Versatile heightened.

[Thuran]

So, As you may be able to guess, this refers to the combination that relies on using Versatile spellcaster together with Heightened spell to achieve the prerequisites for Mystic Theurge already at level 3.

However, looking over it, one thing puzzles me: The builds include 1 level of bard, which does gives you access to the feat through spontaneus casting.

But, and here comes the question:
You need to be able to cast spontaneusly to take the feat, the feat RAW doesnt limit it to one class or specifies that you need to convert spontaneus spell slots. Secondly, Since the cleric is already capable of spontaneusly casting spells, wouldn't it mean that the level of bard is fairly pointless in cleric/wizard build? I am sure there is a point I am missing, since some of the builds do include Cleric/Bard/WIs, but I am just wondering what it is.

[Ernir]

I am not familiar with a cookie-cutter Mystic Theurge build involving Bard/Cleric/Wizard. Can you show us the build(s) in question?

[dextercorvia]

It can be done with just Cleric. Not everyone agrees, and they might be trying to get into focluchan lyricist.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Spontaneously converting prepared spells into a different spell is not the same thing as spontaneously casting spells.

There are a lot more early-entry tricks that you could use without spending two feats on something that would be questionable for your particular build. Use Illumian from Races of Destiny with the Krau sigil and take the feat Improved Sigil: Krau, and go Wizard 1 or 2/ Cloistered Cleric 2 or 1/ MT. You spend only one feat on early qualification, you save yourself two feats by emulating Practiced Spellcaster for both classes, and it's less questionable than trying to use Versatile Spellcaster for prepared classes.

[Snowbluff]

It can be done with just Cleric. Not everyone agrees, and they might be trying to get into focluchan lyricist.

I agree. You should use Sanctum Spell, IIRC. It does not have a spell slot modifier and it increases the spells level by one. Apply it to the second level spell you made with 2 first level slots to make a third level spell.

[dextercorvia]

Spontaneously converting prepared spells into a different spell is not the same thing as spontaneously casting spells.

There are a lot more early-entry tricks that you could use without spending two feats on something that would be questionable for your particular build. Use Illumian from Races of Destiny with the Krau sigil and take the feat Improved Sigil: Krau, and go Wizard 1 or 2/ Cloistered Cleric 2 or 1/ MT. You spend only one feat on early qualification, you save yourself two feats by emulating Practiced Spellcaster for both classes, and it's less questionable than trying to use Versatile Spellcaster for prepared classes.

And yet the class feature is called: Spontaneous Casting. Actually Clerics don't need Heighten since they know their whole list (as soon as it becomes pertinent anyway).


I agree. You should use Sanctum Spell, IIRC. It does not have a spell slot modifier and it increases the spells level by one. Apply it to the second level spell you made with 2 first level slots to make a third level spell.

Why are you shooting for 3rd level spells?

[Snowbluff]

And yet the class feature is called: Spontaneous Casting. Actually Clerics don't need Heighten since they know their whole list (as soon as it becomes pertinent anyway).



Why are you shooting for 3rd level spells?

Yes. It's Spontaneous Casting :smallbiggrin:

As for 3rds? Rainbow Servant and Metaphysical Spellshaper have skill requirements for levels lower than 3rd level casting.

I finally figured out why this person was using Heighten, though. I think Sanctum Spell would accomplish getting 2nd level spells fine by itself.

[dextercorvia]

Yes. It's Spontaneous Casting :smallbiggrin:

As for 3rds? Rainbow Servant and Metaphysical Spellshaper have skill requirements for levels lower than 3rd level casting.

I finally figured out why this person was using Heighten, though. I think Sanctum Spell would accomplish getting 2nd level spells fine by itself.

Sanctum has a prereq of one metamagic feat that you have to watch out for.

Krau doesn't save you as many feats as you'd think either, since you are forced to go Illumian (which has perks, but costs you the ability to go Human.

[Snowbluff]

Sanctum has a prereq of one metamagic feat that you have to watch out for.

Krau doesn't save you as many feats as you'd think either, since you are forced to go Illumian (which has perks, but costs you the ability to go Human.

Yeah, well... you go retrain (read "cleric know the Chaos Shuffle") the feat(s) after you can cast the correct level of spell normally. A MM feat isn't much of a feat tax in the first place, since most Clerics at least pick up Extend spell.

