Help to "punish" my melee party

[godryk]

Hello playground!

Here I am, the not-so-experienced DM with my 6th level party playing a homebrew module. We are sticking to core so far, as it is the first time for two players and the second time for another one. The last member of the party is very experienced, lawyer-ish and likes playing high-op. He knows the rules better than I do, but fortunately, he's good enough at this to know that the DM and the story trump the rules.

The party consists of:
- Human monk with electric gauntlets and Wizard Armor Potions (experienced)
- Halfling rogue with two weapon fighting (first time, girlfriend of the player above)
- Dwarven Cleric (first time)
- Human Fighter (second time, he enjoys building his PC's, like this black freed-gladiator with rhino armor and chain)

So, as you can imagine, the combat consists in basically a lot of melee damage, the rogue flanking whenever possible and the cleric performing some trick every now and then (he could do more, I definitely have to explain how many things he can do with his spell selection). I have done some funny things with limes and flying little monsters, but after killing the party in the first session with an ogre barbarian, I became a little bit too cautious and I'm afraid that the first serious dungeon was not too challenging in the combat department.

As I see them work better and better, I would like to add some extra spice in the new dungeon so that they regret the lack of arcane casters and ranged combatants. I don't really want to kill them with a flying fireball-casting wizard, I just want to add some extra challenge.

Maybe some enchantment and illusion spells?
Some cleric doing casting nasty stuff like blindness?
Any strategy/creature suggestions? I'm thinking of some demon or devil fun, succubi maybe?

I obviously don't want anyone to design my dungeon, I would simple love to read some random ideas to "torture" a melee party.

[ahenobarbi]

What level? If you do some battlefield control (black tentacles?) + ranged damage they might have trouble.

[Drglenn]

Enemies that can fly 15ft off the ground and drop rocks/spells/insults?

[Telonius]

I'd suggest a "Trap Door" requiring a simultaneous casting of an arcane spell and a divine spell in order to pass. The Rogue should be able to UMD it, but it means expending precious scrolls (or having to go back and obtain one before proceeding). Basically, make it annoying, but not impossible.

As an aside, your Rogue is probably the best candidate for obtaining some sort of arcane casting. I'd steer her towards Arcane Trickster if I were you.

[Rejusu]

Simple, throw some flyers at them. Unless the cleric has gone travel domain they should have no ability to fly themselves so they should find it difficult. To give them a chance of winning make sure you chuck winged flyers at them and then if they struggle gently remind the chain fighter that you can stall flyers and bring them to the ground with a trip attack.

It should be enough to let the lesson sink in without outright murdering them. At the very least they might start thinking about carrying crossbows.

[SSGoW]

Welllllllllll

Scale it back a bit but read Tucker's Kobolds

They are meant to be annoying as hell but won't kill the party unless they are cray/stupid enough to try to use brute force -_-

Hit and run tactics, low dmg over a small ammount of time, and stretching resources thin will make the party tremble.

[Forum Explorer]

For a challenge I say use Tucker's kobolds. Give them a nice battering without killing them and still letting them progress.

EDIT: Swordsaged

[Caedes]

My personal favorite thing to do with Melee parties is to put them up against a Bard.

You'r instant reaction may be skeptical. But with the lower Will Saves and the fun chaos a Bard can cause...

You could actually cause the party to self destruct... But now that you have gained the experience of a TPK you can hold back the heavy hand before it gets to that part.

[Kesnit]

Why? Serious question. Why?

The players have built what they want to play. You said that most of the players are inexperienced. Do you want them to continue to play and maybe eventually get better with the system? Or do you want to annoy them so much that they walk away and never come back.

IMO, part of a DM's job is to run the game the players want to play. They have told you what they want to play - melee. So give them what they want.

[Snowbluff]

The party consists of:
- Human monk with electric gauntlets and Wizard Armor Potions (experienced)

- Dwarven Cleric (first time)



I loled.

One thing about 100% of monk players I know who have girlfriends, is that they might be experienced but didn't learn anything in the meantime. At least he didn't VoP, or I would of fell off the chair laughing.

Send some Constructs (or an Undead horde if the cleric is bad at turning), Rogue is worthless.

Send in anything with a decent AC, monk is worthless.

Fighters are fine, it's his second time. Don't worry about him too much him. Same with the Cleric. It's his first time he shouldn't be too bad.

I'm seconding flyers.

[ericgrau]

Ambushing archers, pit and other movement based traps, arrow slits, etc.
Incorporeal foes
swarms of little foes which could have been easily fireballed or battlefield controlled
actual swarms - immune to weapon damage; melee needs torches , alchemist fire and so on

[dextercorvia]

Embarrass them with a 6th level Warlock.

