Flanking with Mirror Image

[Elric VIII]

There has been an influx of threads concerning the mechanics of illusion, recently. This has got me thinking about some creative uses of illusions and their interactions with the rules. Specifically, flanking with illusions. I'm wondering if there are any rules that support something like this (beyond DM fiat).



Mirror Image
Illusion (Figment)
Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal; see text
Target: You
Duration: 1 min./level (D)

Several illusory duplicates of you pop into being, making it difficult for enemies to know which target to attack. The figments stay near you and disappear when struck.

Mirror image creates 1d4 images plus one image per three caster levels (maximum eight images total). These figments separate from you and remain in a cluster, each within 5 feet of at least one other figment or you. You can move into and through a mirror image. When you and the mirror image separate, observers can’t use vision or hearing to tell which one is you and which the image. The figments may also move through each other. The figments mimic your actions, pretending to cast spells when you cast a spell, drink potions when you drink a potion, levitate when you levitate, and so on.

Enemies attempting to attack you or cast spells at you must select from among indistinguishable targets. Generally, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. Any successful attack against an image destroys it. An image’s AC is 10 + your size modifier + your Dex modifier. Figments seem to react normally to area spells (such as looking like they’re burned or dead after being hit by a fireball).

While moving, you can merge with and split off from figments so that enemies who have learned which image is real are again confounded.

An attacker must be able to see the images to be fooled. If you are invisible or an attacker shuts his or her eyes, the spell has no effect. (Being unable to see carries the same penalties as being blinded.)

Now, as per the emphasized part, it can be assumed that enemied that do not know it is an illusion (maybe they thinks it's some sort of clone spell) or do not know which one is actually you perceive all of the figments as a possible danger.

Assuming you have 8 figments and your enemy is medium, you can completely surround him while maintainging the 5ft max distance between each figment.



So, if the enemy does not know from which direction he must defend, do you gain any combat bonuses?

Are there any figment-style illusions that can generate such a bonus (I know there are Phantasm/Shadow illusions that can do this)?

[Lord Vukodlak]

Logically speaking it should be able to provide a flanking bonus. But the actual rules don't support this because the images don't threaten.
There is an assassin spell called phantom flanker, that accomplishes what your after.

[Jeraa]

Flanking requires you to threaten the area around you. Illusions don't have a threatened area, so can't give flanking bonuses.

Even when fully surrounded by actual creatures, if those creatures are wielding bows, they do not threaten and so don't provide flanking bonuses.

[CheshireCatAW]

But what if the subject believes that the illusion should threaten? It seems to me like they should provide a flanking bonus.

[Elric VIII]

But what if the subject believes that the illusion should threaten? It seems to me like they should provide a flanking bonus.

This was my point. I recall the bonus due to flanking as being described as the flankee having to divide his attention between multiple possible threats. I was wondering if there is a rule to back this.

[skycycle blues]

But what if the subject believes that the illusion should threaten? It seems to me like they should provide a flanking bonus.

By RAW, no. It is as simple as doesn't threaten, doesn't flank.

But as a DM, I would give the flanking bonus without being asked about it. And I think that many DMs would at least consider it if asked because of the creative use of illusions.

[nedz]

Phantom Foe - Level 2 spell from SpC.
The downside is that its one opponent and range touch. This might make it somewhat meh so YMMV

[Dairuga]

Technically, either by DM ruling or somesuch, would an enemy that have no idea where the enemy is, and furthermore, believes to be surrounded, not be counted as flat-footed?

If the enemy is surrounded, it would not be a fair stretch for a DM to conclude that the enemy would be unable to use his dodging capabilities(The Dex modifier to AC), since the attacks could come from anywhere.

In both cases, I suppose it is best to leave it up to the DM, even if it is not supported by RAW.

[Curmudgeon]

It isn't just that the figments don't threaten. There's also the problem that you have no control over where those figments are. Since they move into and through each other (multiple figments per square), there's no way of ensuring that they'll spread out to where they're opposite an enemy while always being within 5' of each other. The guarnteed randomness of the Mirror Image figments is antithetical to any purpose that requires nonrandom positioning.

