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Goober4473
2012-03-25, 01:15 PM
A character in my Pathfinder game was just reincarnated as a giant spider, and I'm wondering: does anyone know how well spiders can manipulate objects? How specialized of tools would he need to scribe scrolls, for example?

Trufflehound
2012-03-28, 12:36 PM
From what I've seen, spiders usually manipulate objects (insects specifically) using their front four legs and their papillae, and carry objects with their two front legs and papillae. So you'd probably need rather specialized equipment to do much of anything.

I also don't know how good of vision spiders have right in front of their faces. They have excellent long-range vision, but I don't know about close-up.

Lyndworm
2012-03-28, 02:11 PM
Trufflehound is spot-on with the manipulation stuff. It's essentially impossible for them to perform any fine manipulation; it'd be like trying to work with your fists (no grasping allowed).

As for eyesight, it depends on the spider in question. Different families have different specializations, but most have semi-decent vision. Webspinners tend to have poor long-range sight, but are good close-up and have a huge field of vision. Hunting spiders have great sight at long-range and close-up, but have a narrower field of vision. Jumping spiders have the best sight by far, but they also have the narrowest field of vision. There are actually a lot more families, but they get kind of weird outside of those generalizations.

I suggest looking into some Gloves of Man, from savage species. They're gloves that fit over non-hand limbs and give them all the manual dexterity and grasping ability of a human, completely mooting the problem.

Necroticplague
2012-03-28, 03:36 PM
Jumping spiders have the best sight by far, but they also have the narrowest field of vision.



Just to point out, the jumping spiders i know have vision like this:
Each eye has a relatively narrow feild of vision, in the lower double digits of degrees. However, the fact that their eyes are in a circular pattern around their head essentially gives them 360 degree vision (especially since for these spiders, their head is the tallest point on their body, unlike some where the head is the lowest).

And also, the grip they have would be closer to monoprehensile dexterity, like a prehensile tail. They can't wrap their finger around something (they don't have them), but they do have sticky feet that could hold things.A spider's hydraulic muscles, however, would render them incapable of doing anything that would requires using you're fingers (for non-holding) or wrist, so if one wrote, it would be in large, illegable letters. So it could write on large posters, but not small pages (I'm assuming human-sized spider). Now I have this funny image in my head of a spider carrying around a giant bundle of posterboard and paint to talk.

Lyndworm
2012-03-28, 03:48 PM
Just to point out, the jumping spiders i know have vision like this:
Each eye has a relatively narrow feild of vision, in the lower double digits of degrees. However, the fact that their eyes are in a circular pattern around their head essentially gives them 360 degree vision (especially since for these spiders, their head is the tallest point on their body, unlike some where the head is the lowest).
This is 100% true. What I meant was that their focused vision is the narrowest. They can essentially see "from the corner of their eye" in more than a 300 degree field, but jumping spiders need to stare directly at something to really focus on it (spider eyes and heads can't turn like mammals' can), even more so than other spiders. For the purpose of game mechanics, it pretty much makes no difference, though.

Cieyrin
2012-03-29, 09:39 AM
I suggest looking into some Gloves of Man, from savage species. They're gloves that fit over non-hand limbs and give them all the manual dexterity and grasping ability of a human, completely mooting the problem.

Which are also stupidly expensive at 42k. A Hand of the Mage for at will Mage Hand would probably be as effective for writing like scrolls for just 900 gp, provided the quill wasn't magic, in which case you'd need Greater Mage Hand.

Trufflehound
2012-03-29, 12:18 PM
Which are also stupidly expensive at 42k. A Hand of the Mage for at will Mage Hand would probably be as effective for writing like scrolls for just 900 gp, provided the quill wasn't magic, in which case you'd need Greater Mage Hand.

Problem is Hand of the Mage takes up a neck slot, and spiders don't have necks. They have waist slots, and possibly a bunch of limb slots, but that's about it.

The problems that come when your thorax is fused to your head.

Necroticplague
2012-03-29, 01:19 PM
Problem is Hand of the Mage takes up a neck slot, and spiders don't have necks. They have waist slots, and possibly a bunch of limb slots, but that's about it.

The problems that come when your thorax is fused to your head.

Sure spiders have a neck slot, it's the point where their head and abdomen meat eachother. The belt slot is where the legs meet the head. And also, rule technicality, magic slots are magic-related, regardless of our physical body, unless you're one of the few creatures they've specifically explained about otherwise (beholders, dragons, maybe others?) . As long as you can find some way to hang it over yourself, you're good. I actually don't see a RAW reason you can't put a belt and an amulet around the head-abdomen juncture and have them both take effect, since they still use up different magic slots, though being close in physical space (like the opposite of a reason that a human only benefits from two magical rings, despite the physical possibility of wearing 8 rings).

