Natural Spell vs other feats

[Tegannie]

I'm playing a level 5 druid and trying to decided on a feat for 6th level. I've read that Natural Spell may be the best one for me to take, but so far, I don't use wild shape that much.

I'm playing a faerie, a homebrew race based on the pixie. Because my character is tiny, my DM altered the wild shape feature so all of the size catergories I can change into are one size smaller (so, at level 5, I can change into small and tiny animals instead of medium and small). In addition, I have a flaming sling which does 1d2 + 1d6 damage. I haven't found a use for wild shape yet.

So I'm thinking about taking a different feat at level 6 (specifically, Beast Totem from Ebrerron) and waiting to take Natural Spell (or not taking it at all). Any thoughts? Or ideas for other feats besides Beast Totem?

(PS: I am the party's primary healer and already have the ability to spontanously cast cure spells)

[Snowbluff]

There is no comparison. A sparrow casting spells up and away from danger is too handy. Then proceeding to scratch people's eyes out... Icing on the proverbial cake.

[Madwand99]

Not having access to medium-sized creatures (Deinonychus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dinosaur.htm)) is a significant nerf. Try to talk your DM out of that. If you can't, and you can already fly via pixie wings, wildshape will provide minimal benefits to you until 8th level when you get large (medium for you) wildshape, so you could delay Natural Spell until 9th level in that case, or just retrain your 6th level feat. If you can't fly and the idea of being a spellcasting sparrow appeals to you, go for Natural Spell.

[Snowbluff]

Are sparrows smaller than Pixies? Cuz I was going for the AC buff :P

[Tegannie]

There is no comparison. A sparrow casting spells up and away from danger is too handy. Then proceeding to scratch people's eyes out... Icing on the proverbial cake.

My druid can do that already, as she can fly normally. And then shoot people with flaming pebbles.:smallbiggrin:

[Coidzor]

You can already fly, I assume, so you have no reason to turn into a flying creature to stay out of reach and throw down spells. You're already tiny, so there's no real advantage to turning into an animal that's hard to hit for a few more levels until you can get something diminuitive like a bat or something.

You're too small to get good combat forms yet and you won't get good combat forms until after they're outclassed by size. I suppose Fleshraker can still stand up even after you're mostly running into large or larger beefsteak enemies once you get access to Large>Medium creatures.

[Necroticplague]

Because my character is tiny, my DM altered the wild shape feature so all of the size catergories I can change into are one size smaller (so, at level 5, I can change into small and tiny animals instead of medium and small).

Try seeing if you could ad-hoc a homebrew feat that gives you normal sizes, since what you have right now is equivalent to half a feat (proportional wild shape, exactly what it says on the tin if you're tiny or smaller or gargantuan or bigger), see if you can buy the other half.

[Elric VIII]

Well, I am not a really big fan of Wildshape on my Druids, so I look to ACFs. There's a really great one for a primary caster/controller druid. The Deadly Hunter ACF (bottom) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm) causes you to lose armor/shield proficiency and Wildshape, and you gain Monk's AC bonus and Fast Movenment (unlike the Barbarian's version, this applies to all movement modes), plus Ranger's Favored Enemy. If this appeals to you, then it would answer your Natural Spell issue, as well.

[Coidzor]

Well, I am not a really big fan of Wildshape on my Druids, so I look to ACFs. There's a really great one for a primary caster/controller druid. The Deadly Hunter ACF (bottom) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm) causes you to lose armor/shield proficiency and Wildshape, and you gain Monk's AC bonus and Fast Movenment (unlike the Barbarian's version, this applies to all movement modes), plus Ranger's Favored Enemy. If this appeals to you, then it would answer your Natural Spell issue, as well.

Unfortunately he could get the main draw of that with an item already, and armor properties for someone who isn't wildshaping are much more likely to be more valuable in the long run, unless he can get clothing of armor and enchant it like bracers of armor and put armor properties on it without losing the Wisdom to AC. Which is so far into "ask your DM" territory it's not even funny.