For Invocations take Spider Climb, Sickening Blast, Frightening Blast and Eldritch Chain.

Have him start the encounter hanging from a high ceiling. He will kite them for 3d6 damage + a Status effect (lowering their AC and saves) 2 at a time.

The encounter will be easy if the Cleric realizes he can use Dispel Magic, otherwise, they will probably have to run away (it shouldn't kill them, unless they are stupid).

[ahenobarbi]

Why? Serious question. Why?

So they don't get bored:


As I see them work better and better, I would like to add some extra spice in the new dungeon (...) I just want to add some extra challenge.

[CTrees]

Have them fight a prepared aboleth in its lair. An aquatic area, with an intelligent enemy, with illusion SLAs. Could be very interesting for a melee group.

Really though, they're showing you what they want to play. Run with it! Draw inspiration from Conan and from Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser.

[Mari01]

Why should all of their fights be vs. nothing but grounded enemies on solid ground? The occasional difficult challenge is a good thing.

[JadePhoenix]

IMO, part of a DM's job is to run the game the players want to play. They have told you what they want to play - melee. So give them what they want.

There is also the 'why' of doing this job. The DM has as much right to have fun as anyone else. So if the party doing lots of melee damage is boring for the DM and he wants a change of pace...

[godryk]

Thank you all for your input, there are some things mentioned that I had already considered, but I just wanted to see what you guys have to say. I don't have too much time to think and share my thoughts right now, however I feel I need to add some details to expand my description of the party.


I loled.

One thing about 100% of monk players I know who have girlfriends, is that they might be experienced but didn't learn anything in the meantime. At least he didn't VoP, or I would of fell off the chair laughing.

Well, it's partly my fault, I've restricted the thing to Core and I didn't want him to build anything powerful and have him single-handedly destroying all enemies. He's more the guy that plays the arcane caster with some levels of this and that. He just wanted to try something that he considered bad "and if I die I'll play a wizard". When I described his character I didn't want to impress anyone with an amazing template (I'm sure he knows better than I do how to make love to Complete Psionic and Tome of Battle), I just wanted to say that he's the group leader and the one most likely to know the weaknesess of different enemies... and the one that always lectures me when he uses a potion just right in the face of the monster because it had already used its attack of opportunity. See, I'm the real noob here, I simply wanted to make a story and have fun with some friends.

:smallbiggrin:

@everyone:
I also want to point out that we were supossed to have an arcane caster among us, but he was kidnapped by his girlfriend and videogames. I see what you all say about giving players what they want, but they are mostly newcomers to role-playing, they haven't tasted all the flavors (heck, neither have I).

[McClintock]

Why should all of their fights be vs. nothing but grounded enemies on solid ground? The occasional difficult challenge is a good thing.

I second this. I am in a roughly 12th level party and we recently ran afoul of 2 devil that (randomly) force caged the 2 fighters, split the ranged attackers and minimized the capabilities of our druid.

By the time our warlock realized what had happened, it took 4 rounds to get the 2 melees fighters back into the fight. Had we had a straight arcane caster, 2 dispel magics would have solved the problem sooner.

We learned our lesson and got some scrolls and wands to fill our gaps.

That is the important thing. Teach them how the game works without destroying their enjoyment.

[Aricandor]

Fortifications, defensive ballista things, archers on defensive towers or walls or arrow slits, large volumes of alchemist's fire... Pretty straightforward things that don't particularly require you to bring out magic that some players (particularly inexperienced ones) may consider somewhat cheesy.
Targeting weak saves, enchantments and warlocks are all well and good with players who know the game, but I've found people who aren't quite used to the game as a whole yet tend to either 1) accept it fully or 2) react quite volatilely. A smoother transition from mundane artillery -> magic artillery -> magic artillery with some annoying stuff (think grease and charm, maybe illusions of combatants and hazards mixed in with real ones) -> no holds barred with Dominate and Solid Fog with other nasties inside it might make for a nicer learning experience than going straight for the hard stuff. :smallsmile:

[Malachei]

I'd run a short, pretty straightforward dungeon they rush through.

Then, in victory, have them rest at a local inn. Have everybody be charming and friendly and very impressed with what the heroes have to tell by the fireplace. Have them drink a lot of wine and party real hard, including making fast friends. Then have them ambushed in the middle of the night by the brigands / shapechangers / whatever.

[Randomguy]

The right choice of language can make your players very paranoid. Instead of "The friendly elves offer you delicious looking berries", use "The seemingly friendly elves offer you what appear to be delicious looking berries".

See if you can get them paranoid enough to ruin a useful alliance. :smallbiggrin:

Also useful is passing notes that just say "smile and nodd".

