Request: Bad Player! No 24 Hour Work Days for You!

[NeoSeraphi]

Sleep Mechanics

These are a set of optional penalties and rewards for characters who go without sleep or get a full night's rest. The idea is to encourage players to be realistic about their characters' capabilities and give them serious penalties for ignoring basic requirements of characters.

Elves who do not trance for at least 4 hours per 24 hour time period are considered to have not slept.


Penalties
A character who has not gotten at least 8 hours of rest in the past 24 hours is automatically fatigued. This condition cannot be magically removed, the only way to cure it is to sleep continuously for 8 hours. A character who is immune to fatigue but still requires sleep who has not gotten at least 8 hours of rest in the past 24 hours instead can no longer run or charge until he gets the required amount of sleep.

A character who has not gotten at least 8 hours of sleep in the past 36 hours is automatically exhausted. This condition cannot be magically removed, the only way to cure it is to sleep continuously for 8 hours, at which point the character is fatigued until it gets another 8 hours of rest. A character who is immune to exhaustion but still requires sleep instead moves at half speed and cannot run or charge until he gets 8 hours of continuous sleep, at which point he can no longer run or charge until he sleeps another 8 hours.

A character who has not gotten at least 8 hours of sleep in the past 48 hours falls unconscious. The character cannot be revived, but will automatically wake after 12 hours of continuous sleep.

There is no usually no save allowed to negate these penalties, however, once per week, a character may make a Fortitude save (DC=hours it's been since he has had sleep) to remove a sleep-based fatigue or exhaustion condition for one hour.


Benefits
A character who continuously keeps up with his required sleeping patterns feels fresh and energetic, able to face the circumstances of the day. His mind is clear, his reflexes are sharp, and his health is phenomenal.

A character who has slept peacefully for at least 56 hours over the past 168 hours receives a +1 bonus to AC, saving throws, initiative checks, attack rolls, opposed ability checks, and caster level checks.

[bobthe6th]

don't see why magic can't deal with this... its magic! it can heal your arm falling off and death, sleep deprivation is nothing.

[NeoSeraphi]

don't see why magic can't deal with this... its magic! it can heal your arm falling off and death, sleep deprivation is nothing.

It is via the power of DM fiat. The point of these mechanics is to prevent players from ignoring sleep. Magically or otherwise.

[Saidoro]

You need to mess with the timing on the second two effects. As it is, a person with a regular 8 hour per day sleep schedule will always suffer from all three effects simultaneously the moment he stays up one minute past his regular bed time.

[Steward]

I think the restriction is designed to discourage players from just going weeks without sleeping. Leaving a quick, easy way to get around it (magic) would kind of defeat the purpose of the rest of the mechanic, wouldn't it?

[NeoSeraphi]

You need to mess with the timing on the second two effects. As it is, a person with a regular 8 hour per day sleep schedule will always suffer from all three effects simultaneously the moment he stays up one minute past his regular bed time.

Hmmm, true. How would you suggest I word it then?

[bobthe6th]

that kills realism, really really badly. "got a sword wound, I can fix that. got a flu, I got remove disease. wait, your tired!?! far beyond my 20 levels of cleric, that is the realm of gods!" really?

also now when they want to keep up with plot speed they get heavily penalized. now crossing 20 leagues chasing uruk-hi is impossible... perhaps a fort save to keep going? like DC=hours since sleep?

[NeoSeraphi]

that kills realism, really really badly. "got a sword wound, I can fix that. got a flu, I got remove disease. wait, your tired!?! far beyond my 20 levels of cleric, that is the realm of gods!" really?

Realism and magic don't belong in the same sentence, especially when it comes to WotC.

Think of it this way: the remove fatigue spell can only cure physical exhaustion, but a lack of sleep is a serious mental and physical problem. Conjuration (Healing) spells don't remove mental exhaustion, they only remove mental insanity, mental confusion, and mental...limitation (feeblemind).



also now when they want to keep up with plot speed they get heavily penalized. now crossing 20 leagues chasing uruk-hi is impossible... perhaps a fort save to keep going? like DC=hours since sleep?

Hmm...I guess that will work. At least, for the first two. Going three whole days without sleep will make you drop, no matter how tough you are.

