Knight Tank Optimization

[F0X7713]

Hello again!! I bring forth another character to help me with!!

So, in this party, there is the following:
Elf Swift Hunter
Elf Wizard
Human Knight
Human Fighter

We are all starting at lvl 1, and her character isn't even made yet, but I just wanted some ideas and opinions on how we should go about making this character. Yes, I have read the Knight Handbook that someone posted on GitP not that long ago, but I still wanted to talk to you guys about it!

I don't want to focus too much on gear (Since we don't know how much gold we will actually be earning in this campaign) but more on what feats she should take, and if it would be wise to multiclass or not.

Note: She is still fairly new to DnD, and even though she understands the game, she doesn't go out of her way to learn about the game as much as her other half. =P

So please!! Let the discussions begin!! I am excited to read all that everyone has to say! =)

[F0X7713]

*Bump*

Also, she isn't stuck on being a knight, but she does really like the idea of being a loud character and really wants to do the tanking for our party ^_^

[Malachei]

If she's new, why a knight, not a fighter re-flavored as knight?

[F0X7713]

If she's new, why a knight, not a fighter re-flavored as knight?

2 reasons:

1) We already have a fighter in our party, and she didn't like the idea of being the same thing.

2) She likes the Knight Challenges a lot, and thinks they are pretty handy for BF control and keeping the enemy's attention on her.

[Essence_of_War]

Human Knight?

Do you know what level your game is going to end at or near? That's typically a pretty strong factor in the "should I multiclass" debate. If you are, Knight 3 is a pretty good breakpoint, and they can pick up some fighter, paladin, or hexblade levels, or check out the ToB for Crusader stuff. Crusader has lots of

At any rate, they need a reach weapon and a weapon that you can use in close. I think it's worth the feat to get Exotic: Spiked Chain to fill both roles, but if they don't think so, a guisarme and armor spikes are a pretty good start.

I'd invest in some of the crowd control feats:
Combat Expertise + Improved Trip + Knockdown + Combat Reflexes
OR
Combat Reflexes + Stand Still

and make sure they take Power Attack at some point.

[Malachei]

2 reasons:

1) We already have a fighter in our party, and she didn't like the idea of being the same thing.

2) She likes the Knight Challenges a lot, and thinks they are pretty handy for BF control and keeping the enemy's attention on her.

If she's ready to go battlefield control, then by all means go Crusader, take Thicket of Blades (and a decent Dex with Combat Reflexes) with a reach weapon and have massive AoO fun. Then consider having a spellcaster cast enlarge person on her character. Stone Power, by the way, is a good feat to support her character's survivability, in combination with the Crusader's delayed damage pool.

As the previous poster suggested, Stand Still and other options can nicely complement this.

[F0X7713]

Human Knight?

Do you know what level your game is going to end at or near? That's typically a pretty strong factor in the "should I multiclass" debate. If you are, Knight 3 is a pretty good breakpoint, and they can pick up some fighter, paladin, or hexblade levels, or check out the ToB for Crusader stuff. Crusader has lots of

At any rate, they need a reach weapon and a weapon that you can use in close. I think it's worth the feat to get Exotic: Spiked Chain to fill both roles, but if they don't think so, a guisarme and armor spikes are a pretty good start.

I'd invest in some of the crowd control feats:
Combat Expertise + Improved Trip + Knockdown + Combat Reflexes
OR
Combat Reflexes + Stand Still

and make sure they take Power Attack at some point.

Awesome, all those suggestions are great! I will look at the crusader and see if would be something she would be interested in, but she may want to stick with a knight, even though I have no idea if knight 1-20 is a strong way to go or not.

[F0X7713]

If she's ready to go battlefield control, then by all means go Crusader, take Thicket of Blades (and a decent Dex with Combat Reflexes) with a reach weapon and have massive AoO fun. Then consider having a spellcaster cast enlarge person on her character. Stone Power, by the way, is a good feat to support her character's survivability, in combination with the Crusader's delayed damage pool.

