Naginata and Warfans: Help?

[MesiDoomstalker]

Me and a friend were recently discussing back up characters for a campaign we are in. Both of our back up characters are girls (and we are guys) and we started discussing weapons. My friend said his character would be using a Naginata (she's a warrior-geisha thing), while mine would be using battle fans. A quick search through the compendium shows nothing by those names exist in a source book. My question, what existing weapons can be refluffed as a Naginata or a War Fan or how should I go about building them?

I believe something could be reasonably refluffed as a Naginata (essentially a shortsword stuck onto a polearm), but a War Fan I doubt anything would translate easily. Possibly a Dagger, but I don't know.

For reference, these (http://images.wikia.com/codelyoko/images/d/d5/Yu_pose.jpg) are what I refer to as war fans. Either the tines or the edge are hardened and sharp enough to slice and the possibility to throw them.

[NecroRebel]

A naginata is a polearm with a somewhat-curved blade intending for slashing. A glaive is a polearm with a somewhat-curved blade intended for slashing. Glaives have stats, and are easily refluffed to be a naginata.

War fans are slightly more difficult. I'd probably go with katars' stats; exotic edged weapons that require special training to use, small enough to be used in the off-hand reasonably well, and that could perform surprisingly damaging wounds if placed well. Both war fans and katars fit that description.

[MesiDoomstalker]

A naginata is a polearm with a somewhat-curved blade intending for slashing. A glaive is a polearm with a somewhat-curved blade intended for slashing. Glaives have stats, and are easily refluffed to be a naginata.

War fans are slightly more difficult. I'd probably go with katars' stats; exotic edged weapons that require special training to use, small enough to be used in the off-hand reasonably well, and that could perform surprisingly damaging wounds if placed well. Both war fans and katars fit that description.

Would it be OP to throw "Light Thrown" property onto Katar, call it a War Fan and call it a day?

[Tegu8788]

A Katar would never be thrown if possible, and while I'm no expert, I don't see a fan being thrown effectively. That sounds like a question for your DM.

[MesiDoomstalker]

A Katar would never be thrown if possible, and while I'm no expert, I don't see a fan being thrown effectively. That sounds like a question for your DM.

I'm assuming you've never seen Code Lyoko. The image I linked is of Yumi Ishiyama, who in the show uses the fans as close range and short range weapons. She throws them and they act somewhat like boomerangs. When thrown, the fans spread out fully so they are a circle instead of partial circles of regular hand fans. They could be balanced and counterweighted in a similar fashion as daggers are to be able to be thrown. Or when fully spread in a circle work like a deadly frisbee. Though the boomerang-like returning feature kinda stumps me. That doesn't matter too much as my group houserules that magic items insta-return to your hands if you throw them as an attack, including those that aren't thrown weapons (they become improvised thrown weapons at that point).

[Tegu8788]

I've seen some, but I was considering non digital weapons. A thrown fan flails. Counterweighing it for thrown balance could effect melee balance, and the issue of where that extra spreading comes from.

Then again, a wizard did it.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I've seen some, but I was considering non digital weapons. A thrown fan flails. Counterweighing it for thrown balance could effect melee balance, and the issue of where that extra spreading comes from.

Then again, a wizard did it.

A normal hand fan is made of wood for the base and tines and paper for the fan part. A war fan would use steel or iron as the base and tines and possibly thin sheets as the fan part. Honestly I don't know what the fan part would be, paper would shred really quickly, steel sheets would be unnecisarily heavy. Aluminimum maybe? I digress. A warfan would be conisderably heavier on the spread out top then the lower part where gripped. That lower area where the user would grip the fans would have to be counterbalanced already to maintain proper balance. I don't see how being balanced to be able to be thrown like a frisbee would throw off balance if the rotation point is the same as the point of balance when wielded in the hand.

But, yes, a wizard did indeed do it. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Tessen's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_fan#Types_of_Japanese_war_fans) are confirmed to be used as throwing weapons.

[NecroRebel]

Would it be OP to throw "Light Thrown" property onto Katar, call it a War Fan and call it a day?

Probably not, but war fans wouldn't really be effective thrown weapons. Remember, even in the show that you're referencing the character's ability to throw her fans is explicitly a special ability due to the virtual nature of where they are used. Basically, that's a magic-weapon effect, not an inherent property of the weapon class.

Also remember that these are folding weapons, so they probably wouldn't be stiff enough to be effective when thrown. You're already commenting, "a wizard did it," so why are you wanting mundane war fans that can be thrown? I'm quite sure that I saw a magic weapon property that added a throwing ability somewhere, though I can't seem to find it now. Throwing a weapon that isn't suitable for it is magical.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Probably not, but war fans wouldn't really be effective thrown weapons. Remember, even in the show that you're referencing the character's ability to throw her fans is explicitly a special ability due to the virtual nature of where they are used. Basically, that's a magic-weapon effect, not an inherent property of the weapon class.

Also remember that these are folding weapons, so they probably wouldn't be stiff enough to be effective when thrown. You're already commenting, "a wizard did it," so why are you wanting mundane war fans that can be thrown? I'm quite sure that I saw a magic weapon property that added a throwing ability somewhere, though I can't seem to find it now. Throwing a weapon that isn't suitable for it is magical.

Except the real life weapon I'm basing this off of was historically used as a thrown weapon, though it was only used as such in an emergency. Because throwing your weapon meant you had no weapon any more. Not an issue in a game where magic weapons auto-return (as in the games I play), but its still a property the real life weapon had.

The rotation of the throw would keep the spokes faned out. It doesn't have to be stiff, just use the centripetal motion to hold it out.

And my comment about a wizard was a joke, because a wizard always does it.

[NecroRebel]

Yeah, I saw the link that referred to fans being used as thrown weapons after posting.

Also, it's not so much a question of what happens in the air, but when it strikes the target that concerns me. I'd think that in order to fold properly when intended to, the fan's blade segments would have to be as thin as one of those metal "playing card shuriken" things you see sometimes. Those are just too lightweight to deal any damage when thrown, and my guess would be that war fans would be similar, since they'd have more weight but a bigger contact area. Oh well, I guess shuriken are weapons ingame anyway, so if you want to make war fans a throwing weapon, do so.

[Tegu8788]

Thrown property tends to be restricted to weapons that have more than a last ditch purpose. A heavy shield or orb could be thrown in a last ditch effort, but do not deserve an thrown stats. If you wanted to throw such a weapon, I'd try some kind of acrobatics skill check. I don't suppose you'd expect to get a shield bonus against ranged weapons or a +1 to swim speed, would you?

From a more conservative perspective, and someone that messes around with physics and various weaponry, I'd be happy that light thrown weapons are allowed in combat period. Flavor is great, but hitting a moving target with the point bit, in an area that isn't covered in armor, is very difficult. I'd be less inclined to use the fan as a thrown weapon as a distraction, giving a circumstantial to-hit bonus.

But then again, I'm not your DM, and I'm quite glad of that, because my love of physics makes "a wizard did it" make me cringe. Unless the character build is one that works based on a thrown and held weapon pair, having the fan be throwable normally doesn't sound very useful, or needed. Daggers are easy enough to get.

[Vknight]

I'd use the shuriken actually or the Chatkcha(Dark Sun), or the Cutting Wheel(Hero's of the Fallen Lands)

I see the shuriken for light weight fans
Chatkcha for what more realistic fans would be.
And the Cutting Wheel as what makes the most sense considering the concept among other things

[Loren]

truthfully, the rules have little relation to real life. The balance of numbers are more of a gamist element to privide options more than anything else. Therefore you could easily pick any light thrown blade that has the mechanical balance you like, call it a tessen, and move on.

[DefKab]

Honestly, if I was DMing, and a character of mine wanted Warfans, the decision is super easy.
1d6 damage, Light blade, off hand, and gives a bonus to thievery when concealing the fan. +3 proficiency bonus. Tada...

Now, about the throwing. You can throw every weapon, by taking the rules into heart. When you throw a weapon, you lose the proficiency bonus, and the damage goes to 'improvised weapon' category. Which I beleive is 1d4, representing the flimsy folding fanny action.

Would this please everyone?
Nah... Probably not.
But I do believe its a fair ruling.

[hamishspence]

Sandstorm has rules for a war fan.

[WickerNipple]

A war fan would use steel or iron as the base and tines and possibly thin sheets as the fan part. Honestly I don't know what the fan part would be, paper would shred really quickly, steel sheets would be unnecisarily heavy. Aluminimum maybe? I digress.

Most Tessen didn't "open". The actual historical examples we have are largely metal clubs shaped to look like a closed fan. Since you're on that page anyway I see all wiki's examples agree with this.

The open metal razor fan thing is almost entirely anachronism or western/anime inspired. I can't imagine how they'd actually hold up in combat. I'd wager they wouldn't at all.

But ~ this is a fantasy setting so cool is cool. If you're looking for a real Tessen I'd say it should simply be stated as a club. I might pick kukri for the anime version: it looks decapatingly critty, and I can't imagine it would be a big deal to anyone to add Light Thrown to the features list.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Most Tessen didn't "open". The actual historical examples we have are largely metal clubs shaped to look like a closed fan. Since you're on that page anyway I see all wiki's examples agree with this.

The open metal razor fan thing is almost entirely anachronism or western/anime inspired. I can't imagine how they'd actually hold up in combat. I'd wager they wouldn't at all.

But ~ this is a fantasy setting so cool is cool. If you're looking for a real Tessen I'd say it should simply be stated as a club. I might pick kukri for the anime version: it looks decapatingly critty, and I can't imagine it would be a big deal to anyone to add Light Thrown to the features list.

On that note, I must make them Vorpal at the earliest possible convience.

[Mando Knight]

I might pick kukri for the anime version: it looks decapatingly critty, and I can't imagine it would be a big deal to anyone to add Light Thrown to the features list.

It would probably fit better with Heavy Thrown, actually. (The Drow Long Knife is an existing thrown Heavy Blade, though it lacks the High Crit ability)

[cupkeyk]

Warfans are not thrown weapons in history at all. You can use a parrying dagger's stats but of the club group with a +2 thievery to being concealed.

[Yakk]

Here is an attempt at a "cool" anime-inspired Warfan:

Warfan: Superior Light Blade
+3/1d4
Brutal 1, Offhand, Light Thrown (5/10 range)

Balance wise, it is based off of a Drow Long Knife. I downgraded damage from 1d6 (avg 3.5) to 1d4B1 (avg 3.0), and changed it to a light blade, and gave it offhand.

Another way to look at it is that it is a B1 dagger with cooler fluff (which can justify hiding it in situations where you couldn't with a dagger).

As designed, it is a slightly sub-par superior weapon. If you wanted to bump it up to above-par, add in high crit.

(Losing 0.5 damage in exchange for light thrown 5/10 compared to Puchik is a good trade.)

[MesiDoomstalker]

Wow, thanks Yakk. That fits everything thematically and mechanically that I wanted.