw opponents off guard.

I'm also a huge fan of speed and movement bonuses. It's hard to make an effective tank if you're too slow to catch up with anyone.

The 'banishing flat' idea is pretty awesome. At its most basic, you could just just modify the Deflect Arrows (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Deflect_Arrows) feat, but you could easily scale it up so that, at higher levels, boulders can bounce off his chest and he can literally catch or deflect fireballs and scorching rays.

[Doorhandle]

Definitely! And to add to this, maybe a way to pick foes up and throw them.

Suplexes. Let the class suplex people, and let it do bonus damage to extra large and heavy foes, and let it be an area attack so he can suplex the dragon into a giant, and kill them BOTH (poteintally.)

Throwing things in genreal would not be a bad mechanic for the class. I reckon he should be able to Jump Good (Tm), at least as well as a monk.

Also, I think he should be able to simitainously grappel and bull-rush on a charge. FLYING TACKLE!


...You can tell I'm really enthused with this idea can't you? Should the class have full B.A.B, or just somthing that approiximates full B.A.B when using combat manuvers? Also, Pathfinder or normal 3.5?

[Daverin]

I'm more experienced with standard 3.5, so that is my aim. As for BAB... I honestly don't like it when an explicit frontliner does not have full BAB, and this guy'll need as much help as he can get for what he does.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Ah, yeah. The Armstrong Class (http://www.total-manga.com/images/Screenshot/FR-10-19954-B/alex-louis-armstrong.png). Love it.


- The banishing flat. For those who don't know, it is a reference to Zangief from Street Fighter, where he basically backhands, and he is able to negate projectiles. So if a fireball is coming your way, you smack it away. Yes, this is for purely blatant shout-out and cool factor reasons. :smalltongue:

Why smack it away? Grapple that fireball! Grapple offensive spells and hurl them back in your foes' faces.

[Daverin]

I love that. I think it'll be a progression; begin with swat, learn to redirect.

PILEDRIVE DAT FIREBALL!!!

[drew2u]

It's been a while but I kicked butt as a gnome monk that could grapple his opponents pretty well (insert homebrew feats that allow small-and-smaller-sized characters to grapple as one category size larger)

I can't remember at what level we were when I successfully grappled one of our other party members polymorphed as a white dragon. It was kinda awesome.

[Terazul]

Strawberryman made a Grappler class awhile ago as part of a PrC project for classes from Dungeon Fighter Online. It's in here, down at the bottom of the post. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8355270&postcount=2)

Might be what you're looking for?

[Sv3nman]

I personally think that this might be easiest treated as an edited version of monk. Basically state that starting a grapple only counts as an attack action in normal circumstances, thus allowing you to grab, pin, pummel, and throw all in the same round. Also, you could use the baseline unarmed strike damage for damage done by grappling and slamming...you'd probably have to sacrifice something, though, to keep this balanced. Maybe only allow flurry when you're attempting grapple.

I'm not sure what throwing damage should be for chucking opponents into each other--on the one hand you get to hit two opponents at once, on the other it requires releasing your grapple. Probably have it be two attack progressions below, or have it only available through a higher-level feat...or meh.

I'm also liking the AoE idea above--perhaps have that be something designated for larger opponents, that you're allowed to "slam" it into it's allies. Sure, you might get a size penalty for trying to fling a Large dragon by it's tail, but when you can go on to hit it and every enemy in a 4-space area for full unarmed damage for your level, three times or more, it's worth it.

I'd also suggest using the Pathfinder size bonuses, since it sounds like you're using D&D--basically, it's the same as attack modifiers, but added instead of subtracted. You could have it be a feature for this class, along with some higher-level abilities that negate magical defenses against this sort of thing. That way, we can maintain our visions of halflings suplexing dragons.

It's not complete by a fair bit, but bastardized with some of the stuff from the grappler class posted above, it just might work...

[zegram 33]

how about saying something like the wrestler is treated as the same size category as the opponent he's grappling up to X size (increases with levels so you cant shoulderlock colosal enemies from the off, and makes strength the deciding factor)
then maybe add different grapple attack options after you win the check, say rather than attacking you can make ANOTHER grapple check (maybe at a penalty, or a penalty minus however much you won the first check by?) and use a variety of special grapple moves that come along as you increase in level.

off the top of my head:leglock that slows movement speed, armlock that gives a penalty to attack power for a bit, headlock reduces there to hit bonuses, suplex deals damage based on there size?

then maybe there would be another tier of unique grapple abilities, that could only be attempted the turn after the first tier, ie arm break, leg break, neck break (temporary paralysis?), maybe some kind of spinny throw leading off from the suplex that does damage to all enemies in a radius around you based on his size modifier, then throws him at a point within a certain radius and uses fall damage to calculate how much damage he does as if hed fallen that far onto the target?

bit wordy but pretty cool.
I appreciate that these secondary tier abilities would be a)very powerful and b)a bit "video gamey" in the combo style progression

for a) they should be pretty good since you need about 4 grapple checks to trigger them, for b).....point

of course, you might not be a fan of the idea of sequential attacks, or really any of this, but i thought id put it out there and see what you thought.

