Negative AC build.

[Sir_Chivalry]

Does anyone have suggestions on how to do it?

So far I've got the Ronin, Frenzied Berserker and Warchanter classes. Those along with Shock Trooper, Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit should make something useful. Anyone have suggestions on how to go about building this?

[Flickerdart]

I believe the lowest possible AC is...-66 or so?

[Lonely Tylenol]

Think big.

[Heliomance]

There was a build that did exactly this, using attacks of opportunity and vampiric healing to be able to go toe-to-toe with the Tarrasque and win. It was called The Masochist (hit me please), but sadly it appears to have been lost to the Great Gleemax Purge.

[Sir_Chivalry]

I'm trying to recreate that very build. Is there any way to incorporate all those into one character, or is it better to have a ronin frenzied berserker with a warchanter ally?

[Aurenthal]

Turning yourself into a fanatic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#diplomacy)?

[kulosle]

Does anyone have suggestions on how to do it?

So far I've got the Ronin, Frenzied Berserker and Warchanter classes. Those along with Shock Trooper, Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit should make something useful. Anyone have suggestions on how to go about building this?

Either Karmic strike or robilar's gambit give you opponent a bonus to hit not actually an ac penalty, if that makes any difference to you. If you're going for the Masochist build I'd suggest not going with the charging one's because they're only temporarily and in my opinion, running around doesn't really fit the feel, i always imagine the build standing there and taking a lot of hits. Usually the idea is to get as large as you can get and rage.

[SilverSavio]

Using NeoSeraphi Brawler you can drop a fair distance into the negatives.

[Venger]

Either Karmic strike or robilar's gambit give you opponent a bonus to hit not actually an ac penalty, if that makes any difference to you. If you're going for the Masochist build I'd suggest not going with the charging one's because they're only temporarily and in my opinion, running around doesn't really fit the feel, i always imagine the build standing there and taking a lot of hits. Usually the idea is to get as large as you can get and rage.

karmic strike gives you a penalty to AC, robilar's gambit gives enemies a bonus to hit.

if flaws are allowed, vulnerable gives -1 to AC, plus a feat. while not wearing armor's not a penalty per se, it does help lower your total AC. odd as it may seem, a pair of bracers of defenselessness lowers your total AC by 5 (untyped too! so it stacks) http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm which is what you want.

remember not to put any ranks in tumble (the temptation will be great since you'll likely be playing a meleeish class) but remember that it can't be used untrained. provoke AoOs and ruin your oponents' day when it's time to hit back.

[Rejusu]

So are you trying to lower your AC? Or the enemies AC?

[Person_Man]

Anything that increases your size (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127732) will decrease your AC.

I hope that you have some method of highly efficient Karmic healing, such as Claws of the Beast + Claws of the Vampire. I would also suggest that you invest heavily in some sort of protection against ranged attacks and/or magic. (Plenty of spells do this, and the Incarnate has a few soulmelds which are amazingly good at it).

[Tectonic Robot]

Hum. Why would one want to lower their AC, if you don't mind me asking?

[Squark]

I believe the principle is that below a certain level, one's AC doesn't actually matter, and since there are a lot of things that boost your other stats at the expense of your AC, you might as well go whole hog and take advantage of them all.

[Sir_Chivalry]

Hum. Why would one want to lower their AC, if you don't mind me asking?

For the effect of, with shock trooper and banzai charge for instance, of getting a -40 to AC for a +80 to damage (+280 with headlong rush, supreme power attack and leap attack), hitting back with robilar's gambit or karmic strike (twice with both), and having a weapon or effect that heals when you hit them.

[Morph Bark]

I believe the principle is that below above a certain level, one's AC doesn't actually matter, and since there are a lot of things that boost your other stats at the expense of your AC, you might as well go whole hog and take advantage of them all.

Fixed that for you. At low levels, when to-hit bonuses are rather low and extra bonuses few and far between, AC counts a lot more, especially since armor and shields increase AC by a lot more than you can get your attack roll up at low levels.

