Is Bard 1-20 viable?

[danzibr]

In an upcoming campaign I want to play a Bard. We're starting at level 7, pretty much anything is allowed as long as it's not too cheesy. The party has melee covered (REALLY covered), ranged covered, healing covered, but no arcane caster, skill monkey or buffer. Bard please.

Anyways, to make things simpler (and I don't play with any character optimizers) I was just going to go Bard 20, but before making my build I wanted to ask you all: is there a PrC or other class that would substantially help a Bard? Like, something too good to pass up? Please keep in mind I don't want to lose the hybrid caster/skill monkey/buffer. Thanks.

(btw I've read this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870498/The_Bards_Handbook))

[Urpriest]

Sublime Chord is pretty dang nice, and lets you keep your various roles up to speed, particularly if you stir in Virtuoso to keep Inspire Courage up. That said, for a mid-op group Bard 20 is solid.

[Dumbledore lives]

Straight bard is fairly good, but there are a large number of prestige classes for bard that are really cool, such as sublime chord who definitely increases the bards powers, what with 9th level spells and all, you can basically make the sorcerer cry. Others are mostly up to taste, but if you can go into Sublime Chord at 10.

[ScrambledBrains]

As I didn't see it mentioned on the handbook, there is one Prestige class that most Bards would love to take-Sublime Cord, in the Complete Arcane book. It gives access to higher level spells in some fashion(I'm unaware of the specifics.), which are always nice. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: My first time being Swordsaged! :smallsmile: And by Ur-Priest...cool! :smallbiggrin:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

In an upcoming campaign I want to play a Bard. We're starting at level 7, pretty much anything is allowed as long as it's not too cheesy. The party has melee covered (REALLY covered), ranged covered, healing covered, but no arcane caster, skill monkey or buffer. Bard please.

Anyways, to make things simpler (and I don't play with any character optimizers) I was just going to go Bard 20, but before making my build I wanted to ask you all: is there a PrC or other class that would substantially help a Bard? Like, something too good to pass up? Please keep in mind I don't want to lose the hybrid caster/skill monkey/buffer. Thanks.

(btw I've read this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870498/The_Bards_Handbook))

Well, there's one PrC I can think of that would help your arcane casting and thus buffing ability without hurting your skillmonkey shtick too bad. It's called Sublime Chord. It pretty much gives you Sorcerer-esque casting, up to 9th level spells, although you keep your access to Bard spells, and if it appears on both Bard and Sorcerer spell lists, you get to grab the one that is lower level.

[gomipile]

Since your party is melee heavy, consider making your bard's race Silverbrow Human (from Dragon Magic) to qualify for the Dragonfire Inspiration feat(also from Dragon Magic.)

This link has more details: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830

edit:typo

[prufock]

Straight bard is fairly good, but there are a large number of prestige classes for bard that are really cool, such as sublime chord who definitely increases the bards powers, what with 9th level spells and all, you can basically make the sorcerer cry. Others are mostly up to taste, but if you can go into Sublime Chord at 10.

I believe 11 is the earliest you can go into Sublime Chord. It's also a common trick to just take 2 levels of Sublime Chord and go into another caster level progressing PrC.

[Inferno]

In a melee focused party Bard 20 can be hugely useful, especially if focusing on Inspire Courage.Useful info (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869994/Bard_Inspire_Courage_Optimization)

[Coidzor]

Yes, but you'd better have a good reason.

[dextercorvia]

Sublime Chord is awesome, but Bard20 is plenty viable. It's rather front loaded though. Toward the end you'll be like, "oh, an extra X level spell, and another d6 for IC... that's nice."

[Coidzor]

Sublime Chord, Virtuoso, if going into Dragon Magazine material then Heartfire Fanner or even a dip into Druid for levels in Greenwhisperer and an urban companion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) raven.

[Godskook]

1.Yes, Bard 20 is a viable tier 3ish build. You won't have all the answers, but you'll always be loved.

2.Alternatives to Bard are:

-Factotum - Can easily do the skill monkey role, as well as some minor casting.

-Beguiler - 9ths casting and a trapmonkey makes beguiler a canned option to your goals. Can't buff, but will be an arcane caster, tried and true.

-Artificer - Surprisingly from a balance perspective, but Artificers can trapmonkey. Will struggle with being a full-blooded skillmonkey without crafting optimization, but can be a decent substitute for one. Buff and casting are both strong suits here, but struggles in "low-wealth" games.

-Human(Able Learner) Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Daggerspell Mage X/Unseen Seer Y - What I consder to be classic arcane rogue(gish for rogues), this build gives strong skills, 9ths, and some decent class features along the way.

[ericgrau]

Ya but it's hard to pull off. The spellcasting isn't that bad as long as you pick gems like haste. Enchantments aren't as good on spontaneous casters though illusions can be ok. Other options beyond casting to consider are party skillmonkey, 30'+ range whip tripper (with a good strength and potions of enlarge person) and tumbling flanking buddy for the rogue. Melee spells like irresistible dance are also much better on bards than on other casters. Use magic device with a cha focus is handy for getting a 50 different utility scrolls from various classes, and even before you can manage a good UMD you can use utiliy scrolls and wands from the bard list. Like CLW wand healer. Though a super high cha isn't essential for partial casting like a bard's. You probably want at least something in all your other scores.

Common mistakes include attempting a combat focus build, wasting a round on single target +X buffs after the fight has started and putting utility spells as spells known on a spontaneous caster.

Because they get full caster level they also benefit from caster level based effects like magic item crafting, dispelling (though dispelling in general is a secondary option so be careful), mass cure X wounds spells, etc.

[Draz74]

If you decide not to go with Sublime Chord (or some mix including it), one other PrC worth looking at is Lyric Thaumaturge, from Complete Mage.

It continues many features of Bard, but boosts its spellcasting by adding a few extra spell slots and a few Wizard-list Known Spells. Entry is easy, since all Bards should be taking the Melodic Casting feat anyway.

IMO, a build like Bard 14 / Lyric Thaumaturge 6 is significantly better than just Bard 20.

[Talya]

I contend that a properly built Bard-20 is not only viable, but a better "jack of all trades" than the factotum. Not to mention they turn the other melee types into super-damage monsters.

[Yorrin]

Dragonfire Inspiration

This bears repeating/affirming given the mid-op melee-heavy nature of your party. They'll love you for it and your party damage output will be vastly improved.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Coidzor
...if going into Dragon Magazine material then Heartfire Fanner....