[Daverin]

... Actually? I am loving turning grappling into an attack action series. I actually like the concept itself (create an attack!), and I think applying it to grappling is actually thematically appropriate. Of course, that means I would have to REALLY make new moves, to give plenty of variety.

That said, good ideas all around. As far as an edited monk... hmm, I think I will look to the monk for guidance, but whether or not it comes off as one is up in the air.

Also, I definitely intend to explore grappled target as makeshift weapon. Can anyone say dragon flail? :smallamused:

[zegram 33]

glad you like it
and yeh, im not gonna lie, my thought when imagining it was piledrivering a dragon then spinning it through a couple of tree's, but it would be quite handy against multiple enemies with just an orc or whatever too.
I love the idea of this class, and it came to me that if your hurting for possibilities you could take some ideas from he fallout series and how enemies react when you cripple limbs (prevents all charging and halves movement speed for legs say) or just wing it and make something like (for every move action, the target must make a fortitude check or fall prone)

my only concern is that against flying enemies your pretty knacked, and same for stuff like blobs and things with a difficult to grapple shape. the only thought i had was maybe remove the penalty for improvised weapons for him? so you can grab a chair or lump or rock and just hoof it at someone?
i dunno

really like the prebuild you have going on here, and just realised that its entirely possibly at some point to get a T-rex in a chokehold, then break its neck, at which point reality might just break down from the awesome

[Sv3nman]

Oooh. That's a VERY cool idea you have with the idea of a grapple attack sequence--basically, I think you could take inspiration from quite a few different jiujitsu moves for effects. Real-world moves would break limbs, choke the target, and also allow attacking from the back(higher levels only, and probably not from a pin).

The problem I do see with that is that the longer you make the attack sequence, the more powerful the result has to be to justify it--remember, an attack like Phantasmal Killer only gives the target two failed saves before they abruptly die.

I'm thinking, you'd make an attack from a pin (or just grapple for low-tier moves). Target makes Fortitude save or suffers really unpleasant effect(Equal to 1/2 level+WIS modifier). A sample list:

Heel Hook(Pin only): Target makes Fortitude save or cannot stand from prone.

Armbar(Pin only): One of the target's arms is disabled. Anything held in the arm is dropped. In addition, targets with two or fewer arms take a -2 dodge penalty to AC.

Arterial Choke(Pin only): Target makes Fortitude save, or is put to sleep for 1d6+1 rounds.

Tracheal(air) choke: Target makes Fortitude save or takes 1d6 nonlethal damage per level of the grappler.

Neck Snap(Pin only): Target makes Fortitude save or is paralyzed permanently. Must be at least ??? level to use.

As if this all wasn't long enough, there should also be special abilities that allow the grappler to take control of a grapple directly for a pin (like the real world mount sweep), just to properly establish grappling as THEIR domain uniquely.

As for flying enemies, yeah, they're about as hosed as a normal monk would be. Best hope is either go into a series of high jumps, or just chuck something/someone at it. I suppose you could give them a "throw anything" ability similar to the monk's high jump ability...that might make up the difference, if you can chuck boulders at whatever damn dragon is hovering out of your reach.

[Daverin]

So, thinking on it, I might just expand this to a more general "brawler" class; they'd use attack actions as resources, and, to steal an idea I thought was incredible from Reign of Chaos (once I get his permission, that is) the basic cost will be attack bonus. I think they will be "categories" such as striking, wrestling/grappling, throwing, and maybe some others. This'll basically be the whole nine yards Charles Atlas Superpower class, and it will definitely include some things that are outright extraordinary. An example idea I now have is to make it that, as they progress, their motion is so smooth and fast that they begin to blur as they act, eventually leaving behind false images and being able to seem to multiply as they attack, allowing great tactical and defensive prowess.

As far as aerial enemies, I fully intend to supply enough jumping and throwing options to allow them to tackle the situation. I also am likely to give them the ability to taunt in a couple of ways (and maybe just shout abilities in general), and one of those could include goading fliers to get on the ground.

