abjurant armor

[limejuicepowder]

so...... does this ability apply to a single spell besides shield?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Yes, (Greater) Luminous Armor from BoED works with the ability.

[Vizzerdrix]

Souldn't it work with the Protection from <Alignment> line of spells as well? They are abjuration spells and grant an AC bonus, after all.

[RMS Oceanic]

The spell has to grant a shield or armour bonus to AC. Protection from [blah] grants a deflection bonus.

[Siosilvar]

Souldn't it work with the Protection from <Alignment> line of spells as well? They are abjuration spells and grant an AC bonus, after all.

I'm away from that book at the moment, but IIRC it only applies to armor and shield bonuses to AC. The protection line is a deflection bonus.

EDIT: How did I get ninja'd by a boat?

[dextercorvia]

There is another one in SpC that gives a shield bonus -- Night Shield, IIRC.

The designer evidently thought Mage Armor was an abjuration spell, if the sample character is any indication.

[RMS Oceanic]

There is another one in SpC that gives a shield bonus -- Night Shield, IIRC.

The designer evidently thought Mage Armor was an abjuration spell, if the sample character is any indication.

Indeed. That's why I would house rule that (Greater) Mage Armor works with it, because the designer's intent seems to be that.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Nightshield just gives you a bonus to saves, and it blocks Magic Missiles.

Spell Compendium has Ectoplasmic Armor, but it only applies to incorporeal touch attacks, every other type of attack in existence gets to completely ignore it.


Luminous Armor and Greater Luminous Armor from BoED are exactly what you're looking for. They're both extremely good, you can get a Rod of Bodily Restoration (MIC) to fix the Str damage sacrifice, and the additional -4 to opponents' melee attacks they impose is just amazing. You have to be good/exalted (depending on interpretation) to use them, and you have to be able to prepare spells, but it's definitely worth it.

If you're looking for something to boost (Greater) Mage Armor, a dip into Paragnostic Apostle from Complete Champion for their Mind Over Matter ability is probably the only class feature that will help.

Keep in mind, you can technically use Magic Vestment to grant an Enhancement bonus to your current Armor or Shield bonus, even if that's granted by another spell.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Repelling shield (CM) is also affected - it's a third level wiz/sorc spell that's Abjuration [force] and grant a shield bonus.

[dextercorvia]

Repelling shield (CM) is also affected - it's a third level wiz/sorc spell that's Abjuration [force] and grant a shield bonus.

Maybe that is what I was thinking of.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

One of the Dragonlance books also has the Time Shield spell, which is basically a stronger, 2nd level shield spell.

[Khedrac]

Despite the apparent intention being for the ability to work with the Mage Armor spells they specifically errata'd that out.
This does leave the Deflect line of spells from PHB2 as viable options despite their annoying duration.

[Coidzor]

Despite the apparent intention being for the ability to work with the Mage Armor spells they specifically errata'd that out.
This does leave the Deflect line of spells from PHB2 as viable options despite their annoying duration.

Eh? Their duration would pretty much suggest against them being viable last I checked.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Eh? Their duration would pretty much suggest against them being viable last I checked.

They don't get anything added to their duration, but it seems as if they'd get the extra protective bonus - so a CL20 Deflect would nab a cool +15 AC instead of a +10.

[Coidzor]

Maybe I'm misremembering the duration and casting time grossly, but what I remember is that they're immediate actions and so compete directly with your swift action for the next round or use it up on your turn and have a 1 round duration, so you're not even trading an action now for having those actions free later, it's a constant choice and constant drain on spells, even if one is high enough level to afford it, there's other spells that this would preclude that one would either want as a matter of course or depending upon individual build.

Gishes, and casters in general, generally have something else they want to be doing with their swift action other than giving themselves some AC when they've already got things to give themselves miss chances and AC.

[herrhauptmann]

There's a few others, from a few Faerun splat books like Lost Empires of Faerun that all provide shield bonuses, with maybe something else.
The last time I remember this coming up, aside from swift shield, I think only the core shield spell was deemed worthwhile.
At least for shield bonuses.