Heartfire Fanner seems great on the face of it, what with granting your allies bonus feats and so forth, but I don't see it mentioned very often these days. I can understand this is partly due to Dragon content not always being accepted at the table; but apart from this, is there anything about Heartfire Fanner that would cause any regrets?

[Jack_Simth]

Bard 20 is perfectly viable, depending on the optimization of your party (and even if they're fairly optimized, Dragonfire Inspiration or Words of Creation will still keep you rather viable).

Sublime Chord has been highly recommended in this thread (with good reason - it is most assuredly worthwhile) but it does drop you down to 4+Int Mod skill points per level. As noted, Virtuoso makes a nice addition to fix that (6+Int Mod skill points per level), although if you're attempting to optimize that aspect, you'll want to take your first level dip of Virtuoso for your 10th level, Sublime Chord for level 11, and then Virtuoso for the rest of your career, because Sublime Chord has the casting, but Virtuoso loses a level of spellcasting at level 1.

Mindbender is also great for a 1 level dip somewhere in the build (but no more than that, as it loses spellcasting) for Telepathy, which is a GREAT way to discuss tactics with your companions.

So something like Bard-6/Mindbender-1/Bard+2/Virtuoso-1/Sublime Chord-1/Virtuoso+9 can do some very nice things (and very not-nice things to your opponents). Practiced Spellcaster (Bard) also happens to get your Sublime Chord caster level up to 23 by the end of the build (as Sublime Chord caster level - but not casting progression - stacks with one of your other arcane caster levels).

But it really all depends on what optimization level you want.

[Coidzor]

Heartfire Fanner seems great on the face of it, what with granting your allies bonus feats and so forth, but I don't see it mentioned very often these days. I can understand this is partly due to Dragon content not always being accepted at the table; but apart from this, is there anything about Heartfire Fanner that would cause any regrets?

It's mostly the Dragon Mag the last time it was brought up. And the bit where it lets you be a bard without bard levels. things like that grind people's gears.


I contend that a properly built Bard-20 is not only viable, but a better "jack of all trades" than the factotum. Not to mention they turn the other melee types into super-damage monsters.

As far as I know, they have no inspire courage advantage over sublime chord > Virtuoso builds and certainly do not over heartfire fanner builds with bard entry or with no epic bard progression allowed pre-epic. :smallconfused: I don't know why this keeps getting brought up as a point of advantage of Bard 20 over Bard PrCs that grant or progress IC.

[kulosle]

Bard 20 is a great build, but you'll get bored of it. Bard really gets all it needs rather early on. I really don't see a reason to take more than 9 levels in bard and I don't suggest taking more than 6. Look at the prestige classes, they are pretty fun. Might I also suggest a sorcerer with the Heartfire fanner PrC then going into a bardic PrC. I second the vote for a 1 level dip in mindbender for telepathy and mindsight, it's a must for any arcane caster. And I'd also have to restate the importance of Dragon fire inspiration. Which works better on sorcerer heartfire fanner. You could do the same with prestigious bard but that looses caster levels.

People have stop referencing heartfire fanner becuase it was previously over discussed. Dragon material isn't allowed that much so now people usually only mention it when dragon specifically is allowed. It's a great dip for any arcane caster, even if it's just one level.

[Draz74]

As far as I know, they have no inspire courage advantage over sublime chord > Virtuoso builds and certainly do not over heartfire fanner builds with bard entry or with no epic bard progression allowed pre-epic. :smallconfused: I don't know why this keeps getting brought up as a point of advantage of Bard 20 over Bard PrCs that grant or progress IC.

Virtuoso progresses number of bardic music uses/day, but it doesn't increase your bonus from Inspire Courage like Bard levels 8, 14, and 20 do. (Neither does Sublime Chord, certainly.)

But that's not even the biggest advantage of pure Bard over the PrC options. The juiciest advantage is the continuing progression of Bardic Knack skill bonuses (or Bardic Knowledge, if for some reason you didn't pick up Bardic Knack -- silly you).

There's a few other little tidbits that progress specifically with Bard levels. IIRC, there's a good spell somewhere (Improvisation?) that scales specifically with your Bard level, not your caster level. (I remember making a Chameleon build and being disappointed that I couldn't use the spell effectively by RAW.) If you go for the oft-maligned Fey Variant Bard, your Animal Companion depends on Bard Level (as opposed to e.g. Virtuoso).

All of these contribute to why I think it's worth going up to at least Level 14 or so as a pure Bard.

Bards: The class where you should trade out everything for one Variant or ACF or another, even moreso than Rangers!

[Yora]

Sublime Chord

Quadruple ninjaed! :smallbiggrin:

[Soranar]

The cost for the urban companion is way too high (the way to gain being trading your singing for an animal companion which you trade for an urban companion)

Inspire courage is your best ability

just take obtain familiar instead (only costs a feat) if you really want a pet

if a regular familiar isn't strong enough for your taste, you can invest another feat to get an improved familiar (plenty of options here but the strongest are dragon companions)

A familiar is not a bad choice since they use your skillpoints (you have access to UMD so you could give it a wand and have it cast it in combat)

Bardic knack is not a bad ACF if you have a low INT bard
Savage Bard gives you survival as a skill and high Fort saves (which are far more useful than Reflex)

There are 2 PrC that lets you sing 2 inspire effects at once (inspire courage is great, inspire courage + something else is awesome). The first is Warchanter , I forget the name of the other one. Warchanter also has full BAB if I remember right (you lose a little spellcasting but you can regain it with practiced spellcaster or playing an illumian).

But yeah, a straight bard (with the right feats) is a very decent build.

[Gwendol]

Yes.

And you should get inspire courage as high as you can using: Inspirational boost (level 1 spell from spell compendium), Songs of the Heart (ECS), Badge of Valor (MiC), Dragonfire inspiration (unless considered overly cheesy), Word of Creation (BoED, also could be considered overly cheesy).

[Kaeso]

Straight bard is, IMHO, viable but only under one circumstance: you trade in the fairly useless bardic knowledge for the much better bardic knack (PHB II) and take "jack of all trades" as your first feat. This means you instantly get 1/2 your bard level as ranks in all skills, unless you've taken ranks in them. This allows you to focus on your most important skills while still being able to do the more obscure things fairly decently, like forgery. Let's imagine some dungeon craw situations where a rogue and a bard have to bypass the same obstacles. Imagine that these obstacles are a series of locks, some deadly traps, a steep wall, a chasm and another trap that activates on sound. This would require open lock, trapfinding, climb, jump and move silently (and hide). Only when it comes to trapfinding does the bard get the short end of the stick, while a rogue has to make sure he has invested a decent ammount of ranks in those exact skills which means he can't focus on other, much needed skills. Add in the fact that a bard gets spellcasting up to spell level 6 (which is decent, although it will never make him a sorcerer (unless you take a PrC like sublime chord)), gets inspire courage and can cast in light armor, and you can be a pretty damned good all-round character while the rogue cries in a corner wishing he could be half as useful.