[Saidoro]

You could make stage 1 8 in the last 24, stage 2 8 in the last 36, and stage 3 8 in the last 48. You'd probably need to fiddle with those numbers somewhat to make them actually say what you want them to say but that's the general idea. You could also modify the number of hours needed in any given window, but you'd need to find a way to make it so that people can't be exhausted but not fatigued or whatever.

And to appease Bob:
Wakefulness
Transmutation
Level: Clr 1, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 4 hours
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes
The time in which the affected creature must have last slept to avoid ill effects is increased by 4 hours. So the affected creature is fatigued if it has not slept 8 hours in the last 28 rather than 24 and so on for the other effects.


Just extrapolate from there.

[Steward]

Maybe a 6th or a 7th level spell can ameliorate the effects of sleep deprivation. Or maybe Miracle, Limited Wish, and the other one.

[bobthe6th]

heal feels better. high levels the wizard can just drag you all for an 8 hour nap in a second on his time modified genesis plane.

[The Mentalist]

As someone who suffers from chronic insomnia I think that these benefits need to be scaling (-2 to everything each day, cannot run by day three, hallucinating by day four (keeps you from reading, writing, or having normal conversations)

Exhaustion is a reasonably good mechanic but I will tell you that by two days without sleep I can still run and be reasonably adept at what I need to do but I am definitely "off my game"


Recommended "per day" scaling

-2 to ALL stats
-2 to all skill checks
-2 to Will saves
+10% spell failure
Then add your fatigue/exhaustion where you see fit
The no save pass out really should go in my mind. I would kill to have passed out at three or four days without sleep a lot of the time. Either a fort save to avoid passing out (if voluntary) or a Will save to get to sleep (If through magic or flaw)



tl;dr Exhaustion is a reasonably good pre-made mechanic but I think it needs some work.

[Steward]

As an optional rule for players seeking a special challenge, if you do choose to allow magic to prolong the length of time you can avoid sleep) you could add a sliding scale of probability, indicating how likely they are to be attacked by a dreamfane (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psb/20070711a&page=1) after X amount of days without sleep. You could make the initial probability fairly low, but after seven or more days avoiding sleep through using magic, they are increasingly likely to attract the attention of a malevolent extraplanar entity once they do fall asleep. (You would warn them of this early on, to make it a calculated risk/reward thing).

[Azoth]

My only problem with the mechanic is that as a chronic insomniac it is not too uncommon for me to go three or four days without sleep. Granted I am not happy, nor am I moving at full speed by day three I can still function well enough to do my physically demanding job. The body will eventually cope to lack of sleep and shut itself off at its absolute threshold unless acted on by a chemical pushing it past at the risk of death (about 8-9 days max). Might I suggest instead of dropping unconscious for 16hrs after three days (as I often only sleep a max of 10hrs after an episode) You suffer a cumulative -1 penalty to all stats per 24hrs after the first 24hrs you have gone without sleep. So at 48hrs you have a -1 all, 72hrs -2all, ect ect. This will show the degradation of your muscles and mind from prolonged sleep deprevation. The penalty can be bumped up to -2 if it is more fitting. Also the only removal for these effects is to rest a MINIMUM of 8hrs+1/2penalty.

[Amechra]

And what about people who just don't have much of a need for sleep on a day-by-day basis? In an average night, I tend to only sleep 2-3 hours (though I will sleep the "normal" 8-9 hours on a weekend), and the only ill effects would be a slight penalization of memory.

[Glimbur]

What about races with different physiologies? I'm no expert on lizards, but it seems plausible that lizard folk could require a different amount of sleep. Warforged and necropolitans (physically, if not mentally) should not need sleep at all. There are playable Fey (dusklings from Magic of Incarnum, for one) and they need ??? sleep. It's worth looking at, rather than a blanket "all characters" statement.

[Dr.Orpheus]

I think while yes its possible for people to go over a week (I have almost done it, but the world record holder stayed awake for 11 days!) without sleep it just is not very likely. In my own experience of not sleeping translated to D&D terms as best I can and then modified to represent what someone more average than me.

People require the will each day of being awake and can only stay awake a number of days equal to there constitution. The penalties will come However each will save should become progressively harder like this.