For armor bonuses: Luminous armor. Mage armor researched as abjuration. And that's about it.

Trying to remember if Scintillating scales was especially useful. (Armor to touch AC. or just natural armor to touch AC?)

[Dusk Eclipse]

Would it be too powerful to house rule Abjurant Armour to apply to any kind of AC bonus if it is supplied by an Abjuration spell.

[herrhauptmann]

Would it be too powerful to house rule Abjurant Armour to apply to any kind of AC bonus if it is supplied by an Abjuration spell.

Probably. At least compared to any other melee character.
Deflection, shield, dodge, luck, morale, sacred/profane, armor...
Someone getting +5AC to each of those, beyond what the spells already provide would be pretty ridiculous.
And what if you've got two different sources of say Dodge bonuses? Dodge bonuses stack (even if others of same type don't), so the abjurant armor bonus would stack for those as well.

[nedz]

It seems to be an oversight, but it could be an editing decision. AC does seem to be a fairly solid class, and +5 AC is reasonably good as it is.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I see, well it is a shame that there are to few spells that work with that; but having too many of everything is the Wizards main problem.

[Coidzor]

Would it be too powerful to house rule Abjurant Armour to apply to any kind of AC bonus if it is supplied by an Abjuration spell.

No, not particularly.

[limejuicepowder]

They don't get anything added to their duration, but it seems as if they'd get the extra protective bonus - so a CL20 Deflect would nab a cool +15 AC instead of a +10.

Sorry, but as the name suggests it's a deflection bonus, not a shield or armor bonus. Even if it was worth it action-wise, it still wouldn't get the bonus from the class. Lame, I know.

The luminous armor is awesome, but the player I'm helping out doesn't want to be wearing glowing armor all the time (I can understand this. I don't care for spells that make the character look too outlandish or ridicules).

[Demon of Death]

The luminous armor is awesome, but the player I'm helping out doesn't want to be wearing glowing armor all the time (I can understand this. I don't care for spells that make the character look too outlandish or ridicules).

If the player has an extra feat, Invisible Spell (http://dndtools.eu/feats/cityscape--53/invisible-spell--1684/) will do just what you want.

[dextercorvia]

Sorry, but as the name suggests it's a deflection bonus, not a shield or armor bonus. Even if it was worth it action-wise, it still wouldn't get the bonus from the class. Lame, I know.

The luminous armor is awesome, but the player I'm helping out doesn't want to be wearing glowing armor all the time (I can understand this. I don't care for spells that make the character look too outlandish or ridicules).

Take invisible spell.

[King Atticus]

I know 'Mage Armor' specifically doesn't work by the book, but I was able to get my DM to houserule that it it works for the duration improvement but not for the AC bonus. It Felt like a fair compromise to me.

[nedz]

I know 'Mage Armor' specifically doesn't work by the book, but I was able to get my DM to houserule that it it works for the duration improvement but not for the AC bonus. It Felt like a fair compromise to me.
But Mage Armour lasts 1 hour/level ?
Did I miss the irony ?:smallbiggrin:

[dextercorvia]

But Mage Armour lasts 1 hour/level ?
Did I miss the irony ?:smallbiggrin:

A free extend is still nice. It saves him 1000gp. It's better than a sharp stick in the eye (or nothing, which is what he would have gotten from RAW).

[Kuulvheysoon]

Sorry, but as the name suggests it's a deflection bonus, not a shield or armor bonus. Even if it was worth it action-wise, it still wouldn't get the bonus from the class. Lame, I know.

*snip*


Funny enough, this isn't the case. While lesser deflect is indeed a deflection bonus, 'regular' deflect, the second level spell that I'm referring to, SPECIFICALLY gives you a shield bonus to AC. It's really weird, to tell you the truth.

[King Atticus]

But Mage Armour lasts 1 hour/level ?
Did I miss the irony ?:smallbiggrin:

Yeah, not so much ironic as this...