That being said though, it's easily possible to get a touch AC of 60+ with some builds.

[Heliomance]

Fixed that for you. At low levels, when to-hit bonuses are rather low and extra bonuses few and far between, AC counts a lot more, especially since armor and shields increase AC by a lot more than you can get your attack roll up at low levels.

That being said though, it's easily possible to get a touch AC of 60+ with some builds.

He meant below a certain level of AC. It's always possible to get a meaningful AC with enough effort, but as the difference between 15 AC and -30 AC is essentially nil, if you're not going to have good AC you might as well get something for it.

[Caedes]

I have called forth the necromantic powers of the internet and have found the "Masochist (Hit me Please build)" and original post.

Please check the Spoiler for it's goodness. And of course. Credit for this build goes to Stoned Golem of the Wizard's forums circa 2005.

Of course, lowering your AC is a bad thing. That didn't stop the Complete Warrior from including no less than three ways (Banzai Charge, Inspire Recklessness, Shock Trooper) to increase your offensive power at a massive cost to your AC. Now usually a little bit of AC loss (rage, charging) is a necessary evil and can be compensated for. Once your pass a certain point however, you might as well just say "screw it" and go all out. There isn't really a big difference between AC 8 and AC -8 once you get past very low levels, so I figured if you're going to be a sitting duck, there must be a way to turn it into a strength.

The Masochist
(Races of Faerun, Complete Warrior, Book of Exalted Deeds, Unapproachable East, Enemies and Allies)

Barbarian 2/Fighter 4/Frenzied Berserker 10/Warrior Skald 1/War Chanter 3

Worships Illmater obviously

Feats
1st: Intimidating Rage
Fighter 1: Power Attack
3rd: Destructive Rage
Fighter 2: Cleave
Fighter 4: Combat Expertise
6th: Righteous Wrath
9th: Dodge
12th: Weapon Focus
15th: Karmic Strike
18th: Combat Reflexes

Noteworthy Equipment: +5 Valorous Wrathful Healing weapon of choice, Retributive Amulet, +5 Empyreal armor of choice

Strategy: When you're going into Banzai mode, activate Karmic Strike, switch your armor's bonus to your saves, and Inspire Recklessness on yourself. Frenzy if you want, then Supreme Power Attack your entire BAB, sacrifice your AC to make up the difference, and go kill things.

End result: You'll probably get hit A LOT, but that's okay, at least if it's up to the number of times you can use Combat Reflexes. Whenever you do get hit they take half the damage, plus you get an AoO against them, and you heal half of that. On a charge you can deal a minimum of 80 extra damage, healing 40 for yourself in the process, while normally you do a minimum 40 and heal 20. If you do frenzy, Righteous Wrath should keep you from accidentally turning on your friends, and even if your HP do drop below -10 at some point you can possibly get it back up by killing enough things before frenzy wears off.

Since you're going to get hit anyway, you transfer your Empyreal armor bonus to your saves to better protect against insta-kills, dominations, and everything else. Do it all-out and you should end up with a negative AC, which although stupid, does make sense within the rules. After all, if a 1st-level commoner attacking from prone with a weapon he isn't proficient in and rolling a 2 can end up with a negative to-hit, it makes sense that you could have negative AC too. The sad part is that said commoner could probably hit you.

Of course this only works against physical melee attacks (and partially against melee touches), so it should be used judiciously. Against one-dimensional bruisers or lots of little cannon fodder guys though it can be wild. With a Ring of Freedom of Movement and making the weapon Magical Beast Bane by my calculations you could literally go toe to toe with the Tarrasque and win. It would never miss, but if your Dex was at least 20 you could counter every hit, never miss your counterattacks, and heal more than you were hurt on everything but a critical bite. Combined with your own attacks, the big T should slowly but surely fall if it didn't retreat.
__________________
Rocks fall, everyone dies.

I think I need to change my forum icon now to a necromancer of some type...

EDIT <Avatar Changed>

Have fun!

