So, a few questions from a new player

[valsedecoconut]

A short while back I posted questions asking how to build a monk. Well, the game I was building for started.

The game's going well. My monk's now level 4 (2 levels in monk of the passive way, 2 levels in cleric of the traveler, going sacred fist ASAP). Now, apparently our DM is a fairly tough guy. We almost got TPK'd 3 times already.

Our, uh, Factotum is the strongest in the party. He doesn't try to show us off or anything, but whenever we're about to be really TPK'd, he morphs into a raptor and kills everything. I still am not sure how he does it. :smallconfused: But I guess it's reassuring to know that we always have a backup plan.

I still feel like deadweight, although arguably it's because of bad d20 rolls. They average (and yes, I counted them) 7 with a standard deviation of 2. In any case, I'm not particularly helpful in teamfights. My healing is nice, though. Or, at least, I think it is. Our DM also gave me an ability score bonus, on the basis of me not knowing what I'm doing, so my lowest stat is a 12.

So my questions are: We almost got TPK'd by a Divine Minion Expert1/Master of Many Forms1 who was lower level than us. ...How and why?
How are wizards and artificers so dangerous to our entire party despite being lower level?
The DM's monks are scary. They hurt. I'm not sure how they were built, but those monks flat out-damaged me. So many extra d6's. Flank attacks from nowhere. Ouch ouch ouch. Also, Karmic strike. :smallyuk:
The DM never forces us to fight "grinding" encounters, but if we look for them ourselves, he won't hesitate to send them against us. Our last one was against a crapton of kobolds. Another one was against feral zombies.
What the hell am I supposed to do against ghosts? Every single time we found a ghost, our Factotum had to jump in and bail our butts with whatever the hell it is he does.
What is chaotic maws and why should we never fight against wizards who can cast it? (BTW the wizard who can cast it is our "employer".)
A bit of un-railroaded exploring revealed a gateway to a place called Union. I was curious, but my party sort of metagamed and said, "We're not going in there."
The boss fight was against a monster. One monster of our level vs five of us. That monster was ridiculously hard to kill. What was it? Description: monster looks like a hulking piece of rock, jutting sharp edges, protruding minerals glimmering dimly. Vaguely resembles an orc otherwise.

[Hiro Protagonest]

So my questions are:
The boss fight was against a monster. One monster of our level vs five of us. That monster was ridiculously hard to kill. What was it? Description: monster looks like a hulking piece of rock, jutting sharp edges, protruding minerals glimmering dimly. Vaguely resembles an orc otherwise.

Orc Mineral Warrior. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e)

[Azoth]

1) divine minions gain shapeshifting as a lvl11 druid for a +1 la. With master of many forms giving him more options for forms. It is a cheesey combo IMHO.

2) even low level wizards have many save-or-suck and save-or-die (grease/sleep/color spray to name a few core spells)

3) say hello to monk/rogue multiclassers with vexing flanker

4) Ghosts are the bane of every monk. Try for either getting home brewed handwraps you can enchant or an amulet of natural attacks from savage species.

5)Maws of Chaos is bad bad things. If I remember right AFB ATM uncapped d6/cl AoE force damage

6)Yeah...definitely Mineral Warrior template. A strong LA+1 template.

[valsedecoconut]

Oh, also could someone explain level adjustment to me like I'm stupid? I'm reading the rules over and over again and I can't make heads or tails. Say I was a level 2 monk, and I took a template with LA+1, +2, and +3. How does that work out?

[MesiDoomstalker]

LA is like fake levels. If you have LA +1, then your effective character level (ECL) is your class levels+1. Its to balance races that are stronger than standard races like Humans and Elves. So if you were a Drow (LA +2) your ECL is 6 so for all purposes your 6th level. You'd adventure with level 6 PC's fight enemies approprait for level 6 group etc. What it doesn't do is give you class abilities, which are almost always better than LA, nor BAB, saves or skills.

[Rejusu]

I have no idea how that Factotum is doing what he's doing either. Some kind of magic item or racial feature perhaps. At 4th level he should only have 1st level spells and I can't think of any 1st level spells that'd let him turn into a raptor.

For ghosts you need some way of doing force damage or something else that can affect them.

Wizards and artificers lower level than you can be deadly because of magic items, artificers especially so. Basically all the XP that'd normally be used to level up is spent crafting magic items. There's a mechanic known as the EXP river which details how characters lower level can be mechanically superior by taking advantage of crafting.

Finally it's not really a good idea to pay too much attention to what level the DM's stuff is when comparing your own power level to it. Especially if you actually only know their class level as opposed to their ECL.

[Legendairy]

No offence but you are a Monk until you can start into your Prestige classes you are going to feel somewhat out shined and with the average 7 roll almost completely useless. Your time to shine will come eventually just try to think of other things that can help out alchemical items and things.

I also think there is an alchemical item that lets you hit ghosts like once. The "problem" is the DM knows how to build and you dont no worries again you will get there and these forums are an amazing help in that aspect.

Think all your questions have been covered, again the factatum may have some DM given item to make up for giving you stat boosts?

[Zale]

So my questions are:
How are wizards and artificers so dangerous to our entire party despite being lower level?


Wizards and Artificers are powerful when played correctly. The have many spells that are save and suck (Make a saving throw or suffer some nasty and often debilitating penalty), save or die (As the name implies). Under the Tier system (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0), they are Tier One, being some of the most powerful classes.



What the hell am I supposed to do against ghosts? Every single time we found a ghost, our Factotum had to jump in and bail our butts with whatever the hell it is he does.

You need a magic weapon to have a chance of hitting them (50%), A Ghost-Touch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#ghostTouchWeapon) gets rid of the 50% miss chance. As a monk, you'll probably find it hard to use a weapon that works with unarmed damage.


What is chaotic maws and why should we never fight against wizards who can cast it? (BTW the wizard who can cast it is our "employer".)

It's probably a high level spell capable of murdering a small town.

[Gavinfoxx]

First of all -- Monk is in the running for the weakest class in the entire game. Be aware of that. Despite the fact that it is presented as equivalent in power to a Wizard, Druid, or Cleric, it is most definitely not. This makes sense that the first book to come out (the Player's Handbook) is the most unbalanced, because that was the one that the designers wrote with the least amount of gameplay experience under their belt. I'm glad you are taking cleric and passive way and stuff, but at this point you are weaker than a level 4 Cleric, to a large extent. It will get better as soon as you get Sacred Fist. Promise.

As for other stuff... the DM is using character optimization techniques that give low level characters lots of power -- presumably so he can use low level characters (that thereby have a low challenge rating) and still make the fights difficult, without giving out lots of XP or gear as a consequence. This is because the main suite of techniques for Character Optimization focuses on increasing power for any given Effective Character Level, which can fairly easily translate into the most amount of power for any given Challenge Rating... in general (say), a Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem Water Orc Barbarian 1 is a pretty major threat, despite being a level 1 'character'...

A Maw of Chaos is a level 9 spell from the book Spell Compendium.

This means your employer is a level 18 Wizard, at least.

This means that he could probably kill deities, and he has several ways to stop you from being a danger to him, 100% of the time, no matter what you do. He has several ways of always winning initiative, or always taking actions ahead of you, and several spells that will just flat out kill you, no attack roll, no save, nothing, which he can get off before you can do anything at all

[Emperor Tippy]

We almost got TPK'd by a Divine Minion Expert1/Master of Many Forms1 who was lower level than us. ...How and why?
Already answered, can wildshape as a level 11 druid iirc.

How are wizards and artificers so dangerous to our entire party despite being lower level?
Because they are wizards and artificers and those are just that good, and we could (and do) have entire threads about how and why this is the case.

The DM's monks are scary. They hurt. I'm not sure how they were built, but those monks flat out-damaged me. So many extra d6's. Flank attacks from nowhere. Ouch ouch ouch. Also, Karmic strike. :smallyuk:
You are a new player, your DM is apparently reasonably experienced; expect this to be the case. The DM might also be throwing higher level monks at you, I tend to throw a level 10 monk at a level 5 party as a CR appropriate challenge.

The DM never forces us to fight "grinding" encounters, but if we look for them ourselves, he won't hesitate to send them against us. Our last one was against a crapton of kobolds. Another one was against feral zombies.
Good for him, the DM should rarely force encounters.

What the hell am I supposed to do against ghosts? Every single time we found a ghost, our Factotum had to jump in and bail our butts with whatever the hell it is he does.
At monk 4 you get Ki Strike which makes your attacks magical, this gives you the ability to hurt ghosts.


What is chaotic maws and why should we never fight against wizards who can cast it? (BTW the wizard who can cast it is our "employer".)
A 9th level spell, Maw of Chaos. Don't fight people who can solo nations, just as general advice, unless you can also do so.

A bit of un-railroaded exploring revealed a gateway to a place called Union. I was curious, but my party sort of metagamed and said, "We're not going in there."
An epic level planar city.

The boss fight was against a monster. One monster of our level vs five of us. That monster was ridiculously hard to kill. What was it? Description: monster looks like a hulking piece of rock, jutting sharp edges, protruding minerals glimmering dimly. Vaguely resembles an orc otherwise.
Mineral warrior template probably.

[Zale]

At monk 4 you get Ki Strike which makes your attacks magical, this gives you the ability to hurt ghosts.

I thought that only counted for Damage Reduction. My mistake, then.

[Emperor Tippy]

I thought that only counted for Damage Reduction. My mistake, then.

Hmm, it appears that you are right. My mistake, forgot that was a house rule. :smallredface:

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, in general, the LAST thing a character wants to do is use unarmed strikes. You want weapons -- magic weapons, made out of useful materials -- as quickly as possible...

Also, since you are a Cleric 2? Just Prepare Magic Weapon and cast it on your unarmed strike, if you want to fight Ghosts and such. You can also prepare Silvered Weapon, I think Clerics can cast that, from Spell Compendium I think.

[Answerer]

Honestly, it sounds like your DM is being... a little overbearing. Ghosts against a new player's Monk is rather mean. Using Divine Minion at all against a group whose best character is a Factotum is just cruel. I can't say I have a very high opinion of your DM based on this information. I'm all for challenging, but this simply doesn't sound winnable, and he doesn't seem to have a good grasp over game balance, particularly with respect to what your chosen characters can and cannot do.

Basically, it sounds a bit like he's enjoying the fact that he knows the game better than you a bit too much, and is not really giving you appropriate encounters with which to learn.


Of course, however, part of the problem is the Monk. It's a terrible class, with very little to recommend it. I'd strongly suggest retraining or introducing a new character, if I were you. Particularly if Tome of Battle is in play – a Swordsage can make a very excellent wise martial artist type character, which the Monk is supposed to but is unable to do.

[Gavinfoxx]

To be fair, he is a Passive Way Monk 2 / Cleric 2.

That is not a bad build. He could just pick up a Quarterstaff, cast Magic Weapon on it, cast Divine Favor on himself, two hand it, and go to town, and have the option of flurrying or not as need be.

Str 14, No Flurry, those two spells up, attacking with at least a Standard Action:
+6/1d6+5

The breakup of the to hit is +2 bab, +2 str, +1 enhancement from magic weapon, +1 luck divine favor, the damage is 3 from strength [x1.5 for two handing] +1 enhancement from magic weapon, and + 1 luck from divine favor.

Str 14, Flurrying, those two spells up, which requires a full attack action:
+4/1d6+4
+4/1d6+4

The breakup of the to hit is +2 bab, +2 str, + 1 enhancement from magic weapon, +1 luck from divine favor, -2 from flurry, the damage is 2 from strength, with no 1.5x because of flurrying, +1 enhancement from magic weapon, and +1 luck from divine favor.

He'd be able to deal with Ghosts and stuff as well as just about anyone else at this level, as long as he casts Magic Weapon.

Also, you are a level 4 character. A Divine Minion Expert Master of Many Forms is a level 3 character -- a solid challenge for you, and a cheesier build than you have, too. I think it used Expert to artificially lower the Challenge Rating without really lowering the power...

[Azoth]

Come on, cut the kid a break. Not all of us play to power or to optimize. Granted for fist to the face antics unarmed swordsage, brb/ftr/fof, or even a ftr with IUS, TWF, SUS, INA, Snap Kick, comat reflexes could do it better at ECL6.

Seriously though, once you get into sacred fist the game will turn around and you will be able to hold your own against appropriate encounters.

[darkbuu_1]

There is a variant shifter race that can shift in to a raptor, I can't remember all the details but I think they get an int penalty so probably not.

[nedz]

There is a variant shifter race that can shift in to a raptor, I can't remember all the details but I think they get an int penalty so probably not.

Saurian Shifter Dragon 328 p62 perhaps ?
+2 Con, –2 Int, –2 Cha