Master of My Domain

[willpell]

(I find I am getting into the habit of asking rules questions here rather than on the official Wizards website; I hope nobody minds.)

A couple questions on cleric Domains (well, one question on cleric Domains and one question about metamagic that happened to occur to me while I was looking at Domains); neither seems answered explicitly in the rules:

1. If I have access to a spell through my Domain which is normally a Sor/Wiz spell, and it calls for a material component, do I need that component? Normally cleric spells don't call for components, and it seems out-of-flavor that a priest of Kord can't Enlarge Person because he can't find a pinch of powdered iron. I assume that if Enlarge Person had been a standard Cleric spell it would have used the M/DF line as do most spells that are shared by clerics and wizards; anyone think I'm being terribly disloyal to RAW if I houserule that my Strength-cleric can cast Enlarge Person with his holy symbol instead of carrying a little bag of iron filings everywhere he goes?

2. Say I'm playing a badly unoptimized character (or have been hit with an ability score penalty, assuming those count when preparing spells which I'm fairly sure they do). I've got fifth-level spell slots, but I've got only 14 Wisdom, so I can't prepare a 5th-level spell. I'm allowed to use my domain's 5-slot for a lower-level spell; my question is, can I metamagic that spell "for free" or would that actually make it count as the higher level and thus unavailable to me because of my low Wisdom?

[Venger]

no problem, lots of people prefer to come here for rules questions:

1. If a spell says "arcane material component" like scrying, for example, then it is not applicable to you since you cast it as a divine spell. you are not immune to using all material components. animate dead, for example, still needs onyx when cast by a cleric. enlarge person doesn't say "arcane material component" just "material component" so you do need the filings. it's not a big deal though, they don't cost any money and are always understood to be in your spell components bag.

2. if you have your ability score damaged to 14, you cannot cast 5th level spells. that includes a metamagiced lower level spell that is now a 5th since it's using up a 5th level slot

[Amphetryon]

no problem, lots of people prefer to come here for rules questions:

2. if you have your ability score damaged to 14, you cannot cast 5th level spells. that includes a metamagiced lower level spell that is now a 5th since it's using up a 5th level slot
While this is true, WotC has published a few example casters who filled their higher level spell slots with un-metamagicked lower level spells (like a vanilla Magic Missile in a 3rd level slot) because their primary caster stat was not high enough to cast sufficiently high level spells. WotC has, on rare* occasions, made errors in their examples, so take that for what it's worth.

*For certain values of "rare".

[willpell]

it's not a big deal though, they don't cost any money and are always understood to be in your spell components bag.

But this is the only spell that would make my hypothetical Strength-cleric even HAVE a spell component pouch; it'd probably be cheaper just for him to buy the powdered iron in bulk, or better yet scrape a few grains off his own armor. Besides, it just seems off-theme; wizards in D&D use material components because they're hacking the metaphysical laws of the universe, turning a pinch of cat fur into the agility of a cat or a bit of wool into symbolic "wool over your eyes", but a cleric is casting these spells by channeling his deity's power, and so I don't know why he would ever be able to cast them when he doesn't have his holy symbol, let alone do it by using the same chintzy props and ingredients that the nutcase in the pointy hat uses to brew up some obscenity against the laws of nature and God alike.


2. if you have your ability score damaged to 14, you cannot cast 5th level spells. that includes a metamagiced lower level spell that is now a 5th since it's using up a 5th level slot

This seems logical to me, but except for Heighten Spell, none of the metamagic actually increases the spell's level, it just puts it in a higher slot. This is one of those cases where they could have stood to be a bit more clear, perhaps clarifying with some extra jargon (just what the game needs, right?) about "input levels" and "output levels" where these questions could answer themselves more easily. Then again, we are talking about the same people who wrioe rules text gems such as "You can fire a repeating crossbow with one hand in the same manner as you would a normal crossbow of the same size", or "this attack counts against your maximum limit of uses of your turn undead ability for the day".

[prufock]

But this is the only spell that would make my hypothetical Strength-cleric even HAVE a spell component pouch

Discuss it with your DM. For material components of negligible cost, it isn't unreasonable to change them to M/DF, since you don't keep track of those components anyway. This is the way I run it.

[KillianHawkeye]

While this is true, WotC has published a few example casters who filled their higher level spell slots with un-metamagicked lower level spells (like a vanilla Magic Missile in a 3rd level slot) because their primary caster stat was not high enough to cast sufficiently high level spells. WotC has, on rare* occasions, made errors in their examples, so take that for what it's worth.

*For certain values of "rare".

That's not an error. Any spellcaster can fill their Nth level spell slots with lower level spells.

[Elfinor]

While this is true, WotC has published a few example casters who filled their higher level spell slots with un-metamagicked lower level spells (like a vanilla Magic Missile in a 3rd level slot) because their primary caster stat was not high enough to cast sufficiently high level spells. WotC has, on rare* occasions, made errors in their examples, so take that for what it's worth.

*For certain values of "rare". I've seen that as well. I'm sure I've seen a Rules of the Game/Rules Compendium article on it but I can't find the one I think I remember. All I have now is this article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050503a) which says that by RAI (as Rules of the Game effectively is) metamagic doesn't increase the minimum ability score needed to cast a spell. FWIW, I don't agree with the article I linked to.

[Jasdoif]

I'm allowed to use my domain's 5-slot for a lower-level spell; my question is, can I metamagic that spell "for free" or would that actually make it count as the higher level and thus unavailable to me because of my low Wisdom?The latter.
In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell. Saving throw modifications are not changed unless stated otherwise in the feat description. Emphasis mine. Since it's cast as a higher-level spell, you would need to meet the higher ability score minimum in order to cast it.



Then again, we are talking about the same people who wrioe rules text gems such as "You can fire a repeating crossbow with one hand in the same manner as you would a normal crossbow of the same size", or "this attack counts against your maximum limit of uses of your turn undead ability for the day".I'm partial to the "an incorporeal touch attack is not a touch attack" example, myself :smalltongue:

[willpell]

The latter.Emphasis mine. Since it's cast as a higher-level spell, you would need to meet the higher ability score minimum in order to cast it.

OK, got it.


I'm partial to the "an incorporeal touch attack is not a touch attack" example, myself :smalltongue:

Or from the article that Elfinor linked, "Casting a spell as a full-round action is not the same as casting a spell with a casting time of 1 full round." I'm sure there's more....

[Marnath]

Or from the article that Elfinor linked, "Casting a spell as a full-round action is not the same as casting a spell with a casting time of 1 full round." I'm sure there's more....

That's actually different though. A full-round spell uses up your standard and move actions and then happens. A one round spell does that, but doesn't get finished until right before your next turn which gives people all kinds of chances to interrupt you.

[willpell]

That's actually different though. A full-round spell uses up your standard and move actions and then happens. A one round spell does that, but doesn't get finished until right before your next turn which gives people all kinds of chances to interrupt you.

Yes it's different, but my point is that they don't use terms which clarify that difference. If instead of "full-round action" it was, say, "committed action", there'd be no possibility of confusion and no need to clarify.