EDIT: I'm sure one of our 3.5 experts could point out a way for bards to get trapfinding :smallwink:

[Socratov]

yeah in your position bardic knack is better, also try to find the eberron campaign setting for other trades for some of the more useless songs (like Song of the heart at lvl 6, it's a druid like thing), trade your countersong etc.

Do take Dragon fire Inspiration, it will give your melee's some extra elemental dice, per hit, (crittable?).

I also second the combining of Sublime chord and virtoso stacking, do take a featslot with chaos music or you will miss out on the last increase in inspire courage.

Your build should look something like: bard8\virtuso 2\sublime chord 2\virtuoso 8

The songs you get by taking virtuoso are better, however you do want the goodie song of arcane power (level 2 SC) and you want the sublime chord's casting (which is bard goes sorc :D), You will crank up your cha to endless heights gaining you a lot of spells, good social skills, a great perform check (try to get a masterwork instrument and make sure you do take a perform oratory on the side (for when your instrument is somehow jammed) so you can always perform. Last but not least, you are the only skillmonkey who has speak language as a class skill, that means you can learn new languages with only 1 skillpoint. Since bardic knack will take care of the more meaningless you will only have to focus on the really important skills, excess skillpoints should be put to good use on languages (saves you 1 spell to take). do mind to take int second and con third. Take with that some healing hymn and presto: you are a partyface, caster of 9ths (including some battlefield control), healer, buffer and still not op ;)

[Talya]

Straight bard is, IMHO, viable but only under one circumstance: you trade in the fairly useless bardic knowledge for the much better bardic knack (PHB II) and take "jack of all trades" as your first feat.


Just to play devil's advocate, as Sublime Chord progresses bardic knowledge, it could also be argued to progress bardic knack.

The question is, do you want to play a sorcerer with fewer spells per day and a few extra tricks? or do you want to play a bard?

Sublime Chord is a straight up power increase, and I certainly love the class. However, the question was, "Is straight bard viable 1-20." It is tier 3 all the way, but with dragonfire inspiration, inspire courage optimization, and ACFs like Bardic Knack, and good spell choices it most certainly hits close to the top of the tier 3. And it's pure style, the whole way.

Not to mention a 4000gp +1 longsword (that is further enchantable) that gets +10 sonic damage even before inspire courage/dragonfire inspiration is factored in.

[Kaeso]

Just to play devil's advocate, as Sublime Chord progresses bardic knowledge, it could also be argued to progress bardic knack.


Good point. If you have a lenient DM that allows that reasoning, your bard will end up being high tier 2, above the sorcerer and favoured soul. If you're really good with your spell selection, it might even end up at the bottom of tier 1.

[Jack_Simth]

Virtuoso progresses number of bardic music uses/day, but it doesn't increase your bonus from Inspire Courage like Bard levels 8, 14, and 20 do. (Neither does Sublime Chord, certainly.)Err... yes it does:

Bardic Music: Virtuoso levels stack with bard levels for the purposes of determining the virtuoso's daily uses of his bardic music abilities (if any) and the value of the bonus granted by inspire courage (if the virtuoso has that bardic music ability). (Bolding original, underlining added)

[Talya]

an old post of mine on creating a melee-focused bard, but most of the advice still applies to any single classed bard.


Don't PrC. Bards are great single-classed.

The exception of course is the Bardadin, which is worth looking at, but that's a whole other story.

Bard Only:
Silverbrow Human is the best race (as you can instantly qualify for Dragonfire Inspiration, and get that bonus feat)
Savage Bard variant from UA is much better even if only for trading Reflex saves for Fort saves.
Swap Bardic Knowledge for Bardic Knack.
Swap Countersong for Spellbreaker Song.
Swap Fascinate for Hymn of Healing (just because)
Swap Suggestion for Song of the Heart (Feat, eberron ACF, but not setting specific)
Take Jack of All Trades (to enable bardic knack across trained-only skills)Snowflake Wardance, Dragonfire Inspiration, and a heritage feat to move you to some sonic dragon. Also consider Martial Study (Devoted Spirt maneuver of your choice - we're going for intimidate as a class skill here) and Doomspeak. If you're going very, very good-aligned, Words of Creation is godlike.
Spell: Inspirational Boost.
Ensure you have a Crystal Echoblade and a Badge of Valor.

Right there, you have a perfect bard. Depending on your DM (and the availability of Flaws), you might consider two crystal echoblades and Two Weapon Fighting. It's a good idea, but the wording of Snowflake Wardance makes some DMs ban it with a second weapon (incorrectly, I believe.)

Somehow, I forgot to mention Melodic Casting.

[danzibr]

Ya but it's hard to pull off. The spellcasting isn't that bad as long as you pick gems like haste. Enchantments aren't as good on spontaneous casters though illusions can be ok. Other options beyond casting to consider are party skillmonkey, 30'+ range whip tripper (with a good strength and potions of enlarge person) and tumbling flanking buddy for the rogue. Melee spells like irresistible dance are also much better on bards than on other casters. Use magic device with a cha focus is handy for getting a 50 different utility scrolls from various classes, and even before you can manage a good UMD you can use utiliy scrolls and wands from the bard list. Like CLW wand healer. Though a super high cha isn't essential for partial casting like a bard's. You probably want at least something in all your other scores.

Common mistakes include attempting a combat focus build, wasting a round on single target +X buffs after the fight has started and putting utility spells as spells known on a spontaneous caster.

Because they get full caster level they also benefit from caster level based effects like magic item crafting, dispelling (though dispelling in general is a secondary option so be careful), mass cure X wounds spells, etc.
I appreciate the advice. I said in the original post that there is no skill monkey, though. I have no rogue buddy.

The question is, do you want to play a sorcerer with fewer spells per day and a few extra tricks? or do you want to play a bard?

[...]And it's pure style, the whole way.[...]
Definitely Bard. And hurrah for pure style :)

[MeeposFire]

Straight bard is fun, stylish, and effective. It is also certianly not boring to play (borig to build since you only have one class sure but that is seriously low on my priority list for something I am actually going to play).