[Kaeso]

A large sized crusader with robilars gambit maybe? Don't crusaders get stronger the more they're hit?

[Person_Man]

Hum. Why would one want to lower their AC, if you don't mind me asking?

Reasons I know of:

Lowering your AC is a trade-off for other useful stuff. So if you're going to be trading away -20 AC for Shock Trooper, you might as well trade away an addition -20 AC for Reckless Offense.
There are a variety of effects which are triggered when you are hit. Share Pain psionic power, Shield Self from the Dahlver-Nar Vestige, Karmic Strike, Furious Counterstrike, and a few others. If you are hit more, then those abilities trigger more often.
Getting hit a lot can set up a number of different secondary combos which rely one of the above, such as Claws of the Vampire or Stormguard Warrior or attacking yourself (with a low AC) after you've been linked to an enemy (with fewer hit points then you) via Share Pain or Shield Self.
If you're not using any of the above combos (which some DMs hate, because they feel so "gamey" and run counter to "reasonable" role-playing), from a metagame perspective it's often better for your character to have a mediocre/decent AC (and really high hit points and/or efficient healing and/or other ability to absorb being hit) compared to having high AC (and/or a high miss chance). If enemies can reasonably hit you, then the DM doesn't feel the need to specifically target you. But if you're playing an "unhittable" tank, then the DM is more likely to create boss enemies with abilities that will specifically challenge you, and that enemy is a lot more likely to kill you then mooks.

[kulosle]

Something I forgot to mention is that every one of these builds need reliable ways to repeatedly get out of grapples in the same round by either having a high enough str and other bonuses to grapple or fun items to teleport away. If you get grappled then you're dead.

[Aurenthal]

Something I forgot to mention is that every one of these builds need reliable ways to repeatedly get out of grapples in the same round by either having a high enough str and other bonuses to grapple or fun items to teleport away. If you get grappled then you're dead.

Or tripped! Being prone is possibly the worst thing that could happen to this build.

[Voyager_I]

He meant below a certain level of AC. It's always possible to get a meaningful AC with enough effort, but as the difference between 15 AC and -30 AC is essentially nil, if you're not going to have good AC you might as well get something for it.

You should keep in mind, however, that there is a difference between getting hit by every attack and getting hit by every attack from an enemy power attacking at -20.

[Phaederkiel]

prone means -4 to hit, does it not? its not as if it is absolutely impossible to hit with that...

and most beasties that try to grapple such a character need to make an attack beforehand, do the not? which normaly means they are dead when they start to grapple...

the Warblade has two good contributions: a) a stance with -2 to ac and plus 1d6 dmg (its good at first lvl, at least:), and a maneuver that makes an attack roll instead of ac. Which is pretty much bound to be better than your ac of 5.

Ring of arming is nice,too. allows you to change into the WORKING iron suit, if things start to hit too often.

[Phaederkiel]

oh and there is this nice feat, elusive target, which denies your dodge bonus its power attack...(among other, even better functions)

[Person_Man]

Or tripped! Being prone is possibly the worst thing that could happen to this build.

Back on Your Feet Skill Trick (requires minor Skill point investment): You can stand from being Prone as an Immediate Action that does not provoke an Attack of Opportunity. Requires 12 ranks in Tumble. Comp Scoundrel.

Free Stand: With a DC 35 Tumble check result, you can stand up from prone as a free action (instead of as a move action). This use of the skill still provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. Complete Adventurer.

Combat Acrobat feat: If you make a DC 20 Balance check to negate being knocked Prone, and/or a DC 15 check to ignore up to 4 squares of difficult terrain. Requires 9 ranks in Balance, 2 ranks in Tumble. PHBII pg 76.

Combat Focus + Combat Vigor + Combat Stability feats: +4 Will Saves, +8 to resist being Tripped, Bull Rushed, Grappled, Disarmed, or Overrun, and Fast Healing 4. Requires +9 BAB and Wis 13. PHBII pg 87.