Sacred Fist Build Review/Help

[JamesW]

Hello everyone! Thanks in advance for any opinions or options you might reveal to help me out here. Really appreciate it.

Race: Human

Str: 12
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 14
Cha: 14

Diety: Annam - Favored Weapon - Unarmed Attacks

lvl 1: Favored Soul - Combat Casting, Improved Trip
lvl 2: Monk - Stunning Fist
lvl 3: Monk - combat Reflexes, <feat>
lvl 4-7: Favored Soul - +1Cha, Improved Natural Attack
lvl 8-17: Sacred Fist - +3Cha, Snap Kick(9), Knock-down(12), Freezing the Life blood(15)
lvl 18-20: Favored Soul - +1Cha, Rolibar's Gambit

Can I use enhancement items to str to quality for the 15 str requirement for Knock-down?

I looked at superior unarmed attacks and think a monks belt would be better and they don't stack according to this post. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51674

What should I take for my level 3 feat?

Any suggestions or comments?

[JamesW]

*bump*

Still curious if there is a way to improve this build or not.

Thanks again!

[Keld Denar]

I'd honestly do Cleric over FS. Turn Undead is just such a powerful class feature. Even if you aren't going the standard DMM route, there are still lots of fun things you can do with it...like Law Devotion or Divine Spell Power or even Divine Might (although you probably don't have the Cha to facilitate Divine Might).

[JamesW]

One of the reasons I was asking this question is because I am kind of stuck between Cleric and Favored Soul...

Cleric: Domains, access to every spell potentially, 1 extra class level I can use for something else since I only need to get to caster level 17 to reach 9th level spells.

Favored Soul: Works like a Sorcerer, Free Weapon Focus(unarmed attacks), and I'll still have access to 9th level spells at level 20

Is having access to 9th level spells that necessary for a Cleric/Favored Soul?

Role: Healer/Striker - I want to be able to deal out some holy punishment. The idea here is to buff myself while keeping some slots open for healing. I like the fact that Favored Souls can cast more spells a day than a cleric. They also have Good Saves in all three categories making it more difficult for my character to fall prey to the enemies spells..

But even with liking Favored Soul so much, and having my DM rule that Favored Souls can either have Knowledge Arcana or Religion as a class skill, I am still wondering about cleric...

Most of my feats are burnt on increasing my combat potential. I still have one level 3 feat that I need to decide what to do with. I might go with create potion or something of that nature.

But, Can I use enhancement items to quality for feats? If not, then I will have to re-think some things. Because I'll have readjust my stats in order to qualify for knock-down(str 15). Also, at that point I'll have to start wondering if the build is even viable going for striker.

So many questions and opinions... I know.. but I do really appreciate any and all help I get with this.

[Vizzerdrix]

I might go with create potion or something of that nature.

Could I recommend Ancestral Relic, maybe? I've played a similar build and used this feat on an amulet to good effect.

As for entry, Cleric* has the benefit of only needing to worry about wisdom for spells, so that's one less stat you'd have to worry about. If you want a spontaneous Divine caster, Unearthed Arcana has rules for converting the cleric (and the druid) into one.

*On the third hand, a cloistered cleric gets knowledge domain for free. Swap it for Knowledge Devotion feat to give you a bit more bang for the buck.

[onemorelurker]

Could I recommend Ancestral Relic, maybe? I've played a similar build and used this feat on an amulet to good effect.

As for entry, Cleric* has the benefit of only needing to worry about wisdom for spells, so that's one less stat you'd have to worry about. If you want a spontaneous Divine caster, Unearthed Arcana has rules for converting the cleric (and the druid) into one.

*On the third hand, a cloistered cleric gets knowledge domain for free. Swap it for Knowledge Devotion feat to give you a bit more bang for the buck.

Seconding Cleric instead of FS. Monks are seriously MAD to begin with, so tying your casting to one of the two stats they can afford to dump is going to stretch you even thinner than you would be with a single-class Monk. If you go (Cloistered) Cleric and drop your Cha down to 10, you can bump your Wis to 16 and one of your other stats up by 2 as well (assuming 32 point buy, which is what you appear to be using).

[Keld Denar]

Again, spellcasting aside...Turn Undead is awesome. You want it. You want to utilize it (for everything BUT turning undead). Seriously, go look up Law Devotion. Law Devotion makes Weapon Focus look like a chump. With TU and at least a 10 Cha, thats 2 activations per day. With a 14 Cha and a +2 Cha item, that's 3 activations per day.