Cieyrin
2012-03-29, 02:08 PM
Sure spiders have a neck slot, it's the point where their head and abdomen meat eachother. The belt slot is where the legs meet the head. And also, rule technicality, magic slots are magic-related, regardless of our physical body, unless you're one of the few creatures they've specifically explained about otherwise (beholders, dragons, maybe others?) . As long as you can find some way to hang it over yourself, you're good. I actually don't see a RAW reason you can't put a belt and an amulet around the head-abdomen juncture and have them both take effect, since they still use up different magic slots, though being close in physical space (like the opposite of a reason that a human only benefits from two magical rings, despite the physical possibility of wearing 8 rings).

I would think you'd wrap a belt between the first four and last four legs, with the space between the head and first legs being where the necklace goes.

Trufflehound
2012-03-29, 03:20 PM
Do you have any way of talking to the rest of the party, or do they have to figure all this out for themselves?

Necroticplague
2012-03-29, 04:40 PM
Do you have any way of talking to the rest of the party, or do they have to figure all this out for themselves?

Nope, no talking for them, they lack the mouth required. They don't have a mouth like we do, they suck food through their fangs. In addition, several species of spiders lack lungs, respiring purely through the use of trachea (essentially holes in their abdomen air can come in through). Even those that do have lungs have no windpipe, and their lungs are nowhere near close to their mouths. Though, i could imagine combination trachea and lung respiration could mean a spider could make a series of whistling noises by shoving air through holes in it, it would not be anywhere close to speech, at best you would have a form of Morse code based on hearing whistling noises (or maybe sounding like a recorder of it could control which trachea its using, and phrasing certain notes to simple meanings, so repeated messages could be made through memorized songs).

ZeroNumerous
2012-03-29, 04:49 PM
A character in my Pathfinder game was just reincarnated as a giant spider, and I'm wondering: does anyone know how well spiders can manipulate objects? How specialized of tools would he need to scribe scrolls, for example?

Is there anything stopping you from reincarnating again? Alternatively: Find a way to polymorph into a humanoid.

Lyndworm
2012-03-29, 05:56 PM
Nope, no talking for them, they lack the mouth required. They don't have a mouth like we do, they suck food through their fangs. In addition, several species of spiders lack lungs, respiring purely through the use of trachea (essentially holes in their abdomen air can come in through). Even those that do have lungs have no windpipe, and their lungs are nowhere near close to their mouths. Though, i could imagine combination trachea and lung respiration could mean a spider could make a series of whistling noises by shoving air through holes in it, it would not be anywhere close to speech, at best you would have a form of Morse code based on hearing whistling noises (or maybe sounding like a recorder of it could control which trachea its using, and phrasing certain notes to simple meanings, so repeated messages could be made through memorized songs).
Another option for audible communication would be stridulation. Unlike spiracle-whistling suggested, there are quite a few spiders known to stridulate already.

Cieyrin
2012-03-29, 08:19 PM
Another option for audible communication would be stridulation. Unlike spiracle-whistling suggested, there are quite a few spiders known to stridulate already.

It would be in line with many of the intelligent insectile races out there. Alternatively, since this Giant Spider seems to be a caster, pursuing a level of Mindbender for telepathy or just going with Message or other alternate communication could do just as well.

Trufflehound
2012-03-29, 09:22 PM
It would be in line with many of the intelligent insectile races out there. Alternatively, since this Giant Spider seems to be a caster, pursuing a level of Mindbender for telepathy or just going with Message or other alternate communication could do just as well.

After it takes Natural Spell, that is. Could be a level or two.

Beleriphon
2012-03-29, 09:52 PM
For communication is there anything stopping you using a leg to write in dirt or sand?

Necroticplague
2012-03-30, 06:47 AM
Looking through the pathfinder bestiary, there are quite a bit of different types of giant spider, could you try specifying which one?Even the generic "giant spider" has two varieties: hunting and web-spinning. That could help us see what we're dealing with, and maybe provide a real-life equivalent.

Skaven
2012-03-30, 06:56 AM
Is shapeshifting an option? i.e find a mage or a couple scrolls and get a doublecast of polymorph any object.

What kind of money are we looking at as an option?

Cieyrin
2012-03-30, 12:15 PM
After it takes Natural Spell, that is. Could be a level or two.