One catch you need to dumpster dive in order to get all the good stuff so be ready to pull out a lot of different books since it seems that nearly every major book (and some of the minor ones) have important bard feats, spells, or abilities.

Since the arcane option has been put forth warchanter from complete warrior also has uses especially its level 10 song and their double song ability. It is for a more warrior oriented bard which means individually less versatile but it does give out significant benefits that really fill the warrior skald theme.

I once made the mistake of making a bard for a friend for a campiagn I was running. I will tell you it is hard to write adventures for a party that gets a +10 to hit and damage at mid levels from just the song of courage (if you pick creatures able to take the hits and not get hit automatically then they end up often being too tough in other ways so it made creating challenges difficult). Long story short-no matter how awesome it is DON"T TAKE THE WORD'S OF CREATION FEAT UNLESS IT IS A GAME OF FAIRLY HIGH OP. It s just too good for what it does (unless you otherwise don't buff IC at all but what fun is that).

[Socratov]

I wouldn't call a sublime chord a sorc, i'd rather call it a bard on brain steroids. Of course the full bard is not bad, but after level 10 you won't get that many goodies from bard alone which isn't fixed with chaos music + SC/Virtuoso.

On the subject the ACF's for bard are usually worth it, yes, even then, the only problem should be gaining some trapfinding (or your barbarian buddy should be able to use it), if you can find some way to gain trapfinding you can spend a few points for disable device and disable it. or you could tae the summonner reserve feat after you have SC casting, and send elementals their way in dungeons (or your barbarian, whichever is more convenient)

[Talya]

oh yes...i forgot.

Wasn't able to use DFI on this build (it didn't fit the custom campaign setting), and, sadly, the DM got banned from the forums before we got very far in, but I desperately want to play this bard somewhere (with appropriate adjustments).

http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=48368

[dextercorvia]

There's a few other little tidbits that progress specifically with Bard levels. IIRC, there's a good spell somewhere (Improvisation?) that scales specifically with your Bard level, not your caster level. (I remember making a Chameleon build and being disappointed that I couldn't use the spell effectively by RAW.) If you go for the oft-maligned Fey Variant Bard, your Animal Companion depends on Bard Level (as opposed to e.g. Virtuoso).


It isn't Improvisation. In both CAdv and SC, Improv scales with CL. I hadn't realized it was originally a 5th level spell, though.

[Socratov]

Straight bard is fun, stylish, and effective. It is also certianly not boring to play (borig to build since you only have one class sure but that is seriously low on my priority list for something I am actually going to play).

One catch you need to dumpster dive in order to get all the good stuff so be ready to pull out a lot of different books since it seems that nearly every major book (and some of the minor ones) have important bard feats, spells, or abilities.

Since the arcane option has been put forth warchanter from complete warrior also has uses especially its level 10 song and their double song ability. It is for a more warrior oriented bard which means individually less versatile but it does give out significant benefits that really fill the warrior skald theme.

I once made the mistake of making a bard for a friend for a campiagn I was running. I will tell you it is hard to write adventures for a party that gets a +10 to hit and damage at mid levels from just the song of courage (if you pick creatures able to take the hits and not get hit automatically then they end up often being too tough in other ways so it made creating challenges difficult). Long story short-no matter how awesome it is DON"T TAKE THE WORD'S OF CREATION FEAT UNLESS IT IS A GAME OF FAIRLY HIGH OP. It s just too good for what it does (unless you otherwise don't buff IC at all but what fun is that).

Words of creation isn't that wrecking, remember, it gives damage to the user 1d4 per perform ranks needed for the effect, every time. Plus, it requires the player to be a goody two-shoes. He will have to act exalted and for example try to negotiate the fight off (remeber to have the DM use the rich Burlew diplo rules, else it won't be interesting at all). Whenever the bard behaves slightly badly you can remind him of this or render the feat obsolete, nice plothook having the player seek redemption...

[Talya]

With most DMs, straight bard only works if you are playing a male character. As a bard, it's your duty to captivate most of the ladies in the kingdom with your suave, flirtatious charm. If you're playing a female, you need to be a gay bard to do this.


Okay, okay. I'm a bad, bad girl.

[Aeryr]

Hey Bisexual Bards (males or females) are kinky and fun. But I tend to do that with an swashbuckler due to it's 4th level class skill. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x

On topic, Bard 20 is viable, and fun. One way of doing it is optimizing inspire courage, so everyone has more fun at combat.

[Talya]

Hey Bisexual Bards (males or females) are kinky and fun. But I tend to do that with an swashbuckler due to it's 4th level class skill. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x

On topic, Bard 20 is viable, and fun. One way of doing it is optimizing inspire courage, so everyone has more fun at combat.

True. But had I commented on that, i'd be trading wordplay for foreplay, and while a good trade, generally, it loses something on text-based forums.

[Aeryr]

Maybe it's just me, but I really like foreplay :smallwink:

Another race that can be considered in that direction is a changeling, they are almost genderless, and can fit in any fantasy.

[Talya]

Maybe it's just me, but I really like foreplay :smallwink:


No, no, not just you. As I said, it just tends to lose something over text based medium.

[kardar233]

Maybe it's just me, but I really like foreplay :smallwink:

As most Bards play lute or similar, I prefer the Long Time (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTFD5DZwK7g) section (starts at 2:30). :smallcool:

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Tayla
*commentary*

To quote Jayne Cobb, I could stand to hear a little more. :smalltongue:

Any reason why the swashbuckler's 4th level skill couldn't be applied to a bard?

[nedz]

I played a 3.0 Bard all the way through (well more like 3.2), and I found the mid levels quite dull. Every combat was like Haste, Music, do something interesting (from a limited choice). I prefer something more active, but you can build a combat orientated Bard or a Sublime Chord if you want more spells.

[Aeryr]

There is no reason for not being able to do "seduction" as a bard, it might file into home ruling territory.

Talya, please excuse my manners, but here in sunny Spain we are all a bunch of flirty bastards, I hope you lost your phone number, just so I can pick that up. :smallcool:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I appreciate the advice. I said in the original post that there is no skill monkey, though. I have no rogue buddy.

Definitely Bard. And hurrah for pure style :)

Sublime Chord can do 99% of the skillmonkey stuff that Bards can do, particularly when you use Virtuoso to advance Sublime Chord casting, which nets you the best of both worlds.

Dragonfire Inspiration is feat-intensive, but can be quite a boon to your party. Particularly with judicious IC optimization (MC Instrument + Badge of Valor + Inspirational Boost + Song of the Heart = +4 to Inspire Courage).

