I've discovered a way to counter Mindsight!

[Madara]

:smallsmile: While there has been much debate as to countering mindsight, and very few solutions,:smallsigh: there is no way, in fact, to completely block it. However, I have discovered a way to counter it.

LM pg 90 Brain in a Jar

Madness: Anyone targeting a Brain in the Jar with any sort of telepathic ability that makes direct contact takes 1d4 Wis damage.

Mindsight is based on telepathy, and determines int and type of creatures in range. I will assert that if a Brain in a Jar were in the radius of your telepathy, and you used mindsight, you'd take 1d4 Wis damage.


Because this is an undead with only 3HD, you could easily rebuke one and carry it around in your backpack or whatever. Plus, it comes with several other handy abilities.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Madness (Su): Anyone targeting a brain in a jar with a
thought detection, mind control, or any sort of telepathic or
psionic ability that makes direct contact with its tortured mind
takes 1d4 points of Wisdom damage.
Mindsight is a passive area of effect, it does not directly target (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#aimingASpell) anything.

[Varil]

I would contest that if Mindsight has to make direct contact with a mind to 'see' it, then it is effectively targeting that mind. It might not be strictly RAW, but it seems like a good RAI here, and a nice, conscious-clean way of giving a particularly powerful ability a drawback.

[Red_Dog]

:smallsmile: While there has been much debate as to countering mindsight, and very few solutions,:smallsigh: there is no way, in fact, to completely block it. However, I have discovered a way to counter it.

LM pg 90 Brain in a Jar

Madness: Anyone targeting a Brain in the Jar with any sort of telepathic ability that makes direct contact takes 1d4 Wis damage.

Mindsight is based on telepathy, and determines int and type of creatures in range. I will assert that if a Brain in a Jar were in the radius of your telepathy, and you used mindsight, you'd take 1d4 Wis damage.


Because this is an undead with only 3HD, you could easily rebuke one and carry it around in your backpack or whatever. Plus, it comes with several other handy abilities.

You don't technically have to rebuke one... If we are talking of "creative solutions",=> a DM may allow you to simply animate a disembodied brain. LoM has an item that illithids use to preserve freshness of a brain called a brain canister [p.67]. its 30k, but might make a cool quest on which, in order to defeat Illithids, you need to procure a brain canister, a fresh brain, and a animate dead spell. Than you would have this creature to suppress some of the Ilithid's actions.

But this is a lot more "possible plot" territory, than a piece of traveling gear ^^

[Madara]

Mindsight is based off of telepathy(su), which takes a standard action to activate, so it isn't passive. And I don't believe telepathy is an area effect.

Think of Mindsight like Power attack for your telepathy. It grants an additional ability to the swinging of your sword, but Power attack is not useable without attacking.


All rules and descriptions that apply to telepathy apply to Mindsight.

[gbprime]

I would contest that if Mindsight has to make direct contact with a mind to 'see' it, then it is effectively targeting that mind. It might not be strictly RAW, but it seems like a good RAI here, and a nice, conscious-clean way of giving a particularly powerful ability a drawback.

You don't "Target" anything with a listen check or with Scent either, you just learn something is there.

[Psyren]

You haven't addressed the "targeting" clause. Telepathy doesn't target, and Mindsight functions "as blindsense" which also doesn't target. You can discern which square creatures are in, but it explicitly does not target them. (They have total concealment, which means they cannot be targeted by RAW.)

[Madara]

I didn't want to have to quote it in whole..but


Madness(Su): Anyone targeting a brain in a jar with a thought detection, mind control, or any sort of telepathic or psionic ability that makes direct contact with its tortured mind takes 1d4 points of damage.
Bold for emphasis, it is that target of a thought detection effect. Therefore, this is valid.

[gomipile]

From the definition of "Target or Targets" in the SRD: "Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell."

Source:http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#targetorTargets

[dextercorvia]

The creature need not take any additional or special actions to gain this information; it is as obvious to mindsight as the being's race and clothing would be to eyesight.

While using your telepathy might require actions, depending on the source, using Mindsight does not. Therefore you are not targeting anything with thought detection.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Let's have a look at Mindsight's benefit entry:
A creature that has this feat can detect and pinpoint beings that are not mindless within range of its telepathy.
It doesn't have anything to do with whether your Telepathy ability is active. Telepathy is a prerequisite for the feat, and the range of your telepathy determines the range of your mindsight, but mindsight itself is not telepathy, it is a separate abiliy.

This works much like blindsense—the creature knows what square each thinking being is in, but it does not see the being, and the being still has total concealment unless the creature can see it by some other means.
If you get within a creature's blindsense range, it automatically notices you without having to activate the ability. This is now mindsight works, it's not something you have to activate, it's a passive ability to perceive creatures within a certain distance.

The creature also perceives several observable characteristics about each being detected with mindsight, including the being’s type and Intelligence score. The creature need not take any additional or special actions to gain this information; it is as obvious to mindsight as the being’s race and clothing would be to eyesight.
Mindsight enables you to perceive creatures' minds within its range, just like anyone with eyes can perceive observable characteristics. Again, it takes no special action to activate, it's a passive sensory ability and not something that must directly contact or target your opponents. Looking at a fire doesn't burn you, and using Mindsight to perceive a Brain in a Jar won't subject you to its Madness.

[Emperor Tippy]

There are plenty of counters to Mindsight.

The easiest one is to just go ethereal. Mindsight can't cross planar boundaries.

Then there is just Shapechanging into anything of the Ooze or Vermin Type. You gain the type and one of the features of those two types is Mindless. Mindsight specifically prevents you from detecting the minds of Mindless creatures.

Mindsight is nifty but it's not unbeatable.

[Psyren]

I didn't want to have to quote it in whole..but

Bold for emphasis, it is that target of a thought detection effect. Therefore, this is valid.

That would protect it from Mind Probe; Mindsight doesn't target anything.
And Mindsight doesn't actually "detect thoughts" anyway.

And even if all of this failed and it worked, 1d4 Wis damage is hardly an impassable barrier.

[Madara]

So I suppose another solution fails the RAW test because of word choice :smallsigh:

Well, it still piqued my interest, and I suppose it can fall under the reasonable house-rule restrictions on mindsight. :smallsigh:

Thanks anyway guys. PS, I don't suggest we make this another mindsight debate thread, those never end well. :smallsmile:

[gbprime]

I didn't want to have to quote it in whole..but


Madness(Su): Anyone targeting a brain in a jar with a thought detection, mind control, or any sort of telepathic or psionic ability that makes direct contact with its tortured mind takes 1d4 points of damage.

Bold for emphasis, it is that target of a thought detection effect. Therefore, this is valid.

Yeah, Mindsight doesn't detect thoughts. The word "thought" is not present in any portion of the mindsight description.

[Malachei]

I think one of the most-often overlooked aspects of Mindsight is that it requires line of effect:


This works much like blindsense


provided that it has line of effect to that creature.

Line of effect is really easy to break, so Mindsight is not as useful as it often seems to be.