12 hours awake, no will save required
24 hours awake, will save DC 11
36 hours awake, will save DC 13, ability damage (-1 int, wis, and cha)
48 hours awake, will save DC 16, ability damage (-1 str, dex, and con)
60 hours awake, will save DC 20, ability damage (-1 int, wis, and cha)
72 hours awake, will save DC 25, ability damage (-1 str, dex, and con)

As this pattern shows each 12 hr. period after the first the DC increases by 1/previous 12 hr. period. If you make the save you don't fall asleep, but may still take ability damage. At 36 hrs. you take ability damage first it is 1 from each mental ability score then 1 from each physical ability score next 12 hr. period and they will continue to alternate every 12 hrs. This ability damage does not heal until you sleep for 9 strait hours.

A variant rule for this rule would be to temporarily reduce sanity by 1 each 12 hr. period after the first I have had hallucinations and delusions from staying awake more than 6 days, but this is only if the sanity rules from UA are used.

Now I completely changed the original workings of this rule in progress, it is more complex now, but is it better mechanically?

[Steward]

What of a mechanic that lowers the save DC against sleep spells if you're well-rested and increases it if you're already tired?

[Azoth]

Oh I could see fort saves every couple of hours past the 36hr mark. I have become violently ill from sleep deprivation combined with working 20hr shifts for 6 days straight. They symptoms began to set in on day three and by day 6 i had to be sent home due to vomiting, disorientation, vertigo, mild audiotory hallucinations, and micro napping while trying to run with liquor bottles to the bar.

[Veklim]

If you're fit and healthy, the human body only needs 4 hours sleep a night to function perfectly well. Insomnia troubles have led me to realise the human body will cope with 36-48 hours without sleep pretty damned well, but starts falling down rather rapidly after that. I'd say the 3rd day gives you fatigue, into exhaustion after 12 hours, then you need to make saves to avoid paranoia/temporary insanity every hour afterwards. If you're looking for realismanyhow...?

[NeoSeraphi]

If you're fit and healthy, the human body only needs 4 hours sleep a night to function perfectly well. Insomnia troubles have led me to realise the human body will cope with 36-48 hours without sleep pretty damned well, but starts falling down rather rapidly after that. I'd say the 3rd day gives you fatigue, into exhaustion after 12 hours, then you need to make saves to avoid paranoia/temporary insanity every hour afterwards. If you're looking for realismanyhow...?

I'm looking for a cross between realism and balance. The point is to make players roleplay their limits, and in my experience (I'm not an insomniac), it's extremely difficult for me to even go 24 hours without falling asleep (though I'm fine with 4-8 hours of sleep per night), especially not without some kind of caffeine or other "upper" to keep me awake. When I do use something like that, my body functions pretty well the second day, but around 12 hours into it I start to feel serious drags on my body, I would call that approximately the penalty instilled by the fatigue condition.

I've only gone once without sleeping for two days in my entire life, and that third day I was plain wiped. I couldn't do anything, and when I got home from work I hit the bed and I was out cold.

So...yeah. From my own experiences, I think my penalties are pretty accurate. Perhaps since the insomniac is forced to adapt, his/her body is able to deal with less sleep accordingly, after years of that?

[Dr.Orpheus]

On that note there should be a trait characters can take that allows you to spend twice the normal about of time awake with out penalties or saves at the cost of your alertness and memory. This could represent being insomniatic for all those characters that would like to be above the average in this department.

[NeoSeraphi]

On that note there should be a trait characters can take that allows you to spend twice the normal about of time awake with out penalties or saves at the cost of your alertness and memory. This could represent being insomniatic for all those characters that would like to be above the average in this department.

That would work, but what would the trade-off be? All traits have some kind of trade-off.

[Dr.Orpheus]

I mentioned a penalty to alertness and memory it could be something like a -1 penalty to spot, listen, and initiative checks as well as a -2 penalty to int checks to remember or memorize long texts or conversations.

[Jodah]

I would post times at 24hrs, 48hrs, and 72hrs rather than capping at 48. You can also make the DC 15 + 1/day + 1/previous check. That makes it so you can shake it off for a few hours but eventually it begins to wear on you...feels more realistic coming from a college perspective.

Example: I can pull an all nighter and take a mentally taxing test, afterwards only get 5 hours of sleep and go into the next day fine, get another half nights sleep and finally slip into exhaustion and unconsciousness the following night (which was basically my past weekend). Sure I was tired (fatigued/exhausted) while doing this, but every now and again (every few hours) I could kick up the notch, shake the cobwebs, and get into life again for a little bit.

Don't know if that makes sense exactly, but the point is I think you are being too harsh on the PCs.

[boomwolf]

Dont know about you guys, but I find the "10 minute workday" much more of a problem then the "24 hours workday"...

I mean...how often DO your players keep up this long, and why?

[NeoSeraphi]

Dont know about you guys, but I find the "10 minute workday" much more of a problem then the "24 hours workday"...

I mean...how often DO your players keep up this long, and why?

Oh, I agree 100 percent. But a request is a request.

[DeAnno]

A character who has not gotten at least 8 hours of sleep in the past 48 hours falls unconscious. The character cannot be revived, but will automatically wake after 12 hours of continuous sleep.


I have done this before without falling unconscious at the 48 hour mark, and I imagine a lot of other people have too. Remember it's really only technically 41 hours of being awake, since that leaves only 7 to be asleep before that. To have my level 20 character with 24 Con be stricken like this seems pretty silly :smallbiggrin:

All of these sleep effects should probably involve Fort saves to negate, possibly of increasing difficulty as time goes on.

[The Mentalist]

Dont know about you guys, but I find the "10 minute workday" much more of a problem then the "24 hours workday"...

I mean...how often DO your players keep up this long, and why?

I have quite a few players that do it, many for role-play purposes but even some higher-op crafters I've had in my games will try and do three craft shifts a day.

Also: THEY'VE TAKEN THE HOBBITS TO ISENGARD! (and other things like that)

[Azoth]

Personally I view chronic insomia as a flaw more than a trait. Sure it has some benefits but seriously I would rather have my sleep than lie there for 3hrs trying pass out only to give up on sleep and just get on with my day.

INSOMNIA: -2 to all CON skill/checks and -1 HP/HD. Your character is unusal in that for one reason or another they can not sleep as easily as others. When you would normally try to rest or sleep roll a d% if the result is less than 75 you do not rest or sleep, and with this lose all the benefits of rest. Except in certain cases (see special). Make a fortitude save every day after the first that you do not sleep (DC= 10+half HD-Con modifier). If you fail this save you are automatically fatigued. If you are already fatigued or fail the save by 5 or more you are exhausted.

SPECIAL: If you are a spell caster roll another d%. If the result is over 50 you may prepair spells normally excluding bonus spells granted by a high ability modifier up to one level below your highest spell level known. If the result is under 50 you may only prepair spells up to two levels lower than you highest level known, and also lose all benefits of bonus spells due to a high ability score.

[Noctis Vigil]

And now, a shameless plug. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226242) These would be crazy useful under this rule set.

As for time limits here, I agree it needs changing to a scaling penalty. The human body can adjust over time to living off as little as two hours of sleep a day, even for very active people. I regularly go as much as four days on no sleep, personally. Yes, it has side effects, but I do not pass out automatically every 48 hours. Furthermore, I have a friend who's a truck driver who willingly admits that pretty much everyone in his line of work needs to be able to go at least that long without sleep just to hit deadlines.

And insomnia isn't a flaw; I don't know how I'd ever get anything done without it, personally. I'd make it a trait that grants bonuses and penalties.

[Wyntonian]

This is an interesting little thing. I kinda like it, it seems reasonable without being crippling. I'd agree, though, that is alchemical items (see: Coffee, various non-tasty energy drinks) can stave off the worst immediate effects of sleep deprivation (well, have an opposite effect so they cancel out), I feel like magic should at least keep you going for a while, even if it hits you harder when it finally does. Thanks for making this, though.

[Story Time]

I'm...not sure about the request for the home-brew, but when I read this the word fatigue seems to be...an...inaccurate focus term. Sleep involves Rapid Eye Movement and this state allows for dreams. Dreaming, we assume for most sapient creatures, is necessary for sanity. So what if some cleric can fill up a character with anti-fatigue energy? Without dreaming that character will slowly lose a stable grasp of the difference between reality, fantasy, and delirium.

Special races like elves might require special rules, but this is what comes to mind when I read this home-brew.

It's pretty good too. :smallsmile: