[PF] 4th Member

[Mari01]

Our current group is level 2 and contains a dwarven wizard (not sure what spells), a human barbarian (standard hit hard for lots), and a gnome cleric (buff ALL the things). I'm wondering what would be a good 4th man. My initial idea was Rogue/Fighter or Rogue/Ranger into Red Mantis Assassin but the feats are giving me trouble. Any ideas on the build or entirely differnt things? The only thing they ask of me is to be a good party face.

TL;DR Red Mantis Assassin help / Rounding out the party.

For those interested my stats are: 15,12,17,11,11,16

[CTrees]

I always loved the fluff of the Red Mantis Assassins, and even kinda liked the class. Heck, I can accept the weapons restrictions (it does make them more mantis-y), but the feat requirements, urgh.

I think my starting point for a build would be Ninja 5/RMA X, using the Combat Trick a/o Weapon Training ninja tricks to mitigate the feat-intensiveness. Human, Goblin, and Tengu would be my starting point for race selection (Tengu should automatically be proficient with the Sawtooth Sabres).

[RndmNumGen]

Half-Elf could be another starting race, since you can trade your Skill Focus feat for an EWP.

[OracleofSilence]

I must say, in general, Half Elf is a good suggestion for a race. Man it felt weird to say that.

[Mari01]

Half-Elf could be another starting race, since you can trade your Skill Focus feat for an EWP.

Even without trading it away I was thinking Half-Elf. Free Skill focus in Diplomacy and my party has the face it needs even more. My DM has ruled that if I go this option he would pick a stat to place my +2 in. He rolled and it came up as CON. Not good but not bad either.

[Giegue]

Red Mantis assassin used to be an awesome class. However, word of warning, errata KILLED the Red Mantis assassin to the point of it being almost unusable...and the errata of which I speak was not even to the class itself but the weapon. The Sawtoos Sabre, under pre-errata rules, was finessable with weapons finesse, meaning a Red Mantis could focus on dex, cha and int and get along fine. It was still a bit MAD, but the MAD was liveable.

Now however, the errata makes the swawtooth sabre not able to be finessed, meaning that the Red Mantis assassin has become MADer then a Monk. Simply put, to be effective post Sawtooth Sabre errata, you need Str, Dex, Int AND cha, and can't dump con either. So you need good scores in EVERYTHING except wisdom. That does not mean a red mantis assassin is impossible, but it will be VERY, VERY, VERY hard to make without god rolls. If you have low strength, you won't be making attack rolls and dealing all that much damage....but if you have low dex you won't be good at stealth and other "assassin/rogue" skills. You need at minimum 15 charisma(an otherwise unimportant stat for you) to get all your spellcasting and can't dump int and con and expect to have a good range of skills and decent HP.

So, my sollution? If you want to play a skillmonkey with some magical power, I would look into 3.5e content or consider perhaps playing a ninja or bard. 3.5e has the beguiler and factotum, both of which would be great for a "skillmonkey with some spellcasting" and both would be ideal choices here. However, if this is strictly pathfinder then you would probally be better off with a bard, ninja or just a normal rogue with lots of ranks in UMD. Bards are odd but useful while Ninjas, though not actual spellcasters, get supernatural ki abilities which can satisfy your need to have some kind of mythic power. Of course strait rogue with UMD can make a passable "casty-sneak" with the right items, but is probably not what your looking for.

Also, don't take the pathfinder assassin PrC. It's great for NPCs. Horrid for PCs.

[Mari01]

Red Mantis assassin used to be an awesome class. However, word of warning, errata KILLED the Red Mantis assassin to the point of it being almost unusable...and the errata of which I speak was not even to the class itself but the weapon. The Sawtoos Sabre, under pre-errata rules, was finessable with weapons finesse, meaning a Red Mantis could focus on dex, cha and int and get along fine. It was still a bit MAD, but the MAD was liveable.

Now however, the errata makes the swawtooth sabre not able to be finessed, meaning that the Red Mantis assassin has become MADer then a Monk. Simply put, to be effective post Sawtooth Sabre errata, you need Str, Dex, Int AND cha, and can't dump con either. So you need good scores in EVERYTHING except wisdom. That does not mean a red mantis assassin is impossible, but it will be VERY, VERY, VERY hard to make without god rolls. If you have low strength, you won't be making attack rolls and dealing all that much damage....but if you have low dex you won't be good at stealth and other "assassin/rogue" skills. You need at minimum 15 charisma(an otherwise unimportant stat for you) to get all your spellcasting and can't dump int and con and expect to have a good range of skills and decent HP.

So, my sollution? If you want to play a skillmonkey with some magical power, I would look into 3.5e content or consider perhaps playing a ninja or bard. 3.5e has the beguiler and factotum, both of which would be great for a "skillmonkey with some spellcasting" and both would be ideal choices here. However, if this is strictly pathfinder then you would probally be better off with a bard, ninja or just a normal rogue with lots of ranks in UMD. Bards are odd but useful while Ninjas, though not actual spellcasters, get supernatural ki abilities which can satisfy your need to have some kind of mythic power. Of course strait rogue with UMD can make a passable "casty-sneak" with the right items, but is probably not what your looking for.