If you absolutely, desperately, need someone who can spot traps, you may wish to take a two level dip in Rogue. Why? Simple... Trapfinding + Evasion. If you don't care about Evasion, then just go Rogue1 dip for Trapfinding and a few extra skill points. Pick up the feat Able Learner, and you'll keep Disable Device and Open Locks as Class Skills.

[kulosle]

Oh how could I forget to mention warweaver. Warweaver is a PrC from (insert name of book that is currently escaping me, someone will know it) and is the reason why, when combined with sublime chord, bards are the best support characters in the game. War weavers store up to 5 spells into a tapestry and can, as a move action, cast all the spells in the tapestry on all her allies.
My favorite first turn goes something like this:
Free action: quickened inspirational boost
Swift action: start singing (preferably two songs, DFI and IC, if you have the ability, this is made possible through the Song of the White Raven feat)
Move action: cast your 5 favorite buff spells
Standard action: the spell that makes your opponents weak to sonic damage(could someone please remind me of what this spell is i swear it exists but i can't find it. You do this because you changed your DFI to sonic damage)
End turn:
Immediate action: Activate Badge of Valor
???
Profit
or more like your entire team profits.

[kardar233]

The spell that makes people weak to sonic damage is Creaking Cacophony, from the Spell Compendium.

War Weaver is from Heroes of Battle.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Straight bard is, IMHO, viable but only under one circumstance: you trade in the fairly useless bardic knowledge for the much better bardic knack (PHB II) and take "jack of all trades" as your first feat. This means you instantly get 1/2 your bard level as ranks in all skills, unless you've taken ranks in them. This allows you to focus on your most important skills while still being able to do the more obscure things fairly decently, like forgery. Let's imagine some dungeon craw situations where a rogue and a bard have to bypass the same obstacles. Imagine that these obstacles are a series of locks, some deadly traps, a steep wall, a chasm and another trap that activates on sound. This would require open lock, trapfinding, climb, jump and move silently (and hide). Only when it comes to trapfinding does the bard get the short end of the stick, while a rogue has to make sure he has invested a decent ammount of ranks in those exact skills which means he can't focus on other, much needed skills. Add in the fact that a bard gets spellcasting up to spell level 6 (which is decent, although it will never make him a sorcerer (unless you take a PrC like sublime chord)), gets inspire courage and can cast in light armor, and you can be a pretty damned good all-round character while the rogue cries in a corner wishing he could be half as useful.

EDIT: I'm sure one of our 3.5 experts could point out a way for bards to get trapfinding :smallwink:

Easiest way that comes to mind without dipping is getting Catalogues of Enlightment at leve 6 and key it to the Kobold Domain :smallbiggrin:

[kulosle]

The spell that makes people weak to sonic damage is Creaking Cacophony, from the Spell Compendium.

War Weaver is from Heroes of Battle.

Ah thank you good sir. I could not for the life of me remember where that spell was. Thank you.

[Metahuman1]

Yes it is. Take Unseen servant as a spell know if it's on your spell list, or alternatively, get an eternal wand of Silence and Extended Unseen servant and have it push a silenced rock around ahead of the party and just trigger the traps, quietly. Take Bardic Knack and get some tools to help with open lock checks and Knowledge checks, and pump your social skill ranks. Pick other solid spells like Haste, Mirrors Image, Invisibility, Grease, Glitter Dust, and you'll be fine at being a secondary caster and quite capable of handling any reasonable skill challenge. Put a few feats int things like Melodic casting and Snowflake Wardance and then get some Things to buff Inspire courage and you'll even be able to help in Melee when needed.

[Flickerdart]

Metamagic Song is a must for all those sexy Bardic Music uses you'll have just lying around. So sexy that you might want to pick up Talfirian Song too, and then Persistent Spell and then you should click the Bardzilla link in my signature and be awesome.

[Mordokai]

With most DMs, straight bard only works if you are playing a male character. As a bard, it's your duty to captivate most of the ladies in the kingdom with your suave, flirtatious charm. If you're playing a female, you need to be a gay bard to do this.


Okay, okay. I'm a bad, bad girl.

Emphasis mine. And you say it like it's a bad thing, which, from what I've seen, is not what you're thinking :smalltongue:

Besides, I prefer myself bisexual. Why limit your options to 50% of choices, when you can have a 100% choice? :smallwink:

[Talya]

Emphasis mine. And you say it like it's a bad thing, which, from what I've seen, is not what you're thinking :smalltongue:

Besides, I prefer myself bisexual. Why limit your options to 50% of choices, when you can have a 100% choice? :smallwink:


You're trisexual? (You'll try anything sexual.) ;)

[Mordokai]

You're trisexual? (You'll try anything sexual.) ;)

Hey, I have some standards, thank you very much!

Like pulse. That's a pretty major one :smalltongue:

[danzibr]

Metamagic Song is a must for all those sexy Bardic Music uses you'll have just lying around. So sexy that you might want to pick up Talfirian Song too, and then Persistent Spell and then you should click the Bardzilla link in my signature and be awesome.
Actually me reading your Bardzilla thing (I have it open in one of my windows at all times now) inspired me to make this post.

[mikethepoor]

Speaking of bard PrC options, has anyone considered 3 levels of stormsinger yet, or are the other choices just better than that?

[eggs]

I like Stormsinger quite a bit, but it isn't cheap, between its feat investments and BA/skill costs. Melodic Casting can make its Electricity songs fun for a Blaster, but that's pretty niche.

It's a fun option, but it's not as clearly beneficial as the staples like Lyric Thaumaturge, Heartfire Fanner, Virtuoso, Sublime Chord. So it's probably actually a better-designed class, but that usually makes it a bit less eyecatching in an optimization context.

[DarthCyberWolf]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see how Silverbrow Human would be useful for Dragonfire Inspiration if you were planning on taking Heritage for a different energy type. Typically you would take Dragontouched to get the dragonblood subtype, so Silverbrow Human does give that to you more easily.

But Draconic Heritage doesn't care about the dragonblood subtype; it requires Sorcerer 1+ (which Dragontouched lets you qualify for!), so how does Silverbrow Human work?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see how Silverbrow Human would be useful for Dragonfire Inspiration if you were planning on taking Heritage for a different energy type. Typically you would take Dragontouched to get the dragonblood subtype, so Silverbrow Human does give that to you more easily.