Fast Movement's not going to be all that useful either, and Ranger's Favored Enemy is pretty much useless beyond a minor buff to certain skills and making precision damage work on enemies.

What this really means is that the druid can feel free to take a PrC that advances casting and animal companion(wait do any of those actually exist?) unless it really wants to wait around until it can get relevant combat forms or can get that homebrew feat approved.

If we wanna talk variant rules there's city-shape (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) which would allow the druid to turn into swarms of creatures and city soul (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) which allows transformation into constructs rather than elementals.

This might even be one of the few situations where Aspect of Nature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#wildShapeVariantAspectOfN ature)might actually be somewhat attractive, even.

[erikun]

The main benefits of Natural Spell are turning into some small/evasive/unassuming creature while retaining your spellcasting, or turning onto a combat-focused creature while retaining your spellcasting. The first isn't necessary, and the second isn't available. This doesn't mean that Natural Spell is a bad idea - you'll have access to diminutive forms soon, which will be very nice - but you are already a small, flying, invisible character. You can certainly hold off on it for now, though, as that isn't even until 11th level.

[Coidzor]

Oh, that reminds me, how do you feel about summoning?

[Deathslayer7]

Seeing as you can fly already, I see no point in taking Natural spell. Natural spell is usually a last resort thing where I stay out of reach and blast away at you with spells sort of thing.

You can already do this.

[Tegannie]

Oh, that reminds me, how do you feel about summoning?

I haven't done any yet. I use my spells mostly for healing, some offensive, and some buff

[Elric VIII]

Unfortunately he could get the main draw of that with an item already, and armor properties for someone who isn't wildshaping are much more likely to be more valuable in the long run, unless he can get clothing of armor and enchant it like bracers of armor and put armor properties on it without losing the Wisdom to AC. Which is so far into "ask your DM" territory it's not even funny.

Isn't there something in A&EG specifically stating the Bracers of Armor can be enhanced by armor properties?


Fast Movement's not going to be all that useful either, and Ranger's Favored Enemy is pretty much useless beyond a minor buff to certain skills and making precision damage work on enemies.

What this really means is that the druid can feel free to take a PrC that advances casting and animal companion(wait do any of those actually exist?) unless it really wants to wait around until it can get relevant combat forms or can get that homebrew feat approved.

Favored enemy isn't that great, but Wis-to-AC as a class feature pretty much saves you 13,000 gp. If he wasn't going to be getting much benefit out of wildshape anyway, I'd say this is a decent trade.

Lion of Talisad (BoED) is a class that advances casting and AC, while gimping Wildshape a bit. Thing of Wildshape as a Druid's build-in PrC. Druids have good enough features that they really don't gain anything from PrC-ing (unlike Wizards/Clerics). If those class features become less useful, you can substitute it with a PrC. I get the feeling that people get caught up in how good wildshape is that they don't really explore alternate possibilities. Just think of Wildshape as a PrC for 5th level Druids that advances casting, AC, and grants them the ability to change shape.


If we wanna talk variant rules there's city-shape (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) which would allow the druid to turn into swarms of creatures and city soul (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) which allows transformation into constructs rather than elementals.

This might even be one of the few situations where Aspect of Nature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#wildShapeVariantAspectOfN ature)might actually be somewhat attractive, even.

Those are also pretty good options.

[Coidzor]

Isn't there something in A&EG specifically stating the Bracers of Armor can be enhanced by armor properties?

Yes, but that's 3.0 and not very commonly used and some may feel it's not viable in 3.5 due to bracers of armor being updated without that explicitly being stated.


I haven't done any yet. I use my spells mostly for healing, some offensive, and some buff

In that case, I have some recommended reading for you, as you have much, much better things to be doing in combat than healing your party members in the vast majority of cases and out of combat for healing you only really generally need to cast your own spells if it's something like Restoration.

A Player's Guide to 3.5 Healing (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2710.0)

Band-Aids for Dummies (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1520.0)

Druid Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=940) should have some spells of interest for you.