Also, don't take the pathfinder assassin PrC. It's great for NPCs. Horrid for PCs.

Let's say my DM used the pre-eratta sawtooths since he's very nice about things like that. Does that make them worthwhile again?

[CTrees]

That errata isn't out of place for Paizo, but really bites. No idea how to build it, now, besides maybe a little Synthesist to overwrite the physical stats.

[Giegue]

Oh yes. Pre-errata the class kicked ***. Pre-errata, when you could actually use the weapons finesse feat with the Sawtooth Sabre you could get away with less strength(still need some for damage, though) meaning you could put priority on Dex and Cha and not worry too much about MAD. You still had some, since you needed some strength for damage, but you could get away with a meh strength and still be good. Post sawtooth errata, however, you NEED a high strength and thus Dex, the stat that governs basically everything else you do as an assassin character, takes a major hit. Simply put, if you can use weapons finesse with a sawtooth sabre, the class is 100% worth it. If you can't, MAD kills any effectiveness the class has.(Unless your REALLY lucky on stat rolls.)

[Blyte]

halfling bard w/ trapfinding (I think there is an archetype)

with the trait "helpful" and alternate racial feature jinx.

take ironwill and bolster jinx and sluggish jinx. you will be giving everyone -3will saves, -3attack rolls, and -3initiative that you jinx. (it's a decent thing to do when you don't want to blow a spell)

you will be able to aid the wizard and cleric with their skill rolls, get the traps, dabble in magics, and give a flank to your barbarian.

then take the prestige class pathfinder chronicler for even more aid another bonus and neato flavor abilities.

[KutuluKultist]

halfling bard w/ trapfinding (I think there is an archetype)

with the trait "helpful" and alternate racial feature jinx.

take ironwill and bolster jinx and sluggish jinx. you will be giving everyone -3will saves, -3attack rolls, and -3initiative that you jinx. (it's a decent thing to do when you don't want to blow a spell).

I don't think that's how it works. You give -3 to will and -1 to attack and initiative.
Which, as a single target debuff is not worth 2+1 feats, thought it might be worth an action. You could get area jinx, but it costs you another feat.

If bolster jinx didn't have its prerequisites and boosts the penalty on all saves, I'd be tempted.

[Blyte]

it's fuzzy, I'm not certain if it's how it works, but I can see a case for either way.

I think it *should* work that way with the ammount of investment and the way the way they word sluggish jinx. why not just word sluggish jinx to a set -1 value, if they weren't anticipating for people to take bolster jinx in conjunction? they made it a variable value because they were expecting it to either be a -1 or a -3 with bolster on board.

what are you saying? people should have to take ironwill, lighning ref, and great fortitude to raise sluggish up to -3? I think 1 should be sufficient to raise that bar personally.


edit: oh and eventually I guess you can take the feat that incorporates jinx with your performances as well as area jinx, but the pre-req for area jinx is too caster centric. I think they should make the pre-req a jinx feat and not a meta-magic feat personally. they jinx line is a good idea, but paizo executed it poorly. It is screaming for revision IMO.

[KutuluKultist]

it's fuzzy, I'm not certain if it's how it works, but I can see a case for either way.

I think it *should* work that way with the ammount of investment and the way the way they word sluggish jinx. why not just word sluggish jinx to a set -1 value, if they weren't anticipating for people to take bolster jinx in conjunction? they made it a variable value because they were expecting it to either be a -1 or a -3 with bolster on board.

what are you saying? people should have to take ironwill, lighning ref, and great fortitude to raise sluggish up to -3? I think 1 should be sufficient to raise that bar personally.

No, I'm saying nothing of the kind. I'm saying that the term "Your jinx’s penalty on saving throws" refers to one penalty on the general plural object "saving throws", usually indicating all saving throws. This is a problem if you have different penalties on different saving throws, because then the term "your jinx's penalty on saving throws" seems to have nothing to refer to anymore. There simply is no such things as you jinx's one penalty on all saving throws.
If you have all three save feats and bolster jinx, this problem disappears again.

Now, how I would like those feats to work is that area jinx should not have widen spell as a prerequisite, nor bolster a save feat and bolster should make the penalty an even -2 or even -3 for all saves. If you take all three feats, you could then lay down a 10 ft radius -2(3) to saves, attack and initiative as a standard action. Something I would probably be willing to spend three feats for, but even then it's kind of costly.

But sadly, that is not how the rules are written.



edit: oh and eventually I guess you can take the feat that incorporates jinx with your performances as well as area jinx, but the pre-req for area jinx is too caster centric. I think they should make the pre-req a jinx feat and not a meta-magic feat personally. they jinx line is a good idea, but paizo executed it poorly. It is screaming for revision IMO.
I agree.

[Cieyrin]

Red Mantis assassin used to be an awesome class. However, word of warning, errata KILLED the Red Mantis assassin to the point of it being almost unusable...and the errata of which I speak was not even to the class itself but the weapon. The Sawtoos Sabre, under pre-errata rules, was finessable with weapons finesse, meaning a Red Mantis could focus on dex, cha and int and get along fine. It was still a bit MAD, but the MAD was liveable.