[skycycle blues]

I'm not familiar with the Deity you're using. What book is it from and what domains does it offer?

I also strongly suggest Cleric over Favored Soul for every reason mentioned. Faster spell progression and more spells to choose from give you more strength than FS. Law and Knowledge Devotion(especially on a Cloistered Cleric) are probably among the top three Devotion feats (the other being Travel) and TU is golden for fueling Law and Travel, either of which would be great if your deity's domains correspond.

[JamesW]

Alright I've read all the posts... looked into it more and I think this is more in line with what you guys are suggesting.

Str: 10
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 16
Cha: 10

If I run Cloistered cleric I wont be able to enter into Sacred Fist until 9th level.

Deity: Horus-Re - Good, Law, Nobility, Retribution, Sun

Domains: Law, Sun, Knowledge

lvl 1: Cloistered Cleric - Combat Casting, Law Devotion - Domains: Law, Sun, Knowledge
lvl 2: Monk - Stunning Fist
lvl 3: Monk - Combat Reflexes, Sun Devotion
lvl 4: Crusader - +1Wis, Stance: Martial Spirit, Crusader's Strike, Vanguard Strike, Leading the Attack, Stone Bones, Douse the Flames
lvl 5-7: Cloistered Cleric - Improved Natural Attack
lvl 8-17: Sacred Fist - +2Wis, +1Cha, Snap Kick(9), Knowledge Devotion(12), Freezing the Life blood?(15)
lvl 18-20: Cloistered Cleric - +1Cha, Rolibar's Gambit?

Alright... so here is the build so far. I need to take as my 4th level a class with good bab so I can have +4 bab when I hit level 8 so I can enter into Sacred Fist. I am thinking about Crusader for the following reasons..

1) Martial Spirit - letting every melee heal themselves while we attack.
2) Crusader's Strike - heal someone or me and I get to attack
3) +1 Bab - I will need to enter Sacred Fist
4) Steely Resolve - Delayed damage is cool... especially when I get to add it to and bonus to attack in the following round.

Can anyone find a better 1 level dip for the +1 Bab at level 4?

Also, should I drop Freezing the Life Blood and Rolibar's Gambit and pick up Extra Turning and something else? By level 12 I will have Law/Sun/Knowledge Devotion which.. will add Law - +7 attack or armor, Sun - +my level sacred damage, Knowledge - + Check result to attack.

Btw: Sun Devotion trounces Sacred flames.. however, Sacred Flames from the Sacred Fist Prc will just give me something else to use on the side.

All of these are swift actions. I love them! Thank you so much for mentioning them like 5 times lol!


Okay... Onto magical items for the Sacred Fist

I need to figure out a way to magic up my hands. A friend mentioned Kensai... but I don't want to sink 10 levels into it.. nor do I have 10 levels to sink into it.

Could I perhaps enchant hand wraps? Or would enchanting them like a weapon make it count as a weapon and in doing so bar me from the Sacred Fist benefits? Or will I not even need it? I mean... I will be enchanting my hands and feet with the greater magic weapon and magic weapon. So, will I actually need it? If I can it would be nice to get some hand straps with Sacred, Holy, and Holy Burst on them with a +5 bonus eventually.

Anyway, I really appreciate all the help everyone is giving. This is really helping me flesh out this character a lot!

[Hirax]

ctrl+f "travel devotion"

Phrase not found.

Take advantage of that pool of turn attempts to up your mobility level with travel devotion.

[JamesW]

I looked at the Travel Domain... but I kind of like Sun a bit better. I am already a monk-ish character and will have increased movement and a ton of points in tumble and the like.

Plus Sun allows me to use greater turn undead once a day and destroy the mobs that I turn. As well as using the devotion to add +1/level sacred damage to my attacks for 1 minute.

Don't get me wrong.. Travel Domain is really nice.. I just need a bit more punch since I will most likely not be able to enchant my fists or hand wraps.

[lord_khaine]

But to start with, if you were a better spellcaster then you could cast greater magic weapon on your hands.

Or try and get your hands on a Necklace of natural attacks?

[skycycle blues]

I looked at the Travel Domain... but I kind of like Sun a bit better. I am already a monk-ish character and will have increased movement and a ton of points in tumble and the like.

Plus Sun allows me to use greater turn undead once a day and destroy the mobs that I turn. As well as using the devotion to add +1/level sacred damage to my attacks for 1 minute.

Don't get me wrong.. Travel Domain is really nice.. I just need a bit more punch since I will most likely not be able to enchant my fists or hand wraps.