[Dairuga]

It isn't just that the figments don't threaten. There's also the problem that you have no control over where those figments are. Since they move into and through each other (multiple figments per square), there's no way of ensuring that they'll spread out to where they're opposite an enemy while always being within 5' of each other. The guarnteed randomness of the Mirror Image figments is antithetical to any purpose that requires nonrandom positioning.

That is true. Nowhere in the spell description does it say that you can control the image in any way; only that it mimics you. And where it also says that each image must be within 5 feet of at least another image (Which would make it, by that definition, possible to make a ring of 8 images around an enemy), it says as well that the images appear in a cluster around you. And since you are not given any way of moving them manually, due to them only copying your movement; there is no real way to use this spell to flank, given that it would be, assuming that the figments appear in your adjacent squares, make them reach behind an enemy, unless said enemy is tiny or smaller.

[2xMachina]

Hmm, it could look pretty weird, when you're going toe to toe. Your mirror image is in your opponent's square and moving into and through each other.

[Mirakk]

Here's one for you...


If you have the feat Backstab (DM #340, page 86), do you gain that attack of opportunity when your opponent strikes a mirror image?

"You may make an Attack of Opportunity against an opponent that you flank who attacks a target other than you."


Or does it not count because you're not "flanking" in the technical sense? I know Phantom Foe works for sure, but I'm curious to hear your take on this.

[nedz]

Or does it not count because you're not "flanking" in the technical sense? I know Phantom Foe works for sure, but I'm curious to hear your take on this.
this, I'm afraid
However if you actually had a flank then I don't see why not.

[2xMachina]

The target is you. He just misses :P

[Particle_Man]

Also, if Mirror Image can be used to flank, why not Ghost Sound? Now you have an invisible opponent distracting your target, and invisible people can flank, can't they?

[nedz]

The target is you. He just misses :P

Well its debatable, and so open to interpretation.

My comments were based upon the following interpretation:

The opponent sees 6 identical wizards, he targets one and drops it. If he has Cleave he can target another, if he has Great Cleave then MI is useless.

Same reasoning with Backstab. MI doesn't give you a flank however, you have to set that up in some other way.

[mikau013]

Well its debatable, and so open to interpretation.

My comments were based upon the following interpretation:

The opponent sees 6 identical wizards, he targets one and drops it. If he has Cleave he can target another, if he has Great Cleave then MI is useless.

Same reasoning with Backstab. MI doesn't give you a flank however, you have to set that up in some other way.

A mirror image is a figment, not a creature. Cleave doesn't work on it by RAW.

[Dr_S]

Also, if Mirror Image can be used to flank, why not Ghost Sound? Now you have an invisible opponent distracting your target, and invisible people can flank, can't they?

Actually my DM rules that the enemy must know or believe the attacker to threaten from that direction... i.e. if I cast greater invisibility and move next to my enemy, I don't grant flanking... however if I stab him (which doesn't break greater) he believes me to be in that square unless through perception he is able to tell I'm moving away (we play pathfinder)

So by our rules, ghost sound doesn't work but he does allow silent image to flank (assuming appropriate silent image is made) because the flankee believes they're being attacked from that direction... just because it makes no noise doesn't mean a failed will save will believe it any less.

Of course there is a Pathfinder feat that allows flanking with illusions, my DM and by extension me now that I'm DMing a pathfinder game and agree with him, rule that it's what the enemy would perceive to be the truth because he's going to dodge fake attacks from illusions if he believes them to be real.

[Azoth]

Take the FAQ for what you will, but they do say that if you have cleave or its big brother and destroy a Mirror Image you get your cleave attack on another image/the real target depending on the dice roll to hit. So with that in mind, using them to flank is something I would allow. I mean if Thud cuts your illusion in half and then can cleave you...i dont see why the illusion can't be used to flank