Now however, the errata makes the swawtooth sabre not able to be finessed, meaning that the Red Mantis assassin has become MADer then a Monk. Simply put, to be effective post Sawtooth Sabre errata, you need Str, Dex, Int AND cha, and can't dump con either. So you need good scores in EVERYTHING except wisdom. That does not mean a red mantis assassin is impossible, but it will be VERY, VERY, VERY hard to make without god rolls. If you have low strength, you won't be making attack rolls and dealing all that much damage....but if you have low dex you won't be good at stealth and other "assassin/rogue" skills. You need at minimum 15 charisma(an otherwise unimportant stat for you) to get all your spellcasting and can't dump int and con and expect to have a good range of skills and decent HP.

So, my sollution? If you want to play a skillmonkey with some magical power, I would look into 3.5e content or consider perhaps playing a ninja or bard. 3.5e has the beguiler and factotum, both of which would be great for a "skillmonkey with some spellcasting" and both would be ideal choices here. However, if this is strictly pathfinder then you would probally be better off with a bard, ninja or just a normal rogue with lots of ranks in UMD. Bards are odd but useful while Ninjas, though not actual spellcasters, get supernatural ki abilities which can satisfy your need to have some kind of mythic power. Of course strait rogue with UMD can make a passable "casty-sneak" with the right items, but is probably not what your looking for.

Also, don't take the pathfinder assassin PrC. It's great for NPCs. Horrid for PCs.

I think you're overvaluing the amount of ability scores y'need to make a Red Mantis Assassin work. If you focus on Dex and Cha, like ninjas do, and give some extra points to put Str, Con and Int into the 12-14 range, you can make it work just as well. You also only need a Cha of 14 to get max benefit from spells, which are all taken from the illusion and transmutation schools off the wizard list plus some extras that you gain as you level now.

As for the nerf of the Sawtooth Sabre, I'm thinking they wanted to bring it in line with the Aldori Dueling Sword but focus the Assassin and the Sabre on TWFing, hence the bonuses for having more than one on Prayar Attack, keeping the enhancements of the Sabres while in Mantis form, etc.

[Giegue]

First of all, a red mantis assassin post-sawtooth sabre errata CAN'T get away with an ok strength anymore if he wants to hit something. Pre-errata, he could do just what he described since finess made attack rolls for the sabre based on dex...so you only needed str for damage. Post errata you need str for damage AND to-hit, meaning you'll need a high strength score if you actually plan on hitting anything. As for con and int, 12-14 is fine, but since you NEED high str AND high dex, everything else will take a hit and you'll be hard pressed to squeak out even a 12 for con and int, since you'll need fighter-caliber strength if you actually want to hit anything and rogue caliber dexterity if you want to good at all your other duties. Not to mention you need 15 cha, not 14, if you want your highest spell level. You don't need to start with 15 cha, mind you, but if you start with just 14 you WILL have to spend a stat point you get from leveling on it(which IMO is the best thing to do.)

[Cieyrin]

First of all, a red mantis assassin post-sawtooth sabre errata CAN'T get away with an ok strength anymore if he wants to hit something. Pre-errata, he could do just what he described since finess made attack rolls for the sabre based on dex...so you only needed str for damage. Post errata you need str for damage AND to-hit, meaning you'll need a high strength score if you actually plan on hitting anything. As for con and int, 12-14 is fine, but since you NEED high str AND high dex, everything else will take a hit and you'll be hard pressed to squeak out even a 12 for con and int, since you'll need fighter-caliber strength if you actually want to hit anything and rogue caliber dexterity if you want to good at all your other duties. Not to mention you need 15 cha, not 14, if you want your highest spell level. You don't need to start with 15 cha, mind you, but if you start with just 14 you WILL have to spend a stat point you get from leveling on it(which IMO is the best thing to do.)

No, 14 Cha. Have you looked at the Inner Sea World Guide? They cap out at 4th level spells.

As for need high Str, like any rogue-like, most of your damage will be coming from Sneak Attack, not Str. You get the Weapon Focus chain for free to help compensate for your lower Str, so you don't have to hulk out, not to mention using your spells to create advantages to you, like Invisibility and Bull's Strength if it's that worrying. Yes, you aren't full BAB but if you catch your enemies flat-footed or flanked, it can generally be made up for. Not to mention that you can learn Greater Magic Weapon and get a Runestone of Power so that you can enchant both your Sawtooth Sabres on effectively one slot, as well as Magical Knack to boost your CL. So no, you aren't MADder than a Monk, you can be about as MAD as a gunslinger as a DADder.

[Mari01]

I'm going to go with my stats as such

Str 11
Dex 17
Con 16
Int 12 +2 from Half-Elf for 14
Wis 11
Cha 15

The low wisdom bothers me but the +2 on Half-Elf helps with perception. I also took the trait that gives +1 on will saves to try and help cover that.

Suggestions/Critiques are always welcome.