Favored enemy isn't that great, but Wis-to-AC as a class feature pretty much saves you 13,000 gp. If he wasn't going to be getting much benefit out of wildshape anyway, I'd say this is a decent trade.

Already mentioned this. Armor is better if you're getting anything like the wealth you're supposed to, even with druids being far more SAD than monks. It doesn't serve Monks well and it's mostly recommended for druids if they're wildshaping and don't have wilding clasps or can't afford armor they can wear while wildshaped. Better off taking a swordsage dip or doing something else or taking a PrC that requires wildshape and gives something decent.


Lion of Talisad (BoED) is a class that advances casting and AC, while gimping Wildshape a bit.

But, IIRC, it requires wild shape, so if she did get rid of wildshape like you recommended, then she couldn't take it anyway.


Thing of Wildshape as a Druid's build-in PrC. Druids have good enough features that they really don't gain anything from PrC-ing (unlike Wizards/Clerics). If those class features become less useful, you can substitute it with a PrC. I get the feeling that people get caught up in how good wildshape is that they don't really explore alternate possibilities. Just think of Wildshape as a PrC for 5th level Druids that advances casting, AC, and grants them the ability to change shape.

I can see some of your point, but your way of stating the premise is just ridiculous. Part of why Wildshape is so good is that the alternatives, especially the one you're trying to sell, are, to be frank, absolute rubbish, and obviously are attempts at retroactively making druids less awesome than they made them because they were asleep at the wheel.

[Elric VIII]

Yes, but that's 3.0 and not very commonly used and some may feel it's not viable in 3.5 due to bracers of armor being updated without that explicitly being stated.

But, IIRC, it requires wild shape, so if she did get rid of wildshape like you recommended, then she couldn't take it anyway.


I should probably check my sources, rather than relying on memory.



I can see some of your point, but your way of stating the premise is just ridiculous. Part of why Wildshape is so good is that the alternatives, especially the one you're trying to sell, are, to be frank, absolute rubbish, and obviously are attempts at retroactively making druids less awesome than they made them because they were asleep at the wheel.

Well, the point I am making is that Druids are strong enough to take the power hit in the name of diversity. It's the same reason why a VoP Druid is relevant in a party. The part that makes it tier 1 is the spellcasting, not the wildshape or AC. Even something like Holt Warden (no wildshape or AC, but full casting) isn't a huge hit to the Druid's power level. I see it entirely too often that the only recommended options are Druid 20 or Druid/Planar Shepherd. Compare this to Wizard, which can maintain relatively the same power level as an Incantatrix, Iot7V, Malconvoker, MotAO, Archmage, Anima Mage, etc. While not all of them are the exact same power level, they are all close enough to not make a real difference. Perhaps I choose a poor way of expressing it, but Wildshape is not the reason that the Druid is so powerful, so there should not be such an obsession to keep it at full power at the cost of other options.

[Coidzor]

I should probably check my sources, rather than relying on memory.

Personally, I do agree and think it should have been an explicit given from the get-go in 3.5, but as it stands it seems to mostly be enough of a muddled mess that a DM has to interpret it somehow. :/


Well, the point I am making is that Druids are strong enough to take the power hit in the name of diversity.

True, though I think giving it up for wisdom to AC is just a bad trade in general and would be the last resort that would be settled upon after ruling out any others as not fitting or not being allowed.


Perhaps I choose a poor way of expressing it, but Wildshape is not the reason that the Druid is so powerful, so there should not be such an obsession to keep it at full power at the cost of other options.

True, I'd definitely encourage investigating the casting PrCs, especially those that give AC progression as well, like, say, arcane hierophant, IIRC.

[Otomodachi]

Might I suggest looking at some of the feats that let you use wild shape to do other things than change shape? There's one for AC, there's one to move like a cheetah, there's a lot of options. Most have struck me as "meh" but with the way Wild Shape works for YOUR character I think you could probably find one that complements your build nicely! I think there's even one to gain a poison attack?

Investigate the Complete Divine and Champion. :)