I suppose I should mention tier goals, since this probably sounds like quite a few options: simply put, I want to try to get tier 3 or above; rather, I want it to be balanced, like tier 3, but with the potential versatility of tier 1 (so t1 without the gamebreaking, if at all possible.) How I will extend this to non-combat situations... well, I'm working on that one. :smallwink:

[Hyudra]

I tried to write up something like this some time ago, but got bogged down in details/abilities.

The overall concept I went with was:
Gets advantages for throwing himself into the thick of a melee, rather than disadvantages.
Gets a list of 'strikes' that he can apply. Might need to rename. Strikes apply effects. They're usable all day, but the idea would be for these strikes to each offer something that either sets up a more devastating hit or allows the brawler to use the battlefield to his advantage. Encouraging rather than enforcing an arbitrary limit on uses (a la ToB).
All strikes can be used unarmed, but each strike also allows for use with specific weapons or weapon types.
The brawler can use multiple strikes as part of a full attack, but each attack has to use a strike of a lower level than the attack that proceeded it.
Flavorwise, brawlers are individuals, often on the fringes of an urban society (ie. the slums and back alleys of human capitol city), or members of a semicivilized savage society (orc, ogre), who have evolved into toughened, merciless warriors more through happenstance and necessity than through training and dedication.

Strike concepts:
Slice - Using the edge of the brawler's gauntlet, a concealed knife or piece of glass the brawler throws away afterward, the brawler causes the opponent to bleed every round until they use a full round action (licking wound, cinching armor/clothing tight, etc) or a successful standard heal check to staunch the blood loss. Both attempts to stop blood loss provoke AoOs.
Open Wounds - The brawler digs his fingers into a cut and tears it open. Requires the opponent to be bleeding or below 25% of their maximum hitpoints. Makes the attack an unconfirmed critical hit, stops any bleeding.
Slam - The brawler forces the opponent to move 5' away from him, plus 5' for every 10 points of damage dealt. This movement on the opponent's part provokes no AoOs. A slam delivered as an attack of opportunity also trips the foe (this provokes no AoO)
Wild Swing - The brawler makes two attack rolls. If either attack roll misses, the attack misses. If one threatens a critical, the attack threatens a critical hit as well. A foe struck by Wild Swing suffers a -10 penalty on concentration checks made as a consequence of the hit and loses the benefits of any stance.
Assault - The brawler does not apply his strength bonus to damage, but attacks all adjacent foes.
Seize - The brawler strikes a foe and then attempts to grapple them.
Fling - The brawler, if grappling a foe, may make a grapple check. For every 2 points he beats their check by, he may throw them 5'. They may take falling damage as a consequence, varying impact damage if they land somewhere incovenient (such as a table, or store display) and both they and any foe in the square they land in take damage and risk falling prone.
Headbutt - The brawler and the struck target must both make Fortitude saves. Failure for either individual renders them dazed for 1 round.
Shake It Off - The brawler may use an attack option to instead shake off the worst effects of common conditions (bleeding, dazed, stunned, nauseated, sickened, shaken, etc). He may do this even if the effect would normally prevent him from taking an action, but only if he could otherwise make an attack.

[Merchant]

I think the "wrestler"/brawler should seem bigger and smaller due to his experience when it comes to having the advantage to start a grapple and maybe escape. Maybe an class feature that makes you treat them as a size smaller and a size bigger whenever it would be more beneficial.

Increase reach due to training of flexibility throughout the body.

Milo3 created a race for his Binder class where they are treated as having +1HD in regards to being bound. What if this class was treated similarly where maybe the mechanics got a bonus to HD from 1/2 the lvls in the brawler class. I also think someone that is used to wrestling with the body is good at wrestling with his mind. Meaning gaining a bonus vs compulsions.

I like the increasing carrying capacity which should help against larger foes.

I think that a climbing bonus would be very good. Maybe create maneuvers for different sized opponents. I see the grappler using climbing and swinging manuevers to build momentum and then uses it to throw the larger creature off balance slamming them into the ground.

Maybe some joint locks or pressure points(which should be easier to strike on larger foes)

[Daverin]

Hey guys, was busy for the week, but I haven't forgotten about this. I'm thinking in the next few days I'll try to actually get around to getting some crunch out. Anyone who wants to help is more than welcome to; its probably going to be a job, considering I want to make their own action system.

EDIT: Just got permission from RoC to use his action system! Now I just need to figure out how to make tables on the board, and then, well, do it.

[Daverin]

Wow, note to self, do not try to make a new class with new mechanics when you are near the end of semester and starting a new nightshift job. I promise I WILL get to this; it'll probably be in a couple of weeks, when my semester and job end.

[zegram 33]

i wouldnt worry, im in pretty much exactly the same situation myself, though i can vouch for others