As the previous poster suggested, Stand Still and other options can nicely complement this.

Sounds good!! Definitely will see if this kinda build interests her or not!

Anyone else have any good tanking builds this Knight can walk down? ^_^

[Essence_of_War]

If you KNOW you'll get to 20, knight 20 is the only way to get Loyal Beyond Death, which is pretty crazy, and pretty cool. Depending on the rest of the party and your optimization level etc etc you may want to plan the Knight build to make sure it it is useful and contributing at all levels. The Crusader, by contrast, can be hard pressed NOT to be useful.

There is a Crusader Handbook in my sig that is a great resource for Crusaders, and has some advice on how to use the Knight as part of a Crusader build.

[Malachei]

I think your favorite search engine will deliver this to you. Try "lockdown crusader" or some similar terms, such as "crusader handbook", "fighter handbook", etc.

And have a look here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you...).

[F0X7713]

If you KNOW you'll get to 20, knight 20 is the only way to get Loyal Beyond Death, which is pretty crazy, and pretty cool. Depending on the rest of the party and your optimization level etc etc you may want to plan the Knight build to make sure it it is useful and contributing at all levels. The Crusader, by contrast, can be hard pressed NOT to be useful.

There is a Crusader Handbook in my sig that is a great resource for Crusaders, and has some advice on how to use the Knight as part of a Crusader build.

Yes! I thank thee for the handbook. I think she will really like the idea of going knight-->Crusader! It will really giver her the option to keep the enemies coming at her, or suffering for it. And it will give our party an easier time picking off enemies while she holds their attention and beasts in their face with a reach weapon or something of the sort. ^_^

[Red_Dog]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109429

Person_Man's knight handbook^ - an extremely well written guide to Knights.

My main suggestion would be to focus on an aspect of a knight.

Knight can=>
Effectively be mounted combatant
Effectively charge on foot
Effectively be a road block by lvl3 [make SURE the wizard picks up Enlarge person ASAP]
**Bonus aspect is => Effective Intimidation with Imperious Command by lvl6[Drow of the Underdark]. Takes a feat and max ranks in Intimidation**

For a road block, you can start at level 1! Have a wizard pick up Enlarge person (lvl1 spell), Grab a Halberd, Combat Reflexes and Stand Still. This gives you base of 10ft, reach of 15ft so you are threatening a BIG part of battlefield. Instead of Stand still, if your Dex is high enough, you can get Hold the line so you get a LOT of attacks of opportunity. By level 3, that huge area is suddenly difficult terrain!

[Person_Man]

I wrote the Knight Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109429), have played one for a long campaign, and have DM'd for one. Is there something specific you would like to know or discuss that isn't covered in the above post?

[F0X7713]

I wrote the Knight Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109429), have played one for a long campaign, and have DM'd for one. Is there something specific you would like to know or discuss that isn't covered in the above post?

I read your Handbook, and it is quite awesome frankly. I just wanted to see if anyone had opinions on a specific build because of our party. Again, we don't have a healer, and probably will have to rely on out of combat healing to stay alive. I am basically trying to draw as much data possible so that when my fiance is ready to make her class (Either tomorrow or Wednesday) I can lead her in the direction she truly would like to go. =)

[F0X7713]

Crusader: Crusaders can delay damage, heal, attack, and use decent battlefield control. The potential combo’s and builds are too numerous to list in a short blurb, but trust me, they rock. Best ECL: 5-8. Tome of Battle.

This is actually a big reason why going Crusader was also appealing based on what you said here, but we very well might be going to ECL 15-20 range, so I am not sure what would truly be best. I know for sure our DM said we are going to get through the 1st 10 levels quickly, then the more intensive challenges will come after that.

[F0X7713]

I am not sure if I mentioned this or not, but my DM has said a few times before that he is going to limit how much gold we will be getting. (By how much, I am not sure.) So I want to stay safe, and not expect to have enough cash to buy belts of healing, or wand of CLW, or enchant her arms with Vampiric Touch, Ect.