Sun Devotion only allows you to deal extra damage to undead. Travel Devotion lets you make a full attack after moving your speed. Even if everything you fight is undead, always being able to full attack from the most advantageous position will probably result in more damage dealt overall.

[Soranar]

Minor contribution but it's bound to help

For some reason no one bothered to mention the mighty wallop (and greater mighty wallop)

In effect, it increases you weapon size if it's a blunt weapon (which works with unarmed strikes)

Lasts for hours.

You can get access to it through the magic domain (anyspell)

[Vizzerdrix]

Before, when I mentioned Ancestral Relic. Use it to make an Necklace of natural attacks (Or the other amulet. Don't remember it's name atm).


Things like a monks belt, a healing belt, Bead of Karma, some night sticks and a Haversack should kit you out rather nicely. And Shapesand! All kinds of shapesand! Mwahahahahaaa!

[JamesW]

I understand that being able to make a full attack after you move is really really good. But, by level 9 I'll have snap kick. Which will mean even if I move and attack I will always have at least two attacks. And if they both hit I'll be doing more damage in sacred damage from Sun Devotion than I would be with just a full attack which would be 1d10 damage and and with a full attack I would only have one additional attack anyway (+6/+1). Travel Domain really wont come in handy until much later, unless I wanted to prepare summon spells for some silly reason which I wouldn't do anyway.

Getting the Mighty Wallop or Greater Mighty Wallop would be nice.. but I can just get access to a ring armband that has 1-3 charges a day. That will solve that problem quite nicely. I can also get access to a charge item that will cast enlarge person on myself to increase the damage that way as well. Since it seems I wont need to waste money on weapon enchantments I should have plenty of money for trinkets.

Necklace of natural attacks Savage Species... Seems I will have weapon enchants to pay for after all. I've read a few posts about the necklace and it's potential costs. I am leaning towards x1 cost since all of the monks attacks are dealt just like a fighter's attacks +6/+1 is still two attacks with one weapon. If I took TWF that would be entirely different.

Well... it looks like I am pretty much set then.

Another point on the Sun Domain over the Travel Domain is that my fury of blows will be stuck at level 2. This is because Sacred Fist says that they sacrifice their supernatural abilities to cast spells. That and it also does not specifically state that levels of Sacred Fist increase Fury of Blows. However, this would give me an additional attack at level 9 increasing my full attack to a -4 to all attacks but I would get +2/+2(SK)/+2(FoB)/-3 which is nice.. but remember I will still only be doing 1d10 damage base anyway. I'd rather just have the +4/+4(SK) and have +9 Sacred damage to both attacks. This only gets better as I level up as well. Something else to consider is that I will be roaming around and healing the group as I fight.. which does make Travel more appealing.

I don't know... there is something about using a turn on undead and having them just be destroyed ... it just seems awesome and powerful.

If I did concede to go with Travel.. Cyndor would be the Deity and I would have Law and Travel and Law and Travel Devotion.

Gah.. this is a hard decision. :(

[skycycle blues]

The sacred damage from Sun Devotion also only applies to Undead. I've already mentioned this but it doesn't seem like you're factoring it in to your decision.

[JamesW]

*smacks self*

I apologize. I did miss that entirely.

Travel is a far superior domain then. However, I think I'll stick with Sun. I plan on fighting a lot of undead with this character and the super turn + sacred damage will help out a lot.


Thanks again every for all the help!

[gallagher]

*smacks self*

I apologize. I did miss that entirely.

Travel is a far superior domain then. However, I think I'll stick with Sun. I plan on fighting a lot of undead with this character and the super turn + sacred damage will help out a lot.


Thanks again every for all the help!

if you are fighting a lot of undead, then why not just use TU regularly? with proper allocation of resources and wise planning, your unarmed damage will be fine. because you are a cleric, you will have access to spells like Divine Strength and Righteous Might, and the Magic Domain helps you with Greater Mighty Wallop through Anyspell. Full attacking from travel domain with a size increase and enhanced strength with a gargantuan sized fist is much better than what sun domain is offering.

and that is just one trick.

also, have you looked at the glory domain? holy sword is awesome for unarmed strikes, since you cant accidentally drop them

[JamesW]

Agreed. Playing the Size game is what is best for monks. But I was looking for ideas contained within a certain character concept that I decided to leave un-named so I could see what everyone would offer.

I love the travel domain as well as magic. But, it fits the character better to roll with Law and Sun.

Thanks again everyone for all of the helpful advice! ^_^