Being Illumian is a much higher investment that goes beyond feats. You had be getting the full benefit of the race before and after your cheesy entry.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For an early-entry theurge, going Illumian with Krau costs you one feat for not being Human, but it saves you two feats on Practiced Spellcaster twice. Granted, gaining +1 caster level to one class and +2 caster level to the other isn't exactly worth spending two feats on, but I'd say it's definitely worth one feat to catch back up, plus you get a second sigil plus a few minor benefits. Vaul will give you a bonus on turning checks, making Divine Spell Power a bit more useful, and Vaulkrau is actually decent if you have extra spell slots. Naen gives a bonus to Spellcraft, Knowledge skills, Decipher Script, Craft, etc. and Naenkrau is also useful if you have more than enough spell slots.

Sanctum Spell is actually pretty good in a not-quite-intended way. It lets you use lesser metamagic rods on 4th level spells, and you can put them into a spell storing weapon. You can use a standard metamagic rod with up to 7th level spells with it, so a Rod of Chain Spell (CA) with Destruction for example. It also interacts favorably with post-errata Arcane Thesis, subject to interpretation.

[nyjastul69]

So, As you may be able to guess, this refers to the combination that relies on using Versatile spellcaster together with Heightened spell to achieve the prerequisites for Mystic Theurge already at level 3.

However, looking over it, one thing puzzles me: The builds include 1 level of bard, which does gives you access to the feat through spontaneus casting.

But, and here comes the question:
You need to be able to cast spontaneusly to take the feat, the feat RAW doesnt limit it to one class or specifies that you need to convert spontaneus spell slots. Secondly, Since the cleric is already capable of spontaneusly casting spells, wouldn't it mean that the level of bard is fairly pointless in cleric/wizard build? I am sure there is a point I am missing, since some of the builds do include Cleric/Bard/WIs, but I am just wondering what it is.

I think I'm missing something here. How is it that bards get spontaneous casting? There are only 2 types of casters, per the PH, that are spontaneous casters, Clerics and Druids. There are no other classes with 'spontaneous casting' as a class feature.

Edit: I found the section of the Rules Compendium that redefines what a spontaneous caster is. The 3.5 SRD agrees with the PH, insofar as I can tell. i also understand the primacy of rules. RC rules in this case.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but the newest definition of 'spontaneous caster' includes casters that don't prepare spells (sorc, bard), but it does not include the original spontaneous casters, Clerics and Druids, whom prepare spells. Or, are Clerics and Druids still considered to be spontaneous casters as per their class ability? I haven't read anything in the RC that recinds the Cleric/Druid ability to cast spontaneously.

[Snowbluff]

For an early-entry theurge, going Illumian with Krau costs you one feat for not being Human, but it saves you two feats on Practiced Spellcaster twice. Granted, gaining +1 caster level to one class and +2 caster level to the other isn't exactly worth spending two feats on, but I'd say it's definitely worth one feat to catch back up, plus you get a second sigil plus a few minor benefits. Vaul will give you a bonus on turning checks, making Divine Spell Power a bit more useful, and Vaulkrau is actually decent if you have extra spell slots. Naen gives a bonus to Spellcraft, Knowledge skills, Decipher Script, Craft, etc. and Naenkrau is also useful if you have more than enough spell slots.

Sanctum Spell is actually pretty good in a not-quite-intended way. It lets you use lesser metamagic rods on 4th level spells, and you can put them into a spell storing weapon. You can use a standard metamagic rod with up to 7th level spells with it, so a Rod of Chain Spell (CA) with Destruction for example. It also interacts favorably with post-errata Arcane Thesis, subject to interpretation.

Question aboot the Illumians! Does their extra CL work like Practiced Caster, where it can only fill in loss of CL, or is it a flat boost like using an Ioun Stone? If the latter, they would, in fact, be very good.:smallbiggrin:

You can make wand of Sanctum Acid Splash as a negative level wand to earn gold an XP, and even reverse the flow of time!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Question aboot the Illumians! Does their extra CL work like Practiced Caster, where it can only fill in loss of CL, or is it a flat boost like using an Ioun Stone? If the latter, they would, in fact, be very good.:smallbiggrin:

It works like Practiced Spellcaster, it's capped at your character level.

[Snowbluff]

It works like Practiced Spellcaster, it's capped at your character level.

Oh. A little on the worthless side for the most part then.

[kardar233]

Oh. A little on the worthless side for the most part then.

All the Illumian sigils are intended to promote multiclassing. I like them a lot, personally.

[Snowbluff]

All the Illumian sigils are intended to promote multiclassing. I like them a lot, personally.

That's cool, but I think the Human's bonus feat and skill points do a pretty good job of that as well.