[Krazzman]

Our DM played along this weakness in a campaign quite some time ago (at least 6 years). From what I was told the party was mostly melee centric/casting only with personal range.

He wrecked this 11th to 14th level group with a platoon of 10 crossbow archer drows...straight out of the MM with one level 8 cleric if i recollect correctly. The problem was that the party was kept away from them via a chasm.

The whole party got themselves killed except for the wizard who transformed himself into a bat and flew away...

Something along this line could be a bit harder to deal with for your party.

[ZeroSpace9000]

Thank you all for your input, there are some things mentioned that I had already considered, but I just wanted to see what you guys have to say. I don't have too much time to think and share my thoughts right now, however I feel I need to add some details to expand my description of the party.

Well, it's partly my fault, I've restricted the thing to Core and I didn't want him to build anything powerful and have him single-handedly destroying all enemies. He's more the guy that plays the arcane caster with some levels of this and that. He just wanted to try something that he considered bad "and if I die I'll play a wizard". When I described his character I didn't want to impress anyone with an amazing template (I'm sure he knows better than I do how to make love to Complete Psionic and Tome of Battle), I just wanted to say that he's the group leader and the one most likely to know the weaknesess of different enemies... and the one that always lectures me when he uses a potion just right in the face of the monster because it had already used its attack of opportunity. See, I'm the real noob here, I simply wanted to make a story and have fun with some friends.

:smallbiggrin:

@everyone:
I also want to point out that we were supossed to have an arcane caster among us, but he was kidnapped by his girlfriend and videogames. I see what you all say about giving players what they want, but they are mostly newcomers to role-playing, they haven't tasted all the flavors (heck, neither have I).

I'm not too sure the bolded item is a good thing, OP.

But to follow up, ranged attacks will make things a bit tougher for the group, as well as aerial foes. I would recommend more, but without the groups average level, it's not likely to be well tuned to them. Post the characters levels, please, and I can help more.

[Fatebreaker]

I see what you all say about giving players what they want, but they are mostly newcomers to role-playing, they haven't tasted all the flavors (heck, neither have I).

Just a word of caution: some people stick with a flavor because they like that flavor.

I get that a little challenge now and then can be a good thing. But remember, much as you want inexperienced players to learn, you don't want them to learn the wrong lessons.

[Garwain]

round 1: holy djeebus, a juvenile black dragon breath weapon from the skies and we can't charge it!
round 2: arg... I wanted it to land, but not to grapple me...
round 3: wew, glad we are finally getting organized, hit it!
round 4: did it just submerge... anyone willing to dive??

[erikun]

One thing about 100% of monk players I know who have girlfriends, is that they might be experienced but didn't learn anything in the meantime. At least he didn't VoP, or I would of fell off the chair laughing.
Just because he's experienced doesn't mean he has to play an optimized wizard. Heck, looking at the party, I'd've expected him to play an optimized monk just to see how well it can work.


As for the topic, I would recommend a dragon. A single equal-CR one can deal a large amount of damage, is highly mobile, and can fight from both a range and from up-close. Don't play hit-and-run all the time with it (that will likely kill the party) but a mix of moving around and meleeing for a few turns will likely get the party's appreciation to what a blaster can do at a range, along with what a full attack can accomplish.

[Toliudar]

I loled.

One thing about 100% of monk players I know who have girlfriends, is that they might be experienced but didn't learn anything in the meantime. At least he didn't VoP, or I would of fell off the chair laughing.

Interesting. I'd assumed that the experienced player had taken monk as a challenge, and to help make sure he wasn't overshadowing the others. But certainly, it could simply be that he doesn't know as much as he thinks that he does.

[godryk]

Thank you for all the ideas and encouragement! My main goal is that everyone has fun.


Then, in victory, have them rest at a local inn. Have everybody be charming and friendly and very impressed with what the heroes have to tell by the fireplace. Have them drink a lot of wine and party real hard, including making fast friends. Then have them ambushed in the middle of the night by the brigands / shapechangers / whatever.

This kind of stuff is always nice and mean. I'll keep it in mind for the future in order to break the notion of dangerous dungeons vs safe town.


Just a word of caution: some people stick with a flavor because they like that flavor.

I get that a little challenge now and then can be a good thing. But remember, much as you want inexperienced players to learn, you don't want them to learn the wrong lessons.

Thanks for the advice, it's true that I have to let them enjoy their choces.


Post the characters levels, please, and I can help more.

They're all 6th level.


Scale it back a bit but read Tucker's Kobolds

They are meant to be annoying as hell but won't kill the party unless they are cray/stupid enough to try to use brute force -_-

This qualifies as a very good "indecent proposition". Really sounds like something they will have to put up with and enjoy at the same time. I have found several thread in the playground about this topic.