I would like to try to find good ways for her to stay alive without a ton of healing, which is why Stone Power with the Crusader's delayed damage pool sounds pretty sweet.

[Particle_Man]

Crusaders have a few combat healing maneuvers that are cool too.

[F0X7713]

Crusaders have a few combat healing maneuvers that are cool too.

Yes, the Crusader seems really awesome imo. I think she will like the class, and may or may not want to start with knight and then go to crusader. Won't actually know until we make her character. =3

[kulosle]

I would mention how good of a tank adding 10 levels of ardent to a build is, but you might not want a new player trying to learn psionics. I'd recommend to just sticking with knight. Knight is an okay class that does what it is suppose to do fairly well. And it actually has abilities that no one else can replicate. There are very few good options for tanks any ways.

[F0X7713]

I would mention how good of a tank adding 10 levels of ardent to a build is, but you might not want a new player trying to learn psionics. I'd recommend to just sticking with knight. Knight is an okay class that does what it is suppose to do fairly well. And it actually has abilities that no one else can replicate. There are very few good options for tanks any ways.

Well, in your opinion, what are the good options for tanks? And I agree, probably best to stay away from psionics as of now. =^_^=

[prufock]

Tank? Standard Tank advice:

When you reach a high enough level to have the cash, grab a Retributive Amulet (9,000 gp, melee attacker takes half damage dealt to you, 3/day, immediate action, MIC) or Amulet of Retribution (56,000 gp, melee attacker takes half damage dealt to you, continuous, BOED). If the DM allows, take BOTH. There is an argument that the MIC version overrules the BOED version, but they have different names, so that isn't necessarily the case.

If you're comfortable with Binders, take a 1 level dip + Improved Binding feat for Dahlver-Nar, which grants the Shield Self ability. Your player may not want to learn the binding rules, but you're really just binding the same single vestige every day for a few cool effects.

Combine all these effects and your foe takes 87.5% of the damage he's dishing out, while you take a measly 12.5% (stacking may not fly with all DMs, but I believe the wording allows it).

Even if you can't get your hands on the amulets due to your low wealth, the binder dip is solid.

[F0X7713]

*Bump*

Just looking to see if anyone else has any other opinions on good tanking builds. ^_^

[F0X7713]

Actually, I do have a specific question...

If a tank goes with the lock-down route with Stand Still and Combat Reflexes, they should use a 2 handed reach weapon like a Glaive. But, they loose their shield AC bonus because, well they can't carry one. Is that okay?

[F0X7713]

*bump* =^_^=

[TheMooch]

Actually, I do have a specific question...

If a tank goes with the lock-down route with Stand Still and Combat Reflexes, they should use a 2 handed reach weapon like a Glaive. But, they loose their shield AC bonus because, well they can't carry one. Is that okay?

two words: animated shield

[F0X7713]

two words: animated shield

Okay what about in the earlier levels??

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, with a Guisarme and Stand Still and Knock Down and Jotunbrud and Enlarge Person and Combat Reflexes... no melee entities should be getting close to him to make a hit anyway... That's how this tank concept works: He gives a major debuff to any enemies within his reach (prone), which means that pretty much no matter what they do, they can't close without provoking a ton of attacks, any of which might kill them or stop their movement. He doesn't tank by using a shield, which doesn't really help that much anyway, he tanks by stopping the ability of other creatures to move or attack in a meaningful way. Look at page... uh, I think its 308 of DMG, at the large/tall picture with reach... you'll see what I mean.

[F0X7713]

Well, with a Guisarme and Stand Still and Knock Down and Jotunbrud and Enlarge Person and Combat Reflexes... no melee entities should be getting close to him to make a hit anyway... That's how this tank concept works: He gives a major debuff to any enemies within his reach (prone), which means that pretty much no matter what they do, they can't close without provoking a ton of attacks, any of which might kill them or stop their movement. He doesn't tank by using a shield, which doesn't really help that much anyway, he tanks by stopping the ability of other creatures to move or attack in a meaningful way. Look at page... uh, I think its 308 of DMG, at the large/tall picture with reach... you'll see what I mean.