A free extend is still nice. It saves him 1000gp. It's better than a sharp stick in the eye (or nothing, which is what he would have gotten from RAW).

With a limited number of spells for it to work with and me not wanting to play an exalted character (seriously...never) to take advantage of Luminous Armor an all day casting of Mage Armor is not too shabby. I wasn't trying to say it's the best option just getting something out of a poorly thought out ability.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

With a limited number of spells for it to work with and me not wanting to play an exalted character (seriously...never) to take advantage of Luminous Armor an all day casting of Mage Armor is not too shabby. I wasn't trying to say it's the best option just getting something out of a poorly thought out ability.

I may be being pedantic, but technically the only language on Page 83 detailing sanctified spell is

Evil characters cannot cast sanctified spells, including ones cast from magic items. So you're free to be any shade of Grey-to-Blinding-Holy-LightTM.

[TheDivineWind]

I always found the description for this class ability confusing. It specifically mentions mage armor, but simultaneously excludes it too. Someone posted that it was post-edited out? Can someone tell me where that is? I'm not familiar with where these post-publication edits occur.

The class is house-ruled here to include mage armor (and greater) during games due to it's mention in the ability text. To be honest it always confused me why a shield was an abjuration spell, but armor was a conjuration spell... They both strike me like they should both be one or the other. Personally they strike me as abjuration spells, but I could see it going either way.

The reason I ask for clarification is because this single ability could make the difference between a ridiculously awesome build and a slightly more complicated, yet still ridiculously awesome build. (Mithral with twilight enhancement from the MIC instead of (greater) mage armor)

[nedz]

Yeah, not so much ironic as this...

With a limited number of spells for it to work with and me not wanting to play an exalted character (seriously...never) to take advantage of Luminous Armor an all day casting of Mage Armor is not too shabby. I wasn't trying to say it's the best option just getting something out of a poorly thought out ability.

I wasn't sure if you were being ironic or not ? Its a fairly small bone to have been thrown.:smallsmile:
AC is a fairly good class even without Mage Armour being included in its features.

[jaybird]

Mage Armor is hour/level, which somehow means it's Conjuration. Doesn't particularly make sense, but then, +18 to AC with two 1st level spells strikes me as...quite good? :smalltongue:

[nedz]

Mage Armor is hour/level, which somehow means it's Conjuration. Doesn't particularly make sense, but then, +18 to AC with two 1st level spells strikes me as...quite good? :smalltongue:

Which is probably why they nerfed it down to +13, which is still a quite good improvement on +8. And you can even quicken the short duration one.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I always found the description for this class ability confusing. It specifically mentions mage armor, but simultaneously excludes it too. Someone posted that it was post-edited out? Can someone tell me where that is? I'm not familiar with where these post-publication edits occur.

The class is house-ruled here to include mage armor (and greater) during games due to it's mention in the ability text. To be honest it always confused me why a shield was an abjuration spell, but armor was a conjuration spell... They both strike me like they should both be one or the other. Personally they strike me as abjuration spells, but I could see it going either way.

The reason I ask for clarification is because this single ability could make the difference between a ridiculously awesome build and a slightly more complicated, yet still ridiculously awesome build. (Mithral with twilight enhancement from the MIC instead of (greater) mage armor)

The main issue here is that the designer of Abjurant Champion made the assumption that Mage Armor was an abjuration spell. It's an easy assumption to make. Abjuration is all about defense, but, by the rules, it's Conjuration (Creation) [Force] because it works against incorporeal, I guess?


Mage Armor is hour/level, which somehow means it's Conjuration. Doesn't particularly make sense, but then, +18 to AC with two 1st level spells strikes me as...quite good? :smalltongue:

I'm assuming you're using Legacy Champion here. I approve.:smalltongue:

[lord_khaine]

The main issue here is that the designer of Abjurant Champion made the assumption that Mage Armor was an abjuration spell. It's an easy assumption to make. Abjuration is all about defense, but, by the rules, it's Conjuration (Creation) [Force] because it works against incorporeal, I guess?