[Lonely Tylenol]

What I like to do, when given the opportunity, is play the classes the PCs are playing, but with a trick or two up their sleeve that they don't know. For example, you may elect to have, say, an encounter with a group of level 1-2 Elf Rogues in a forest, whereby the Elves are all high-DEX (don't use the MM entry, either roll and load them into DEX, or a single Point Buy for all of them), have maxed Hide checks, and are wearing Cloaks of Elvenkind and Leather Armor of Silent Moves, or... Something. They use sniping tactics (as the Hide description allows), as well as shoot-and-run tactics, to harangue the party with Sneak Attack +1d6 with light bows. Hopefully, the Rogue in the group will learn that Sneak Attack can be administered by more than just flanking (and can be done fairly well).

You might introduce a Fighter that uses Improved Trip and some (but not all) of the tripper lockdown tricks (for example, he fights with a lance, which has reach, but not inclusive reach), which might help to teach the Fighter alternative methods of fighting (direct damage isn't the only thing you can do). Or, you might introduce a level or Fighter amidst a group of otherwise normal foes with Power Attack and a two-handed weapon, which clearly sets him aside from the other enemies due to his relatively high damage (which might teach the fighter the opposite lesson: that if you work at it, you can do direct damage quite well).

Environmental/terrain benefits are good, as well. The chasm is a good example of a strong environmental edge for your opponents (and, being native to the region, they should know how to work it in their favor).

[Giegue]

Have them fight a wizard/end thread.

In all seriousness though, for that party build a well-made, well played wizard would give them loads of trouble. Flying, as mentioned, would be GG for them in and of itself. Add in battlefield control and they'd have even more of a hale. Use enchantments against the fighter and watch as he's turned against his party due to his horrid will save. Any fort targeting spell will be GG for the rogue. Against the cleric reflex is probably your best bet and as for the monk...well...all his saves are probably good so just use whatever would be most annoying. Also, make use of summons along with flying. Not only is the wizard untouchable due to flight but his minions are putting even more pressure on the party while he pelts them with spells.

[Draconi Redfir]

why punish them at all?:smallconfused: Not having any arcane or ranged players isn't a criminal offence in D&D.

[Slipperychicken]

One thing about 100% of monk players I know who have girlfriends, is that they might be experienced but didn't learn anything in the meantime. At least he didn't VoP, or I would of fell off the chair laughing.


The bolded part confuses me. Is having a girlfriend supposed to make you worse at optimizing? :smallconfused:

[godryk]

why punish them at all?:smallconfused: Not having any arcane or ranged players isn't a criminal offence in D&D.

I used the quotation marks in an attempt to express that I'm using the word "punish" in figurative sense. Maybe I should have used the word challenge.

[lord_khaine]

I used the quotation marks in an attempt to express that I'm using the word "punish" in figurative sense. Maybe I should have used the word challenge.

Well, i gotta say i think its been an amazing amounth of bad advice you have gotten so far in this thread.

Atm the party you have is amazing for a gm who "mostly want to tell a story", since the classes they currently have will be much less likely to do something unexpected that throws you out of the loop.

So instead of throwing stupid stuff at them until they return as a druids/clerics/artificers/Erudites, then i would instead suggest to simply add more monsters to the encounters, getting to beat up hordes of mooks is tons of fun for most melee chars.

And if you want to spice things up a little bit, then add orcs with crossbows, or orcs with 1-3 fighter levels, or a orc cleric that buffs the rest of the orcs until he is killed, while at the same time healing himself, and just generaly being annoying.

You might even get away with adding a lower level sorcerer once in a while, level 1-3 save-or-suck spells like slow, or a fireball should be enough to annoy the party without making things to hard, and it should make them really happy when they finaly managet to kill the arcanist.

[zanetheinsane]

If they are all melee take a look around at some of the monsters and enemies that don't necessarily do a lot of damage but have really nasty on-hit effects or auras.

Throw a couple cloakers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/cloaker.htm) at them and see what happens. Flight, will saves, ambushy, grapples, concealment miss chances.

If your party is pretty large, tune the choakers down a bit and throw a solid 4 or 5 of them at them.

[Rejusu]

One thing about 100% of monk players I know who have girlfriends, is that they might be experienced but didn't learn anything in the meantime. At least he didn't VoP, or I would of fell off the chair laughing

Wow, that pretty much describes one of my friends who I played with once. He did take VoP and what's more multi-classed his monk with Paladin.

[milothethief]

Not 100% sure what the party did to incur your wrath, but I would say that every melee character should have a ranged weapon. Just make that painfully obvious with a few low level flying monsters with small shortbows (1D4) plinking at the characters mercilessly from above.