Yeah, I understand that whole concept, I just didn't know if keeping the highest AC possible was actually a priority or not, because I haven't crunched the numbers yet (IDK what exactly she wants so that is why I am waiting) but idk when she will have what feats.

Here is what we are thinking though, we are thinking going knight 4/crusader16 as of now. Again, we haven't looked a ton into it, and idk if I will need to have to dip in fighter or anything else, but yeah, that is the route we are thinking as of now. Basically to get Bulwark of Defense and Test of Mettle. She may end up putting some more lvls in knight to bump up ToM, but idk yet. Advice, thoughts?

[Gavinfoxx]

Yeah, I understand that whole concept, I just didn't know if keeping the highest AC possible was actually a priority or not, because I haven't crunched the numbers yet (IDK what exactly she wants so that is why I am waiting) but idk when she will have what feats.

Here is what we are thinking though, we are thinking going knight 4/crusader16 as of now. Again, we haven't looked a ton into it, and idk if I will need to have to dip in fighter or anything else, but yeah, that is the route we are thinking as of now. Basically to get Bulwark of Defense and Test of Mettle. She may end up putting some more lvls in knight to bump up ToM, but idk yet. Advice, thoughts?

The problem with Knight is that Challenge really, really, really, really kind of sucks. Also the feat that does similar things, ie Goad, sucks. There is no way of MMO style aggro mechanics that actually work in 3.5e. Those two options are it, and they do not work well at all.

[F0X7713]

So maybe we should just go all in with Crusader? That actually sounds pretty good. A lot of ppl have already pointed out that the knight challenge ability isn't all that great, and that is what appealed to us at first. I may just have her go all in with Crusader then, bcuz they are BA! ^_^

[kulosle]

At low levels the lock down hasn't come online yet so don't worry about it and use a sheild. Lock down builds are the best tanks. Stack reach effects. There are three feats to increase reach and a graft, all give +5. Which totals to a reach of 25 x2 with a reach weapon, might I suggest a spiked chain for tripping, for a total of 50. That's the majority of the spaces you'll be fighting in. Get dex up and pick your favorite method of adding dex to damage, check the x to y link in my sig, I'd suggest the fierce enhancement. If you go the crusader route to get thicket of blades, you should, then you're AC won't matter as much because you'll have healing maneuvers. The only prestige class I'd recommend taking is Tactical Soldier in the Miniatures Handbook and only for two levels. The only other one I might suggest is devoted defender from defenders of faith or from sword and fist, but again only for 2 levels. If you end up with not knowing what to take go with fighter levels, because lock down builds can always use more feats. A two level dip into barbarian will get you improved trip without combat expertise which is really nice and you can still get pounce. Win win. Also take the rage variant that ups dex.

[F0X7713]

At low levels the lock down hasn't come online yet so don't worry about it and use a sheild. Lock down builds are the best tanks. Stack reach effects. There are three feats to increase reach and a graft, all give +5. Which totals to a reach of 25 x2 with a reach weapon, might I suggest a spiked chain for tripping, for a total of 50. That's the majority of the spaces you'll be fighting in. Get dex up and pick your favorite method of adding dex to damage, check the x to y link in my sig, I'd suggest the fierce enhancement. If you go the crusader route to get thicket of blades, you should, then you're AC won't matter as much because you'll have healing maneuvers. The only prestige class I'd recommend taking is Tactical Soldier in the Miniatures Handbook and only for two levels. The only other one I might suggest is devoted defender from defenders of faith or from sword and fist, but again only for 2 levels. If you end up with not knowing what to take go with fighter levels, because lock down builds can always use more feats. A two level dip into barbarian will get you improved trip without combat expertise which is really nice and you can still get pounce. Win win. Also take the rage variant that ups dex.