Doesn't actually work, unfortunately, as Natural Spell and Wild Speech both require Wild Shape. You want Surrogate Spellcasting from Savage Species, which does exactly what Natural Spell does for non-druids in non-casting compatible forms.

Goober4473
2012-03-30, 02:08 PM
I'm the GM, as a note for everyone.


A Hand of the Mage for at will Mage Hand would probably be as effective for writing like scrolls

As far as I can tell, Mage Hand doesn't allow fine manipulation. Just movement. This seems like the same issue as using a clunky spdier leg for writing.


Do you have any way of talking to the rest of the party, or do they have to figure all this out for themselves?

The character is also a half-dragon, in addition to being a giant spider, and I've ruled that lets him (now her) speak. I'd be lenient about it allowing a little bit more grasping ability, but I want to mostly stick to what a spider could do.


Is there anything stopping you from reincarnating again? Alternatively: Find a way to polymorph into a humanoid.

This is an E6 campaign, so reincarnation is already epic magic, available only through an artifact staff that doesn't work perfectly. Plus, he'd probably just come back as something even less useful.


Looking through the pathfinder bestiary, there are quite a bit of different types of giant spider, could you try specifying which one?Even the generic "giant spider" has two varieties: hunting and web-spinning. That could help us see what we're dealing with, and maybe provide a real-life equivalent.

Generic hunting spider.


Is shapeshifting an option?

Shapeshifting is a possibility, though permenent is probably out of the question.

Skaven
2012-03-30, 04:02 PM
How about the development of a new spell, basically a level bumped mage hand that allows fine manipulation?

Trufflehound
2012-03-30, 04:23 PM
Couldn't you always have an Unseen Servant take dictation? :smalltongue:

Ravens_cry
2012-03-30, 04:37 PM
Doesn't actually work, unfortunately, as Natural Spell and Wild Speech both require Wild Shape. You want Surrogate Spellcasting from Savage Species, which does exactly what Natural Spell does for non-druids in non-casting compatible forms.
Sounds like a good fit.
For more mundane actions, one idea is to grant said spider Non-Dexterous (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?569049-What-the-hell-Paizo), perhaps as a feat or simply as a racial trait.
No, I am not trolling, I am serious.

Cieyrin
2012-03-30, 04:46 PM
Sounds like a good fit.
For more mundane actions, one idea is to grant said spider Non-Dexterous (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?569049-What-the-hell-Paizo), perhaps as a feat or simply as a racial trait.
No, I am not trolling, I am serious.

Looks like a nice fit, though replace hooves with spider legs as needed, obviously. :smallwink:

Ravens_cry
2012-03-30, 05:16 PM
Looks like a nice fit, though replace hooves with spider legs as needed, obviously. :smallwink:
Obviously.:smallsmile:

Hazzardevil
2012-04-02, 09:04 AM
There's a necklace/collar that lets you have at-will unseen servant, so you could have it write in the ground messages to the party.

Cieyrin
2012-04-02, 09:17 AM
There's a necklace/collar that lets you have at-will unseen servant, so you could have it write in the ground messages to the party.

Ah yes, a Collar of Perpetual Attention (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c), the April Fool's article that turned out to be fairly useful in actuality.

Hazzardevil
2012-04-02, 09:38 AM
Ah yes, a Collar of Perpetual Attention (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c), the April Fool's article that turned out to be fairly useful in actuality.

Rather Ironic that someone needed it during April Fool's another year.

Goober4473
2012-04-02, 02:40 PM
Couldn't you always have an Unseen Servant take dictation?

For mundane writing, sure. I don't think that would work for writing magical scrolls though.


There's a necklace/collar that lets you have at-will unseen servant, so you could have it write in the ground messages to the party.

The character can speak just fine.

Hazzardevil
2012-04-02, 03:42 PM
For mundane writing, sure. I don't think that would work for writing magical scrolls though.



The character can speak just fine.

Unseen servant can do anything a level 1 commoner can do, so as long as it doesn't try to fight, it can do anything you want for you.

Goober4473
2012-04-05, 05:04 PM
Unseen servant can do anything a level 1 commoner can do, so as long as it doesn't try to fight, it can do anything you want for you.

However a level 1 commoner does not have Scribe Scroll. I would require the scribe to also be the enchanter.

Necroticplague
2012-04-05, 08:06 PM
However a level 1 commoner does not have Scribe Scroll. I would require the scribe to also be the enchanter.

It's called cooperative crafting rules, my friend (the same thing that allows for archiver awesomeness). The spider provides the feat, and the spell needed, and maybe the XP needed, while the commoner acts as the crafter.