But Draconic Heritage doesn't care about the dragonblood subtype; it requires Sorcerer 1+ (which Dragontouched lets you qualify for!), so how does Silverbrow Human work?

Because not everyone uses Draconic Heritage for Sonic damage. For those people, it saves a feat on what is certainly a feat-starved build.

Also, you have misquoted Jayne. This is not shiny.

[kulosle]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see how Silverbrow Human would be useful for Dragonfire Inspiration if you were planning on taking Heritage for a different energy type. Typically you would take Dragontouched to get the dragonblood subtype, so Silverbrow Human does give that to you more easily.

But Draconic Heritage doesn't care about the dragonblood subtype; it requires Sorcerer 1+ (which Dragontouched lets you qualify for!), so how does Silverbrow Human work?

Some DMs allow you to change it to cold damage, which isn't that big of a power boost.

[danzibr]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see how Silverbrow Human would be useful for Dragonfire Inspiration if you were planning on taking Heritage for a different energy type. Typically you would take Dragontouched to get the dragonblood subtype, so Silverbrow Human does give that to you more easily.

But Draconic Heritage doesn't care about the dragonblood subtype; it requires Sorcerer 1+ (which Dragontouched lets you qualify for!), so how does Silverbrow Human work?
I was also wondering about all those feats. I'd probably skip the subtype changing.

[dextercorvia]

I was also wondering about all those feats. I'd probably skip the subtype changing.

It's hard to get Dragonfire Inspiration without being Dragonblooded. Keeping it fire damage costs two less feats, and gives the DM an easier time to challenge your party occasionally.

[danzibr]

How worth it is Words of Creation? I started actually putting my build together (currently going to go Bard 20, Silverbrow Human, probably no flaws), but... well, I don't want to be taking a lot of damage, even if it is nonlethal, every time I start singing a song.

On a somewhat related note, for perform I was thinking of doing both opera singing and kabuki. Any suggestions? I'd like to have two, but it would also be nice to have something that can be kept up between battles if need be.

[nedz]

How worth it is Words of Creation? I started actually putting my build together (currently going to go Bard 20, Silverbrow Human, probably no flaws), but... well, I don't want to be taking a lot of damage, even if it is nonlethal, every time I start singing a song.

On a somewhat related note, for perform I was thinking of doing both opera singing and kabuki. Any suggestions? I'd like to have two, but it would also be nice to have something that can be kept up between battles if need be.
Well the Bardic Music bump is nice awesome
And the True Name thingy can also be useful awesome, if your into Planer Bindings etc.

[Coidzor]

How worth it is Words of Creation?

It's a very good bonus even if your DM is the most restrictive as to what it applies to. So it depends on whether you can afford the feat and if you can afford to be Exalted with your DM and character.

[INoKnowNames]

At level 20, you can use a Bardic Music to gain +8 to your Attack and Damage Rolls, or +8d6 Fire Damage. If your Dm is nice, xe might let other sources stack. In my case, I can use Song of the Heart (Feat to gain +1 more IC point), Inspirational Boost (Spell to gain +1 IC point if Bardic Music is used the same round), and a certain Item that's in the MIC to for another +1 IC point, to gain a total of +14 to attack and damage, or +14d6 Fire Damage. Otherwise, it'd be just +11 or 11d6 Fire Damage.

That's certainly not -bad-, to say the least.

Have you guys mentioned Snowflake Wardance? Bardic Music to add your Charisma Mod to your Attack and Damage for as long as your ranks in Perform (Dance), provided you use a Bardic Music and fight with a light load and 1 handed weapons. Provided, say 16 Charisma, with all your future points from leveling up added to Charisma, a +5 Tome for Charisma, and a Cloak of Charisma +6, that's 32 Charisma for a +11 to Attack and Damage.

Which is also pretty good (although Snowflake Wardance makes you fatigued for 10 minutes when it's over, although you should be able to get around that kinda thing at upper levels).

Also, about Silverbrow Human + Dragonfire Inspiration, it says you qualify for it so long as you've got Dragonblood in you, so you at least have that. Damage Type wise, it would be silly for a Silverbrow to do Fire Damage when Silver Dragons do cold, so it wouldn't be too odd, logically, for the Dm to house rule you doing Cold damage instead. Not much of a gamebreaker either. But then again, such a thing would be a house rule, so you gotta ask your Dm, too.

[eggs]

You can get a completely reasonable modifier without Words of Creation (4 base, 1 Inspirational Boost, 1 Badge of valor, 1 Song of the Heart, 1 Masterwork Horn = +8 IC) at the cost of 1 spell known, 1500 gp and either a feat slot or the Suggestion ability. It's pretty front-loaded too, so at level 3, it'd can sit around +5 without any chicanery... with just IC, Knowledge Devotion and a Crystal Echoblade, Bard has the numbers to work as a functional gish.

Words of Creation is only needed if you really want to focus on Inspire Courage. Between the alignment component, stat requirements and damage, I usually just avoid it. One of the biggest attractions of IC optimization is that its components are dirt cheap.

[INoKnowNames]

You can get a completely reasonable modifier without Words of Creation (4 base, 1 Inspirational Boost, 1 Badge of valor, 1 Song of the Heart, 1 Masterwork Horn = +8 IC) at the cost of 1 spell known, 1500 gp and either a feat slot or the Suggestion ability. It's pretty front-loaded too, so at level 3, it'd can sit around +5 without any chicanery... with just IC, Knowledge Devotion and a Crystal Echoblade, Bard has the numbers to work as a functional gish.

Ah, Badge of Valor. Wait, Masterwork Horn gives a +1 to IC as well? Dude, that total for me could go up to +16! Where's that in? And what do you mean about the spell known, 1500 gp and suggestion?

I'm gestalting a Crusader//Bard, and I intend to purchase a second Harmonizing Longsword. I'm actually trying to figure out how much damage I can do...


You're trisexual? (You'll try anything sexual.) ;)

I know I wasn't in on the conversation at this point, but I had to quote this because I lol'ed.

[danzibr]

At level 20, you can use a Bardic Music to gain +8 to your Attack and Damage Rolls, or +8d6 Fire Damage. If your Dm is nice, xe might let other sources stack. In my case, I can use Song of the Heart (Feat to gain +1 more IC point), Inspirational Boost (Spell to gain +1 IC point if Bardic Music is used the same round), and a certain Item that's in the MIC to for another +1 IC point, to gain a total of +14 to attack and damage, or +14d6 Fire Damage. Otherwise, it'd be just +11 or 11d6 Fire Damage.

That's certainly not -bad-, to say the least.