Wow, that is truly the best advice anyone has given thus far. Thank you, you truly are a saint ^_^

[Gavinfoxx]

Remember the best two level dip in Barbarian in this case is either Ferocity or Whirling Frenzy instead of Rage, as well as Spirit Lion Totem, and Wolf Totem.

[F0X7713]

Remember the best two level dip in Barbarian in this case is either Ferocity or Whirling Frenzy instead of Rage, as well as Spirit Lion Totem, and Wolf Totem.

I unfortunately don't know much about Barbarians, could you lead me in the right direction for that stuff? (She probably wont dip in that class bcuz I don't think it's really her style, but I could at least let her know the option is there) ^_^

[Gwendol]

A word of caution though: I suggest focusing more on generating AoO's than tripping. Tripping is good but highly situational, a lot of creatures simply can't be tripped, and others are too big/strong for this to be a reliable tactic. I certainly would advise against combat expertise/imp trip.
There are many feats that help increase the ways of generating AoO's: Mage Slayer (in combination with bulwark of defence), Hold the Line, Robilar's gambit, Close-Quarters Fighting (CWar): AoO against grapples against creatures with Improved Grapple capabilities.

Defensive Sweep (PHB2): Attack a foe who hasn't moved this round. Bab +15 req though.

Defensive Throw (CWar): Trip AoO against foe that misses you. Has some crappy feat reqs though, including Imp. unarmed strike.

Oh, and pick up a pair of Bracers of Opportunity, and the Power Attack feat. Can't really go wrong! :-)

[kulosle]

Well that's why you have Stand Still for all the monsters you simply can't trip. But if your really determined it isn't too hard to get yourself an effective size of colossal for the purposes of tripping. Knights challenge is good if you stay pure Knight, but the important thing to get from Knight is the 3 or 4th level ability that makes every square you threaten difficult terrain. This means you can never be charged and no one can take 5ft steps near you. This will generate a lot of AoO. The reason why tripping is nice is because it generates another AoO that doesn't count against your total. The only other ways I would add on getting more AoO is mage slayer, roblairs gambit or karmic strike, and Close Quarters fighting and thicket of blades of course. You really don't need defensive sweep because then the enemies don't have any intensive to stay put which is what you are trying to get them to do.
As for ACFs to think about check this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872054/Alternative_Class_Features_III) out.

And what are the Bracers of Opportunity and where can I find them? They sound like fun.

[Gavinfoxx]

I unfortunately don't know much about Barbarians, could you lead me in the right direction for that stuff? (She probably wont dip in that class bcuz I don't think it's really her style, but I could at least let her know the option is there) ^_^

Spirit Lion Totem: in Complete Champion
Wolf Totem: In Unearthed Arcana or http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures
Whirling Frenzy: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy
Ferocity: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a

[dextercorvia]

The problem with Knight is that Challenge really, really, really, really kind of sucks. Also the feat that does similar things, ie Goad, sucks. There is no way of MMO style aggro mechanics that actually work in 3.5e. Those two options are it, and they do not work well at all.

I direct you to the Confused condition.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well. I suppose you could be a Wizard casting Confusion and summoning things a way to 'tank'.... I suppose...

[Dsurion]

Well. I suppose you could be a Wizard casting Confusion and summoning things a way to 'tank'.... I suppose...I think he was referring to using something that causes Confusion on a melee attack (Headshot ambush feat, or otherwise).


A confused character’s actions are determined by rolling d% at the beginning of his turn: 01–10, attack caster with melee or ranged weapons (or close with caster if attacking is not possible); 11–20, act normally; 21–50, do nothing but babble incoherently; 51–70, flee away from caster at top possible speed; 71–100, attack nearest creature (for this purpose, a familiar counts as part of the subject’s self ). A confused character who can’t carry out the indicated action does nothing but babble incoherently. Attackers are not at any special advantage when attacking a confused character. Any confused character who is attacked automatically attacks its attackers on its next turn, as long as it is still confused when its turn comes. A confused character does not make attacks of opportunity against any creature that it is not already devoted to attacking (either because of its most recent action or because it has just been attacked).