No they didnt, or they would not have errated the mentioning of mage armor away.

[The Random NPC]

Just because someone (who may not have been the designer) errated the mage armor away, does not mean that mage armor was not assumed to be an abjuration spell by the designer.

[nedz]

The main issue here is that the designer of Abjurant Champion made the assumption that Mage Armor was an abjuration spell. It's an easy assumption to make. Abjuration is all about defense, but, by the rules, it's Conjuration (Creation) [Force] because it works against incorporeal, I guess?

I'm assuming you're using Legacy Champion here. I approve.:smalltongue:

I was assuming +4 for the spell and +5 for 5 levels of AC. If applied to Mage Armour and Shield that, well do the maths.

[TheDivineWind]

I suspect it would be more useful to get a mithral twilight chain shirt. No armor penalty, no arcane spell failure, and (fully enchanted) 5 more AC than Mage Armor.

On the other hand, mixing in three levels of Argent Savant grants +2 to force AC (shield, greater mage armor) which allows for a total AC bonus (between the two spells) of +19. With the armor, you get +20, but you spend a great deal more money, and your AC vs. incorporeal is lower.

My build-in-the-works takes the route of:

1 Ranger
4 Fighter
1 Wizard
5 Abjuration Champion

from here, you have the option of going:

10 Eldritch Knight (for BAB 1 short of a full fighter, CL 20, and 8th level spells.) at level 21.

Or...

You could mix in the additional 3 levels of Argent Savant, shield would basically be extended twice for 3min/level (a full hour at CL 20). You would have a much higher bonus against incorporeal attacks, but 1 less AC and only 7th level spells at level 21 (assuming you filled in the rest with Eldritch Knight).

My personal build uses a Guisarme with improved trip/disarm, taking advantage of all the bonuses one gets using a two-handed weapon. My primary tactic is to use superior invisibility to move amongst a group and engage them with a whole mess of tripping. More... capable groups can be engaged with spells, or funneled with force wall and similar battlefield control effects. The feats Short Haft and Arcane Strike allow the character to fully utilize his weapons and spells in combat, dealing massive amounts of damage in a single strike.

I'm sure there are ways to improve, but that's my rough build. Pretty effective in one of a dozen ways throughout the whole progression. The only problem is it requires decent stat rolls for strength, constitution, intelligence, and dex (for obvious reasons). I pulled it off with a STR of 14, CON and INT of 16, and a DEX of 11. Stat boosting items were quite useful in the build. Spells requiring saves are, for obvious reasons, not as useful to this build.

[Coidzor]

I was assuming +4 for the spell and +5 for 5 levels of AC. If applied to Mage Armour and Shield that, well do the maths.

Considering they need the AC and there aren't higher level spells to use instead...

[RMS Oceanic]

Just because someone (who may not have been the designer) errated the mage armor away, does not mean that mage armor was not assumed to be an abjuration spell by the designer.

I think a good question to ask is why is Mage Armor a conjuration spell? From its description to its effect, it screams to be an abjuration spell.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

I think a good question to ask is why is Mage Armor a conjuration spell? From its description to its effect, it screams to be an abjuration spell.

I guess it is just the way you look at it and from that point of view the discussion can go on endlessly. The spell conjures/summons* a defensive** layer of force*** around you.

*Conjuration
**Abjuration
***Evocation

I guess we just have to live with it or houserule it differently if it bothers us. In the case of the abjurant champion, I think it functions just fine with the bonus to shield since for most gishes there is the option of wearing armor or using the luminous armor spells. I am currently playing one with acces to armor (mithral full plate) and his AC is in general through the roof. Given the presence of luminous armor spells, it is no problem to have it apply to mage armor as well. Perhaps it is a bit 'fairer' to the evil and spontaneous gishes.

Having it apply to 'all' armor bonuses is more problematic, I would advice against that, but it would still be a minor problem. Given the fact that your gish is a (n arcane) caster, probably one of the smallest problems :).