Have you guys mentioned Snowflake Wardance? Bardic Music to add your Charisma Mod to your Attack and Damage for as long as your ranks in Perform (Dance), provided you use a Bardic Music and fight with a light load and 1 handed weapons. Provided, say 16 Charisma, with all your future points from leveling up added to Charisma, a +5 Tome for Charisma, and a Cloak of Charisma +6, that's 32 Charisma for a +11 to Attack and Damage.

Which is also pretty good (although Snowflake Wardance makes you fatigued for 10 minutes when it's over, although you should be able to get around that kinda thing at upper levels).

Also, about Silverbrow Human + Dragonfire Inspiration, it says you qualify for it so long as you've got Dragonblood in you, so you at least have that. Damage Type wise, it would be silly for a Silverbrow to do Fire Damage when Silver Dragons do cold, so it wouldn't be too odd, logically, for the Dm to house rule you doing Cold damage instead. Not much of a gamebreaker either. But then again, such a thing would be a house rule, so you gotta ask your Dm, too.
Thanks, I really like the suggestions.

But hey uhh, did you read the thread before posting?

[INoKnowNames]

Thanks, I really like the suggestions.

But hey uhh, did you read the thread before posting?

Yeah, I have, which is why I didn't say "Sublime Chord". :smalltongue:

Seriously though, I have skimmed it a couple of times, although if I missed anything or did anything wrong, I appologise. I didn't think my two pieces would be bad, even if they're just copper rather than gold.

[eggs]

Snowflake Wardance often makes Bards do lessdamage, due to the Bard's already massive attack bonus and the 1-handed weapon requirement (TWFers are the major exception), and on top of that, it eats Bardic Music uses to activate. I recommend avoiding it when possible and saving the feat slot for something more useful.

[INoKnowNames]

Snowflake Wardance often makes Bards do lessdamage, due to the Bard's already massive attack bonus and the 1-handed weapon requirement (TWFers are the major exception), and on top of that, it eats Bardic Music uses to activate. I recommend avoiding it when possible and saving the feat slot for something more useful.

Are there any other viable ways to fight in melee other than 2 Weapon Fighting and 2 Handed Fighting? :smallconfused:

I've always had bad luck with less than perfect Bab and Power Attacking, and I can't think of another way to 2 Handed Fight not involving Power Attack. I don't see how you're losing with Snowflake Wardance otherwise.

[Talya]

(TWFers are the major exception)



Let's not undersell this. You're getting +10d6 DFI damage, and if you built for it, +10 inspire courage, +10 sonic damage...with every hit. And due to SFWD and Inspire Courage, you're hitting with damn near EVERYTHING...including those offhand last iteratives.

Yes, power attack is nice, but twf is where the snowflake wardancer probably should be looking.

[INoKnowNames]

Let's not undersell this. You're getting +10d6 DFI damage, and if you built for it, +10 inspire courage, +10 sonic damage...with every hit. And due to SFWD and Inspire Courage, you're hitting with damn near EVERYTHING...including those offhand last iteratives.

Yes, power attack is nice, but twf is where the snowflake wardancer probably should be looking.

Hm... maybe I should consider a Harmonizing Dagger instead of Longsword, so I can actually Dual Wield and gain the extra attack with a minimum penalty, rather than using it just as an excuse to go Straight Bard and still have 2 Musics out at Once (with Melodic Casting to help)..... Can't one cast Heroics to officially gain Two Weapon Fighting and have as low a penalty as possible, and use Gloves of the Balanced Hand to get into Improved Two Weapon Fighting?

[eggs]

Ah, Badge of Valor. Wait, Masterwork Horn gives a +1 to IC as well? Dude, that total for me could go up to +16! Where's that in?
It's in Song and Silence, which makes RAW sketchy (Inspire Courage was a flat +1 in 3.0, and 3.5 updated the Masterwork Horn. But there's a family of hornlike instruments based on the 3.0 horn's mechanics which weren't updated).

If you don't think it's a legitimate choice, you can use the Masterwork Mandolins (statted in Complete Adventurer). It increases IC's attack bonus by 1, but drops damage and save bonuses by 1 each. Besides being more useful in general, the attack bonus is what DFI's based on, making the Mandolin *almost* an additional +1 (but it should stack normally for everything important).

For a full +1, Vest of Legends+Masterwork Lute is 6 full Bard levels for IC, making a full +1 bonus. But the expense there is pretty steep and the lute only really matters for 1 level in 6 (for IC anyway).


And what do you mean about the spell known, 1500 gp and suggestion?I mean it's dirt cheap to get a good bonus.

1500 gp buys Masterwork Instrument + Badge of Valor
1 Spell known buys Inspirational Boost
1 Feat or 1 Bardic Music ability (Suggestion is usually the most disposable without getting prerequisites tangled up) buys Song of the Heart.

These are investments that a 3rd level character can cover, and they stay relevant forever.

[INoKnowNames]

It's in Song and Silence, which makes RAW sketchy (Inspire Courage was a flat +1 in 3.0, and 3.5 updated the Masterwork Horn. But there's a family of hornlike instruments based on the 3.0 horn's mechanics which weren't updated).

If you don't think it's a legitimate choice, you can use the Masterwork Mandolins (statted in Complete Adventurer). It increases IC's attack bonus by 1, but drops damage and save bonuses by 1 each. Besides being more useful in general, the attack bonus is what DFI's based on, making the Mandolin *almost* an additional +1 (but it should stack normally for everything important).

For a full +1, Vest of Legends+Masterwork Lute is 6 full Bard levels for IC, making a full +1 bonus. But the expense there is pretty steep and the lute only really matters for 1 level in 6 (for IC anyway).

For one reason or another, the Instruments are unviable choices for this character, but otherwise that's good to know.


I mean it's dirt cheap to get a good bonus.

1500 gp buys Masterwork Instrument + Badge of Valor
1 Spell known buys Inspirational Boost
1 Feat or 1 Bardic Music ability (Suggestion is usually the most disposable without getting prerequisites tangled up) buys Song of the Heart.

These are investments that a 3rd level character can cover, and they stay relevant forever.

Ah. I understand almost all of that but one. How does Suggestion gain you a Bonus Feat?

[dextercorvia]

Ah. I understand almost all of that but one. How does Suggestion gain you a Bonus Feat?

ACF in ECS -- where Song of the Heart comes from. Song of the Heart is one of the list of feats you can trade away some of the bardic music abilities for. SotH requires Inspire Competence, so the earliest you can grab it with the ACF is 6th level in exchange for Suggestion.

From what I understand, none of the rest of the feats are worth it.

[INoKnowNames]

ACF in ECS -- where Song of the Heart comes from. Song of the Heart is one of the list of feats you can trade away some of the bardic music abilities for. SotH requires Inspire Competence, so the earliest you can grab it with the ACF is 6th level in exchange for Suggestion.

From what I understand, none of the rest of the feats are worth it.

Oh, I see what you mean. I was thinking of it like Heroics: casting a spell to gain the feat.

I kinda like my Suggestion.... ah well. I've stilly basically got everything I need to work with.

[Socratov]

not to douse anyone's dreams, but activating a badge of valor and casting inspirational boost are both swift actions (you get one per round), though you could say you auto ready an action for casting inspirational boost and then when your turn comes you unload the badge and start singing/blowing your horn (hurrdurr) using SotH and WoC... that shoulgd get your (at say, level 6)

song: +2
horn: +1 to accuracy
badge: +1
SotH: +1
spell: *2 (The text IIRC mentions doubling your IC bonus)
WoC: *2
totalling: 2*(2*2+1+1+1)=2*(7)=14

with DFI you give everyone +14d6 fire damage (unless using silverbrow human allows you to take cold you can make it gold, pls speak to your DM about this). Let's say your melees have also hit 6 (and thus an iterative which they should be able to land, not using powerattack, it is not that neccessary anymore) they will do weapondamage (greatsword?)+strength+feats+14d6 per attack. This will do very nicely for twf rangers who will get 4 attacks, and on each attack weapondamage+strength+other sources of damage like favored enemy and feats that give damage+14d6.

For ranged it will be even funnier if they have a splitting bow with rapid shot (3 attacks, each gets +14d6)

But Socratov you charismatic stallion! You surely know splitting only applies extra dice only once? Why yes, it does for precision and critical damage, and guess what, DFI doesn't specify the sort of addition of damage it is, so you can just fire away on those arrows and smile whie your enemies disappear in an inferno of blazing glory.

(P.S. Your dualwielding sneak attack crit fishing rogue may love you and want to have your kids)

Disclaimer: italicized parts may contain examples of hyperbolic statements and vanity.

[Gwendol]

Nope, Badge of Valor is immediate action activation.

Inspirational boost explicitly states the bonus to IC is +1.

Assuming human, the feat list should probably be:

1 Extra Music
H Melodic Casting (CMage)
3 Songs of the Heart (ECS)
6 Lyric Spell (CAdv)
9 X

Spell lists is pretty much whatever, but the big ones you want for each level are:

1st
Inspirational Boost (SpC)
Improvisation (SpC)
Grease

2nd
Glitterdust

3rd
Haste
Slow
Glibness

4th
Solid Fog
Dim Door

That should give you a pretty good start. I think I cited everything...

Power-up suite for most combats will be:

Swift: Cast Inspirational Boost
Standard: Inspire Courage
Move: Move
End turn
Immediate action: Activate Badge of Valor

Next turn
Standard: Cast Haste
Move: Move
End turn

After that, doesn't really matter much, maybe toss out a Grease or a Glitterdust or shoot a short bow or whatever. Just keep singing!

[danzibr]

Yeah, I have, which is why I didn't say "Sublime Chord". :smalltongue:

Seriously though, I have skimmed it a couple of times, although if I missed anything or did anything wrong, I appologise. I didn't think my two pieces would be bad, even if they're just copper rather than gold.
Oh, sorry. I didn't mean to offend at all. It was just the "Have you guys mentioned Snowflake Wardance?" I did like and do thank you for your advice.

[Morph Bark]

Consider taking a level in Warweaver (Heroes of Battle) if you go into Sublime Chord, incredibly optimal for buffers. A level in Sandshaper is nice too to get more spells on your spell list. If you want to buff harder and focus more on Inspire Courage, see if you are allowed to go into Heartfire Fanner (here (http://birdsnestnaelvich.wikidot.com/forum/t-247756) and from Dragon magazine originally) for 3 levels.

Bard 20 is still good for a mid-optimized party, at least if you use some things outside of Core, like Bardic Knack from PHBII and feats like Dragonfire Inspiration, Song of the Heart (which you can get for free by trading in Inspire Competence as per one of the Eberron books) and Words of Creation. Add in spells like Harmony (Magic of Faerun IIRC) and Inspirational Boost (Spell Compendium) and a Badge of Valor and/or Vest of Legends and at level 7 you could give a +7 morale bonus to attack and damage and +9 to saves against charm and fear. Or trade that in for +7d6 fire damage, which you can change the type of, but that would require a level of Sorcerer or Dragonfire Adept plus a feat, or a single level in Dragon Shaman and no feat (which will also net you a handy aura, another buff!).

[Talya]

not to douse anyone's dreams, but activating a badge of valor and casting inspirational boost are both swift actions (you get one per round),


Nope, Badge of Valor is immediate action activation.

Immediate actions use up your next turn's swift action, so you're both right.

However, as Gwendol's post almost explains, the badge of valor can be used after Inspire Courage has already started. This means you activate it immediately after the turn in which you started inspire courage (with Inspirational Boost) is over, once you've got your immediate/swift action back.

[Gwendol]

I think that is covered in my edited post up there: activating the badge takes actually place after the end of the turn, which eats up the swift action of the following turn, but that shouldn't matter too much.

[dextercorvia]

It does mean that you probably shouldn't double it with Words of Creation. But, that isn't much of a big deal.

[MeeposFire]

The masterwork horn is part of complete adventurer. Do note that using it reduces the number of rounds a song lasts after you stop playing (I think it goes down to 1 round).

Remember if you can get enough feats going (by hook or crook) you can sing your songs during practically any action (such as spellcasting or using items) without even being heard and thus can sing all day long without stopping (or at least until your DM decides you have gone long enough).

[dextercorvia]

Which would trump: Lingering Song or MW Horn?

[Socratov]

you guys know the ACF the druid has on lvl 6? It's pretty much the same for the bard....

[dextercorvia]

you guys know the ACF the druid has on lvl 6? It's pretty much the same for the bard....

You mean the one where they give up their feat for leveling in order to cast in wild shape?

How does the Bard get that? :smallwink:

[Socratov]

You mean the one where they give up their feat for leveling in order to cast in wild shape?

How does the Bard get that? :smallwink:

well, they can choose to lose a feat at any level (asap better though) and take this ACF to be able to have inspire courage going and do stuff too :smallamused: