illusions interaction clause

[limejuicepowder]

lacking a formal definition for what constitutes iteraction when facing illusions, what do y'all suggest? at what point does a character or creature get to save against illusions? im dming a game right now and there is a a strong posibility the players will facing a beguiler soon. two of players being rules lawyerly, i dont want to piss anyone off. thanks!

[Elfinor]

Skip Williams has done four Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg) articles on Illusions, scroll down a bit to find them. The articles aren't strict RAW, but I've found the illusion articles to be sensibly written and an invaluable resource.

[Otomodachi]

The opinion I most favoured that I've seen coming up in talks about this very thing is that interaction is anything that involves using either a move or a standard action. You shouldn't have to use the action solely to disbelieve- "I use my move action to disbelieve, what's the DC?", BUT, the player should have to move UP to the illusion; swing a sword at the illusion; throw a rock THROUGH the illusion; finally get some use from that ten-foot-pole (this is 50% of why that item is still listed as standard adventuring gear, to those who cut their teeth on 3/3.5 :P ).

This only really matters in combat situations, I guess, but I think it's the best way to handle it in combat.

[prufock]

lacking a formal definition for what constitutes iteraction when facing illusions, what do y'all suggest? at what point does a character or creature get to save against illusions? im dming a game right now and there is a a strong posibility the players will facing a beguiler soon. two of players being rules lawyerly, i dont want to piss anyone off. thanks!

I just use the dictionary definition: "to act one upon another." So any action you take that could affect the illusion provokes a save.

[shadow_archmagi]

I've got a scenario that I've never gotten a satisfying answer to:

Hegurow the Sorcerer is in the woods at night, and his party is ambushed by a handful of Ghouls. Thinking quickly, he casts Ghost Sound to mimic a brigade of paladins just over the hill- he's level three, so he can produce the sound of twelve humans shouting (Specifically, shouting that they thought they heard the sounds of a fight and let's go investigate, Brother Holysword)- more than enough holy warriors to drive away the ghouls.

How is this handled?

My DM insisted that they got a Will Save (Which they all proceeded to make.)

I argued that they shouldn't get a save, since they weren't interacting with the sound- That would require them to call out to the nonexistent troops or dialogue with them in some way.

On the other hand, even if they can't for sure identify the sound as being magical in origin, they probably shouldn't be forced to auto-believe that the cavalry is about to arrive- If that was true, then you could force any enemy to retreat using the lowest level illusion spell.

I suggested that the DM make it a Bluff check, since the real question wasn't "Can I force my way through this illusion through sheer force of will?" but rather "Has the sorcerer made this convincing enough that even though I know it's fishy I'm going to play it safe until I can be sure"

[Otomodachi]

I've got a scenario that I've never gotten a satisfying answer to:

Hegurow the Sorcerer is in the woods at night, and his party is ambushed by a handful of Ghouls. Thinking quickly, he casts Ghost Sound to mimic a brigade of paladins just over the hill- he's level three, so he can produce the sound of twelve humans shouting (Specifically, shouting that they thought they heard the sounds of a fight and let's go investigate, Brother Holysword)- more than enough holy warriors to drive away the ghouls.

How is this handled?

My DM insisted that they got a Will Save (Which they all proceeded to make.)

I argued that they shouldn't get a save, since they weren't interacting with the sound- That would require them to call out to the nonexistent troops or dialogue with them in some way.

I would've adjudicated it required a move action for a listen check.

Edit: Oops, sorry, with a DC equal to the spell save DC.

Edit2: I'd probably use the listen DC modifers, as well, so that the spells wouldn't automatically become ineffective against a character who has listen as a class skill and maintains it.

Edit3: I thought about sense motive, but the thing is- bluff is cross class for almost any class with illusion magic (unsupported generalization, please no head-biting! :P ) and, for the illusionist, you already HAVE some numbers to put together to produce a DC for the target to oppose (i.e., the spell DC system) so as a DM, I'd wanna avoid adding ANOTHER die roll to this system. The Listen skill has a decent modifer table you can use to try situationally increase the effectiveness of your illusions. Standard 18 int wizard using ghost sound on a guard just standing there, guarding, would be a DC 14 listen check with a +1 to DC per 10 ft. of distance from the origin of the sound. It might seem like you could jack the DC arbitrarily by placing the sound in the right place, but it has to be close enough to be heard (duh) and sound close enough to be a concern to the target.

[Slipperychicken]

I've got a scenario that I've never gotten a satisfying answer to:

Hegurow the Sorcerer is in the woods at night, and his party is ambushed by a handful of Ghouls. Thinking quickly, he casts Ghost Sound to mimic a brigade of paladins just over the hill- he's level three, so he can produce the sound of twelve humans shouting (Specifically, shouting that they thought they heard the sounds of a fight and let's go investigate, Brother Holysword)- more than enough holy warriors to drive away the ghouls.

How is this handled?

My DM insisted that they got a Will Save (Which they all proceeded to make.)

I argued that they shouldn't get a save, since they weren't interacting with the sound- That would require them to call out to the nonexistent troops or dialogue with them in some way.

On the other hand, even if they can't for sure identify the sound as being magical in origin, they probably shouldn't be forced to auto-believe that the cavalry is about to arrive- If that was true, then you could force any enemy to retreat using the lowest level illusion spell.

I suggested that the DM make it a Bluff check, since the real question wasn't "Can I force my way through this illusion through sheer force of will?" but rather "Has the sorcerer made this convincing enough that even though I know it's fishy I'm going to play it safe until I can be sure"

I say that if they pay close attention (use an action), they get a save. Magic can produce other sensory stimuli (touch, smell, taste) just fine, why not auditory too? The actual Listen DC to defeat an auditory illusion is 80. The Ghouls could consider the likelihood that a bunch of Paladins were just waiting there. Since they live in a world containing magic users, they might be aware of this trick, or may have noticed you waving your arms around and chanting immediately before the sounds came (allowing them to infer that could have been the spell's effect), or just made a Spellcraft check.

[nedz]

I've got a scenario that I've never gotten a satisfying answer to:

Hegurow the Sorcerer is in the woods at night, and his party is ambushed by a handful of Ghouls. Thinking quickly, he casts Ghost Sound to mimic a brigade of paladins just over the hill- he's level three, so he can produce the sound of twelve humans shouting (Specifically, shouting that they thought they heard the sounds of a fight and let's go investigate, Brother Holysword)- more than enough holy warriors to drive away the ghouls.

How is this handled?

My DM insisted that they got a Will Save (Which they all proceeded to make.)

I argued that they shouldn't get a save, since they weren't interacting with the sound- That would require them to call out to the nonexistent troops or dialogue with them in some way.

On the other hand, even if they can't for sure identify the sound as being magical in origin, they probably shouldn't be forced to auto-believe that the cavalry is about to arrive- If that was true, then you could force any enemy to retreat using the lowest level illusion spell.

I suggested that the DM make it a Bluff check, since the real question wasn't "Can I force my way through this illusion through sheer force of will?" but rather "Has the sorcerer made this convincing enough that even though I know it's fishy I'm going to play it safe until I can be sure"

Its quite a tricky one and most DMs handle it differently. I'd try and work out how beleivable the event is and how savvy the opponents are. I'd possibly have some ghouls go off and investigate, these would then get a will save and if any passed they would come back, the ones who disbelieved would return first. Alternatively they might just all ignore it. Its very very situational.

[ericgrau]

RAW is:


Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion. For example, if a party encounters a section of illusory floor, the character in the lead would receive a saving throw if she stopped and studied the floor or if she probed the floor.
...
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. A character who falls through a section of illusory floor into a pit knows something is amiss, as does one who spends a few rounds poking at the same illusion. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.


IMO studying closely or interacting with. Merely glancing at one doesn't count. Searching a fake wall, facing an illusion directly in combat (not merely being on the same battlefield, but taking actions against it), etc. Proof lets you auto-pass your save. So if you actually put your hand through an illusory wall instead of merely examining it, it's done, no need to save.

Besides that don't forget the 2nd save at a +4 once an illusion is pointed out.