Take 20...

[MesiDoomstalker]

..does it still exist in 4e? Because there are a few checks I'd rather make perfect when I have the time.

[Badgerish]

There is no express rule for it, but if you have enough time and no penalty to failure (e.g. picking a non-trapped lock) then it makes sense as an option.

What skill checks where you thinking of?

[MesiDoomstalker]

Concealing weapons when going into a place that doesn't normally allow them mainly but I'm sure there are others if I looked.

[WickerNipple]

It's been a long time since I played 3.5 so I could easily be wrong, but from my memory I don't think disguise/concealment was the sort of thing that ever would have allowed a take 20?

Regardless: no, the rule doesn't exist anymore, but I happily allow it all the time when I'm DM. But never in situations that are potentially dangerous or involve opposed checks.

[Mandrake]

I wouldn't allow for hiding a weapon check to be used with take 20, since it depends on another man's activity as well - you have to test it to know how well you hid it (you just can't go placing it thoroughly until you find a perfect place). On the other hand, I might allow a take 20 for the guy searching you, given the chance to get you butt naked.

So, basically, if you have enough time to roll a d20 at least 20 or 30 times, then it might make sense for a take 20 to occur (since you'd get it anyway after a while). But bear in mind that this is not RAW (as far as I know) and that it could be used on a minor set of skills - Knowledge skills and Physique skills are all one timers, succeed or fail, so are Social skills, which leaves you with Perception (only when searching a room, perhaps, taking the place apart) and Thievery (not advisable on traps). Ooh, and maybe Escape from Restraints (Acrobatics) if you have zounds of minutes("you can only try again if someone aids you"). Also, taking a jump, but only for practice. :)

I think that, as such, it has practically no use at all, because you can just roll around for Thievery all day long, same goes for searching. Everyone roll it a couple of times - it might even save up the time necessary, compared to "taking a 20".
Hope it helped. :smallsmile:

[Giggling Ghast]

Nowadays we call it "take 10".

[Mandrake]

Nowadays we call it "take 10".

It existed even before, up to my knowledge, with "take 20". Take 10 meant you did it once, took a 10, usual routine. Take 20 meant you did it 20 times, took a 20, using up far more time or other resources.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Nowadays we call it "take 10".


It existed even before, up to my knowledge, with "take 20". Take 10 meant you did it once, took a 10, usual routine. Take 20 meant you did it 20 times, took a 20, using up far more time or other resources.

Ya what Mandrake said. Take 20 took 20 times as long, took 20 times as much resources (if applicable) and 19 times the failure penalty (if applicable). I always thought you rolled the hiding weapon when you actually hide the weapon, not when if and when your searched but apperently I'm wrong.

How about a streetwise check to find something or someone? Assuming time is a non-factor.

[DeltaEmil]

If you can afford to 'take 20' and time and failure are non-factors, then you don't have to roll in the first place. Rolling is only for situation where there should be a chance of failure/complication.

[Tegu8788]

How about a streetwise check to find something or someone? Assuming time is a non-factor.

While not the first skill I'd think of, it would be pretty good. Streetwise gives you insight into people. See if the person is walking funny, or seems nervous or keeps a hand near an unusual bulge. You can use knowledge of the locals to grill the target to insight the target to reveal the weapons location. Knowledge of the culture would give you a better idea what kind of weapon to look for, and where on the body it might be. Possibly even for a pat down without alerting the subject. Perception and thievery checks would be helpful, with diplomacy or intimidate.

[Katana_Geldar]

Take 20 doesn't exist anymore in 4e, it does exist in it's older, smarter cousin Star Wars Saga on skill checks, but not all skills allow you to take 20.

[Mandrake]

Nice idea with Streetwise. It's close to Perception DC to search a room, so I guess it's applicable. Just note that there might be a closed number of situations in which you can get information on what you're looking for (a number of clues, informants or stuff like that), so DM can rule that you simply can't make more than "a few attempts" which, if you fail, leave you without any idea of where to go or what to do in the town, with your hands in your pockets.
Still, it's basically a knowledge/social skill check, and once you've shown what you know and talked to whomever it's worth talking to... that's it. Sure, you can go around leaving no rock unturned, but I'd at least slap that with time needed, in, like, days.


I always thought you rolled the hiding weapon when you actually hide the weapon, not when if and when your searched but apperently I'm wrong.
No, you were right! You do roll. But it's an opposed check (with a time delay between stashing and searching). Since you know where it is, you don't get to search for it, obviously. And how can you tell how well hidden it is, just based on that that one other person can't find it? What I mean to say is - you don't know when you got a twenty. With a lock, for example, you know, since you've tried and tried and, well, it either worked or you give it up since there is no way to open it (you've tried 100 times). You can't hide a dagger and re-hide it 100 times until you're "happy" how it's hidden. If you aren't in a rush, you can hide it with no risk of mistaking (take a 10) and hope that the guy searching you will also want not to risk (take a 10) and that you're better at hiding than him on searching. On the other hand, rare are situations where someone can hide stuff that well, that even if they are stripped, their clothes burned, their mouth and (pardon me) asses checked thoroughly, the item still isn't found (a take 20, if we call it like that, from the searcher).
Hope it helped.:smallsmile:

[Snowbody]

..does it still exist in 4e? Because there are a few checks I'd rather make perfect when I have the time.

When rolling dice, unless it's an effect that resolves instantly, the character is not supposed to know how well he did. (The player does, but making use of this knowledge is metagaming - a no-no.)

So, take 20 is not allowed, because it means the character knows that he did as well as he could've.

There is one exception in the DMG. At the DM's discretion, to speed up gameplay in instances where the PCs are not hurried or threatened, and they want to search an area thoroughly, the DM can give them the results as if they'd all gotten a 20.

But there are some ways to improve on the "hiding a weapon" check: hide it (roll), and then have another PC use perception to find it. If a PC with high perception can't find it, the rogue can be pretty confident it's hidden well.

[Lucy Land]

No, you were right! You do roll. But it's an opposed check (with a time delay between stashing and searching). Since you know where it is, you don't get to search for it, obviously. And how can you tell how well hidden it is, just based on that that one other person can't find it? What I mean to say is - you don't know when you got a twenty.
What if you had a friend, to make sure there are no telltale bulges or whatever? The friend could turn around while you hide the dagger, then try to find it once you give the okay. Repeat until your friend says "Yep, that's the best hiding place." I'd let a player take 20 in that circumstance.

[KillianHawkeye]

What if you had a friend, to make sure there are no telltale bulges or whatever? The friend could turn around while you hide the dagger, then try to find it once you give the okay. Repeat until your friend says "Yep, that's the best hiding place." I'd let a player take 20 in that circumstance.

I believe that ought to be covered by the rules for aiding another on a skill check. You would get a +2, I believe. (They still have that in 4e, don't they?)

[Mandrake]

No.

What if you had a friend, to make sure there are no telltale bulges or whatever? The friend could turn around while you hide the dagger, then try to find it once you give the okay. Repeat until your friend says "Yep, that's the best hiding place." I'd let a player take 20 in that circumstance.

Because you BOTH "roll" and you don't know what you "rolled", as Snowbody correctly elaborated (I didn't give it enough detail earlier, I guess). As I said, though, the fact that your friend cannot find it doesn't mean a thing - because maybe, just maybe, he rolled a 2 that time he searched, and didn't fint it. Or the next time, when you hid it well, he got a 20 (imaginary 20). To quote myself:


Since you know where it is, you don't get to search for it, obviously. And how can you tell how well hidden it is, just based on that that one other person can't find it? What I mean to say is - you don't know when you got a twenty.

The only way of it working, sort of, is you hiding it, and then letting someone (usually the dumbest and worst searcher in the party) look for it everywhere for hours (take a 20). If he can't find it, you're on safe ground. But still, you don't hide it for days, you just try, and then, if the Half-Orc Dumbface found it, after hours of searching, roll again, but see my last paragraph for that.*

If there is no risk of repeating you action, no hurry, no failure issues, as Snowbody also noticed, then you CAN do it a lot of times, and "take 20" is just the same as rolling until you get a 20. But it actually represents you trying and trying and either succeeding or giving up, but the number of times this is useful (especially in action settings) matches up to zero.

I do like Hawkeye's interpretation of it through Aid Another, and I like it a lot.:smallcool:

[Lucy Land]

I believe that ought to be covered by the rules for aiding another on a skill check. You would get a +2, I believe. (They still have that in 4e, don't they?)


Because you BOTH "roll" and you don't know what you "rolled", as Snowbody correctly elaborated (I didn't give it enough detail earlier, I guess). As I said, though, the fact that your friend cannot find it doesn't mean a thing - because maybe, just maybe, he rolled a 2 that time he searched, and didn't fint it. Or the next time, when you hid it well, he got a 20 (imaginary 20). To quote myself:
I can see your arguments -- both "this is RAW" and "it's more fun to roll" -- but I wouldn't have an issue with invoking the take 20 house rule here. I don't need players to roll for everything, and sometimes it makes more sense not to.

[kieza]

As a DM, I generally have players roll whenever they want to make a check. If they fail, but there's plenty of time, I describe their failure and eventual success in glorious detail. Instead of

"Nope, you fail again. Keep rolling."

or

"Sure, take 20 succeeds."

it becomes

"It takes an entire day of questioning passerby before you find someone who knows Angus McGuffin. You're tired, dusty and footsore, and you want nothing better than to go back to your inn and drink yourself to sleep. On the plus side, you know the layout of the city a little better now."

[Vrythas]

In response to some of the things i have found regarding the use of streetwise, i would like to share my thoughts. i recently got the D&D Rules Compendium (a VERY handy book to have around when playing), and it said that Streetwise is finding information in a discreet manner, i.e. not drawing attention to yourself while doing it. it suggested that a failed Streetwise check would allow you to continue to use it, but you would be drawing attention to yourself, so i don't know how applicable "take 20" is in that situation. however, i know that whether or not a DM follows that is up to them, and whats in the book is just a suggestion.

Vrythas.

[Kurald Galain]

..does it still exist in 4e? Because there are a few checks I'd rather make perfect when I have the time.

No, but most skill checks in 4E allow infinite retries with no adverse consequences, so you can just keep going until you happen to roll a 20.

[Mandrake]

most skill checks in 4E allow infinite retries with no adverse consequences

Which ones, except for Thievery and Perception (searching a space)?

EDIT: This isn't supposed to sound rude. :smallredface:

[LaZodiac]

I forget where its mentioned, but I believe you can only reroll on tries it you change the way the check would be done signifigently. Like, if you're trying to hear something, but fail, try closing your eyes and concentrating really hard on just using your hearing would give a reroll.

Also, I believe its mentioned, but anyone with arcane training can understand an arcane item with a short rest. The only exceptions I'd have for this is super awesome things, or cursed things (ie, they have to put some effort in to find out their awesome leather armor is cursed).

[Mandrake]

if you're trying to hear something, but fail, try closing your eyes and concentrating really hard on just using your hearing would give a reroll.

What you just described is the difference between passive perception and actively using the skill to notice something. And you can't reroll that. (There's no: I try to listen again, again, again, again, again, again. Best bet is Aid Another, which is like in the horror movies: "Can't you hear that? Listen, now!" And then you hear it, and that only goes if there is another sound stimulus, which would make you go for another check anyway (e.g. another rock tumbles from the wall).)
The point is that you can't change stuff significantly by yourself: for knowledge checks you either know a fact, or you don't; for social checks you either manage to have your way or not; for physique checks you either manage a feat of strength or agility or stamina or whatever or you don't. Which leaves us with Thievery and search checks, which are the only ones that are rerollable, including by PHB standard. Unless conditions change, which equals to a new situation, meaning a new roll (a new information appears, a new conversation arises or this one is moving into some direction, a new day of disease progress or another chance to climb the wall if you haven't died previously...).

note: you can, say, reroll jump attempts to try jump over a line in controlled contidions, like "practicing"

[Reluctance]

Which goes back to one of the essential differences between 4 and 3. In 3, the entire world is assumed to run on the same engine. (Ignoring for a moment the places where RAW leads to very bizarre places.) In 4, everything is handwaved unless there's some benefit to the suspense of a roll. Take 20, by definition, happens only when you're in a safe place and want a predictable outcome. In other words, no suspense. It's either within your capabilities or not, at the DM's discretion.

I do like the concept of T20, just to give an idea the sorts of checks - and consequently the sorts of feats - epic characters are capable of. Being able to prep a 20 for an opposed roll, though, undermines the point of the system.