IIRC, it came up in the Melee Debuffs Miniguide.

[dextercorvia]

Indeed.

It's hard to pull off, but if you can swing it, it is the best aggro, I know of.

[Particle_Man]

Remember the best two level dip in Barbarian in this case is either Ferocity or Whirling Frenzy instead of Rage, as well as Spirit Lion Totem, and Wolf Totem.


I unfortunately don't know much about Barbarians, could you lead me in the right direction for that stuff? (She probably wont dip in that class bcuz I don't think it's really her style, but I could at least let her know the option is there) ^_^

Due to alignment restrictions, Knight and Barbarian don't play well together, though.

[F0X7713]

Due to alignment restrictions, Knight and Barbarian don't play well together, though.

I am pretty sure she is gonna go more the crusader route, but I will know for sure tomorrow. Thanks again everyone for your help, and please!, carry on the conversations! Any and all help you can give me would be most appreciated. ^_^

[Phaederkiel]

View Post
The problem with Knight is that Challenge really, really, really, really kind of sucks. Also the feat that does similar things, ie Goad, sucks. There is no way of MMO style aggro mechanics that actually work in 3.5e. Those two options are it, and they do not work well at all.


well, I have to disagree with you. I have a 6knight / 2Fighter / 4Crusader /1 warblade in my game, and the knightly challenges, especially test of mettle rock hard. I have removed the cap that says she only can affect creatures of her cr or up to 2 levels lower, but it would probably rock anyway.

Only problem is, you need a usable Cha score, which gives you another bit of MADness.

Here is some good advice: be a mineral warrior, a Template the power of which cannot be overestimated. it gives you a) 8 dmgreduction adamantine (which we ruled as 1 plus 1/2 level - it is too good otherwise) and b) a burrow speed (which is quite nice to have, if not the reason to take the template) and c) some stat changes, which are so-so.

Anyway, the Reduction is, on low levels, quite easily worth the plus one level adjustement.

[Phaederkiel]

sorry, triple post...

[ngilop]

go Knight 4/Crusader 16. for a true 'tank'

THIS is a link to the entire build. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871346/Tome_of_Battle:_Build_Compendium?post_id=338391546 #338391546)

If you want a 'tank' in teh sense of what you see in WoW, EQ and teh like then this is the closest thing I can think of.

[Gwendol]

Well that's why you have Stand Still for all the monsters you simply can't trip. But if your really determined it isn't too hard to get yourself an effective size of colossal for the purposes of tripping. Knights challenge is good if you stay pure Knight, but the important thing to get from Knight is the 3 or 4th level ability that makes every square you threaten difficult terrain. This means you can never be charged and no one can take 5ft steps near you. This will generate a lot of AoO. The reason why tripping is nice is because it generates another AoO that doesn't count against your total. The only other ways I would add on getting more AoO is mage slayer, roblairs gambit or karmic strike, and Close Quarters fighting and thicket of blades of course. You really don't need defensive sweep because then the enemies don't have any intensive to stay put which is what you are trying to get them to do.
As for ACFs to think about check this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872054/Alternative_Class_Features_III) out.

And what are the Bracers of Opportunity and where can I find them? They sound like fun.

Right, but getting there requires some dedication, hence my advice: getting improved trip means needing expertise (due to the alignement restrictions you can't really combine barbarian and knight easily), which makes the knight even MADer. What could work is two levels of Passive Way Monk, but that will hurt both BAB and HP.

Defensive sweep really works well for this build since if enemies move they trigger AoO's and if they don't move, they still trigger AoO's. Bracers of Opportunity are found in the Magic Item Compendium and they give +2 to the AoO attack rolls, and grant 1 extra AoO 2/day.